"new pearl harbor"

[Peter Frank]

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[WhizzbangMN]

1. Seems interesting but...

...over four years since 9/11. If there's anything to find, * has already destroyed it.

:shrug:

[Che_Nuevara]

2. As someone from New Jersey, I have only this to say:

For f'cks sake, can we give this "MIHOP" crap a rest?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Che_Nuevara]

6. Hrm. Indeed. Thanks for the well-wishes.

So now everyone who doesn't buy into extremist conspiracy theories is sick? I've done my own bit of poking around on the subject. I've read the numbers, seen the diagrams, read the write-ups of the physics of the whole matter. And let me tell you something else:

I have relatives who were -there-. They -saw- it happen. In the fucking building, and got out alive to describe what had happened. I know people who were in the buildings when they got hit, and I know cops who arrived on the scene shortly afterwards.

And I was there, less than a week later. And everything I saw jived with everything they said.

So don't give me any bullshit about how I'm 'sick' because I believe there are people in the world who do evil things OTHER than the Bush administration. And don't give me any bullshit about how 'we owe it to the people who died to find out the truth' -- more people from my town died on that day than from any other municipality other than NYC. So if I want to know what we 'owe' to whom, I'll talk to the dozens of people whose parents, aunts and uncles, cousins, brothers and sisters didn't make it out like mine did.

People need to wake the f'ck up and realize that this happened because America was vulnerable. And if we continue to be in denial about who wants to commit violence against our citizens, then it will happen AGAIN. We owe it to the 290 million LIVING people in America to snap our focus back where it belongs and not let that happen.

[Peter Frank]

7. Vulnerable? -- Of course!

...but to whom?

You stated your case well; but don't seem to question.

[Che_Nuevara]

12. I question plenty.

I question how the administration could have possibly missed this. I question how it could have gotten past them. I do not, however, believe that Americans were the -perpetrators- of what happened.

[Name removed]

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[Make7]

9. You certainly know how to sell an idea. See Post #4. ( n/t )

[BuyingThyme]

10. Are you trying to make a point? What is it?

Bored?

[Make7]

14. Trying to persuade someone to change their viewpoint...

... by being condescending and insulting is rarely successful.

- Make7

[Che_Nuevara]

17. No no, I'm actually quite thankful to BuyingThyme's methods.

I didn't know until now that I am, indeed, 'sick'. It turns out he's right and I have a terrible psychological affliction. Without his arguing methods, I would have never figured that out.

...

Do I need to type </sarcasm>?

[Name removed]

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[Che_Nuevara]

20. Accusing someone of having a mental illness

is not really a 'nice' way of doing anything.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[BuyingThyme]

28. You swim in hypocrisy to the point of comedy.

[Che_Nuevara]

30. See now that -- that was a clever line.

Much better than the 'sick' one. Kudos.

[Make7]

31. I thought that was a nice way to tell someone they are full of crap. n/t

[BuyingThyme]

41. Full of crap about what, Make7?

Please, enlighten me.

[Make7]

50. See......

....Post #4, Post #8, Post #19, Post #23, and Post #33. (NOTE: #4 and #8 are the most relevant ones.)

- Make7

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[Make7]

57. Also see......

....Post #54.

- Make7

[Che_Nuevara]

26. I don't know where you get this idea that

saying "you're sick" is 'nice'. It truly baffles me. It sounds pretty nasty to me.

Not that I'm particularly offended, because you don't know sh't about me other than my DU tag and that I don't believe in MIHOP. And that I'm from New Jersey. If I thought you actually had enough information on me to have a valid opinion of me, I might be offended. Then again, probably not.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Che_Nuevara]

36. "I didn't say it was nice." Post 33

"It's a nice way of telling someone he's full of crap." Post 23 (before it got deleted by a moderator)

"... the nicest way possible ..." Post 19 (before it got deleted by a moderator -- see a pattern here?)

[BuyingThyme]

38. Yes, I see a compulsive pattern of dishonesty and ignorance.

[Che_Nuevara]

47. If by "dishonesty" you mean

"saying something, and then claiming you didn't say it fifteen minutes later" (re: whether it is nice or not), then I wholeheartedly agree.

[BuyingThyme]

56. Like pretending you know what you're talking about.

Pretending you've researched the issue. You know, all-out lies. The kind of lies that dishonor the dead. The most despicable kind of lies one can imagine.

That kind of dishonesty.

[Che_Nuevara]

11. Actually, no, "LIHOP" is that they -let- it happen.

"MIHOP" is that they -made- it happen.

You know, it's that whole spelling thing, gets in the way.


One of the most common "MIHOP" arguments I've heard is that there must have been secondary explosives in the buildng, because they physics don't check out. And, well, they do.

There is plenty to say about how the administration handled the aftermath, and what exactly it implies. And yes, I've looked into that, plenty. And yes, there are much better explanations for it than "the Bush administration blew up the WTC" ... which is EXACTLY what "MIHOP" (there's that pesky 'm' again) means.

[BuyingThyme]

16. Don't try to tell me the difference.

You've made it more than clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

How 'bout you go and learn, for real, BEFORE you come here and spew your nonsense.

How 'bout you learn a little something about what you're talking about before you ask intelligent people to ignore the murders that were committed on 9/11. How 'bout you do something other than support the cover-up which has kept people like yourself from even having a chance of thinking for yourselves and learning the truth.

[Che_Nuevara]

18. I apologize.

I will never again tell you the difference between the letters 'l' and 'm'. It was very silly of me to do that.


But will you accept what Demopedia has to say on "MIHOP"? It's pretty much exactly what I said it was.
http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/MIHOP

[BuyingThyme]

25. If you had a clue, you would have realized years ago that

executive branch LIHOP is in no way different from executive branch MIHOP.

[Che_Nuevara]

34. That sentence defies logic in every way.

"Making" something happen and "letting" something happen are the same thing sort of in the way that "conspiracy theories" and "African elephants" are the same thing.

You know, not the same.

[BuyingThyme]

37. Man, you are freakishly clueless.

You're telling me that if Bush allowed people to fly planes into buildings, he's not responsible for making the event occur?

Is this really the first time you've had the obvious explained to you?

[Che_Nuevara]

42. Freakishly clueless ... in that I can read?

MIHOP refers to a conspiracy theory, similar to LIHOP, that the administration of US President George W. Bush was not only aware of the 9/11/2001 terrorist plans, but was an active participant and "Made It Happen On Purpose."

LIHOP refers to a conspiracy theory, similar to MIHOP, that the administration of US President George W. Bush was aware of the 9/11/2001 terrorist plans and "Let It Happen On Purpose." The most-commonly espoused reason given for why an administration would stand by passively in such a case ...


I don't understand why this is so complicated.

[BuyingThyme]

55. No, you don't.

[petgoat]

44. I don't see a huge difference. If you know there's a mad dog

coming down the street and you send your step-child out into the yard to play, that's LIHOP.
If you stole the mad dog from the animal shelter and put it in the street and sent your
step-child out to play, that's MIHOP.

What complicates the 9/11 stuff is that we don't know if Osama was wearing his CIA Asset hat
or his Islamic Terrorist hat (or both) when (and if) he arranged for the hijackings.

You may feel you have all the answers, Che. Take a look at Dr. Griffin's list of 39 lies and
76 critical omissions in the 9/11 Commission Report "The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-Page Lie"
http://ny911truth.org/articles/571-page_lie-DRG.htm

Take a look at Kleinberg and Van Auken's "FSC Questions to the 9/11 Commission
with ratings of its performance in providing answers"

http://justicefor911.org/Appendix4_FSCQuestionRatings_111904.php

How can you be satisfied with the answers given by the official investigation after you look at those
documents?

[Che_Nuevara]

46. The difference is the mad dog is not capable of higher thought

and rational decision-making. Terrorists are.

[petgoat]

49. I don't see the relevance of that difference.

You may feel you have all the answers, Che. Take a look at Dr. Griffin's list of 39 lies and
76 critical omissions in the 9/11 Commission Report "The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-Page Lie"
http://ny911truth.org/articles/571-page_lie-DRG.htm

Take a look at Kleinberg and Van Auken's "FSC Questions to the 9/11 Commission
with ratings of its performance in providing answers"

http://justicefor911.org/Appendix4_FSCQuestionRatings_1...

How can you be satisfied with the answers given by the official investigation after you look at those
documents?

[HamdenRice]

43. You can believe in MIHOP without believing in controlled demolition

Che, What if there was a lot of evidence about either LIHOP or MIHOP that had nothing to do with secondary explosions etc?

You cite Wikipedia as a credible source. Here is the Wiki entry on Gen. Mahmoud Ahmad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmad

Mahmoud Ahmad is an ex-head of the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (also Inter-Services Intelligence or I.S.I.), the principal intelligence body of the nation of Pakistan. Mahmoud Ahmad was known to be in America on regular visits of consultation with senior officials in the U.S. administration in the weeks before and after 9/11 and was with Republican Congressman Porter Goss and Democratic Senator Bob Graham in Washington, discussing Osama bin Laden over breakfast, when the attacks of September 11, 2001 happened. Ahmad was later retired from his role in the ISI on 8 October 2001, just prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan.

In early October 2001, Indian intelligence learned that Mahmoud had ordered Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida.

<end quote>

There are many other credible sources that elaborate on these strange meetings. Ahmad met with top Pentagon, CIA, National Security Council and State Department officials between 9/06 and 9/11 in DC.

Do you find it inexplicable that the guy who paid for Mohammed Atta's flight school training and other expenses was meeting with the top defense and intelligence officials in the days before 9/11 and on 9/11. How can you square these meetings with the "vulnerability" theory?

And if you are very angry at what happened on 9/11 because of how it affected your town, how would you feel these links are shown to have facilitated the attacks?

[Che_Nuevara]

52. Actually, I cited -demopedia-

the DU wiki.

[HamdenRice]

53. And what do you think of the substance of the entry? nt

[saigon68]

35. adios

[BuyingThyme]

39. Where are you going, saigon68?

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. Maybe you should ask yourself why were we 'vulnerable'

Why did Rummie sit in his office in the Pentagon watching the attack on TV rather then launching a NORAD response? Did you know that in June, 2001 Rummie change the rules for engaging NORAD during a hijacking so that he was the only one who could give the order and he sat around waiting for the attack to finish instead?

Then you might want to wonder about the rest of them who sat by and did nothing until the attack was over? Bush sat in a classroom doing a photo op instead. Gen Myers acting Chief of Staff that day saw the news on TV that the first tower was hit and had his meeting with Cleland anyway and telling Cleland's secretary not to disturb them. Cheney sat in his office watching the attack on TV until 9:35 AM when the Secret Service finally showed up and dragged him to the WH bunker. I could go on with more examples?

I grew up in NYC. I watched the WTC go from nothing to wow almost over night. I had family members in the building during the attack. I had friends who worked in the pit afterwords digging for bodies. So please get off your high horse and if you wish to keep your head in the sand fine, but don't think you've got the corner on righteousness around here.

[Che_Nuevara]

32. I do. Every damn day.

And every damn day I come to the same conclusion: the White House administration did not intentionally blow up the WTC.

[DoYouEverWonder]

40. Fine, that's your conclusion

but you shouldn't belittle people who believe otherwise.

Some of just want answers. Some of us just want to make sense of things that don't make sense. Some of us want the criminals in our own government who if they didn't MIHOP, certainly LIHOP be held accountable. That's all we want. Is there something wrong with that?

[Che_Nuevara]

45. It's laughable that someone on the DU forums

would say that you "shouldn't belittle someone for believing otherwise". That's what these forums are all about -- it's people making fun of conservatives and Christians all day long. It's "Freeper? Intelligent thought?" this, and "If those Bible-thumpers knew the first thing ..." that.

Or do you mean I shouldn't belittle a -progressive- who believes otherwise? In that case, I direct your attention to the fact that I was not the one who started the belittling -- I believe "you are either sick or ignorant" belonged to BuyingThyme. I merely said I'm sick and f'cking tired of hearing that Bush and his administration are the root of all that is evil. And I mean literally -all-.

Are Bush and his administration guilty of some pretty evil shit? Of course they are. And are they, at least in some way, accoutable for what happened on September 11, 2001? It would seem so. But to ascribe the entire thing to them is dangerous and ignorant.

There are people in this world who want to attack America, and there are people in this world who kill Christian Americans just because they are Christian Americans.

And those people flew planes into buildings in America to do just that. They did it because they had an opportunity to do it. If Bush is responsible for that opportunity because of negligency / idiocy / whatever, then hang him up! But people need to wake up smell the shit: terrorists are the bad guys too!

[petgoat]

48. There are people in this world who want to attack America

There certainly are now. It seems to me we're creating a generation of Iraqi orphans who will swear
to get their revenge if it takes them their whole lives.

And certainly there are people who want to attack America. But when the US demanded that Taliban turn
over Osama, Taliban asked for proof that he was guilty, and the US never provided the proof. Colin
Powell promised a White Paper containing the proof. And he never delivered it.

There are no arab names on the passenger lists. No effort has been made to identify the dead hijackers
through DNA.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that four arab suicide pilots and 15 accomplices who didn't know it was
a suicide mission had inside knowledge of the disruptive war games and flew the planes into the
buildings. If Osama ordered it because he hates America it's LIHOP. If Osama ordered it because the
CIA wanted him to it's MIHOP.

But the fact remains that there is no proof that's what happened.

[rman]

13. you can give it a rest, we won't.

why are you telling us what to do?

[Che_Nuevara]

15. Not to be too technical,

but I asked, I didn't 'tell'. ;)


And sure I can. And you all should, too, if you're more interested in getting done the things that need to get done than in wacky conspiracy theories.

[rman]

21. why are you telling us what we should do?

once upon a time there where theories about watergate and iran-contra, those to were called "wacky".

[Che_Nuevara]

22. Actually, Watergate was pretty obvious. (n/t)

[Twist_U_Up]

51. As someone from NY. I only have this to say

For fucks sake can we just get some actual hearings into what really happened ?

http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html

[dchill]

58. You can give it a rest if you need to...

Nobody will hold it against you. But it seems that you're not really interested in giving it a rest.

[mirandapriestly]

61. I hate it when people act like cuz they "knew someone who was there"

or they are "from New Jersey" it gives them some kind of special insight into 9-11 and that anyone who says that maybe we were lied to has no right to say anything. Talk about illogical.

[Make7]

3. "old pearl harbor"

Results 1 - 10 of about 291 for "old pearl harbor". (0.42 seconds)

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[Peter Frank]

5. Only information folks... n/t

[madokie]

29. but you started a shit storm, shame

;-)

[DemInDistress]

59. April 2001. james "stop the recount " baker says,,,

the advance of PNAC will likely be a slow one ABSENT some catastrophic and catalyzing event like a NEW PEARL HARBOR. H'm, sounds incriminating to me for coincidentally we had that NEW PEARL HARBOR on SEPT 11 2001.

Don't you just love these fake AMERICANS who want to bury LIHOP/MIHOP had they died on 911 I'd still be fighting for them and hope we never give up the chance to arrest,indict,convict and execute the scumbags behind the SEPT.11 ATTACKS even if that means the scum inside the WHITEHOUSE.

THANK YOU.

DEM

[greyl]

60. Here's one thoughtful page on the subject.

New Pearl Harbor - 911Myths

excerpt:

Now, we’re not saying that the PNAC didn’t see 9/11 as presenting some opportunities (in fact some of the members said publicly that it did). It did deliver increased military spending, of course, but that isn’t purely what the PNAC were after. They’re after targeted spending on new technologies, not simply more money. After the Pearl Harbor quote, for instance, the document reminds us it recommended a decision to “suspend or terminate aircraft carrier production”, and mentioned that the “Joint Strike Fighter... seems an unwise investment”. Yet as we write, 4 years on, neither issue is resolved:

Different versions of the Joint Strike Fighter are being developed for the Air Force, the Navy and the Marines, and there have been discussions that one of the models could be eliminated. The Pentagon also could delay the development of the next generation aircraft carrier - the CVN 21 - which is scheduled to begin construction in 2007.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/13079279.htm

Where we do think people really oversell this quote is in portaying it as some spookily accurate piece of foreknowledge, that the “New Pearl Harbour” was to justify regime change, war in Iraq or elsewhere in the Middle East. That really is a step too far, as you’ll find out if you download "Rebuilding America's Defenses" and read if for yourself.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm

bold mine


I'm afraid exaggerating this issue harms our cause, especially if found in a conversation with someone who has actually read the document. (very unlikely, I'm sure) Notice how so many of the "New Pearl Harbor" links in your OP are concerning a particular book that is for sale or are only embellishing the already slightly misrepresented document.

To be personally clear, I'm disgusted by the arrogance of our colonizing culture around the planet. Our government, past and present, is capable of thoroughly inhumane treatment of its own citizens. PNAC is 'evidence' of attitudes that I am deeply, totally opposed to. However, it doesn't provide evidence that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by our government.