What Is Dean's Position On School Of The Americas?

[KittyWampus]

Anyone know?

Found out that Edwards has been asked and he professed ignorance at the time.

This is a real winning issue for Democrats in general... let me tell you.

It's not like we are tarred by the GOP as weak on defense or anything.

[stickdog]

1. What does the SOA have to do with defense?

The SOA exports terror.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goobergunch]

5. SOA = WHISC (n/t)

[jonnyblitz]

6. it just changed its name

click on my sigline link and you get educated.

[KittyWampus]

8. There's No Proof There, Just Hyperbolic Crap

[madison]

7. Yes...

the reputation of the School of the Americas became so horrible that it has been renamed and is now the “Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.”

[RC]

9. Whadis?

What is the SOA?

The School of the Americas (SOA), in 2001 renamed the “Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation,” is a combat training school for Latin American soldiers, located at Fort Benning, Georgia.
>snip<
On January 17, 2001 the School of the Americas was replaced by the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation. The new military training school is the continuation of the SOA under a new name. It is a new name, but the same shame.


http://www.soaw.org/new/type.php?type=8

[mike_c]

19. it changed it's name, but nothing else....

"get educated?"

Stop trying to argue with smoke and mirrors, my friend.

[RC]

4. That is the point;

What does it have to do with anyones defense?

[madison]

3. I would assume...

I would assume all of the Democratic candidates are against torture and assassination of legally-elected leaders, even if they govern countries in Latin America or South America.

[oasis]

10. We won't find out anytime soon. Trippi's put a gag order on Dean.

[xultar]

11. Yup, Trippi put a plug in that one quick. n/t

[Tinoire]

12. Vague- All I found. Maybe a Dean supporter has more

From: Tom S.

Howard Dean, 4/17/03, at a private home in Manchester, NH


Question:
The US has trained and or supplied many of our current enemies – for example, Osama, Saddam .... and we continue to have a program of training terrorists at the School for the Americas. Will you close the SOA?

Answer(paraphrase): I will have to consult with the CIA and find out exactly what is going on there. If it is as we have all heard, a place where we train terrorists to overthrow elected governments in other countries, then yes, absolutely I will close it.

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=67

[ulysses]

13. I haven't particularly heard, myself.

Those of us who do support him (I'm guessing that doesn't include you, Tinoire :) ) should press him for a position. SOA/WHISC is unsupportable.

[Tinoire]

15. I'm so totally Kucinich to the bitter end lol

;) but there are several things I like about Dean. I'm not against him- just not for him yet because Dk is too much my ideal.

If I find anything more encouraging about Dean's position, I'll post it.

http://www.birddogger.org/ is an excellent site and to quote Maxanne:

They've done an excellent job of forcing all candidates to address a variety of issues. Thanks to birdoggers and homeless activists, Howard Dean signed on to the National Housing Trust. For anyone who thinks they have no voice - think again. This is is a low cost, extremely effective tool.

Arnie Alpert of the NH AFSC has been teaching high school kids how to birdog. What a great introduction to the world of politics, and making an impact. There isn't a candidate out there that will refuse to answer a high school kid's question. I saw a kid shock the hell out of Kerry last spring with a question about nuclear disarmement.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=87542#93395

Peace

[ulysses]

16. understood on DK

And please, post anything you find, not just anything that's encouraging. I support Dean with the understanding that I'll get to spend a Dean administration trying to hold his feet to the fire, and if this is an issue, then so be it.

[ozone_man]

14. That sounds good to me.

What does Clark have to say about SOA (WHISC), or is he one of the board members? Certainly his ties with National Endowment for Democracy would fit well.

[Tinoire]

18. Clark supports it unequivocally

I don't think he's on its board (Otto Reich is though) but he was the commandant there in the latter half of the 90's
http://www.counterpunch.org/reich0503.html
====


"Kirk S." of Concord, NH asked Gen. Clark at Concord High School on January 8 about his continued support of the School of the Americas (SOA)

Kirk asked, "What can we do to reform the school?"

Clark responded, "It's not true that the school is connected to human rights abuses. Those things happened 25 years ago and nothing like that has happened since. You're uninformed."

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=151

===

Question #1: A recent newspaper story says that you are a big booster of the controversial School of the Americas, the school that trained and graduated brutal dictators like Manuel Noriega and dictators from Haiti, Argentina and Chile. This is also the school that trained Salvadoran soldiers that executed six Jesuit priests, their cook and her daughter. Is it true that you delivered a commencement speech there a few years ago. And you said in testimony to Congress, There is nothing going on in these institutions that you in the United States Congress wouldn't be extraordinarily proud of?

General Clark: That's exactly right. That's exactly what I said. And I'll tell you why. Because, from the time the School of the Americas got started, it's been changed. A lot. We screen every student who goes there. And they are taught human rights instruction in every class. And it's not a school that's teaching any of the things that those people do. People that do things that are wrong, they are graduates of the School of the Americas, should be prosecuted. And many of them were. And Manuel Noriega is in jail thanks to the USA. But, that's not the majority. That's a tiny minority of the people who've been at the School of the Americas. What the School of the Americas does is teach human rights. And it's the only school we have that really does it. It's responsible for promoting human rights across Central America and South America. And rather than try to banish it, we should be rewarding it and encouraging people to come and supporting the minimal appropriations it takes to bring those foreign students here. Because, they truly are the people who have the opportunity to learn our values and they are our best hope for preventing human rights abuses in Central and South America.

<snip>

Question #2: Sir, I'm still reeling from your answer to the young lady here about the School of the Americas. But, its somewhat mitigated by your answer about respect to our neighbors that you gave on this side. The third recipient of foreign aid from the United States is Columbia. And part of that has to do with the drug trafficking, the drug problem we have here. Can you please tell me your position on the Black Columbia, which is most of the foreign aid, military aid, to Columbia.

General Clark: <snip>

First of all, ask yourself this. Have you been there? Have any of you been to the School of the Americas and seen it in the classroom? Have you seen the curriculum? Have you talked to the people who've been there? OK, but I have. I was in charge of it. And, I'm not going to have been in charge of a school that I can't be proud of and can't support. In countries in South America, there have been a lot of problems over time. And when we started the School of the Americas, we didn't have the same integrity and feeling for human rights that we do today. It was started as a cold war artifact. It was designed to promote anti-Communism. And a lot of its graduates went on to take over their countries.

<snip>

<snip> But, I can't get to Father Berrigan. And no matter what I've tried to do to get him to take an honest and objective look at the School of the Americas, he doesn't seem to want to do it.

So, I think it's real important that we keep that school. And that's why I'm defending it to you. And, I'll stake my credibility on it. <snip> I think we should be proud of it. Its one of the great things our country is doing to try to help Latin America.

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=152

====

Irene asked, "You've stated repeatedly that you support the School of the Americas. In November of last year you were asked by a NH citizen about the many documented Human Rights abuses committed by SOA graduates. At the time you replied, "Imagine the things that would have happened if these soldiers hadn't been taught our principles of Democracy" and that you thought the school was "a good thing" and you "wouldn't kill it." Can you explain this position in light of the fact that many of the teaching materials used at the SOA involved methods of torture?"

Clark challenged the elderly woman (Irene) who asked the question by asking, "Have you seen these teaching materials?"

Irene responded that that no, she hadn't, but knew others who had.

Clark assured her that they didn't exist.

He also stated, "We're teaching police procedures and human rights . . . we don't teach torture . . . never taught torture."

<snip>

Gen. Clark repeated these remarks and challenge at the end of the "town hall meeting" which was covered by dozens of local and national media. This question was the only one that seemed to rattle his chains. He definitely seemed annoyed.

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=150

I didn't get called on during the Q&A, though I did get his attention afterward when he was shaking hands. I asked him what the thought about the upcoming protests at the SOA and where he stood on the school's operation.

He said that he had once taught there and that he supported the school. When I aksed about the many documented Human Rights abuses commited by SOA graduates, his reply was, " Imagine the things that would have happened if these soldiers hadn't been taught our principles of Democracy." I then asked him if he would support the schools closing and he said "I think the school's a good thing, and no I wouldn't kill it."

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=117

[mike_c]

21. Clark was in charge of the SOA during the late 90's...

...through his leadership of the Southern Command. He gave a commencement address at the SOA, praising the history, mission, and graduates of what has to be one of the worst foreign policy instruments of the U.S. during the twentieth century.

[retyred]

28. I will have to consult with the CIA ?

Consult with the CIA about training terrorists to overthrow elected governments in other countries?....the CIA?

Um...howard....the CIA trains terrorists to overthrow elected governments in other countries!


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[slinkerwink]

17. why are you turning this back onto Dean? It was Kerry that brought

it up.

[JohnKleeb]

29. becaue you guys have been hammering Clark most on this

and to quote Gore from the 2000 SNL parody debate, I commend you for it :). Kucinich and Gephardt are both against it, I dont know what Dean thinks, but both those two voted to condemn it, I suppose Kerry or Dean would be against it.

[bushclipper]

20. My thoughts

The School of Americas was opened in 1946 and was, thus, supported by Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton.

It is true that some of Latin America's dictators and violators of human rights graduated from the School of Americas, but they are certainly in the extreme minority of the 60,000 + students turned out by that school.

Some contend that the murderous ways of said dictators were more of a result of deeply embedded traditions and attitudes in Latin American military culture - patterns of behaviour that extend from both the Spanish conquerers and the native people already present there.

I might also point out that aside from Cuba, every country in Latin America now has elected leaders.

Perhaps despite their history, some learned something about democracy at the School of Americas?

(I'm of latin-American descent - mother was from Columbia)

[Clark4Prez]

23. Thank you

You put it well, there has been a great deal of hysteria lately about this issue. Democrats were in control of the White House and Congress from 1992-1994 and yet they did not close SOA.

That would include Gore, Bradley, and Harkin! But people aren't interested in that.

[KittyWampus]

22. Waiting For An Answer...

[Hoppin_Mad]

25. It was already posted - here it is again

Question:
The US has trained and or supplied many of our current enemies – for example, Osama, Saddam .... and we continue to have a program of training terrorists at the School for the Americas. Will you close the SOA?

Answer(paraphrase): DEAN: " I will have to consult with the CIA and find out exactly what is going on there. If it is as we have all heard, a place where we train terrorists to overthrow elected governments in other countries, then yes, absolutely I will close it. "

Pretty cut and dry

[KittyWampus]

32. He'll Consult With The CIA?

Are you kidding?

[Lefta Dissenter]

33. Of course, with that qualifier,

"If it is as we have all heard, a place where we train terrorists to overthrow elected governments in other countries, then yes, "

he would close it.

However, as has been mentioned, Gore, Harkin, Kerry, and all the others who have been in the senate (or VP) didn't feel that it should have been closed, so they must have known something contrary to that qualifier that Dean placed in here.

Similar to Dean's war-stance - so many qualifiers, you can't claim that you've 'taken a stand' if you haven't had to make any sort of decisions.

(clarifying that that above 'quote' was a a quote of the above poster's paraphrase of Dean's position)

[blm]

34. Funny he didn't KNOW that during the illegal Contra wars he supported.

He had no qualms about Reagan and Bush's illegal wars in Central America. Even now after all we know Dean can only muster up "mixed feelings" about those covert actions?

Where's the outrage?

[Bolo Boffin]

35. Cut and dry - and no different from Clark's position

One difference - Dean's willing to pander to the people who believe the SOA to be "a place where we train terrorists to overthrow elected governments in other countries." Clark's not.

But it sounds like Dean is taking the Clark SOA Challenge: go there and see if they're teaching "what we have all heard." If they aren't, and Clark's confident that they're not, then Dean will leave the doors of the SOA as wide open as Clark. He said so right there.

No substantive difference between the two. Dean simply knows which side his bread is buttered on, and Clark has the strength of his convictions.

[ulysses]

27. haven't found anything.

Thank god we at least know where Clark stands...

[democratreformed]

24. Link to PBS article with debate-style format on SOA

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec99/sotamericas_9-21.html

[KittyWampus]

26. Thank You For That

informed article!

[JohnKleeb]

30. Thanks

Moakey it says is debating some guy, I suppose Moakey would be opposed to SOA. Moakey to my knowledge is a Kerry man like all the MA delegation.

[corporatewhore]

31. Kucinich wants to end SOA

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

36. and Dean wants to IGNORE it