Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Let's just remove NORAD from the picture altogether...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU
 
theSaiGirl Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 02:25 PM
Original message
Let's just remove NORAD from the picture altogether...
A big fat commercial jet leaves DC (no airport security videos of the mythical "hijackers") flies all the way out to Kentucky/Ohio; turns around and flies all the way back to DC; does a spectacular loop-de-loop and slams into a half-vacant wing of the Pentagon.

Andrews AFB is right down the road from me.
On a day when the President was flying in and out (to Sarasota, Florida for a reading of pet-goat stories with schoolkids) ... we just happened not to have any "combat-ready" squadrons to scramble and intercept a hijacked commercial plane heading toward DC airspace - the most heavily surveilled and protected airspace on the planet ?
How many air bases did that invincible "Flight 77" fly past on its way back to Washington for its rendezvous with destinty ?

Got to hand it to those "hijackers" !!
What self-confidence !!
The figured they could hijack the plane and fly it BACK to DC all the way from Kentucky thru Ohio and West Virginia ....
and NEVER BE INTERCEPTED by NORAD !!!!
Now that's real self-confidence !!!

(Stupidity too ... one would think ... .. but it's really the Ameican people who earn that caveat, for buying into such a ridiculous plotline.)

It would have required a deliberate NORAD stand-down, a total violation of established automatic procedures for scrambling to intercept ANY airborne object that went awry, through hijacking, mechanical failure, and unconscious pilot - whatever circumstance ... especially if it was potentially headed for DC airspace.
????
That one's a no-brainer...
Just like Payne Stewart's famous private jet flight, which we all watched NORAD track for quite some time..

And now, we are asked to believe that NORAD never got the chance to scramble and intercept a big fat commercial jet flying in from the midwest ?
Or that there was a deliberate NORAD stand-down in violation of long-established procedures ?
Nobody resigns in disgrace ... nobody gets court-martialled - in fact, the responsible parties (Rumfeld, Myers, Eberhart, Arnold, Minetta) are applauded and even promoted !
No failure here ..
Nothing to see ... just move right along, folks ....

Much more likely that a missile was used, and "evidence" planted after the fact.
That's why they rushed to confiscate and suppress the security camera videos from the nearby DoD gas station and the Sheraton.
While presenting us with a cartoon-like "flash" video - a handful of foggy frames - ostensibly representing a "plane" hitting the Pentagon.

Only in a nation where the media was totally controlled, and the population totally compliant - could they pull off a stunt like that












Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Unfortunately, Payne Stewart proves the opposite point...
Read the NTSB report - it took one hour 23 minutes to get a plane to intercept Stewart's plane and it was not a dedicated air defense interceptor but an unarmed F16 out on a routine training mission. If Payne Stewart is your only data point the only conclusion one can come to is that it was not routine to scramble fighters in minutes to intercept "ANY airborne object that went awry, through hijacking, mechanical failure, and unconscious pilot - whatever circumstance".

Now if you were able to provide any account of an intercept of an airliner over land then perhaps you might have something - I bet you will not be able to find anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theSaiGirl Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Standard Operating Procedure for scrambling to intercept

re: Payne Stewarts's private jet and USAF jets that scrambled...

According to ATC radio transmissions, the flight departed MCO about 0919 EDT bound for DAL. At 0921:46 EDT, the flight contacted the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and reported climbing through an altitude of 9,500 feet to 14,000 feet.3

At 0921:51 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 260. N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "two six zero bravo alpha." At 0923:16 EDT, the controller cleared N47BA direct to Cross City and then direct to DAL. N47BA acknowledged the clearance. At 0926:48 EDT, N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency change.

At 0927:10 EDT, N47BA called the Jacksonville ARTCC controller and stated that the flight was climbing through an altitude of FL 230. At 0927:13 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 390. At 0927:18 EDT, N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "three nine zero bravo alpha." This was the last known radio transmission from the airplane.4 The sound of the cabin altitude aural warning5 was not heard on the ATC recording of this transmission.6

At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response. About 1000 CDT, the test pilot began a visual inspection of N47BA. There was no visible damage to the airplane, and he did not see ice accumulation on the exterior of the airplane. Both engines were running, and the rotating beacon was on. He stated that he could not see inside the passenger section of the airplane because the windows seemed to be dark. Further, he stated that the entire right cockpit windshield was opaque, as if condensation or ice covered the inside. He also indicated that the left cockpit windshield was opaque, although several sections of the center of the windshield seemed to be only thinly covered by condensation or ice; a small rectangular section of the windshield was clear, with only a small section of the glare shield visible through this area. He did not see any flight control movement. About 1012 CDT, he concluded his inspection of N47BA and proceeded to Scott AFB, Illinois.

About 1113 CDT, two Oklahoma ANG F-16s with the identification "TULSA 13 flight" were vectored to intercept the accident airplane by the Minneapolis ARTCC. The TULSA 13 lead pilot reported to the Minneapolis ARTCC controller that he could not see any movement in the cockpit. About 1125 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot reported that the windshield was dark and that he could not tell if the windshield was iced.

About 1133 CDT, a TULSA 13 airplane maneuvered in front of the accident airplane, and the pilot reported, "we're not seeing anything inside, could be just a dark cockpit though...he is not reacting, moving or anything like that he should be able to have seen us by now."

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. There was no scramble...
did you even read what you posted? They lost contact at 0933 EDT and it was not intercepted until 0952 CDT (1052 EDT) - an hour 19 minutes!! If that is the standard then it looks like 9/11 went as planned. And look at the plane - "USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida". That is not even a combat squadron - they test new aircraft and equipment. What you have with Payne Stewart is a lengthy delay before an intercept by a non-combat aircraft on a test flight. Explain to me again how this is SOP?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StrafingMoose Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Re...

Yet again, we seem to have inconsistencies between what the mainstream media reported and what your NTSB report has...



An Air Force spokesman says two U.S. Air Force F-15s from Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, intercepted the plane shortly after it lost contact with aircraft controllers, and followed it to Missouri.

Pilots reported the plane's crew was "non-responsive" and that the cockpit windows were obscured by condensation or frost, an indication the aircraft may have lost cabin pressure.

Over Missouri, four F-16s from an Air National Guard unit based in Fargo, North Dakota, took over the escort mission, and stayed with the plane until it crashed.

The Air Force says additional F-16s were also scrambled from the Oklahoma Air National Guard unit in Tulsa, but were not used because the Fargo planes arrived first.

...

Two other F-16s on "strip alert" at Fargo, South Dakota, were armed, but never took off.

...

The fighter planes circled the area until they were told the scene of the crash had been located and their assistance was no longer needed.



So here we have about at least 10 fighters jets involved (assuming that these are usually sent in pairs - I may have to be corrected on this one) just for Payne's plane... We have at least 2 _armed_ F16 armed - on strip alert.

Here.


Instead, according to an Air Force timeline (I have yet to find this timeline), a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with a pair of F-16 Falcons from the Air National Guard at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact.


Here. Could you briefly summarize how the NTBS report can get these conclusions?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Who are the experts in reconstructing airplane accidents?
and what is more likely to be more accurate - the initial reports in the media by reporters trying to meet a deadline or the results of a methodical investigation by a panel of experts? I don't share your faith in the MSM - they can always be counted on to get the initial story wrong. Just look at the coverage of the Katrina "snipers" or the reporting on Iraq. I have never understood the suspension of disbelief concerning the MSM that CTrs have towards 9/11. Isn't it patently obvious that if it supports your position you accept it with no questions while if it does not, it is immediately suspect?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StrafingMoose Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. So your answer is...


"They lied and got it wrong" ?

Go ahead. Knock yourself out.

I'm not believing it as much as I'm underlining the fact that some MSM reports contradicts the official govt' approved story - once again. Why? Why would trying to meet a deadline always end up in a situation where you contradict what the Official Story says? Is it because the MSM is hell bent on conspiracy theories or elements that would lead people to think so?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. When you cherry pick your stories,
of course you can find a story that is counter to the official story. Is it your contention that every media report on this incident was identical to the others in every major aspect? Your faith in the MSM is naive. Please think - what you are saying is that a story quickly put together in a short time by a reporter who may know nothing about airplanes and the military is somehow comparable in accuracy to a deliberate investigation by aviation experts.

I never said they lied - mistakes are not lies.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StrafingMoose Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I agree
Edited on Mon Nov-28-05 08:36 PM by StrafingMoose
But still, you haven't answered the first question.

I think we can also agree that in a logical way of reasoning, you would need to disprove these reports so could wave the NTSB report as truth. You would need to disprove them in order to be able to say "only one plane involved", instead of ten planes or so involved. You would also need to disprove them so you could say "1hr30" instead of "20 minutes".

Has the NTSB report actually dealt with these? Did NTSB obtain retractions from CNN, Jamie McIntyre, Associated Press and Reuters? If so how did they come to these conclusions? Something right down false must be provable false, right?

I am not believing these specific MSM reports more than the NTSB report actually - I was only bringing them up.

You can also not answer if you wish, this is not an attack, rather candid questions.

By the way, even the governement uses the MSM to justify its position.

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jan/14-610042.html
http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Sep/16-241966.html



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I can't disprove them simply because I do not possess...
the ultimate truth. I just don't understand why you feel that there is some sort of equivalency between a news report and a deliberate investigation. Don't you think that given time, all the errors and inconsistencies in the initial reports would be ironed out as the NTSB investigators went and talked to all the participants? Is it your contention that the initial MSM reports were as thorough and complete as the NTSB? Don't you agree with the general statement that the initial reports on any incident are inaccurate and only over time does the true picture emerge?

Why would the NTSB give a rats ass what CNN said? Their mandate is to determine to the best of their ability what happened. Why would they be concerned with the accuracy of newsreporters?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. More from the mainstream media:
First I'll continue the quote from your second source:

Instead, according to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with a pair of F-16 Falcons from the Air National Guard at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact.

An F-16 and an A-10 Warthog attack plane from Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., took up the chase a few minutes later and were trailing the Lear when it climbed abruptly from 39,000 to 44,000 feet at 9:52 a.m. CDT.


And I'll introduce another source to add to the confusion:

Pentagon officials said the military began its pursuit of the ghostly civilian aircraft at 10:08 a.m., when two Air Force F-16 fighters from Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida that were on a routine training mission were asked by the FAA to intercept it. The F-16s did not reach the Learjet, but an Air Force F-15 fighter from Eglin Air Force Base in Florida that also was asked to locate it got within sight of the aircraft and stayed with it from 11:09 a.m. to 11:44 a.m., when the military fighter was diverted to St. Louis for fuel.

Fifteen minutes later, four Air National Guard F-16s and a KC-135 tanker from Tulsa were ordered to try to catch up with the Learjet but got only within 100 miles. But two other Air National Guard F-16s from Fargo, N.D., intercepted the Learjet at 12:54 p.m, reporting that the aircraft's windows were fogged with ice and that no flight control movement could be seen. At 1:14 p.m., the F-16s reported that the Learjet was beginning to spiral toward the ground.


So the first story says the F-16's from Tyndall began the escort about twenty minutes after loss of radio contact. What time would that be exactly? It doesn't say - let's say it was around 9:54am. (About twenty minutes after the NTSB reports loss of radio contact.)

But the second story says the FAA requested an intercept at 10:08am. If the plane had already been intercepted, why is the military pursuit beginning at 10:08am with this FAA request? Didn't the FAA know the plane was intercepted already? Maybe they were unaware that the Lear Jet had been intercepted because the F-16's from Tyndall never reached the plane. (According to the the Washington Post article.)

The Post article goes on to say that an F-15 from Elgin made contact with the plane, but there is no mention of the F-16 or the A-10 reported in the Dow Jones article.

Is anyone else confused? Who are we to believe?
:) Make7
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. report is a joke
I've read it too many times to consider and it's unbelievable.

What kind of report does not rationalize the times?

If it was intercepted by training flights out of a Florida base in northern Florida... seems impossible that it's been flying along dead for 1:19 and still in Florida (it later made it to North Dakota).

My conclusion is that this is a poorly written report and probably has the times wrong.

IT'S ALSO IRRELEVANT. ONE CASE ONLY.

THIS IS RELEVANT - FROM JUSTICE FOR 9/11:

2. These standard procedures were activated on 67 occasions in the period from September 2000 to June 2001 (see, FAA news release, 8/9/02; AP, 8/13/02); and in 129 cases in the year 2000 (see, Calgary Herald, 10/13/01). These figures were released by FAA and NORAD officials to the press in 2002, but go completely unmentioned in The 9/11 Commission Report. The report does not indicate whether the Kean Commission requested comprehensive performance data on these prior interception orders from the military, or whether the military provided any such information. An analysis to determine the typical circumstances and response times for interception orders prior to 9/11 would require, in each case for which orders were issued, data on the times it took for air traffic control to determine that a flight was errant; for the FAA to alert NORAD; for NORAD to issue a scramble order and for the scrambled jet(s) to take to the air; and, subsequently, for the interception itself; as well as the location of the errant flight, and information on whether it was still broadcasting transponder data. (Transponder broadcasts from planes under IFR locate the craft and specify its altitude. When these are interrupted, craft can still be located by "skin paint" on primary radar, albeit without altitude data.) Also necessary would be data on cases of errant planes or unknowns in which no scramble orders were issued. Of special interest would be the prior performance within NORAD's Northeastern Air Defense Sector ("NEADS"), which is headquartered at Rome, New York. Such a cumulative analysis--with special attention to cases when passenger planes deviated from course in the air-traffic control zones within which the 9/11 attacks occurred--would provide indispensable context for serious research into the subject of air defense response on September 11. This data is currently unavailable to the public, and there is no indication such an analysis was undertaken by the Kean Commission.

http://justicefor911.org/iiA1_AirDefense_111904.php
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. See note 7.
About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response. About 1000 CDT, the test pilot began a visual inspection of N47BA. There was no visible damage to the airplane, and he did not see ice accumulation on the exterior of the airplane. Both engines were running, and the rotating beacon was on. He stated that he could not see inside the passenger section of the airplane because the windows seemed to be dark. Further, he stated that the entire right cockpit windshield was opaque, as if condensation or ice covered the inside. He also indicated that the left cockpit windshield was opaque, although several sections of the center of the windshield seemed to be only thinly covered by condensation or ice; a small rectangular section of the windshield was clear, with only a small section of the glare shield visible through this area. He did not see any flight control movement. About 1012 CDT, he concluded his inspection of N47BA and proceeded to Scott AFB, Illinois.

7 About 1010 EDT, the accident airplane crossed from the EDT zone to the CDT zone in the vicinity of Eufaula, Alabama.

8 This interception was at the request of the Jacksonville ARTCC mission coordinator through the USAF.

9 The accident airplane reached a maximum altitude of 48,900 feet.


http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

-Make7
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theSaiGirl Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. NORAD response time, Payne Stewart and the Pentagon
Of course one might naively assume that procedures and preparations for defending the airspace over the nation's capital might be a little more thorough, and just a bit faster in response... than would have been the case for poor Payne Stewart.

Here's a map of the alleged flight of the mythic unstoppable "Flight 77"

http://www.the-movement.com/air%20operation/Flight77.htm


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Think for a second...
what would the military be defending the Pentagon from? There is no hostile nation that could reach DC with aircraft so there was(and is) no military threat. The idea that the Pentagon would be defended against airliners is laughable when you consider that it sits next to a major airport with airliner flying nearly overhead around the clock. An airliner in the flight path to National airport could alter course and crash into the Pentagon in a matter of seconds - how do you reasonably defend against that? And how do you do it in a manner that guarantees that no innocent passengers would be killed by accident?

I question your belief that prior to 9/11 the DC airspace was heavily defended and would ask that you prove it with some evidence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StrafingMoose Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What?
Edited on Sat Nov-26-05 07:45 PM by StrafingMoose
"There is no hostile nation that could reach DC with aircraft so there was(and is) no military threat"

I guess NORAD was then wrong for about 40 years when they had scores of fighters on airstrip alert all this time. And I'd assume you can't fly anywhere near the Pentagon.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Actually
National is quite close.

So is Andrews and Langley isn't far away.

I could drive faster from Langley to the Pentagon than the Langley jets flew on 9/11 - they get a scramble order between 9:09 and 9:21 and they get there around 10.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Remember the Soviet Bear..
with all those bombers that haven't been flying since the late 80's. There has not been a Russian bomber near our shores in decades. There was a threat but not in 2001. Why do you think Bill Clinton reduce the strip alert aircraft in 1997 to just 7 aircraft at 14 sites.

The Pentagon can't be protected from surprise attack when there are hundreds of aircraft literally flying overhead every day. How do you think they would be about to determine a threat and react yet guarantee no mistakes?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StrafingMoose Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Re...
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 06:22 PM by StrafingMoose

Why do you think Bill Clinton reduce the strip alert aircraft in 1997 to just 7 aircraft at 14 sites.


So is there a threat or not?

That the Pentagon is undefendable against "sneak" attacks, and has been totally compromised by this kind of threat since 1943 seems to me, to be an apologistic overstatement. Saying that there is absolutely no way of protecting such buildings, which Cold War era warmongers have used as their primary command center, from suicidal maniacs or remotely controled aircrafts is a posture I wouldn't personally adhere to.

Anyways, Flight 77 was nothing of a sneak attack I believe. It didn't come from a nearby airport - it deviated from its course at 8:54, and by 8:56 its transponder was turned off over near Lawrence county airport, Alabama (not just beside the Pentagon then BLAM!). It struck the Pentagon at 9:37. Doesn't sound sneaky to me.






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theSaiGirl Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. NORAD ? What NORAD ? Air defense over DC ? Who needs that ?
According to the Associated Press, fighters were scrambled by NORAD 67 times in the 9 month period preceding 9/11/01, so apparently it was not an uncommon occurance.

========================
Yes...NORAD has changed their timeline and stories many times. Originally they said they were first notified about Flight 77 after 9:20. But then in the book "Among the Heroes", the pilots who were at Langley claim they were called by NORAD much earlier and told to get into their planes and they then sat on the runway for some time awaiting instructions. They also claim they were then told to fly to New York, although NORAD officials say they were ordered to fly to Washington.

Better yet, on 9/13/01 in front of the Senate Committee on Armed Services, General Myers was asked to give a detailed account of the Air Force's response that day and he never made any mention of any fighters taking off from Langley. CBS was the first to report the Langley fighters on 9/15/01 in a Dan Rather news broadcast where he said "CBS has learned....." without giving any source of the information. After that, all the other news channels reported the same. Now that has become a part of the official story.

During the 9/11 Commission hearings, the blame was thought to lay at the FAA's feet since they had waiting over a half hour before notifying NORAD, but they then changed their story and said they notified them much sooner, and NORAD went along with this and then blamed this "exercise" for the delay.

Either way you cut it, there was a 40 minute gap from the time the plane first went off course to when interceptors took off. Regulations for both NORAD and the FAA call for this to happen "immediately".

I have read the excuse that this was an unusual situation and they were not prepared for this, but this was not an unusual situation at all as interceptors are sent up very regularly when planes go off course or when they have communication problems with pilots. The Associated Press had reported that NORAD had sent up interceptors over 60 times during 2001 before 9/11, so this was not an unusual procedure. If anyone remembers the Paine Stewart flight a few years ago, you would remember that interceptors went up to make contact with the plane. The fact that this was a hijacking should make no difference as NORAD was supposed to have responded long before any hijacking was confirme
====
1. Neither 'fog of war' nor the unprecedented nature of the attack, nor the fact that there were one or more hijackings can explain the delayed response given standard procedure for air emergencies. 2. Air emergencies begin at the first sign that a plane is not responding to commands, not communicating with the FAA towers, heading off course for any period of time, or losing its transponder electronic identification signal. 3. Some combination of all these things happened on all four flights in the early part of the scenario, and all led to increased communication with the planes, cross talk among controllers, and alerts to both FAA, NORAD and military responders before they were identified as hijacked planes or suicide missions. 4. Standard procedure requires an immediate response for any sign of an air emergency, and there is no delay period in scrambling to intercept during these events while FAA or other agencies try to determine the nature of the emergency at a distance. The first purpose of an interception is close assessment of the situation and then either surveillance, assistance or guided flight of the plane in trouble. 5. In the year previous to 9/11 the FAA/NORAD procedures had worked efficiently to respond in a timely fashion to 67 air emergencies. 6. Normal scramble times of between 6 and 10 minutes upon notification, which happens very soon after the first controller sights signs of trouble or miscommunication, because lives are at stake, were stretched to periods of over an hour and NORAD planes got no guidance toward their targets once in the air. 7. Additional scramble and defense procedures to protect P-56, the air space over the White House and Capitol, guided by the National Capitol Area Regional Communication Center, now located in Herndon, VA were not activated that day, despite radar alerts of an unidentified plane entering the restricted Air Defense Identification Zone 50 miles out from DC. 8. Additional planes and NORAD bases could have been tasked, including bases in Canada, northern Virginia, New Jersey and other Air National Guard sites closer to both New York and Washington than the Otis AFB and Langley AFB NORAD sites used. Based on a call from the Secret Service, planes from Andrews AFB were scrambled after the Pentagon was hit. 9. The scrambled planes were sent up too late to intercept the New York attack planes, but not to intercept Flight 77. 10. DOT Secretary Norman Minetta's testimony about a conversation between an unidentified young man and Vice President Cheney in the White House command room concerning Flight 77's approach into restricted space is consistent with a stand down order, but not a shoot down order. 11. The reported shoot down order did not follow down the chain of command, if given, which would normally result in disciplinary action. 12. The military and NORAD were alerted very early in the scenario by phone calls from FAA controllers to military bases, through phone bridges with FAA and other agencies, and through their own liaisons stationed at the FAA command centers involved, yet they did not respond in a timely fashion.

The NORAD timelines provided the 9-11 Commission all begin when the FAA officially notified the NEADS (North East Air Defense System) HQ in Rome, New York at 8:37:52 AM.

But the FAA air traffic controllers at the Boston Center, shortly after realizing they had a hijacking, first attempted to notify both the Massachusetts ANG at Otis AFB at Cape Cod and the 177th NJANG wing at the Atlantic City Airport in Pomona, Egg Harbor Township, New Jersey.

According to the Staff Statement #17 'Improving Homeland Defense,' released during the June 17th public hearing, 'Boston Center did not follow the routine protocol in seeking assistance through the prescribed chain of command. In addition to making notification within the FAA, Boston Center took the initiative, at 8:34, to contact the military through the FAA's Cape Cod facility. They also tried to obtain assistance from a former alert site in Atlantic City, UNAWARE IT HAD BEEN PHASED OUT (emphasis added). At 8:37:52, Boston Center reached NEADS. This was the first notification received by the military – at any level ˆ that American 11 had been hijacked.'

< www.9-11commission.gov/hearings12/staff_statement_17.pdf p.5 >

When that first call came in from FAA Boston Center to the 177th NJANG, there were two F-16s on the tarmac ready to take off, which if armed, could have easily intercepted the second hijacked plane UA 175, which entered New Jersey airspace four minutes flying time from Atlantic City.

Jack White, the former Facility Manager, Air Traffic Control Command Center of the FAA, '∑The hijackings should have been reported by the controllers up their management chain to the regional operations centers. The regional operations centers should have passed the information to the Washington Operations Center. The Operations Center should have advised the FAA official assigned the responsibility of coordinating military assistance. I cannot say that during the attacks of 9/11 my personal understanding of the process was crystal clear, but I did know that the request for military assistance had to come from headquarters.'
==================
Transportation Secretary Norman Minetta told the Commission that he went to the White House Situation Room and heard Cheney being asked by an aide about such an order at regular intervals as Flight 77 was approaching the Pentagon, evoking an angry response from Cheney confirming the order to shoot the plane down just moments before it hit the target. Even without such a shootdown order, a number of standard interception strategies should have been carried out long before the plane approached DC airspace or the Pentagon.

NORAD testimony revealed that after the Pentagon was hit Secret Service agents at the White House called Andrews AFB directly asking for them to put up a defense to Flight 93 or other aircraft, and Andrews responded at that point. NORAD’s testimony about “the fog of war” suggested that “confusion” within the military played a key role in the failure to intercept. In fact, Joint Chiefs Chairman Myers, is on record as saying that the Pentagon’s “crisis-action team was up” at 8:50 am, just after the first attack. This means that the FAA, the secret service, NORAD, and the Pentagon were all in constant communication with one another, and had access to every radar screen in the country. Why did they wait another 35 minutes before launching any intercept planes? There should have been no need for the Secret Service to call Andrews AFB directly, when the acting commander of the Air National Guard, stationed at Andrews is an integral part of that “crisis-action team.”
===============
9/11 Commission Member: Sir....according to NORAD guidelines, when a plane is hijacked or when the FAA loses communication with the pilot, or when a plane goes off course by more than 5 miles, NORAD is to send up an interceptor immediately to make contact with the plane and escort them to the nearest airport if need be. So why did NORAD wait over 40 minutes after Flight 77 went off course, and over half an hour after being notified by the FAA that Flight 77 had been hijacked before sending up an interceptor?
====================
More lies and changing stories from NORAD:

GEN. ARNOLD: Thank you, sir, and I will try to do that to the best of my ability. And perhaps General McKinley has some data that he could shed light on, because I have been retired a little while, and do not have access to the staff for some of the very specifics on that. But I will try to do my best.
As you know from previous testimony from General Eberhardt to Congress, we were in the middle of a NORAD exercise at that particular time, which means that basically our entire staff was focused on being able to do the air operations center mission, which was our job to do. We had just come out of a video teleconference with the NORAD staff and with our folks at that particular time, when I was handed a note that we had a possible hijacking at Boston center, and it had come from the Northeast Air Defense Command, Colonel Bob Mahr (ph), who is commander up there, and he had requested that I call him immediately. And I was upstairs in our facility, immediately went downstairs, picked up the phone, asking on the way to my staff, "Is this part of the exercise?" Because quite honestly, and frankly we do do hijacking scenarios as we go through these exercises from time to time. But I realized that it was not. This was real life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theSaiGirl Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Laughable absurdity..
from "hack89":
"what would the military be defending the Pentagon from? There is no hostile nation that could reach DC with aircraft so there was(and is) no military threat. The idea that the Pentagon would be defended against airliners is laughable when you consider that it sits next to a major airport with airliner flying nearly overhead around the clock. An airliner in the flight path to National airport could alter course and crash into the Pentagon in a matter of seconds - how do you reasonably defend against that? And how do you do it in a manner that guarantees that no innocent passengers would be killed by accident?
I question your belief that prior to 9/11 the DC airspace was heavily defended and would ask that you prove it with some evidence"

Don't you get it, hack89 ?

If you were going to hijack a plane from Dulles and crash it into the Pentagon, White House, Capitol, CIA headquarters .... whatever ... would you expect to fly it all the way in from KENTUCKY thru OHIO ... giving the USAF and NORAD plenty of time to scramble ?

The FAA and NORAD supposedly already knew that multiple "hijackings" were in progresss by 9:00 AM at the very latest - that's when the North Tower got hit...
Yet they couldn't defend DC by 9:30 ?
Yet they didn't already have air defenses over the nation's capital mobilized and ready ?
Ridiculous.

They don't even try to argue that they were "confused" by the various drills and war-game exercises going on that morning (which were mentioned briefly by the Kean-Hamilton Whitewash Commission.)

So we either have a total breakdown/stand-down of NORAD re: their standard operating procedure to defend the capital ....
or probably... there was NO FLIGHT 77 hitting the Pentagon.
That's what increasingly appeas to be the case...
Looks more like missile damage anyway, from the photos.

Please.....try something better.
Your last remark make you sound silly..




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I knew you had no evidence hence the volume.
Show me a single example of us fighter intercepting airliners over US soil (not water). You will be unable to. Why don't you can the rhetoric and provide some proof?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. What real hijackers would do
"If you were going to hijack a plane from Dulles and crash it into the Pentagon, White House, Capitol, CIA headquarters .... whatever ... would you expect to fly it all the way in from KENTUCKY thru OHIO ... giving the USAF and NORAD plenty of time to scramble?"
You would fly it to the Ohio border because there is a radar gap there. Then you would turn off the transponder, descend to VFR altitude and exit the radar gap flying in the opposite direction, so that ATC would have trouble finding you. You can't attack immediately after departing from the airport because you have to give all the flights a good chance to get in the air before the first one crashes or the second plane is hijacked - because you have to assume the authorities may start grounding planes once this happens.

The hijackers are much smarter than you think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Smart hijackers
But then why were they so smart to fly signifcantly slower on returning to the Pentagon (take off at 8:20, turn around prior to 8:56 and crash at 9:37)?
And how could they have known when they arrive in the radar gap?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. 3 Points
(1) It did not return to the Pentagon. American 77 did not depart from Ronald Reagan National by the Pentagon, but from Dulles, which is west of DC, so the return leg was longer than the leg out.
(2) It reached the Pentagon at 9:35 and circled it.
(3) I don't know when the midpoint of the turn is. Why do you think it is 8:56? Even if the midpoint of the turn is 8:56 that makes it 36 minutes out and 39 minutes back. Given that it's longer, this is really no big deal.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. 8:56
According to Paul Thompson's Timeline the U-turn started before 8:56.
It might be a big deal if you consider that the plane can go considerably faster than the normal cruising speed and that every minute counts as you attack Washington.
And how did they know being in the airplane when they just arrived in the radar gap?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Midpoint
If you're measuring the legs out and back, then you have to measure them to and from the midpoint of the turn. Even if the midpoint is 8:56, then the difference is only 3 minutes and the return leg is longer, which accounts for this difference. I'm sure a plane can go faster than the usual cruising speed, but exceeding it may attract undue attention, which is one reason for them to keep to it.

"And how did they know being in the airplane when they just arrived in the radar gap?"
Maybe they had a map and looked out the window. Maybe they figured it out on the recon flights.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I don't understand
"I'm sure a plane can go faster than the usual cruising speed, but exceeding it may attract undue attention, which is one reason for them to keep to it."
As they were not visible to the radar whom they should worry about besides the air defense and against air fighters there is only one solution: speed!

"Maybe they had a map and looked out the window. Maybe they figured it out on the recon flights."
Well, everytime I fly at cruising altitude I can look out as much as I want but I fail to localise exactly where I am.
Btw how big is the radar gap? How long would it have taken for an airplane to cross it flying normal cruising speed?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. They were visible to primary radar
but not to secondary radar - there was a skin return, but no transponder information. Besides, when the plane descended to VFR altitude, it couldn't go at it's top speed without running the risk of breaking up.

I don't know how big the radar gap is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Yes, it is ridiculous
That the first plane which eventually hit the WTC was known to have been hijacked at 8:14 and that the Pentagon was hit at 9:38 with no known air defense to intercept. They also changed their stories. Bush apologists can spin it any way they want, but it looks very bad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. ATC didn't know
American 11 was hijacked at 8:14. Boston ATC figured it out at about 8:25. I don't thinks that's real fast, but I don't find it particularly suspicious. 11 minutes doesn't make much difference anyway - if the 9/11 Commission is right (and I really doubt it on this issue) and United 93 wouldn't have been shot down had it reached Washington, then the FAA management and NORAD brass should all committ seppuku.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. You are right - incompetence and poor judgment does look bad
it just does not automatically equal a conspiracy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well, when incompetence is not thoroughly investigated
it causes some to question whether a conspiracy took place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Exactly. NO Free Rides.
We cannot afford to have a "they're bad but not THAT bad attitude".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. You are right to question...
but for many on this board it irrefutable proof of conspiracy with no other possible explanation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. This is simply not believable:
By 9:49 three aircraft had been crashed into buildings, the fourth was
known to have been hijacked, the FBI was in communication with the
recipients of phone calls from passengers. And according to the 9/11
Commission, FAA Command Center says: Uh, do we want to think about,
uh, scrambling aircraft ?

FAA HQ says: Uh, God, I don't know.

Command Center saysz; Uh, that's a decision somebody's gonna have to
make probably, in the next ten minutes.

FAA HQ says: Uh, ya know, everybody just left the room.
<9/11 Commission Report, 6/17/04>

This is 13 minutes since Cleveland flight control had asked the
Command Center in vain to contact NORAD about Flight 93.

Since FAA presumably knows that scrambling aircraft does not
necessarily mean shooting down flight 93, what is their excuse for
being so reluctant to call in NORAD?

There's too much unbelievable stuff. And maybe the coverup is for
relatively innocent reasons: They destroyed the WTC steel to hide the
evidence of explosives because an al Qaeda bombing would be
embarrassing to Marvin Bush's security company. They won't release
the Pentagon tapes because they don't want the attack video to go into
the public domain for young arabs to snort and drool over. They lied
about notifying NORAD about flight 93 and lied about the time of its
crash because they don't want to admit that they shot it down just as
the passengers were regaining control of the plane.

The coverups lead to suspicion--as they should.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Yet if it was so straightforward..
you would think that 4 years later there would be more facts yet we seem to be plowing the same ground over and over again. No names, no detailed technically sophisticated theories supporting any CT, no independent forensic evidence of explosives, no nothing. Just suspicions - and you know as well as I do that it will take more than suspicions to move the US public.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. no independent forensic evidence of explosives?
The FEMA Appendix C metallurgist's report shows a steel I-beam turned
to scrolls of steel foil. The PhD metallurgist, the PhD materials
scientist, and the PhD Fire Engineer could not explain the sulfidative
attack. They called for further investigation, and AFAIK there never
was any.

You'd think that four years later there would be more facts? Why would
you think that? Four years of coverups, four years of destruction of
evidence.

The Firemen's interviews on the explosions are something new in the last
few months.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Sulfides = gypsum
we have discussed this point many time over - take the time to research how they make gypsum.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Sulfides = gypsum
Then why are the PhD metallurgist, the PhD materials scientist, and the
PhD fire engineer mystefied by the sulfidative erosion? And why has
this phenominon not been observed in previous building fires?

Dr. Jonathan Barnett [email protected]

Dr. Ronald R. Biederman

Dr. R. D. Sisson, Jr. [email protected]



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Perhaps because they asked the question first..
and then investigated it? If all the answers are known, why would they need to do any tests in the first place.

Secondly, please show me how sufides are proof of explosives? You do realize that modern plastic explosives and their detonators do not use sulphur?

How many skyscrapers have burned, collapsed and then exposed the wreckage to intense heat in burning rubble piles for a couple of months?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Two Points
1) The questions remained AFTER the investigation. That's why they
wanted to do further studies. AFAIK the studies were not continued.
Despite their point that continued studies were vital to an
understanding of building safety, which was NIST's mandate, NIST did not
even incorporate their findings into its report.

2) The hypothesis of sulfidative attack was used to explain the erosion
of the steel I-beams to scrolls of foil. They did not articulate the
unthinkable (but undeniable) possibility that the erosion was due to
oxidative attack. Explosive molecules are all about delivering the
oxygen.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Ok..
so what is the significance of the erosion?

How do you eliminate the possibility of gypsum as the source of the erosion?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-05 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. all planes
after the planes hit the WTC all planes were ordered to return to their points of origin or if they were more than half way to their destination to land ASAP.

it was probably thought that the flight was returning to its point of origin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
38. Nonsense. Jeepers. "Flight 77" was LOST by the ATCs!
And I put flight 77 in parentheses because I don't think it ever took off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC