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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 06:43 AM
Original message
Question: What happened to the Pentagon crash bodies?
First of all, I should admit that I have never believed the "no plane" theory about the Pentagon crash. But I was reading an interview with David Ray Griffin, who I generally find very convincing, and was shocked that he subscribes to the "no plane" theory.

Then I thought, if there was a plane then there had to have been bodies. Bodies are routinely and almost always recovered from ordinary airplane crashes. And although the plane hit a building, the Pentagon, there was nothing comparable to the fire and collapse of the WTC that made body recovery difficult.

So here's a simple question: Were all the passenger bodies recovered? Here in NYC, the Fire Dept and construction crews were extraordinarily respectful for months after 9/11. Everytime they discovered a body or even body part (especially of a firefighter) all work halted and the body was solemnly carried out of the site with a flag.

I don't remember any such ceremonies at the Pentagon.

Then I googled "pentagon bodies recovered" expecting to find routine news reports about the recovery of all the passenger bodies.

Instead I got this shocking report from PBS Newshour from a few days after 9/11. It states that the passenger bodies and Pentagon military casualties were burned beyond recognition and not expected to be recovered identified.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec01/forens...

"At the Pentagon, most of the bodies of 64 aboard the American Airlines jet and another 124 in military offices were often burned beyond recognition. Clearly many remains will never be recovered, and identifying what can be recovered, much of it in mere fragments, will be a nearly unimaginable task."

I am stupified by this. Compared to the WTC, the Pentagon was essentially an ordinary plane crash, from which bodies are ordinarily recovered, mostly in tact or in identifiable parts. Does anyone know whether the bodies were recovered and if not, why not????
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good question.
If you think flight 77 hit the Pentagon, it is a matter of faith that either burned bodies strapped to seats were recovered OR that the bodies were almost completely incinerated. It is one of those two, I'm never sure which argument they use.

However, there are no photos of plane seats in the Pentagon, no witness reports of seats, and precious little information to support the idea that bodies from the plane were recovered.

They did do a DNA analysis, and supposedly matched all the passengers. But I take that with a grain of salt.

This lack of information about bodies is one reason I think the idea that flight 77 hit the Pentagon is a BIG LIE.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The PBS article on DNA analysis ...
The PBS Newshour article says that all the DNA analysis of Pentagon victims was to be performed by the military -- not exactly a disinterested source.

"All remains recovered from the Pentagon are being taken by helicopter or truck to Dover Air Force base in Delaware. That's the site of a large mortuary facility created for use in wartime. There, experts are using various scientific methods to establish identity, such as matching fingerprints, dental records and X-rays. And on all remains removed from the Pentagon, they'll also use another powerful instrument of analysis-- DNA, the genetic material that distinguishes one person from another."
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Apparently some staff from Smithsonian Istitute were involved?
Edited on Sat Aug-13-05 09:41 AM by philb
apparently same one's that worked on the Waco fire DNA assessment.

But given the history of some of those involved from Administration regarding truthfulness, how can one determine where remains were found. For any of the sites?

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janedoe Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. With the DNA analysis, what data were they comparing it to?
Last I checked, DNA doesn't show name, address, home phone... etc.

How many relatives are needed for a determination? or How many residences did they collect samples from to compare? (e.g. hair brush left on the dresser) How did they locate the homes of everyone?

Did all of the passengers of flight 77 have a correct address in the system? Is their next of kin listed in the system?

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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. re: DNA Analysis
How many relatives are needed for a determination? or How many residences did they collect samples from to compare? (e.g. hair brush left on the dresser) How did they locate the homes of everyone?

Right on.
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janedoe Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. So, how were the four "terrorists" on flight 77 identified?
demodewd, thanks for your response!

The names of the "hijackers" weren't on the passenger list. If the "hijackers" used stolen identification, the fake names wouldn't have identified them. So, how were they identified ...and by 11:00 am on 9/11/01?

Did 9/11 officials go to the actual homes of the "hijackers" and speak with the next of kin? Perhaps when they knocked on the door, they could even have met the hijackers... and taken a sworn statement.
(At least, that would give them a body to correctly match with a name.) :woohoo:



Seriously, how were the flight 77 "hijackers" identified (in the official story)? I don't remember hearing about any cell-phone-video transmisions from 20,000 feet or even 8,000 feet. Or, were they identified by a stewardess calling in with the statement "He has dark hair?" Or did Barbara Olson identify them and relay their names in her phone call?

That almost instant identification of the "19 hyjackers" is one of the things that's bothered me most about the 911 story. Did the 9/11 commission verify these identities? If so, how?

In this video, you mainly hear the voices of two people (one yelling, one screaming). Do you think that just 30 minutes later, when they were given the names of the "19 hijackers," they even questioned it?

How does this compare to classic techniques of brainwashing?

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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Hijackers, etc.
The DNA identification specifically avoided the hijackers and made no attempt to identify them - they just figured that the leftover bodies must have been the hijackers. The names used for the hijackers were taken from the manifest (which has never been published). Obviously, some/all the hijackers were not who they appear as on the manifest - Salem al-Hazmi is still alive. Also, the original list of hijackers contains a name (Mansour Khaled) which was rapidly deleted and replaced by Hani Hanjour. MK never reappeared on the list of victims - he just disappeared from the manifest altogether.

The Commission didn't verify the identities, they just took the manifest names, even though 6 of them were obviously false.

Amazingly, the names of the people who tried to hijack United 23 that day (it was also flying from Boston to LA, but was recalled just before takeoff) have never been published (as far as I know). If they were using their real names, shouldn't the public be told what they are? Or shouldn't they be at least be arrested and sent to Gitmo for waterboarding?
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Most of the dead people
actually worked at the Pentagon, so I guess they had there addresses and phone numbers. Airlines have procedures for contacting relatives in case of disaster, so they just could have used those.

If the corpse identifications of the victims were faked, why not fake the hijacker identifications as well? They could just say they got some DNA during their investigations, at least for one or two of the alleged hijackers.
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. John Judge says
About a friend of his who helped clean the Pentagon up:
"She was taken with other ground crew and attendants who worked that route to see the damage at the Pentagon, and she recognized parts of the plane she had flown so often.

There was rubble and remains despite your claims. She was shown autopsy photos of her fellow crew members, including the severed arm of her best friend at work, which she recognized from the bracelet she wore."
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/notAllCeq...
If you believe his word on the missiles, shouldn't you believe his word on American 77?

They did not match "all the passengers". They identified all but five of the victims:
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/stripe/6_48/national_new...
Given that they made no attempt whatsoever to identify the hijackers (they just figured they were the left-over bodies), can't you see where the fix is? I've seen statements by HH's family in the press - I'm sure they'd be willing to give a DNA sample, but they were never asked and neither were the other supposed hijackers' families. Hell, Salem al-Hazmi is still alive, so I guess they could get a sample directly from him.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Anyone see any interior damage signs at Pentagon of serious fire damage?
The collapsed section photos don't appear to show much fire damage.

Neither do the photos of damage on the Desmoulins web site.
His web site does an assessment of damage in various internal areas.

But remember that Eric Bart said the plane was exploded before it hit the wall, and shaped charges or bunker buster used to get the remains into the building. And Desmoulins supports this since he documents radioactivity in the debris(DU). But there should have been some remains irrespective of exactly what happened.

I don't have a definate strong opinion about what happened. Except that there was a massive cover-up underway from the first minute of the event.
http://www.flcv.com/coverup.html

Also, did anyone ever go through the photos to determine whether the plane could have hit where it is attributed to hit, given the location of tall light poles, trailers, spools,etc. Some claimed there were some tall poles that were problematic and somehow not hit.
And that jet backblast effects perhaps not consistent with the scene.



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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. re: collapsed section
The collapsed section photos don't appear to show much fire damage.
Especialy the area leading and progressing north of the plane's flight path through the three rings.
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. Stolen Identities.
Revealed: the Men With Stolen identities.

snip

The other two men accused of being terrorists are Salem Al-Hamzi and Ahmed Al-Nami. Mr Al-Hamzi is 26 and had just returned to work at a petrochemical complex in the industrial eastern city of Yanbou after a holiday in Saudi Arabia when the hijackers struck. He was accused of hijacking the American Airlines Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon.

He said: "I have never been to the United States and have not been out of Saudi Arabia in the past two years." The FBI described him as 21 and said that his possible residences were Fort Lee or Wayne, both in New Jersey.

more@link
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
6. Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77

snip

A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence, but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. It is my opinion that the monsters who planned this crime made a mistake by not including Arabic names on the original list to make the ruse seem more believable.

When airline disasters occur, airlines will routinely provide a manifest list for anxious families. You may have noticed that even before Sep 11th, that airlines are pretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcount before takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me, that five Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons.
This is the list provided by American of the 56 passengers:

On September 27th, the FBI published photos of the hijackers of Flight 77:

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), does a miraculous job and identified nearly all the bodies on November 16th 2001.

more@link
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Pentagon crash was anything but "ordinary"
A thin aluminum tube moving over 350mph hit a reinforced concrete structure. That's a lot different than hitting a normal building.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. What about hitting the ground at 350 mph?
Most plane crashes involve planes hitting the ground or mountains and the bodies are recoverable.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Flight 77
I'm not sure Dr. Griffin actually espouses the "No-Boeing at the
Pentagon" theory, though he defends it. I didn't take it seriously
until Dr. Griffin pointed out that the mere sighting of an AA jetliner
in the vicinity of the Pentagon by no means proves that it crashed in
there.

John Judge says his stewardess friend saw wreckage inside the Pentagon
late in September--saw curtains, upholstry, carpeting. Why no pictures?

If the plane vaporized, where did they get the DNA?

The report with the four civilian engineers attached noted that the
damage to the Pentagon wall (not the hole) was much narrower than the
projected width of the 757; they had to postulate that part of the right
wing was torn off by hitting a generator and part of the left wing was
torn off by hitting to ground to explain it.

The cable reels should have been blasted away by jet exhaust. The
only way I can explain their location is that they must have been
right up against the pentagon wall, so the engine quit functioning at
the same moment it started to blast them.

In any case, Dr. Griffin says at the end of the Madison lecture that
the 757/missile point is moot because the failure of the Pentagon to
deploy its SAM batteries in self defense shows complicity right there.
But the authority for the presence of the SAMs appears to be John
Judge's personal anecdotes.







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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. White House has surface to air missiles & Fl77 went by there
How could they know which building was the target until it hit?

But there was also plenty of time for fighters from Andrews or other bases to intercept the plane.

http://www.flcv.com/offcom77.html
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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Vaporisation, etc.
I think the vaporisation claim was made up by the French press to counteract Meyssan's original claim. I don't agree with Meyssan, but I seriously doubt the plane could have vaporised.

The cable spools were definitely not up against the Pentagon wall after the plane hit. The nearest spool was 25 feet away.
This guy:
http://www.911review.com/errors/pentagon/obstacles.html
says
"No-757-crash theorists have argued that the large spool closest to the building, if not and other spools, could not have remained standing after being overflown by just a few feet because the jetliner's wake turbulence would have knocked them over. However, this argument makes assumptions without supporting them. How heavy were the spools? How strong is a 757's wake turbulence near ground level? Furthermore the possibilities that spools may have rolled in the plane's wake, or that the one spool may have been secured to the ground, invalidate this argument."

I believe JJ when he says he saw SAM batteries in the 1950s. However, they are certainly not visible and I haven't come across any later reports. They may have been removed when traffic to the nearby airport increased, after the cold war ended or just generally as a part of cost-cutting measures. In addition, if they were put there in the cold war they may well be directed against high-flying bombers and intercontinental missiles and may not necessarily be usable against a plane coming in a ground level. Further, if the pilot knew the missiles were switched off, how come he stayed in airspace usually used by planes coming in to RRWNA until he was at tree-top height and then brought the plane in under the radar? It strikes me that he was performing the strange approach to avoid the missiles.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Hitting a reinforced concrete wall is much different.
Additionally, most planes that hit the ground don't do so at a 90-degree angle, so a portion of the force is dissipated.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. DNA analysis..
I think I read it here somewhere that both of these things could not have happened: either the bodies were all but vaporized b/c of the extreme heat from the explosion, in which case no DNA analysis could have been done because it's not possible on tissue exposed to such extreme heat, OR there were intact bodies/body parts on which analysis was done. If the latter case, where were the bodies?

I'm sorry. I know I haven't explained this very well. I have no expertise in terms of DNA analysis. Just passing on what I read.... for what it's worth.

IMO, no plane carrying passengers impacted the Pentagon. Missile or global hawk drone maybe.

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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Didn't someone just say they saw flight curtains in the Pentagon
So the fires couldn't have been very hot.
And I haven't seen evidence of much severe flame damage inside the Pentagon. See the collapse photos.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. If you look at
Edited on Sun Aug-14-05 01:03 AM by truth2power
the Painful Deceptions section of the Confronting the Evidence DVD, one of the pictures of the Pentagon site shows a tall (what looks to be)wooden stool with an open book on it. It's sitting at the very edge of the hole made by the alleged plane. Neither stool nor book shows evidence of fire damage.

There's no way this could be the case when the aircraft, seats, luggage, passengers etc. were all supposedly vaporized.

Nope! No passenger craft went into the Pentagon. Ya' know..I've seen accounts and pictures of many plane crashes over a lot of years. Never, ever have I read of an account of an aircraft that just vaporized. Vanished. No bodies, nothing. I don't care what it slammed into.

That whole Pentagon thing was a hoax. Watch "Painful Deceptions".


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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. In regards to the fire
In all the pictures I've seen of the Pentagon on 9-11, I don't recall ever seeing more then 2 or 3 fire engines fighting the blaze? That always seemed odd to me considering their claims that the fire was so extensive and hot that very little remained of the victims. But then again, very little of the official story makes sense anyway.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. That pic is NOT of the hole made by the plane.
It's a post-collapse photo showing parts of the building that were exposed AFTER the fire and collapse that were not involved in the fire itself.

Using this pic to prove "no big fire" is a common tactic of some of the more radical CTists...
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
20. Outdated article
A more recent article is here:

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/stripe/6_48/national_new ...

"We immediately called in regional medical examiners from as far away as San Diego to participate," Ensign said. A total of 12 forensic pathologists, assisted by two AFIP staff pathologists, headed the investigation team. Also arriving at Dover during those early critical hours were two other key AFIP groups: forensic scientists from OAFME's Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory and oral pathologists from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology.

AFDIL scientists ensured data systems and records were available to make DNA identifications, while the oral pathology group created a triage area to conduct positive dental identifications. Contacts were also made with family services in each branch of the military to obtain ante-mortem information and reference material. Mortuary operations were fully underway by the evening of Sept. 13. AFIP used a well-defined and tested system for conducting the identifications of the Pentagon victims. When remains arrived at the morgue, a scanning device searched for the presence of unexploded ordnance or metallic foreign bodies. A computerized tracking system assigned numbers to each victim for efficient tracking.

FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices and conducted fingerprint identifications. Forensic dentistry experts from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology performed dental charting and comparison with ante-mortem dental records. Full-body radiographs followed to document skeletal fractures and assist in the identification process, followed by autopsy inspection.

At autopsy, forensic pathologists determined the cause and manner of death, aided by forensic anthropologist Dr. William C. Rodriguez in determining the race, sex, and stature of victims. A board-certified epidemiologist managed the tracking system for data collected during the autopsy process, and tissue samples were collected for DNA identification and further toxicology studies. Forensic photographers, essential to any forensic investigation, documented injuries and personal effects. Mortuary specialists then embalmed, dressed, and casketed remains prior to release to next-of-kin.

For eight days a full complement of AFIP forensic specialists worked 12-hour shifts to complete the operation.

All but five of the 189 people who died in the Pentagon crash were identified.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/pentagon-attack.htm

According to the above site, the remains of the hijackers were separated from the unidentified remains. How? It's my understanding that the hijackers, five in all, were discovered closer to the entry hole in the Pentagon, while all others in the back of the plane were found closer to the A-E punchout hole. I don't know if I can find that chart again - it's in one of my precious PDF files.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-05 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. some would say the bodies atomized on impact along with most of the
plane
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