London 21/7 - Why this restraint by terrorists all of a sudden?

[rman]

They can very well scare us and kill us at the same time, they have done so on more then a few occasions.

And now all of a sudden they are showing restraint in killing us?

This does not sound the least bit plausible to me.

[janedoe]

1. See? The Patriot act is working. So, we'd better make it permanent.

Well, they just voted on one part of it. It was a straight party-line vote, with the independent going with the dems.
(HR 3199)

Doesn't it make you wonder why there is a "terrorism" event, the day the Patriot act is to be made permanent?

So, I'm sure they are keeping a list of everyone on DU, don't you think?

[spooked911]

2. this can't be a coincidence-- that this attack comes on the day when we

are voting on the patriot act. These attacks are a message, no doubt.

crap.

[janedoe]

17. I don't get it. Why does the Patriot Act need to be permanent?

I think I know the answer, but I'd like to know why those who urgently need the PATRIOT ACT made final DO NOT want another "sunset" renewal. If they think they need the PATRIOT ACT, they have it and can use it. So, what's the problem? Why is it so urgent to make it permanent? (And with straight party loyalty!)

For me, this seems very telling.

If it's so important to keep us "safe," why isn't there any provision in the PA to punish incompetence? (e.g. "Stand-down orders")
We are told that there were many significant intellignece failures that led to 911. If there had not been intelligence failures, we wouldn't have had a problem. We'd have been "safe." Isn't that the objective? Wouldn't reprimands be a lot more effective than removing our civil liberties?

Isn't this a no-brainer?

[spooked911]

3. Perhaps the intelligence agencies are doing their jobs now

These new attacks also remind me of the weaker follow-up attacks in the US after 9/11, such a the shoe-bomber guy-- also like the anthrax attacks which were scary but not very lethal

[rman]

5. seriously: in what way?

Intelligence agencies did not manage to prevent these attacks, but they did manage to get the terrorists to use smaller bombs? Or the intelligence agencies took the explosives so the terrorists where left with only the detonators?
All sounds very implausible to me. Do you have a more plausible explanation as to in what way and how the intelligence agencies did their job?

[janedoe]

6. They actually caught somebody!

They led one guy off in handcuffs. Another one was chased out of the subway and into a hospital (which was unfortunate), but they may have gotten that one, too.

Dead guys don't talk or say who hired them. These guys aren't dead (yet). The one they caught and put in handcuffs was at 10 Downing street.

(Hmmm... collecting his pay, or requesting a budget increase?)

Let's hope they keep these guys alive and get them to talk.

[Last Lemming]

20. I believe they have already released one

but sorry, don't have the URL

[spooked911]

10. sorry-- I wasn't being very clear

I was thinking that this was synthetic terror, where the intelligence agencies (i.e. MI-5) set-up these attacks-- but this time the attacks were more of a warning than anything lethal. When I said doing their job, I was being somewhat facetious, in that this time the intelligence agencies kept people from being killed, even though they still rigged up the attacks.

The fact is, it doesn't make any sense that these detonator-only devices were set-up by real terrorists, unless they were really lame second-wave attackers. But the other possibility is that these new bombers were set-up even more than the last bombers. We basically need more details.

[rman]

12. no problem, makes sense now

and i agree with your take on the situation.

[StrafingMoose]

4. Interesting detail from...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/21/world/main710566_page1.shtml

McCracken said he spoke to an Italian man who was comforting a woman after the evacuation.

"He said that a man was carrying a rucksack and the rucksack suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open the rucksack," McCracken said. "The man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong. At that point everyone rushed from the carriage."

Yes, you put a bomb in your rucksack, it explodes and "this is wrong".

Maybe it just wasn't supposed to explode right at this moment, yes.... :eyes:

[Ezlivin]

7. If the CIA trained these guys, we need our money back

You don't learn how to make and handle explosives on your own, typically. These terrorists are the result of some kind of training. It's common knowledge that OBL was a CIA trainee as were dozens of other current terrorists.

So are the terrorists now down to using the "gang who couldn't shoot straight" to pull off their attacks or are we seeing much more subtle? (Psy-Ops?)

[John Doe II]

8. What is this?

Police told reporters that a man had threatened to blow himself up and then ran off.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4705117.stm

What's going on today?
Is this the latest form of fanatic suicide bombers?

[spooked911]

9. today's "attacks" are just too bizarre

[janedoe]

11. Get this... a new "surprise amendment" is on the floor, now!

Conyers just stood up to say something (his turn on the schedule), and then was speechless! His turn to talk immediately followed the woman who I think introduced this new amendment. (Shelley Moore Capito, R-WV)

They are proposing a stated punishment for "conspiring to commit" terrorism against any kind of mass transit. (bus, rail, airplane...) "in light of recent events."

Well, the positive side of this is that we wouldn't need to waste time with impeachment hearings.

C-SPAN link, to watch online: http://www.c-span.org/watch/index.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS

[Last Lemming]

21. I think Tony Blair has made it perfectly clear

when he gazed solemnly into the camera and intoned: "The purpose of these attacks are to scare people."

He did have a twinkle in his eye.

[janedoe]

23. It's amazing how much Blair knows the "terrorists" thoughts

If I didn't know better, I'd think Blair actually knows the "terrorists" quite well. Wait. Do I know better?

[seatnineb]

13. My hypothesis.

I am sure that the perpetrators(one of whom has already been caught) of todays attack(21/7) will, when interrogated, emphasize and embellish the link between themselves and the bombers of 7/7,thereby solidifying that story.

They will probably also allude to their mastermind, who will probably be Syrian or Iranian....

And the hype will build up.

[janedoe]

14. Golly! I had't stopped to think about that.

Unfortunately, I think you are right.

Perhaps their contract depends on their keeping with the story they've been given.

[spooked911]

15. I agree-- but haven't you heard about the mastermind they already have?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1702411,00.html

"Top al-Qaeda Briton called Tube bombers before attack
By Zahid Hussain in Islamabad, Daniel McGrory and Sean O’Neill
THE British al-Qaeda leader linked to the London terrorist attacks was being questioned by police in Pakistan last night after the discovery of mobile phone records detailing his calls with the suicide bombers.

Haroon Rashid Aswat has emerged as the figure that Scotland Yard have been hunting since he flew out of Britain just hours before the attacks which killed 56 people.

Aswat, 30, who is believed to come from the same West Yorkshire town as one of the bombers, arrived in Britain a fortnight before the attacks to orchestrate final planning for the atrocity. He spoke to the suicide team on his mobile phone a few hours before the four men blew themselves up and killed fifty-two other people.

Intelligence sources told The Times that during his stay Aswat visited the home towns of all four bombers as well as selecting targets in London."

This guy was known to intelligence agencies and also TRAINED IN THE US?

[janedoe]

16. Bush sees London attacks as reason for Patriot Act

Yep. All they need is "a bad guy," and they're good to go.

Note, this was in the Washington Times.

"Bush sees London attacks as reason for Patriot Act"

President Bush yesterday invoked the terrorist attacks in London as a compelling reason for Congress to renew the USA Patriot Act and for local governments to beef up security on mass-transit systems.

    "As we saw in London, the terrorists are still active and they are still plotting to take innocent life," Mr. Bush told law-enforcement officers in Baltimore. "So my message to the Congress is clear: This is no time to let our guard down, and no time to roll back good laws." ...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050720-102536-4094r.htm

[seatnineb]

31. Thanks Spooked! n/t.

[janedoe]

18. Yikes! about the shoot-to-kill this morning.

It sounds like the "bomber" shot and killed this morning forgot his lines/role.

Dead guys don't talk. To me, it looks like they didn't want him to talke.

[seatnineb]

30. Yup!

And it looks like they arrested someone else today(22/7).

Let the hype begin.

[janedoe]

32. Let the "operation DISTRACTION " begin...

or continue...

[seatnineb]

33. Looks like "operation distraction"...........

........just flew off the rails!

The man shot and killed on a subway car by London police in front of horrified commuters had nothing to do with this month's bombings on the city's transit system, police said Saturday in expressing their regrets. They identified the man as Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian citizen.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050723/ap_on_re_eu/britain_underground_54;_ylt=AteGps5xpq4x2OkKErtqA2.9Q5gv;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[dbeach]

19. be scared is the refrain from the right swingers

be scared give us your money..give us your freedoms..TRUST US!

Except iits kinda hard to trust bush about intelligence issues when he is busy disclosing the names of Inteligence agents

London bombings is now a sure thing to pass legislation..

what ever happened to discussing topics in the open and not hiding in their chambers to revise the Patriot Act..Why all the secrecy??

[janedoe]

24. If it's so important to keep us "safe,"

If it's so important to keep us "safe," why isn't there any provision in the PATRIOT ACT to punish incompetence? (e.g. "Stand-down orders?")

We are told that there were many significant "intelligence failures" that led to the outcome of 911. If there had not been such "intelligence failures," then we wouldn't have had a problem! We'd have been "safe." Umm... Isn't that the objective? Wouldn't reprimands be more appropriate and more effective (not to mention more logical), than removing our civil liberties?
Isn't this a no-brainer?

[dbeach]

29. depends on your defintion of what the word

brain is??

reptilian brain and treason seems to be quite fashionable in londonistan and DC

more terrorist attacks til bush gets the dictators dream
which is martial law and the totalitarian state warned of by Orwell in 1984

Fitzgerald is the wild card here..how deep and reliable is his info regarding rover..or whomever in cheneys office.??.scooter libby woud be a prime candidate for the plame leak??

[StrafingMoose]

22. Weird inconsistancy in normal procedure...

From: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/21/world/main710821.shtml

"They pushed him onto the floor and unloaded five shots into him. He's dead," witness Mark Whitby told the British Broadcasting Corp. "He looked like a cornered fox. He looked petrified."

Hmm, OK. Now, how the hell are you suppose to conduct a true, deep and fair investigation if you push your suspect onto the floor and empty 5 shots into him?

He may be a piece of shit, granted. But he's also a piece of the investigation, as useful as the others.

Unless, he's "just a patsy" ...

:eyes:

[janedoe]

25. But he would have talked.

Dead people don't talk.

They claim his jacket may have been filled with explosives. Were they trying to make his jacket detonate?

[StrafingMoose]

26. I don't think...

those machinations will ever be performed at "police officer on the ground" level.

Cops, CIA/MI6, FBI/MI5 officers are good people, their upper managers are the problems.

[Frederik]

27. Sure, but do we know who

these plain-clothes "police officers" really were? Performing executions like that, in public, is no modus operandi of ordinary British police, as far as I know. I'm sure they have covert, special units from their fight against the IRA.

Most cops and intel officers are good people I'm sure, but there certinly are exceptions to the rule.

[StrafingMoose]

28. point...

"these plain-clothes "police officers" really were?"

That slipped by me for some reason...

[rman]

34. At the risk of me rambling pointlessly

I presume you mean you don't understand the point about "who these plain-clothes "police officers" really were".


Perhaps you only missed the "who"-part of that point, in the subject line.
The point is actually a question:
"do we know who these plain-clothes "police officers" really were?"


I think you're right when you say that "those machinations will ever be performed at "police officer on the ground" level.
Cops, CIA/MI6, FBI/MI5 officers are good people, their upper managers are the problems."

So we could assume (if only for the sake of argument) that whoever shot the guy are not cops, CIA/MI6 or FBI/MI5 officers. Nor is it likely it was their upper level managers who did the shooting

But still the guy was shot execution style, in broad daylight, by people who look like plain-clothes police officers.

So the question arises: if they are not cops, CIA/MI6 or FBI/MI5 officers, then who are they?
Which is the question that Frederic poses.

Of course we don't know who they are, although we do know who they probably are not.
It seems likely they are covert, possibly clandestine.