New National Poll : Clark gaining, Clark leads in Red States

[BootinUp]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Democrats_Ballot_Preference_January%202004.htm

snip
January 12, 2003--As Iowa draws ever closer, there are signs of movement in the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination.
Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean remains at the top of the heap. However, his support has fallen to 21% of Democrats in the latest Rasmussen Reports tracking survey. That's Dean's lowest total yet and just four points ahead of retired General Wesley Clark. Clark has been gaining ground steadily over the past week and is now the favorite for 17% of Democrats nationally.

It is too early to tell whether these numbers truly represent a further tightening of the race or if they are merely statistical noise within the survey's margin of error. Tomorrow's numbers, posted here by noon, may help answer that question.

John Edwards, endorsed yesterday (Sunday) by the Des Moines Register has moved into third place in this latest Rasmussen Reports national survey with support from 9% of Democrats.

[aquart]

1. Clark leads among Republicans?

Well, there's a convincing reason to give him the Democratic nomination.

Please.

[BootinUp]

2. There's still some of us democrats in the South

:hi: from Georgia

[democratreformed]

5. Now, Jim, you know that us Southern Democrats don't count n/t

[SayitAintSo]

18. Yea .... I had TWO screw the South posts hurled at me yesterday

Ha ! The South can rise again for the Dems, but not with that kind of bias and attitude ...

[OKNancy]

67. The blue state Dems are a bunch of wussies

It's easy being a Dem in Boston or San Francisco, you try it in Oklahoma or Texas, or Mississippi. We Democrats in Republican hell are stronger and meaner and we want to win this thing!

I think it is only natural that red states would go for Clark...we want our vote to count for something. If Dean gets the nomination, I might as well stay home. ( I'm not because I ALWAYS VOTE) Can you say 25%? At least with Clark, there is hope.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

74. Red state Dem here also.....

n/t

[Anaxamander]

92. Hey!

Native Georgian here--native Democrat as well. :hi:

[BootinUp]

94. I'm a transplant, but Georgia is

a peach of a state.

Welcome to DU BTW.

[elperromagico]

7. Well, maybe we want to take votes away from Bush.

Guess I'm the only one with that thought.

Last time I checked, nobody won the Presidency in a two-man race with 33% of the vote.

[QC]

9. NO!!! If we do that

we might win an election ;-)

[elperromagico]

15. 260 D - 278 R

That's what the electoral vote will look like if we take the purist's "we only wanna play in blue states" approach.

If Clark can pull votes in red states like Ohio, New Hampshire, Arkansas, and Missouri, then I say "Good on you, Wes"

[Leilani]

217. Wes can compete

in West Virginia & Louisiana, too.

And it would force the Repugs to spend tome & money in the South.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

72. It's much more fun for some to whine than to actually win....

They wouldn't know what to do if THEIR candidate were to win.

[Kahuna]

10. Thanks you! Hel-lo!

Wes Can Win!

[ClarkGraham2004]

11. Elections, winning-----ring a bell?

Nah, didn't think so. GO DEAN

[lib 4 all]

16. I thought it was about electing a Democrat, not replacing one Republican

with another.

You know, when you make a deal with the devil...

[ClarkGraham2004]

17. Your conspiracies are ORIGINAL

They havent been brought up before!!!



By the way, winning votes from the other side = WINNING THE PRESIDENCY.



You care about being as ideologically pure as possible. Regardless of whether we win or not.

[BootinUp]

21. As if Dean was pure anyways

LOL

[lib 4 all]

25. who says I like Dean instead?

there are 7 other candidates in the race besides those two.
Odds are that I would support someone else completely.

[BootinUp]

29. sorry for assuming then

oops

[lib 4 all]

27. they are neither original nor conspiracies

if its been brought up by others there is a reason for it.

[The Magistrate]

52. The Chief Reason They Have Been, Sir, Is This

Overactive minds think alike.

Victory is best achieved in the national field by gaining the supoprt of some who would otherwise vote for the other side. Among other things, a candidate who has strong appeal in states that the enemy would otherwise be able to count on will force the enemy to devote resources to those venues, that could otherwise be used in ways more profitable to him.

"An election differs from a civil war only as the bloodless surrender of a force outnumbered in the field differs fom Waterloo."

[BootinUp]

63. Once again I must recognize

you for your beautiful way with words.

cheers

[meow mix]

95. ya, great post

stop that making sense stuff..
here just drink some koolaid and get with the program =)

[elperromagico]

19. Which would you rather have?

An ex-Republican who thinks like a Democrat or a Republican who doesn't think at all?

[lib 4 all]

23. how do you know how he thinks?

you only know how he wants you to think he thinks so he can get your vote. Then all bets are off. Other candidates actually have a political record to reference.

[BootinUp]

26. You must favor a centrist

Like Dean. :)

Check out Clark's liberal platform, and progressive tax plan.

[lib 4 all]

30. or his 34 years of of fighting wars and ordering bombing missions

[BootinUp]

35. A General is probably less likely

to take us to war than a chickenhawk. Clarks 10 pledges:
http://clark04.com/issues/10pledges/

snip
2. I will never ask our troops to risk the ultimate sacrifice or ask their families to pay the ultimate price of patriotism except as an absolute last resort.

As President, I will rebuild our relationships abroad and the alliances which maintain them. And I will strengthen them, so that we can solve problems together, so that the use of military force is our last resort not our first, and if America must act with force we can call on the military, financial, and moral resources of others.

[lib 4 all]

41. words are cheap, a lifetime of actions speaks a lot louder for me

Clark has ordered the bombing of tens of thousands of civilians.

After invading two countries shouldn't we be sending a different message to the world other than "hell, Bush wasn't good enough - lets make America a military state!"

After WWII the Germans purged themselves completely of their war-like ways. Shouldn't we be doing the same?

[BootinUp]

43. Not many would fault Clark for intervening in an atrocity

Some would, but a small minority.

[lib 4 all]

45. how was Kosovo different than Iraq?

both had humanitarian crisises, both had ethnic cleansing, both involved deposing a dictator. It is cognatively dissonant to support one and denounce the other. It's time to take a position on the policy once and for all.

[BootinUp]

48. I missed the reports of ethnic cleansing in progress in Iraq. n/t

[lib 4 all]

56. you must have been watching CNN then, since they were covering for Saddam

in exchange for access.

Perhaps you've caught the coverage of the tens of thousands of mass graves that have since been uncovered.

[BootinUp]

60. *in progress* vs. *history*

Seriously,

I think we both have made ourt points clear, whats say we leave it there now.

:hi:

[lib 4 all]

64. you think Saddam ended his systematic murdering spree?

Please. Get real.
Besides, Milosevic had not begun ethnic cleasing again. He was only giving off signals that he was going to. That means it was a "pre-emptive" war!

[BootinUp]

68. *I surrender*

You are certainly one of strong convictions. Lets agree on that shall we?

[The Magistrate]

69. Butcher Slobo, Fellow

Had already carried out such projects, in Croatia and Bosnia.

You would also do well to familiarize yourself somewhat with the history of Kossovo in the post-Tito era: the driving out of Albanians, and their replacement by Serbs, was already well under way. The thing impending was merely the fruition of long laid groundwork. Halting it was proper.

You will find that slogans make poor ammunition in serious discussion....

[lib 4 all]

73. no different than Saddam

Saddam never became any more of a "good guy" than Milosevic.
So what is it, are we for intervention or against it?
You can't have it both ways.

[BootinUp]

78. You never did read the 10 pledges, cause if you did

You would remember the part about force as a last resort.

After all diplomatic means at our diposal have been exhausted.

Sadaam was largely contained, that is a fact. Could he still kill and murder? of course.

Why don't you start a new thread to discuss the differences between Iraq and the former yugolavia?

[lib 4 all]

81. diplomacy was not exhausted in Kosovo either

we never even went to the UN. We did not have UN support. We did it as a unilateral NATO action, without even the support of Congress.

It was pure fiat.

[BootinUp]

85. Start a new thread.

If you want to continue this discussion please.

[The Magistrate]

96. Diplomacy Was Quite Exhausted In Kossovo, Fellow

You really need to inform yourself on the matter. Russia had served notice they would block action proposed in the U.N., but take no steps against action under NATO auspices. In the Ramboulliet negotiations, after the negotiators present had reached agreement, Butcher Slobo unilaterally altered the proposals back to his original demands, and collapsed the comference.

To speak of being for or against intervention is as foolish as it is to speak of being for or against violence: both things are simply tools, that can be used well or ill. Each should be supported where appropriate, and opposed where innappropriate.

[lib 4 all]

154. self delete

posted to wrong message

[lib 4 all]

156. Just like France served notice they would block action proposed in the UN

against Iraq?

[The Magistrate]

162. There Are Differences You Readily Ignore, Fellow

France had no material means of obstructing action in Iraq: Russia had means of materially obstructing action in Kossovo. The signifigance of the Russian acquiesence to NATO action was that it included assurances Russia would not supply advanced anti-aircraft weaponry and advisors to the Serb forces, which Butcher Slobo was expecting they would supply him. This materiel would have rendered an air campaign there very problematic. Domestic political comcerns of Slav nationalism dictated the Russian government would have to give public support to fellow Slavs, but these private assurances no material support would be given were decisive.

You are going to have to get over this business of mistaking the word for the reality it represents, if you mean to keep at this amusement.

[lib 4 all]

167. France had the means to block UN approval for war in Iraq

and they said in no uncertain terms they would invoke it.
That means diplomacy in the UN regarding Iraq was just as exhausted as it was for Kosovo.

Which blows apart the thrust of your argument.

[The Magistrate]

171. Worthless Noise, Fellow

They coulod not effect the execution of the project. Russia could effect the execution of war in Kosovo, and agreed to not do so. That, fellow, is the result of diplomacy. Butcher Slobo was immune to diplomacy, and demonstrated that amply at Ramboulliet. War is customarily resorted to where diplomacy fails: that is the way of the world, and it is not going to change.

[lib 4 all]

175. British General Jackson had to reign in Clark from starting "World War 3"

with the Russians.

[The Magistrate]

181. Hardly, Fellow

Gen. Jackson was insubordinate, and refused orders to block an unsupported company strength force of Russians from Pristina airport. Had he obeyed orders, no hostilities whatever would have resulted, either on the spot, or in any larger sphere. There would have been some diplomatic protests by Russia, that would have been ignored, and not pressed far by the Russians themselves, once reminded of their dependence on foreign credits at the time even for their remaining military power. The continual hyperventilation that there would have been a nuclear response by the Russians is amusing, but no more.

[lib 4 all]

189. once again a rather lofty dissertation from above, Fellow.

I don't so much as to assume I can predict the outcome of world events. The lenghts you are willing to go to in order to excuse General Clark's actions...

[The Magistrate]

192. Clearly, Fellow, You Need To Get Out More

Learn a little about the ways of the world....

[lib 4 all]

199. "Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us" - Jefferson

"Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us" -Thomas Jefferson

[The Magistrate]

207. Match The Tool To The Task, Dear

"It is wrong to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."

[lib 4 all]

157. Just like France served notice they would block action proposed in the UN

against Iraq?

[The Magistrate]

62. Good To Know Where You Get Your News, Sir

Political repression, and ethnic cleasing, are different concepts.

A large proportion of these gravesites are miloitary cemeteries, in which casualties from the old war with Iran rest.

The chief basis for opposition to the invasion of Iraq is this: it was a diversion of strength from the combat against those radical Islamic fundamentalists who have taken up arms to levy war against the United States. It has not decreased but increased their strength, and reduced U.S. power to defeat them. This gross strategic error was indulged in for personal and political profit by the criminals of the '00 Coup.

[lib 4 all]

71. according to the UN, "genocide" includes forced and maintained relocation

and political oppression on ethnic lines.

[The Magistrate]

101. There Are Questions Of Degree, Fellow, Behind Those Words

You ignore them at peril to the general outrage such charges rightly provoke among people at large.

Genocide is commonly understood to mean a determined attempt to exterminate a whole people; define it down to sporadic casualties, or similar minor offenses, and people will treat it like a poor driving record, and ignore the thing utterly.

In dealing with the Kurds, Hussein certainly essayed ethnic cleansing, particularly in the areas around Kirkuk and Mosul, where Kurds were expelled by force and Sunni Arabs moved in. For the last decade of his power, however, there had been no new material offenses in this regard. In dealing with the Shi'ite Arabs in the south, there were certainly pockets of near extermination, particularly among the "Marsh-Arabs", whose residence is particularly suited to guerrilla operations. Over-all, however, charges of genocide in the south are exaggeration, and by the most basic and brutal measure: the population continued to increase, rather than to decline.

Remember that a thing can be a grave wrong and crime without being the worst thing possible, and that it is perfectly all right to opposing things that are not the worst possible thing, just as it is to support things that are not the very best possible thing.

[lib 4 all]

160. whether or not that is "commonly understood", that is not the definition

And I would still argue that Saddam was engaging in just as much actual killing of ethnic minorities as Milosevic was. Particularly since we only had speculation that Milosevic may begin ethnic cleansing again.

[The Magistrate]

164. You May Still Argue Whatever You Please, Fellow

You simply cannot root any of your arguement in factual knowledge.

No speculation is involved on the assesment of Butcher Slobo's intended program for Kossovo: it was well known at the time, and long prepared.

In the question of legal definition, you fall into a common misconception concerning statute. The letter of law is not the sole determiner, for all legal terminology, like all other language, necessarily is imprecise. Judges, applying the letter of law to the fgacts of particular cases, determine what that letter actually means. Persons who claim from the letter of law that some trifle constitutes "genocide" are unable to find any action by any court that confirms their view: all cases courts have actually taken up deal with wholesale killing, close to the layman's deinition of the term. That will continue to be the case, however devoutly some raficals might wish otherwise.

You would do well to have a care for the direction your argument is tending in, fellow. Do you think a government is at liberty to massacre some portion of its citizenry, and no one else can say halt, or put an end to the practice, without doing wrong? It is rather odd to see a radical so exalt the concept of sovereignity.

[lib 4 all]

169. the same can be said of Iraq, WMD, and international law regarding the war

[The Magistrate]

173. Do You Have A Point, Fellow?

Or do you simply enjoy the chanting of the myriad names of shibboleth?

[lib 4 all]

176. the point is you cannot condemn war in Iraq without the same for Clark

in Kosovo.

[The Magistrate]

182. That,Fellow, Is Absurd

You might as well say it is impossible to like oranges without liking tomatoes: both are fruits, after all.

The devil is in the details, fellow, and you would be wise to familiarize yourself with some of them.

[lib 4 all]

190. the details look pretty parallel to me, minus Congressional approval

which was never sought for Kosovo.

[The Magistrate]

193. Odd, Fellow

You find something authoritative in the Congress that fomented Impeachment of President Clinton?

When you have displayed some mastery fo the details, ot will be time to give some heed to your commentary on them....

[lib 4 all]

196. so you want a General for president and no authority for Congress

That's called a "Dictatorship" isn't it?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

77. Do you have such low regard for all military people?

n/t

[BootinUp]

79. I think its just Generals running for Prez. :shrug:

[lib 4 all]

80. not at all, but I do believe in maintaining a seperation

between the military leadership and the executive branch.
I know, I must be crazy for that!

[BootinUp]

82. I wouldn't say you're crazy, just

that you don't know the man (General Clark) and you're basing your opinions on ignorance.

[lib 4 all]

86. I don't think you know "the man" either.

you only know what he's selling on the stump (which is completely different from what he was selling before entering the race) and what you have made him into in your own mind.

His whole life has revolved around waging war and bombing other nations. And he excelled at it enough to make it to 4 star General. This is clearly a man who loved his work.

[BootinUp]

89. Credibility gap

Anyone who thinks a General in charge of hundreds of thousands of service men and women only makes war, makes a fools argument.

I have spent months watching Clark, reading about his personel life and things he has done in the past, that have nothing to do with making war. Based on your statements, it is fair to say I know more more about him than you do.

But hey, your vote is all yours, use it as you see fit. On the other hand, stop smearing a good man who has served his country for most of his life.

[Leilani]

188. Yes

Lib 4 All is not only anti-military, but anti-semetic.

In another topic Lib 4 All said because Wes is Jewish, he would not be a good president.

To think that Dems have sunk to these new lows.

[lib 4 all]

205. pure slander

you maliciously misrepresent what I said.
I pointed out that Clark would not improve relations with the muslim world because he is half Jewish. That is just a fact of the world. Chances are good "zionist" conspiracy theories would run rampant in the Arab world with him as President at this particular time.

I said nothing about his heritage affecting whether or not he is a good president, nor do I believe it would be a factor.

I believe your purposeful mischaracterization of my words is the "new low" of which you speak.

[elperromagico]

28. And you're dodging the question.

I'll rephrase it: If Wesley Clark is the Democratic nominee, would you rather vote for him or have four more years of Bush?

That's what it comes down to.

[lib 4 all]

31. won't Nader be running?

why should I compromise my vote for the lesser of two evils?

[elperromagico]

36. Nobody's ever won the Presidency with 2% of the vote.

I know that for a fact.

A lot more than your vote is going to be compromised if Bush is reelected.

[lib 4 all]

42. no real Democrat could vote for an army General as president

We need to be sending the world a message of PEACE after the mess Bush has made, not installing a military commander!

[elperromagico]

44. Guess I'm not a real Democrat then.

I guess I should just stay home and watch Bush win in a landslide on 2 November. That is infinitely preferable in your mind, I suppose.

[BootinUp]

46. I'd laugh but that is the sad truth.

I think the more that democrats listen to Clark the less they see him as a military commander. He is a unique and highly qualified man, and would make an extraordinary President.

[lib 4 all]

51. is this what we Democrats have become?

Supporting the candidate we think best appeals to Republicans?

[BootinUp]

54. What is so hard about understanding

that truly hardcore democrats cannot win elections by themselves?

Thats about 33%, you need 51% assuming a two party race.

[lib 4 all]

59. so you will make a deal with the devil for a military state?

Will Clark be wearing his military uniform like other generals who run other countries do?

What message will we be sending the world?

[BootinUp]

65. Your distrust of the military is now well known

Many Americans including current Senators, Congressman, mothers, fathers, and past Presidents have served in the military. I do not at all share your view in this regard.

[lib 4 all]

76. I don't trust the military enough to have them run the country

Installing a General as commander-in-chief is quite different from "supporting the troops".

It is scary to me that people are even considering it, especially fellow Democrats.

[The Magistrate]

170. You Might, Fellow, Want To Review The Country's History

An initial project would be to count the number of former generals who have held the offic of President. Beginning with the first, you will find it a great proportion of the whole. You will find the number of Presidents who held officer's rank previously an overwhelming proportion of the whole. The people of the country have never shared your disinclination in this question, but seem rather to view what so discomfits you as a positive qualification.

[lib 4 all]

178. there are many things in America's history I'd rather not return to

What about you?

[The Magistrate]

185. When It Comes To Anticipating The Actions Of the Electorate, Fellow

The study of the nation's history is indispensible.

You will find that, in a democracy, any political tendency with a reputation for "Anti-Patriotism" will be, and remain, utterly without power. Most people love their country, and react angrily against those they feel despise it.

[lib 4 all]

194. so a puppet General will provide cover against accusations

of "anti-patriotism"? Is this what is in your mind?

I would just direct you to your own words "the devil is in the details".
You seem far too preoccupied with the image and perception Clark will bring. That will disintegrate fairly quickly once the campaign begins.

[OKNancy]

70. LOL

Are you real?
Get a grip man.

[Doctor_J]

132. Umm, lib

It is the gutless chickenhawk who likes to put on a uniform and prance around like he's a soldier.

President Clark's uniform is in the closet, for good. As he himself stated, "I'll put my 34 years of SERVICE TO MY COUNTRY against Mr. Bush's 3 years of failed policies any day.

[lib 4 all]

47. or better yet give the nomination to one of our fine Democratic candidates

who hasn't bombed civilians.

[BootinUp]

50. Of course this argument fails on its merits

Its politicians who decide where to send troops into action. General Clark served his country, thats yours and mine.

[lib 4 all]

53. it is generals who decide where to drop the bombs

and Clark was the one who pushed for the war in Kosovo and declared civilian TV stations as "legitimate targets".

[BootinUp]

55. I give

you are free to vote for someone else. :hi:

[HumanPatriot]

144. WHY IS IT...

that when soldiers do something good, they are responsible for their honorable service, but when soldiers do something bad, they are just serving and following order?


This argument of yours falls on its merits, which you so often tout. All Clark supporters like to prop up General Clark for all his shiny metals he got killing people, because he is such a "hero", but they turn around and shrug off his negative actions for 34 years as just following orders. Frankly, you can't have it both ways.

[BootinUp]

149. Who is to say

Clark or the soldiers did something bad? YOU?

Why should we accept your informed opinion?

Americans in general respect those that have risked their lives serving our country.

[lib 4 all]

152. Human Rights Watch said General Clark did something bad

[BootinUp]

165. Why not cite exactly what they said

Here is some info on awards both US and foreign that Clark has received:

General Wesley K. Clark USA (ret.) is the nation's most highly decorated officer since Dwight Eisenhower. Among his military decorations are the Defense Distinguished Service Medal (five awards); Distinguished Service Medal (two awards); Silver Star, Legion of Merit (four awards); Bronze Star Medal (two awards); Purple Heart; Meritorious Service Medal (two awards); Army Commendation Medal (two awards); NATO Medal for Service with NATO on Operations in Relation to Kosovo, NATO Medal for Service with NATO on Operations in Relation to the Former Republic of Yugoslavia, Legacy of Leadership and Lady Liberty(TM) Award.

His Foreign awards include the Honorary Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (United Kingdom); Commander of the Legion of Honor (France); Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany; Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau, with Swords (Netherlands); Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Italy; Grand Cross of the Medal of Military Merit (Portugal); The Commander's Cross with Star of the Order of Merit of Republic of Poland; Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; Grand Medal of Military Merit (White Band) (Spain); The Grand Cordon of the Order of Leopold (Belgium); Cross of Merit of the Minister of Defense First Class (Czech Republic); Order of Merit of the Hungarian Republic; Commander's Cross, The Silver Order of Freedom of the Republic of Slovenia; Madarski Konnik Medal (Bulgaria); Commemorative Medal of the Minister of Defense of the Slovak Republic First Class (Slovakia); First Class Order of Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (Lithuania); Order of the Cross of the Eagle (Estonia); The Skandeberg Medal (Albania); Order of Merit of Morocco; Order of Merit of Argentina; The Grade of Prince Butmir w/Ribbon and Star (Croatia) and the Military Service Cross of Canada.

[lib 4 all]

174. that whole post is a distraction from what HRW said

here is what HRW says, to answer the original question posed in the topic of glowing recitation of Clark's military "glory":

"With respect to NATO violations of international humanitarian law, Human Rights Watch was concerned about a number of cases in which NATO forces:

· conducted air attacks using cluster bombs near populated areas;
· attacked targets of questionable military legitimacy, including Serb Radio and Television, heating plants, and bridges;
· did not take adequate precautions in warning civilians of attacks;
· took insufficient precautions identifying the presence of civilians when attacking convoys and mobile targets; and
· caused excessive civilian casualties by not taking sufficient measures to verify that military targets did not have concentrations of civilians (such as at Korisa)."

from http://hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/

[BootinUp]

183. Did you know Clark wrote a book on this

You really ought to read it. Waging Modern War.

In it he recounts the political situation, military campaign, the whole thing. He wasn't the only one making decisions. Did he disagree with some parts of the strategy? yes. He thought we needed ground forces, and helicopters to take the fight more directly to the enemy forces. HE WAS OVER-RULED. In fact he was later replaced because he felt it was his duty to speak out against those in the pentagon who favored only using high altitude air-power.

In your zeal to blame Clark, you miss the fact that he did try to avoid many of the problems you and the HRW cite.

You would like to blame him for anything bad that happened and not give him credit for the good things. I think its pointless to debate it with you as you don't seem to be one to take a balanced view.

see ya.

[lib 4 all]

187. "Waging Modern War" - just what we need from the next President of the USA

:eyes:

[BootinUp]

197. You're aversion to military terminology does not change the

substance of my previous post. Clark is not a war hawk, he is a General and one of distinguished record.

try again.

[HumanPatriot]

158. First off...

Serving your country does not include serving corporate intrests. Despite a perception of serving one's country, that in itself does not make it so. Are the soldier in Iraq serving special intrests, American's elite, and Halliburton, or America. If America, what pleasent package or service have you recieved in exchange for their service, and if nothing, perhaps it isn't you that they are serving, despite their perception.


Secondly, if his actions in Vietnam were not "bad", then you have an extremly skewed worldview.


My argument can go as follows...we can give medals and honors to people who fought in Vietnam war and commend them on this effort, but when bringing up the fact that they attacked unjustly and killed innocent men defending their homeland, the response is they are just following orders. You cannot have it both ways!

[lib 4 all]

159. see what HRW says about violations against human rights laws in Kosovo

under General Clark - including unnecessary civilian casualties and bombing illegal targets.

[The Magistrate]

177. The Organization Is Mistaken, Fellow

It is a common delusion among the more extreme radicals that the powers of the earth convened in Geneva and outlawed the normal practice of war-fare, without quite noticing they had done so. They did, of course, no such thing. Signatory powers at war are required to conduct operations in a way that will minimize civilian casualties, but it is not possible to eliminate them, and when attacking targets that have both military and civilian value, to balance the direct military benefit the attack will gain against the likely hatm to civilians. The Hague Tribunal investigated allefations against NATO, and saw nothing fir for an iductment. That is the judgement of real law in the matter: the rest is jusr puffery by political naifes.

[lib 4 all]

180. oh yes, Fellow, the authoritive Magistrate has spoken... HRW is wrong!

:eyes:

[The Magistrate]

191. Argue With The Hague Tribunal, Fellow

That is where the decision was made no indictable offense had been committed. That is the authoritative statement of the law in the question.

Human Rights Warch is an excellent and useful organization, that does much good work. They are also interested in pressing a vertain interpertation of these matters, which at times colors there presentations. They are no more the embodiment of authority in these questions than the Civil Liberties Union is in that sphere.

[lib 4 all]

214. "no indictable offense"

This gives very little comfort.
And since when has a post-war tribunal ever found war crimes against the victor?

It is the victor who conducts such trials!
:eyes:

[BootinUp]

163. Ok got it...you're basically a pacifist

I'm ok with that.

[HumanPatriot]

166. How do you figure?

I oppose unjust foriegn war, and now Im a pacifist. Clark was involved in such war, and hence, I have some room to criticize.

I think its a double standard to applaud a soldier for positive contributions but dismiss negative ones based on their following of orders, so Im a pacifist? Are they personally repsonsible or not, and if so, it applies to both scenerios.

You just want to dismiss my points rather than logically argue them.


Ok, got it....you're basically illogical. I'm, ok with that.

[BootinUp]

172. Whats the point of continuing a discussion?

Here's his awards that show he is a hero, and that you have absolutely no grounds for claiming he was ***BAD***. I don't have a problem with anti-war stances, take it up with your elected official and stop being an *sshole.

General Wesley K. Clark USA (ret.) is the nation's most highly decorated officer since Dwight Eisenhower. Among his military decorations are the Defense Distinguished Service Medal (five awards); Distinguished Service Medal (two awards); Silver Star, Legion of Merit (four awards); Bronze Star Medal (two awards); Purple Heart; Meritorious Service Medal (two awards); Army Commendation Medal (two awards); NATO Medal for Service with NATO on Operations in Relation to Kosovo, NATO Medal for Service with NATO on Operations in Relation to the Former Republic of Yugoslavia, Legacy of Leadership and Lady Liberty(TM) Award.

His Foreign awards include the Honorary Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (United Kingdom); Commander of the Legion of Honor (France); Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany; Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau, with Swords (Netherlands); Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Italy; Grand Cross of the Medal of Military Merit (Portugal); The Commander's Cross with Star of the Order of Merit of Republic of Poland; Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; Grand Medal of Military Merit (White Band) (Spain); The Grand Cordon of the Order of Leopold (Belgium); Cross of Merit of the Minister of Defense First Class (Czech Republic); Order of Merit of the Hungarian Republic; Commander's Cross, The Silver Order of Freedom of the Republic of Slovenia; Madarski Konnik Medal (Bulgaria); Commemorative Medal of the Minister of Defense of the Slovak Republic First Class (Slovakia); First Class Order of Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (Lithuania); Order of the Cross of the Eagle (Estonia); The Skandeberg Medal (Albania); Order of Merit of Morocco; Order of Merit of Argentina; The Grade of Prince Butmir w/Ribbon and Star (Croatia) and the Military Service Cross of Canada.

[HumanPatriot]

179. His awards are absolutely irrelevant...

...if his transgression are dismissed because he was following orders. Following orders releases personal responsibility from the actor. Please refer to divine providence in theology for a viable example of such philosophy, in which all good and bad deeds are in fact not the responsible actions of the human subject.


Or....he really is a "hero" and a murderer at the same time if he is personal responsible for his actions.


Please outline the position you have above. If you have a differnent one, please try to most miserable try to defend such, which is an impossible task.

As far as:

"and that you have absolutely no grounds for claiming he was ***BAD***."

You are right...what is "bad" and "good" anyway? I am Beyond Good and Evil, if you follow. :) But despite such, he still, factually participated in an unjust foriegn occupation and war against innocent humans, in such wars as Vietnam. Hence, try to defend such actions and reconcile such with the notion that he is a "hero". Was he or was he not personally responsible for such actions?


And being anti-unjust war is not the same as being anti-war. Are you anti-war cause you oppose Iraq intervention (I hope you do)? Easy with your labels...they are intellectually castrating.

[BootinUp]

186. Your world doesn't exist.

In your perfect world, the soldiers would run our foreign policy. Good Luck.

[The Magistrate]

57. Gen. Clark Did Excellent Work In Kossovo

"Cognitive Dissonance" is an excellent buzz-word, but will not impose much on anyone who actually thinks, or possesses much knowledge of the circumstances.

[lib 4 all]

61. and if it was Clark who had ordered the Iraq invasion (which he supported)

then you would be calling that "Excellent Work" too.

[The Magistrate]

66. You Are New Here, Sir

And ploughing throroughly worked ground.

The invasion of Iraq was damned sloppy work, and would have been no matter who ordered it. It was uneccessary, and it is a basic axiom of strategy that no effort that does not serve to gain the objective should be undertaken. The objective is destruction of the radical Islamic fundamentalists who have taken up arms to levy war against the United States: invading Iraq did nothing to advance this, but rather the opposite.

[lib 4 all]

83. in other words I have no right to voice my opinion?

I see, it has been decided for me.

[Melinda]

91. I don't see that insinuation...

but rather understand the Magistrate to say this topic has been thoroughly researched and discussed here at DU in the past. It's not new to many of us, but we shouldn't dismiss others interest and desire to discuss these issues simply because we have discussed them a priori.

You are most welcome here; thanks for joining us. :hi:

[lib 4 all]

215. perhaps, but not everyone knows the history nor has everyone had their say

as dkf's post below shows.
It is important that everyone considering Clark knows the full history of Kosovo, not just the version Human Rights Watch has called "white-washed".

[dkf]

213. Thank you lib 4 all.

I don't know much about Kosovo so I found your conversation very enlightening.

You've given me a lot to think about.

[bhunt70]

90. "no real Democrat could vote for an army General as president"

Thats the dumbest piece of shit post I've heard all day.

[QC]

131. Yep, and it's precisely that smug, sanctimonious attitude

that alienates so many.

If some had their way, "real Democrats" would consist of no more than 10% of the party. They would never win an election again, but oh, think of the fun they could have sitting around contemplating their own moral splendor!

[joefree1]

34. Absolutely I would vote for Clark, how about you?

If Howard Dean is the Democratic nominee, would you rather vote for him or have four more years of Bush?

That's what it comes down to.


Images from Dean Rocks the House of Blues, Hollywood
From wtmusic http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=919849
From Joefree1 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=921300

[elperromagico]

37. It's ABB for me.

I like Howard Dean, and I'd vote for him in a heartbeat if he were the nominee. I DO NOT WANT BUSH REELECTED.

[bhunt70]

93. Go Dean!

or whoever else gets the nomination.

[Jerseycoa]

97. Never a Republican

Clark was never a Republican, no matter how many times it is posted here. He was nonpartisan in the military, independent in Arkansas, and then registered Democrat. Give proof he was ever a member of the GOP or zip it up.

[elperromagico]

200. Jesus Christ, calm down.

I like Clark, and was making a point.

If you're going to attack your fellow Democrats when they're in the midst of making a pro-Clark point (namely that someone who voted Republican in the past, but expresses our shared Democratic values is infinitely preferable to Bush), then perhaps you're the one who should consider zipping it up.

Other than that, I think you're a great person. :)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

75. Aww don't go calling Dean a Republican. We know his record makes him

look like one BUT he's trying awful hard to look like a Democrat.

[formernaderite]

87. LOL

If it walks like a duck, and attracts other ducks.....

[neverforget]

99. Winning equals getting the most votes. The more Republicans that

vote for a Democrat the better. Unless you want them to vote Republican?

[meow mix]

13. he so amazing

who couldnt love him? only tin-hat "clarks a conspiracy" dems

[John_H]

40. Clark leads in states we'll NEED to win

Like MO, WV, AK etc. You know places with not too many internet savvy college kids but with lots of Dem leaning voters and eletoral votes that count as much as any other.

It's this kind of, frankly, elitist and dim-bulb attitude which proves Dean can't win. When a Dean supporter writes off swing states--some of which we can't win without as proven in 2000-- as "Republican," it validates everything "establishment" Dems say about Dean and his campaign.

[helleborient]

142. Don't we need to win Iowa?

Gore won by the narrowest of margins there.

[stickdog]

147. And what about NH where Gore lost by the narrowest of margins? (nt)

[funky_bug]

58. That's odd

I didn't know that Republicans didn't get to vote this year. Shoot. That makes a WORLD of difference.

[Barbara917]

84. Yes, this is a very convincing reason

As I recall it is how Reagan won in a lanslide. He convinced Democrats to vote for him.

[Dover]

135. READ MORE ABOUT THIS POLLING CO. Rasmussen Reports

http://www.dialtek.com/about_us/staff_bios.asp

I haven't even begun to dig on this one...but here's a taste:

Scott Rasmussen - President, ScottPolls.com - DIALTEK Board of Advisors: Political and Media Project Analyst
Scott W. Rasmussen is an independent public opinion pollster, broadcast commentator, research analyst, and writer. His new book, A Better Deal: Social Security Choice, provides a timely overview of public attitudes towards the nation's retirement program while explaining the underlying public support for reform.

Scott is a regularly featured guest analyst on many Fox News Channel programs including the top-rated O'Reilly Factor and the morning show, Fox and Friends. Scott and his research have also been featured on CNN, Good Morning America, the Today Show, Hardball, NBC Radio, the Business News Network, and on local broadcast outlets in just about every media market in the nation. In print, his work has graced the front pages of USA Today, the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Boston Globe, Wall Street Journal, Christian Science Monitor and scores of other newspapers.

Working with noted economist Larry Kudlow, Rasmussen provides a daily Economic Intelligence Briefing reporting on the attitudes of consumers, investors, and workers. Beginning February 1, 2002, he will also be providing a daily Political Intelligence Briefing. DIALTEK is the primary data collection provider for all projects that Scott undertakes.

Rasmussen believes that the key to opinion research is asking the right questions and is constantly looking for ways to examine old issues. Confirming this approach on a poll about the booming economy, the Wall Street Journal said, "Rasmussen had the moxie to pose a question few DC pollsters would dare ask."

Scott has conducted groundbreaking research comparing the attitudes of government employees to private sector workers. On a wide variety of issues, these separate groups of workers have fundamentally different views that were never previously documented. He has also conducted unprecedented research comparing the views of investors to non-investors. His documentation of the Investor Class demographic has attracted widespread coverage and comment.

Rasmussen began polling on his own in 1988 and, two years later, published an article in the Wall Street Journal accurately forecasting the current debate over Social Security reform. The article was written at a time when the thought of making any changes in the Social Security system was deemed ridiculous by the conventional wisdom. In the years since, he has been an industry pioneer developing automated telephone survey techniques that provide reliable data at a fraction of the cost required for traditional operator-assisted surveys.

Scott did his first radio commercial at age 7, worked in every aspect of broadcasting through his college days, and then served as an announcer for the Hartford Whalers hockey team (now the Carolina Hurricanes). When hockey's Living Legend Gordie Howe turned 50 while still playing professional hockey, Scott shared the spotlight at center ice with his childhood idol by serving as Master of Ceremonies.

Scott and his father later founded ESPN, the cable television sports network. The idea for the network was born on August 16, 1978 and the company was launched with a cash advance on a credit card. Just over a year later, on September 7, 1979, ESPN made its debut. Along the way, the Rasmussens obtained a commitment for more than $100 million in financing from Getty Oil, signed Anheuser-Bush to the largest advertising contract in cable history, obtained the rights to more NCAA sporting events than any firm in history, and built the foundation for the world's greatest sports broadcasting team. Today, ESPN is considered the most valuable brand name owned by Disney.

[Dover]

137. ..

dupe

[dkf]

212. "Clark leads among Republicans?"

How'd I know that was coming.

Too obvious to pass up.

[in_cog_ni_to]

3. Go, Wes!

Great news. Thanks for the post!

[dae]

4. That is one helluva horse race goin' on in Iowa.

[mouse7]

6. Where did Edwards come from?

It's too early for the Des Moines Register endorsement to have had any effect in any polling data. So Edwards move came basically out of nowhere.

Very interesting.

[BootinUp]

8. Only thing I can figure

Is Edwards got a heckofa bounce from that previous televised debate. He was pretty good there.

[Kahuna]

12. Edwards may be the Clinton-like "sleeper" in this race..

If he is, he deserves it. He has remained positive and on message.

[GainesT1958]

14. A buddy of mine called me Thursday night...

He's volunteering with John Edwards' campaign in Des Moines (he came from East Tennessee to help--now THAT'S dedication!) He told me that some "major surprises" favorable to Sen. Edwards would "start to show up in the next few days". I told him "Lee, they're gonna have to; otherwise John looks to be going down fast." Well, maybe these two items are his "major surprises"; you never know!:eyes:

As for General Clark, I'm not a bit "surprised". He's gaining momentum virtually every day; he's catching up to the Doctor in every state where the two are competing actively, especially in N.H., and people are starting to realize that HE offers us not just the best shot at beating Dub next fall, but a chance to elect an extraordinary leader who could make important, progressive, long-term changes in direction for this country, and for its relationships in the world.

Personally, the thought of that has been heart-warming, indeed, in this last cold week!:D

B-)

[mouse7]

49. As long as "surprise" something other than free "Hootie" concerts n/t

[Melinda]

20. Actually Dean rose in this poll.

Rasmussen (a Faux news favorite) has been tracking these numbers since last December, and Dean has never pulled more than 26% in one of their polls. A few days ago they had Dean at 20%, and Clark at 11%; Clark did get a nice kick in this poll, but I still consider the source. Here's a link for those who want to get a more rounded view of all national and state polls:

http://www.davidwissing.com/demnationalpolls.html

[BootinUp]

22. my poll is better than yours!

Seriously, I think you make a good point, we should take the same poll and look at trends.

[Melinda]

39. lol, you're cute Jim. :-)

Especially when you are agreeing with me, heehee. Thanks for the smile :) - you made my morning. :hi:

[jmaier]

24. Gov Dean

leads in fundraising, has a significant edge in MAJOR endorsements, has allegedly the largest, hardworking grassroots organization, etc. It looks like despite those many advantages, he still has a long way to go to win over a sizeable portion of the Democratic primary voters.

It's all pretty interesting.

[w4rma]

33. But Dean is MUCH farther along than President Clinton was at this point in

1992.

[jmaier]

38. It's true

and I think Gov Dean is a pretty strong candidate but Clinton was fighting personal morality attacks, didn't have the big fundraising edge and was endorsed by the person who most recently won more democratic Presidential votes than any other candidate in recent history (Gore).

I just think it is interesting that those significant advantages, while helping Dean, haven't really shut the door, yet. It indicates to me that his campaign, while strong, still has a ways to go in bring the democratic base into his tent. There is a great deal of uncertainty in this race still.

[helleborient]

32. Dean's support was double Clark's in the Newsweek poll this weekend

24-12...so looks like Dean's support is pretty constant, in the low 20's, but the polls can't agree on Clark's support.

[Jack_Dawson]

98. Dean who's been running for two years?

That guy?

Face it Clark's catching your guy. Roll out all the polls you want - fact is Dean SHOULD be leading...Clark's only been at this for 3 1/2 months.

[helleborient]

103. Yes...running for 2 years is good campaign strategy....

Maybe better strategy than avoiding debates.

[Jack_Dawson]

104. Maybe - unless you peak before the primaries

Doh!

[helleborient]

106. Yep, that peak where Dean is going up now and Clark down in NH...

Whose peak?

[Jack_Dawson]

109. The peak where Dean had a 20+ point lead on everybody in NH

Where, oh where, did it go?

[helleborient]

112. Clark would love a 17 point lead somwhere, wouldn't he?

Unfortunately, he's nowhere close to that anywhere...

In fact, where is he leading? I saw one poll with a 1 point lead in Oklahoma, his neighboring state...oh, and he's close in another neighboring state, Tennessee.

[Jack_Dawson]

114. SC, Arizona, Oklahoma

Not bad for a guy who just jumped into the race...

[helleborient]

116. You've got the links handy to prove those leads I assume...

I've only seen a lead in Oklahoma.

[Jack_Dawson]

119. USA Today

- but I'm at work. Perhaps YOU have the time to look it up?

[helleborient]

124. I thought it was hot air...and no proof

I look at a lot of polls...and I've only found one Oklahoma poll with Clark leading

I assumed you could back up your claim...with something I've missed.

[Jack_Dawson]

127. Whatever Dude...sorry for having a job

It's pretty common knowledge Clark is tied for first in SC and AZ, and leading in Oklahoma. Sorry I don't have the amount of free time you do to hunt down every single link I've come across.

[helleborient]

139. Common knowledge according to ARG...Clark behind in SC, AZ, and OK

Here it is:

http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/

Arizona - Dean 26 Clark 15

Oklahoma - Dean 24 Clark 21

South Carolina - Dean 16 Sharpton 12 Clark 12 Edwards 11


So, where's that common knowledge come from? Thin air??

[Melinda]

141. The data doesnt quite support that, Jack. :-)

It depends on the poll:

http://www.davidwissing.com/demstatepolls.html

All the info at one handy dandy link! :hi:

[On the Road]

88. This is Important, BUT . . .

I want to see the results for the swing states that are winnable by the Democratic nominee.

I think it's great that Clark polls well in TX, but what will win the election is how he polls in potential pickup states like OH, MO, WV, NH, AR, adn FL* as well as states that might be lost such as PA, IL, NM, etc.

I really don't know. And it makes a difference. I'm a Dean supporter because I think he's the best campaigner and appeals to independents. But I want to win in November.

* Not disputing Gore's victory. Just doing the electoral math.

[helleborient]

108. And how is Clark doing in the swing state of Iowa???

Al Gore won Iowa by a very very very narrow margin.

[Printer70]

100. Title should be: Clark mired in second

...still can't top Dean.

[Jack_Dawson]

102. "Mired"??? __He just entered the race!

And he's catching Dean, who's been at this for two years. Hearing the footsteps?

:bounce:

[helleborient]

105. He's falling back in NH...lost 2 pts. in 2 days...the steps are fading...

Apparently.

[Jack_Dawson]

107. All within the MOE

Next...

[helleborient]

110. Oh..I thought you said Clark rising, now the MOE defense when you're wrong

Yep, good spin there.

[Jack_Dawson]

115. Don't be frightened...I know it's hard

You thought it was a shoo-in and now it's not and Dean supporters are gripping hard.

[helleborient]

118. No one thought Dean was a shoo-in when he began...

And he didn't have to depend on the support of entrenched Clintonites to get his campaign started.

It started with the grassroots...ummm...what percent of Gen. Clark's fundraising comes from $2,000 contributors?

[Jack_Dawson]

121. I'm not his accountant

But I know many many people who have never donated a nickel to anyone who are on board with Clark.

[helleborient]

126. I can help from 3rd quarter - 31% $2,000 donors, Dean - 13% 2,000 donors

Also - Dean - 56% of his donations from those giving under $200 and Clark 13% of under $200 donors.

If you want to look a bit more, it's at the respected nonpartiasan

http://opensecrets.org

[Jack_Dawson]

130. And?

Who cares? I want to win I really don't care who donates to Clark.

Besides, wouldn't it stand to reason that someone running for two years would have built up more grassroots support than someone who jumped in three months ago?

[helleborient]

136. I want to win as well and prove we can have a government of the people...

Not of money, special interests, and political operatives.

In case you don't understand, the appeal of Howard Dean includes that he has been consistently underestimated yet so far always done better than expected - why should we expect less in the general election?

For Clark, we get continual arguments that he can somehow do a better job at the general election when he is behind in nearly every single state, avoiding debates, avoiding Iowa and trailing in fundraising.

Why should we assume that amounts to a winner?

Remember...Bill Clinton didn't have to serve in the military to win big twice.

[Jack_Dawson]

150. Your argument is flawed on so many levels

And my time is so limited I don't even know where to begin. But suffice it to say, I'm not worried about Clark. Remember, it's all about beating Bush. You think Dean can, I think Clark can.

[helleborient]

153. Your posts are just wrong...I don't make up polls that don't exist (n/t)

[Jack_Dawson]

198. Try this poll...

http://surveyusa.com/2004_Elections/AZ040112demprimary.pdf

[helleborient]

201. Yes, it shows Clark behind in Arizona..you made up he was leading...

Credibility going downhill on the posts made here.

[BootinUp]

203. You must have missed Clark 39% , Dean 32% in AZ.

[Jack_Dawson]

206. What part of Clark 39%, _Dean 32% are you not comprehending?

Next...

[Printer70]

210. LOL @ Arizona

Oh yeah...that's an important early state primary. By the time Dean wins NH and Iowa, the undecided will shift in his column and this race will be over. Clark will head back to the military industrial complex and that'll be the end of that.

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

117. Not to mention Edwards' new found momentum

Edwards doing well in Iowa and picking up steam heading into South Carolina could very well present a problem for the General.

[helleborient]

120. Edwards is doing quite well...and speaking well!

I give him credit for that...he looked very good at the Linn Co. event I watched Saturday night.

[NV1962]

111. Seems to confirm a trend: Clark is gaining strength

I'm not sure if I should read Dean's drop as a real dent in his support base though, and assuming this trend is picked up by other polls. Instead, I believe that Clark is gaining a bunch, which statistically is reflected in the "share" of others, with a natural bigger (more noticeable) influence on the result for Dean. Natural, in light of Dean's impressive share.

Until now, Clark had a big "reservoir" of people who stated that they hadn't heard enough about him to form an opinion; his campaign seems to be effective in providing that information, judging by the dwindling "don't knowers."

So, I don't think this is really "bad news" specifically for Dean - it's rather very encouraging news for Clark.

But yes, I think it's clear the race is tightening.

Edited for clarity

[helleborient]

113. The softness of support for Clark in New Hampshire is a concern for him

His 19 point support includes only 63% strong support according to ARG

Dean's 36 point support includes 89% strong support.

And Clark has lost 2 points over the weekend where he is campaigning most intensely...in NH. Strong rise!

[BootinUp]

122. Sure, thats why he is campaigning there

When did you predict Clark would be in second place in NH? Maybe we should search the archives unless you remember?

Bill Schneider at CNN needs help from a good poll spinner...just a thought.

[helleborient]

133. Clark entered the race with operatives and no specific positions...

But predictions he would do well because of his connections...

Here's one of the articles from his entry:

"He has assembled a team of campaign operatives that includes veterans of the campaigns of former President Clinton and Vice President Al Gore, and said he would outline more specific positions in speeches "in the coming weeks."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/17/elec04.prez.clark/

Dean started with no major frontpage news whatsoever.

[BootinUp]

138. You avoided the question *surprise*

I take nothing away from Dean's campaigning ability. For some reason you want to detract from Clark's. Go figure.

Dean has had more media coverage than the rest of the candidates combined since Clark go into the race (IMHO).

[helleborient]

140. I'm not detracting from Clark's campaigning...I'm complaining about

Avoidance of debates...I like to attack Republicans on that...Wesley Clark is taking away our advantage there.

And complaining about "vapor" polls reported by Clark's supporters. The actual reports do not support much of the posturing.

I thought Clark would be Dean's strongest opponent from the point he entered the race...so him being a strong challenger is no surprise to me.

I also question when someone has admittedly supported Republicans as recently as 10 years back and has NEVER been elected to an office as a Democrat if they are the best representation of the Democratic Party.

I also question why Clark did not even bother to switch his party registration from Independent to Democrat until AFTER he entered the race. The reason was that he didn't get around to it???

I could go on but I won't...he is doing fine, but Dean will win.

[Jack_Dawson]

123. Keep telling yourself that

Dude was in 5th place a few weeks ago. Now he's in 2nd. Not bad, huh?

[helleborient]

129. Yep, not bad when the other candidates aren't there...

We'll see what happens when Kerry, Edwards, and Dean move their campaigns to NH.

[BootinUp]

125. What Dean supporter predicted Clark to be in second in NH?

by now.


please speak up we want to give you credit. :)

[helleborient]

143. I didn't predict the Kerry implosion being so severe..would have picked

Clark as third after Kerry.

[BootinUp]

146. I'm tellin ya

you have missed your calling! You never miss a beat minimizing Clark.

cheers to a great DU gladiator :toast:

[helleborient]

155. I don't want an ex-Republican militarist president...that's it...

And I'm working to avoid it.

And I NEVER appreciate made up polls and posting about things that don't exist in print. I've seen a lot of that from Clark supporters.

I'll still vote for Clark over Bush if he's the nominee.

[BootinUp]

168. So we're both ABB

I look forward to more post wars ahead, see I think Dean is about the least trustworthy of all the democratic candidates.

[helleborient]

202. Yes, we are...and supporters of Bush, Sr. are more trustworthy?

We disagree.

[BootinUp]

204. read again please. (democratic candidates)

[Dover]

128. Just a little info about Rasmussen Reports

Scott Rasmussen - President, ScottPolls.com - DIALTEK Board of Advisors: Political and Media Project Analyst
Scott W. Rasmussen is an independent public opinion pollster, broadcast commentator, research analyst, and writer. His new book, A Better Deal: Social Security Choice, provides a timely overview of public attitudes towards the nation's retirement program while explaining the underlying public support for reform.

Scott is a regularly featured guest analyst on many Fox News Channel programs including the top-rated O'Reilly Factor and the morning show, Fox and Friends. Scott and his research have also been featured on CNN, Good Morning America, the Today Show, Hardball, NBC Radio, the Business News Network, and on local broadcast outlets in just about every media market in the nation. In print, his work has graced the front pages of USA Today, the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Boston Globe, Wall Street Journal, Christian Science Monitor and scores of other newspapers.

Working with noted economist Larry Kudlow, Rasmussen provides a daily Economic Intelligence Briefing reporting on the attitudes of consumers, investors, and workers. Beginning February 1, 2002, he will also be providing a daily Political Intelligence Briefing. DIALTEK is the primary data collection provider for all projects that Scott undertakes.

Rasmussen believes that the key to opinion research is asking the right questions and is constantly looking for ways to examine old issues. Confirming this approach on a poll about the booming economy, the Wall Street Journal said, "Rasmussen had the moxie to pose a question few DC pollsters would dare ask."

Scott has conducted groundbreaking research comparing the attitudes of government employees to private sector workers. On a wide variety of issues, these separate groups of workers have fundamentally different views that were never previously documented. He has also conducted unprecedented research comparing the views of investors to non-investors. His documentation of the Investor Class demographic has attracted widespread coverage and comment.

Rasmussen began polling on his own in 1988 and, two years later, published an article in the Wall Street Journal accurately forecasting the current debate over Social Security reform. The article was written at a time when the thought of making any changes in the Social Security system was deemed ridiculous by the conventional wisdom. In the years since, he has been an industry pioneer developing automated telephone survey techniques that provide reliable data at a fraction of the cost required for traditional operator-assisted surveys.

Scott did his first radio commercial at age 7, worked in every aspect of broadcasting through his college days, and then served as an announcer for the Hartford Whalers hockey team (now the Carolina Hurricanes). When hockey's Living Legend Gordie Howe turned 50 while still playing professional hockey, Scott shared the spotlight at center ice with his childhood idol by serving as Master of Ceremonies.

Scott and his father later founded ESPN, the cable television sports network. The idea for the network was born on August 16, 1978 and the company was launched with a cash advance on a credit card. Just over a year later, on September 7, 1979, ESPN made its debut. Along the way, the Rasmussens obtained a commitment for more than $100 million in financing from Getty Oil, signed Anheuser-Bush to the largest advertising contract in cable history, obtained the rights to more NCAA sporting events than any firm in history, and built the foundation for the world's greatest sports broadcasting team. Today, ESPN is considered the most valuable brand name owned by Disney.


http://www.dialtek.com/about_us/staff_bios.asp

[stickdog]

148. Yes, this a Repuke poll, through & through.

Why doesn't it surprise me that it's hyping Clark & Edwards?

[kayleybeth]

216. Just so ya know, stickdog...

A few days ago, Dean looked much healthier in this particular repuke poll and several DU Dean supporters were shouting it from the rooftop.

I agree with you though, Rasmussen polls should be taken very lightly.

[meow mix]

134. yay! =)

clark still comin on stong.
and scooping up a lot of dis-illusioned dean supporters heehee

[stickdog]

145. 1) Dean, 2) Guy who doesn't attack Dean, 3) Guy who doesn't attack Dean

Notice the trend Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman & Sharpton?

[kayleybeth]

151. I'm all for good news about Wes Clark!

but Rasmussen polls should be taken with a grain of salt, IMO. I'm reserving my optimism for now.

[Jack_Dawson]

161. You and me both, Kayley

But Dean supporters have grown increasingly afraid of The General.

[Clark4VotingRights]

208. I don't trust any of the polls

But it's nice that Clark is no longer invisible to the media.

[Lost and Confused]

184. Good Reason to Vote for him

He is the most Republican of the Democratic field. Bad news, Bush is a better Republican than Clark. We must defend the Blue states and win just one Red. We defend by picking a Liberal to hold the Blue and work hard in NH, FL, Arkansas, Missouri, OH to turn just one.

[Qutzupalotl]

195. Wrong.

Lieberman is the most Republican. Clark is to the left of Dean and to the right of Kucinich. He can deliver the red states to the blue column and win in a landslide.

[BootinUp]

209. kick

:kick:

[snyttri]

211. Might confirm last week's strong Clark poll.