The Existence of this Katrina Warning Video Refutes MIHOP

[Yavin4]

I've never subscribed to MIHOP for one main reason. It's just too difficult to keep such a conspiracy together. Someone on the inside would crack. Someone, either from a crisis of conscience or a deep need to he heroic, would have stepped forward and blown the whistle. We even know who Deep Throat is now.

This Katrina warning video further proves this point. Six months after the event a devastating video is released showing the president to be a complete liar about Katrina. If people couldn't be kept quiet about Katrina for more than six months, then how is that they can be kept quiet for 5 years about 9/11.

For the MIHOP true believers, how is it that they've been able to keep a lid on 9/11 without someone, anyone, coming forward to testify that the event happened on purpose.

[EstimatedProphet]

1. There's one big difference

the people that implemented 9/11 are dead. They ain't saying a thing.

[valerief]

11. True. Just like the witnesses who came forward for

the Kennedy assassination. All died mysterious deaths before their time.

[savemefromdumbya]

23. Who died

did I miss something?

[EstimatedProphet]

26. The hijackers died

and we'll never get to interrogate them.

[BlueEyedSon]

30. John P O'neill

[dogday]

39. Bingo-this never gets said enough nt

[bryant69]

43. That's logical.

Yeah, President Bush rubbed out the hijackers by, uh, having them fly planes into the world trade center.

Very efficient operation there.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[EstimatedProphet]

44. No, that's not what I'm saying

All I'm saying is that, since they died, we can't question them.

[bryant69]

45. I guess it depends on what version of the MIHOP story you believe

Obviously the hijackers are dead, but plenty of people who participated in getting them into the country and then in the cover-up are presumably still around.

Bryant

[EstimatedProphet]

46. I'm not taking a side on MIHOP at all

I don't know enough about it-except for this:

The people in this administration are the most evil, self-serving monstrosities this country has ever produced.

I don't know if they had the capability to make 9/11 happen. I don't know if they had the ability to keep it secret. I am positive they would do it, if they thought they could.

[helderheid]

40. Big difference - scapegoat for 9/11 is OBL and Saddam (we know better

about Saddam) and the scapegoat for Katrina is Heckofuh Job Brownie. Brownie was tired of being blamed.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I thought LIHOP meant

that the total incompetence and ignorance of the Bush Administration (like ignoring warnings and memos)allowed 911 to occur. I thought MIHOP meant that there was actual planning and a conspiracy to do it. If you go by my definitions of these terms, I think the Katrina tape shows that LIHOP has been the modus operendi of this Administration.

[Yavin4]

7. Sorry. I will Edit.

My apologies.

[ramblin_dave]

12. LIHOP means they knew and let it happen

As in they were following the 9/11 plotters, knew basically what they were up to and decided not to intervene. This doesn't take a big conspiracy, just a few well placed people to, say, block any local FBI agents who might be getting suspicious.

[Gman]

19. LIHOP = Let it happen on purpose

MIHOP = Make it happen on purpose.

Two different things.

[Webster Green]

3. Do you mean MIHOP?

The Katrina fisco, and the new video show how inept and detached from reality this administration is.

They were warned, but did nothing to stop 9/11, just like Katrina. That's LIHOP.

[Greeby]

4. Because they've already been made to look guilty over Katrina

So didn't feel the need to suicide anybody?

[BlueEyedSon]

5. They have managed to keep Cheney's energy docs and a Plame smoking gun

out of the public eye

[Yavin4]

9. But We Know They Do Exist

and eventually they will be released.

[BlueEyedSon]

29. so eventually will the "IHOP" evidence

[400Years]

6. almost all of the reality of U.S. foreign policy is never seen by most

unless you dig for it.

I don't see that they have ever really had a problem with keeping things out of view of the American people.

[Norquist Nemesis]

8. Well, first of all...the video didn't just get released

The video was put out by FEMA to the news media on the day it was made...and there it sat. In the wake of covering the disaster, the news media didn't go back and review these tapes that they had from the beginning. At least not until now.

[Yavin4]

That Also Proves My Point

In order for a conspiracy to work, you not only have to ensure that information is not deliberately, but also not accidentally leaked. Whether intentional, accidental, or blind bad luck, it's impossible to account for every variable.

The Watergate burgulars were discovered by a Night Guard.

[Norquist Nemesis]

22. Don't see where I claimed LIHOP or MIHOP on this one

Incompetence, arrogance, deaf and dumb...well, that's something else.

[Solomon]

32. Yeah well who discovered Kennedy's assasin and conspirators?

Oh. You believe Oswald did it alone.

[CJCRANE]

10. But wasn't Deep Throat's identity secret for 30 years..

not really a good example.

Plus, people have come forward (e.g. Sibel Edmonds) it's just that the MSM isn't reporting it.

[Yavin4]

16. His Identity Remained Secret for 30 years, not his information

Deep Throat was an insider and gave out information to the media. Again, a conspiracy was foiled by an insider.

[CJCRANE]

20. The MSM considers Al Gore "fringe"...

do you think they'd even return the phone call of someone claiming to have inside info on 9/11?

[EstimatedProphet]

17. And she's been silenced as well.

[canichelouis]

13. Who shot JFK?

Who shot RFK?
Who shot MLK?

Elections 2000 anyone?
Elections 2004?

Where is JWB's driving record?
Military records anyone?

What exactly goes on in the Scull and Bones Club?
Lots of members.

[mdmc]

15. more time, more info

time outs all.:kick:

[LoZoccolo]

21. Here's what's wrong with your argument.

Your argument says that because there have been conspiracies, there must be one here. (I don't actually believe in all the conspiracy theories you cite, but lets say that you do.)

There are also fake conspiracy theories. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is one of them that was used to justify anti-Semitism. There are also a bunch of fake ones that right-wing militia groups believe.

So the existance of fake conspiracy theories would mean that MIHOP is fake too, right? It basically fits your line of reasoning.

[canichelouis]

49. My response was to this, from the initial poster

For the MIHOP true believers, how is it that they've been able to keep a lid on 9/11 without someone, anyone, coming forward to testify that the event happened on purpose.

[Yavin4]

54. Exactly

Even though, these very same people could not stop the CIA from coming out and saying (1) there are no WMDs and (2) the Bush admin pushed the intelligence community into lying about WMDs.

[savemefromdumbya]

24. the driving record

is on thesmokinggun.com

[mdmc]

14. how long did it take to out deepthroat?

wait until 2056. Most folks hide the truth until their grandchildren have passed. Mark Twain refused to publish some of his works until his kids passed.

[dchill]

52. Actually, I believe...

he outed himself. So, nobody ever "outed" him.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

18. You should try and talk to go talk to Sibel Edmonds....

oh wait thats right you cant, the courts have gagged her.

[mithnanthy]

48. Exactly..Sibel Edmonds

has provided very important information that has been "gagged" from the public. She is a true HERO!

[LoZoccolo]

25. For reference: features of conspiracy theories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories#Features

You bring up a good point about no one coming forward; that's basically what feature #5 is about. Someone would have to be very very adept at keeping their guilt under wraps to not come forward.

[Junkdrawer]

27. Hardly. For one thing, it looks like the Saudis "ran" the active part...

of the operation. Senator Bob Graham (he sat on the Senate Intelligence Committee during 9/11) says he has proof that the Saudi Government paid the hijackers...

• At one point, a terrorist support network conducted some of its operations through Saudi Arabia’s U.S. embassy–and a funding chain for terrorism led to the Saudi royal family.
• In February 2002, only four months after combat began in Afghanistan, the Bush administration ordered General Tommy Franks to move vital military resources out of Afghanistan for an operation against Iraq–despite Franks’s privately stated belief that there was a job to finish in Afghanistan, and that the war on terrorism should focus next on terrorist targets in Somalia and Yemen.
• Throughout 2002, President Bush directed the FBI to limit its investigations of Saudi Arabia, which supported some and possibly all of the September 11 hijackers.
• The White House was so uncooperative with the bipartisan inquiry that its behavior bore all the hallmarks of a cover-up.
• The FBI had an informant who was extremely close to two of the September 11 hijackers, and actually housed one of them, yet the existence of this informant and the scope of his contacts with the hijackers were covered up.
• There were twelve instances when the September 11 plot could have been discovered and potentially foiled.
• Days after 9/11, U.S. authorities allowed some Saudis to fly, despite a complete civil aviation ban, after which the government expedited the departure of more than one hundred Saudis from the United States.
• Foreign leaders throughout the Middle East warned President Bush of exactly what would happen in a postwar Iraq, and those warnings went either ignored or unheeded.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400063523/sr=8-1/qid=1141323502/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3681050-2346540?%5Fencoding=UTF8

I still wonder what was in those 28 pages that are classified as "Top Secret".

[TallahasseeGrannie]

28. Good Point. My biggest issue

with MIHOP if they were CIA or American secret miliatry planes, is just who did they get to run the suicide mission at four sites? Suicide for creed or country isn't part of our culture by any means.

[Solomon]

33. I guess you don't know about remote controlled planes.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

35. No, I really didn't know we had the technology

to do remote control on that large an airliner and with that level of precision.

Do you have a theory as to where the passengers and the real airliners went?

[Cleita]

31. MIHOP doesn't involve lower station heads of agencies like

Brown. If MIHOP is a reality, it happened in the closed group that now surrounds the Presidency. This same group did not leak the Katrina video, but some others under them in the power structure. To leak information about 9-11 would implicate all of them in what would definitely be a one way trip to prison for all of them.

I'm just looking at this in another way.

[Junkdrawer]

34. And people keep confusing the Rogue CIA with the Real CIA...

Book Description

After decades of writing and research about American intelligence, Joseph Trento has written the most authoritative indictment of CIA splinter groups, two generations of Bush family involvement in illegal financial networks, and the funding of the agents of terror. Prelude to Terror reveals the history of a corrupt group of spymasters-led by Ted Shackley-who were fired when Jimmy Carter became president, but who maintained their intelligence portfolio and used it to create a private intelligence network. After this rogue group helped engineer Carter's defeat in 1980 and allied with George H.W. Bush, these former CIA men planned and conducted what became the Iran-Contra scandal and, through the Saudis, allied the U.S. with extreme elements in Islam. The CIA's number-one front man, Edwin P. Wilson, was framed by Shackley and his cohorts so that Wilson's operations could be taken over. For the first time the story of how CIA director George H. W. Bush was recruited into this network, and brought it into the bosom of the Saudi royal family, is told in detail, as well as how this group's manipulation of the CIA bureaucracy allowed Osama bin Laden's fundraising to thrive as al Qaeda flourished under Saudi and CIA protection.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786714646/qid=1141324108/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-3681050-2346540?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[JackRiddler]

56. Figure it out... the Katrina video didn't leak!

It was fed to the media on the same day as an example of their vigilance. Then, they were lucky that no one noticed it as the levees broke...

[leftofthedial]

36. if picking your nose with a shovel is so hard

then why would anyone believe that digging a hole with a shovel would work?

your "logic" is beyond absurd.

what the hell happened to people's brains in this country?

did the neocons use some sort of sci-fi-ish radio waves to make everybody stupid at some point?

[LoZoccolo]

37. I think we'd rather you explain than insult. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

42. HAHA! You are sooo right!

Too much sugar in the cereal during childhood?

We here in New Orleans KNOW FOR A FACT we were left to die ON PURPOSE! ... AND, it was planned at least a year in advance.

[Yavin4]

47. If You Need To Insult, Then Your Argument Is Weak

My logic is that for a conspiracy to work, intentional and/or unintentional supression of the truth is nearly impossible, especially for large-scale, complex events like 9/11.

The Katrina video shows that the truth eventually comes out in one form or another.

[leftofthedial]

50. the OP is a classic logical fallacy

first, aside from the logical problem, the existence of an orchestrated Katrina MIHOP is still unproven. Lies? Negligence? Incompetence? Yes. MIHOP? No way did king george's crime gang cause the hurricane.

second, the exposure of the Katrina failures, MIHOP or not, has a known correlation to the events of 9-11, MIHOP or not, and that correlation is ZERO.

It is exactly logically equivalent to my shovel example.

Substitute "MIHOP" for "shovel." Substitute "Katrina recovery effort" for "picking your nose." Substitute "9-11" for "digging a hole."

The OP in effect is trying to assert that the Katrina tape proves that no successful conspiracy is ever possible, which is absurd on its face.

This fallacy has been refuted dozens of times on this forum alone.

Think, people. Argue based on facts, or failing that, at least on logical reasoning. Don't use Limbaugh-ish "truthiness" and false logic to argue among ourselves.

[Yavin4]

53. You Are Re-Framing My Post

You are in a sense re-creating my post in order to disprove my argument. IOW, you are re-framing ,y argument and then arguing against your re-created frame instead of looking at the argument itself.

First, I'm not comparing the actual events of 9/11 to Katrina, like you're doing in your re-frame.

Second, I'm comparing the fact that it's difficult to suppress information about cataclysmic events without the truth slipping out either intentionally or unintentionally. I never said that it was impossible to construct a conspiracy which was how you re-framed my post.

My overall point is that suppression of the truth around great events is nearly impossible. We found out that Vietnam was based on a lie. We found out that Nixon covered-up the break-in. We found out that Roosevelt knew about the concentration camps.

We found out that there were no WMDs in Iraq. We found out that Bush and Cheney pressured the intelligence community to falsify the facts. We found out that Bush knew about the Katrina hurricane devastation before the hurricane hit.

We found out about these enormous events, yet somehow, someway, this administration was able to coordinate the hijacking of four American passenger planes and fly them into buildings without anyone, any where coming forth with the truth, even though we've seen high ranking members of the intelligence community come out with the truth about WMDs in Iraq.

Supression of truth, whether intentional or unintentional, is far more difficult than what you are willing to admit.

[leftofthedial]

55. I'm not intentionally reframing your argument

I did not equate 9-11 and Katrina.

You said you don't believe 9-11 was MIHOP because conspiracies are too hard to cover up

You said the Katrina coverup was exposed by the videotape. You said this in such a way as to imply that it was evidence in support of your opinion that 9-11 was not MIHOP.

I'm pointing out that the two--Katrina and 9-11--are unrelated.

The failure of one conspiracy (and your example is not unambiguously a conspiracy in the first place) does not prove that another conspiracy did not happen.


"The Existence of this Katrina Warning Video Refutes MIHOP"--your thread title is a false statement

The Katrina briefings were large teleconferences with who knows how many "civilian" FEMA staff participating in multiple locations. I doubt the MIHOP execution on 9-11 (if there was such) would have involved such a telebriefing. It was this teleconference that exposed the Katrina lie.

[CJCRANE]

38. The truth is

nobody wants to hear about it.

Who in the MSM or on Capitol Hill wants to turn the world upside down?

Nobody. Society survives by adhering to certain narratives and keeping order. There would be absolute chaos if any kind of MIHOP story got credence in the MSM (and they kept with it).

[ksilvas]

41. The reason MIHOP worked so well is because they didn't tell bunny-pants.

They all wanted it to happen and had been facilitating it,
but I doubt any of them new the whole plan, thats how
could conspiracy's are perpetrated.

[dchill]

51. "Refutes MIHOP" - not at all.

Who else besides Heckuva Job Brownie has been fired by George Bush? I never heard of anyone losing their job because of 9/11, despite huge dereliction on the part of just about everyone involved in "protecting America" - in fact, many were promoted and/or awarded medals. What were they being rewarded for except keeping quiet about what really happened?

[paulthompson]

57. Personally...

...I don't think most conspiracies actually require large numbers of conspirators. Most people who do their jobs are just cogs in a machine who have no idea as to the larger strategic purpose of what they're doing, who ultimately ordered them to do it, and for what purpose.

But be that as it may, for anyone who thinks massive conspiracies can't be kept secret, take a look at Operation Gladio. This was a massive conpiracy involving thousands of people to undermine left wing movements in Europe from the end of WW2 until 1990, when the secret finally got exposed. It was basically a CIA run operation and involved numerous false flag operations. For instance, the Italian government did an official investigation and concluded that a bombing of the Bologna train station in 1980 that killed 80 people that was blamed on a left wing group was actually done by a right wing group and that elements of US intelligence were involved.

Do some research on this, read a book or two on it, then get back to us and see if you can still maintain that secrets of this nature can't be kept for a long time. And how it eventually came out is interesting, as well. I believe one Italian official announced he was going to reveal something then he got an ice pick in the head in a brutal murder. It was only in the fall out from his death that the Italian prime minister decided to go public with the story. But that ice pick shows the extent to with which intelligence agencies will go to keep secrets.

And Gladio is hardly ancient history. Some of the figures involved in that, for instance Michael Ledeen, has prominent roles in the Bush administration and current intrigues, like the whole forged Niger documents saga.

[mirandapriestly]

61. Wow, I never heard of Gladio

(which proves your point, as well!) I think I'll do some reading on it.

[pauldp]

58. CIA commits 100,000 crimes every year

and nobody talks.

The "somebody always talks" meme is really weak.

If we could hear from all the gagged whistle blowers: Sibel Edmonds, Anthony Schaffer and the like,
the picture would be clear for everyone. Not to mention people like Indira Singh who did talk but are being gagged by the media.

So not only is it rare for people involved with covert ops to talk, but people ARE talking in the case of 911.

[stickdog]

59. What infantile thinking. It's like saying that Barry Bonds can

never hit a home run since he failed to hit one in one of his at bats.

[mirandapriestly]

60. Partial Involvement & Chain Of Command, Compartmentalization

only a few are\were aware of what was happening. The others played their parts, but they were only aware of their small part,(ie:being told not to act) not the big picture. There is no videotape of people planning 9-11. There is evidence of them planning Iraq right away and changing their story about 9-11, having pre knowledge of the alleged hijackers, and guess what? no one cares. The media never says anything about it. People who talk or threaten to talk are silenced (Sibel Edmonds) or have their careers ruined, are killed (John O'Neill) and labeled kooks and not listened to. Cooperative people like Giuliani made millions off of 9-11 and others were promoted.

Not only that, but I have NPR on all day (can't get AAR reception in the house)and they NEVER talk about Bush lying about Katrina, even with the video, the only thing I heard was one of the vacuous hosts saying "did Bush know more than he was letting on about Katrina?" Duh!

[govegan]

62. Who engineered the hurricane?

Major disconnect here.

Are you saying that the World Trade Center destruction was an "act of Deity", a major force of nature?

That's a good one!!!!

You should try to get on late night TV.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh, I get it! Duh.

Lord talks to Chimp. Chimp makes plan. Building go boom.

:nuke: