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warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 06:54 PM
Original message
Chris Matthews, JFK and the lone gunman
Edited on Tue Nov-22-11 07:00 PM by warrior1
Guy on his show with a new book or film says Oswald did it alone.

I don't buy it. Sorry. They wanted him dead.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't buy that either, my senses say conspiracy by a group. n/t
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arthritisR_US Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. coupe de ta, imo n/t
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. unfortunately, your senses don't trump the facts. n/t
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Unfortunately the so called facts have been surrounded by cover up
just like the 911 so called facts.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. No, the facts are there.
It's on you to ignore them.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. If you say so, but many will disagree with you including Russ Baker
who did much research for his book.
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warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. The pristine bullet
Edited on Tue Nov-22-11 06:58 PM by warrior1
found on the gurney that Gov. Connally was on. This is the bullet that hit both of them. Here look this is the picture of said bullet.



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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. That's a full metal jacket bullet.
FMJ bullets are designed to retain their shape through maximum possible penetration. And the 8mm Carcano is a pretty serious rifle round, equivalent to a high powered hunting rifle today.
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. It Was A 6.5 mm Carcano, Not An 8mm.

And I've come to the conclusion that Oswald acted alone. All the conspiracy theories are a bunch of wishful thinking.....
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Whoops, you're right. My memory was off.
The 8mm Carcano is a slightly different round.

And yes, I agree. I think that as much as anything, it's a collective desire to believe that it's not possible that it could be something as small as one man that killed someone who's an American legend. But every bit of scientific evidence has gone to back up the premise that Oswald was the only shooter.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Here's a look at the head of that bullet
CTers don't like this one.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. Funny how carefully the "pristine" bullet had to be photographed to make it look pristine.
If anyone ever needs proof that the liars are on the side of the conspiracy theory, check out the two pictures. The person who took the "pristine" picture had the real bullet to inspect, and knew that it was not pristine, but he carefully positioned it to make it appear pristine. Lied, in other words.

I figure the JFK conspiracy theories are generational. They won't completely die out until the people who just can't admit they were wrong die out.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
54. Except more bullet fragments in Connally's thigh and wrist that missing from that bullet -- !!
But he went to his grave with the stuff still in him!

Connally wasn't exactly an innocent, either -- !!

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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. People don't really want the truth on these kind of things.
That's why they're so willing to believe the "lone nut" theory or the "official" 9/11 story. No one wants to believe how monstrous our leaders can be and have been. The Big Lie and all that.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Unfortunately, I prefer truth rather than BS cover up, and we have seen
cover up in both the JFK assassination and 911 IMO.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. unfortunately, your opinion doesn't trump the facts. n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. And yours doesn't consist of any so why do you bother?
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. awww...got your feelings hurt on your little CT?
Lemme know when you read a book that isn't CT about the assassination.
I suggest either reading Bugliosi or even giving the Warren Comission Report a try.
Here's a fact about JFK and Connally's position in the car.
Enjoy!
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/facts_and_fiction_in_the_...
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. What are you, 12? Talk about projection!
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. That's my experience with a staggering number of otherwise nice and reasonable Americans.
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.
The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political,
economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State
to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie,
and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

- Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. You got it right, but backwards. nt
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Philosopher King Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Mathews discussing JFK, is like my daughter discussing Justin Bieber...except...
she makes more sense.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Yeah, but he wrote a book on JFK.. Ugh I haven't read his book yet, but might just to
understand what he has to say.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Could be because Matthews just wrote a book about JFK and wants to portray himself as some kind of
eggspurt.
Matthews is just as knowledgeable about this subject as he was when he expounded on the WMD's that he thought were in Iraq in February of 2003 when he was on the Phil Donahue Show.

You know, the program one that was cancelled on MSNBC, even though it had the highest ratings of any cable program on MSNBC.
The one that Jon Stewart ridiculed because of low ratings, even though it had the highest ratings of any program on that channel.

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deminks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. My BS meter pinged when Tweety sayuz there are so many conspiracy theories
'cause we lefties just can't stand the thought that a lefty (Oswald was a lefty to Tweety 'cause he was in Russia and a communist) offed someone we loved.

That ranks right up there with magic bullets, Tweety.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
50. Nah, there are so many conspiracy theories...
because people don't want to believe that a loser with a cheap rifle could kill the most powerful man in the world.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
20. They always find airtime for someone who supports the lone nut theory.
Edited on Tue Nov-22-11 07:43 PM by Octafish


They never find airtime for someone who supports a conspiracy. Funny, the facts for most everyone who looks into it happen to support conspiracy.

Now, why would the nation's news media want to do that? Because, they can and it supports the idea that an ORGANIZATION -- a criminal conspiracy, a corrupt collection of officials and plutocrats, a band of traitors -- killed the president and changed the nation's policies. True, from South America, Asia, Europe and Africa to New York, Chicago, Philadelphia and Los Angeles, things were different from Johnson's time to the present.

For more evidence: Consider who foisted WMDs and threats of nuclear attack to get the nation frothing at the mouth and acting like NAZIs. They've done nothing but make money, from Trickle Down to War Inc to stacking the Fed with Goldman Sachs pretty much steady ever since November 22, 1963. All benefitting a corrupt collection of officials and plutocrats -- that .1 percent who collect half the capital gains each year.

Yes. They who have benefitted most over the past 48 years wanted him dead.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Not only what you said, but I think the same things happened to
Bobby Kennedy, and MLK. Total cover up in all cases, just as 911 was.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. DUer Cyrano put it into words for us today...
My uncle was in the middle of Times Square that day

Edited on Tue Nov-22-11 01:31 PM by Cyrano

Anyone who has ever been in NY knows that Times Square never stops moving.

But it did that day.

My uncle told me that as word spread, cars, taxis, pedestrians all stopped and stared at the news crawl running across the old NY Times building at the south end of Times Square.

People were standing in the street with tears running down their eyes. No driver was honking a horn. The world seemed frozen in time.

November 22, 1963 might very well have been the most horrifying day in American history.

But one thing we know for sure. The assassination of John Kennedy was the beginning of the end of democracy in America. And the assassinations of Martin and Bobby sealed our fate. Reagan came along and the masquerade of democracy fell away.

OP: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. and of course the UNRECers are out in force...

certain people trying their hardest to get this thread moved to the dungeon.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. May they abide with the Dude.
For in their pursuit to shout down perspectives they don't like, they show themselves to be most un-democratic.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Actually, none of the facts support the belief in a conspiracy.
There's only the same tired old "evidence" dragged out every time, like the claim that the bullet would have to be magical, even though modern reconstructions show that the shots are entirely--and only--consistent with the evidence as presented. Not to mention the wealth of scientific analysis done on the recordings over the decades, much of it using science completely unknown at the time of the shooting, all of which has been consistent with a single shooter.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #31
47. No, the facts support conspiracy.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. Agree. n/t
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ted Kennedy put the same Warren Commission garbage in his book!
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Ted Kennedy was in on it!
True!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Congratulations!

Job well done!!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Got a page number?
I do understand Ted Kennedy remarked: "There has to be more to it," when asked his thoughts about the lone gunmen who killed two of his brothers.

JFK Quotes by Government Officials
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Page 211
Edited on Tue Nov-22-11 08:48 PM by jberryhill
It figures that you would not have bothered to read what Ted Kennedy wrote about his own brother's death, at a point when Ted Kennedy was well beyond any reprisal:

Late in 1964, Bobby asked me to review the Warren Commissions newly released report on the assassination because emotionally he couldnt do it. The commission had been established by President Johnson seven days after Jack was killed in Dallas, and was charged with determining who had shot Jack, and why. John appointed Earl Warren, the former California governor and chief justice, to chair the commission.When I reached him by telephone, Warren told me he would be glad to give me a briefing and go over the parts of the report that were particularly contentious and likely to generate the most questions from the press and public. I remember the commissions office as large but spare, about half the size of the attorney generals office.Warren gave me a full briefing, as Id requested. I asked many questions. The whole process took about four hours. Afterward, I reported to Bobby that I accepted the commissions report and thought he should too. Bobby agreed readily. He did not want to continue to investigate Jacks death. (page 211)

Now, given that Ted wrote that in 2008/2009, if he had any reason to change his mind, do you think he might have mentioned that?

Your thesis is that Ted Kennedy was either stupid, dishonest, or a coward.

Which is it?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #35
45. Thanks for the page number. The rest about what you said I said is false.
Ted Kennedy survived a plane crash early in 1964 that killed two people and broke his back. He knew what he and his family were up against.

IMFO, what he wrote was for public consumption -- and no where does he say he agreed with the report's conclusion, only that he "accepted the commission's report and thought (RFK) should too."

He was supposed to have been aboard Paul Wellstone's plane that fateful day in 2002. He got off when Wellstone decided to head north to attend a friend's funeral.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. "He knew what he and his family were up against. "

Okay, so your vote is for "coward".

What else was Ted Kennedy manipulated into doing or not doing during the course of his career?

If only the people of Mass. knew about the constant threat he faced. They could have decided not to elect him, so he wouldn't have to live with the constant fear he was in.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. How did Bobby Kennedy feel (JFK's Attorney General)?

We would have found out had he had the chance to become president.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Why then?

Was he afflicted with a speech disorder for five years which prevented him from expressing his view?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Perhaps he knew what he was up against...

As outlined in the forward to the book "Farewell America":

http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-America-Plot-Kill-JFK/dp...

"Originally published in Europe in 1968, this is a once-notorious, now-dated look at John Kennedy's assassination and an excoriation of the American scene in its aftermath. Turner (Rearview Mirror, etc.) explains in his introduction that the book was first published under mysterious circumstances and was "aimed at advancing the 1968 presidential campaign of Robert F. Kennedy," but its U.S. distribution was rapidly curtailed after RFK's death. ... Most of the text is a damning jeremiad, portraying pre-1964 America as a vicious, discriminatory oligarchy controlled by alliances of Big Steel and Big Oil, the military and organized crime, which all had reason to fear JFK's proposed reforms. According to "Hepburn," these interests combined with ultra-right-wing paramilitary groups like the Minutemen and Cuban exile groups to plan the assassination."

Mind you, this was likely RFK's point of view at the time since much of the work is based on the Kennedys' and Sen. Moynihan's secret investigation into the assassination. It sounds like quite a robust conspiracy theory, but it could be simplified perhaps by considering that all paths may go through Nixon: Anti-Castro Cubans, Texas oilmen, the Mafia/CIA, FBI, DIA, the Bay of Pigs and paramilitary groups...these are all discussed in the book.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. And how would becoming president make him able to speak?

Obviously, it didn't work for his older brother.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. The information he uncovered in his investigations?

and being president would give him a platform. He is quoted as saying:

"Subject to me getting elected <President>, I would like to reopen the Warren Commission."
--Senator Robert Kennedy, talking to campaign worker Richard Lubic in San Francisco, David Talbot, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years

According to Robert Kennedy's former press spokesman Frank Mankiewicz, when Robert Kennedy was asked at a campaign appearance, days before his assassination, whether he would reopen the investigation into the death of his brother JFK, he uttered a simple, one-word answer: "Yes."
--David Talbot, Salon, "The Mother of All Cover-Ups," 15 September 2004

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #39
48. David Talbot said RFK was the ''first conspiracy theorist''
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
34. Wow, I am glad they moved this shit where it belongs......
UFOs
9/11 was an inside job
Ghosts
Oswald did not act alone
ESP


All the same type of shit!
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Nathan_Hale Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. Regicide...
by Gregory Douglas

The final straw was Kennedy's direct communication to the Kremlin, bypassing the CIA, after the Cuban Missile Crisis. CIA cold warriors, already not fans of JFK for many, many reasons, called that treason and arranged the killing. In the book is also translation of the KGB's report.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #34
46. To you.
You should read more. You might be amazed at what you learn.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Please send me a book that proves ANY of the things I listed!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. John M. Newman, 'Oswald and the CIA'
Philip Melanson, "Spy Saga"

Jefferson Morley, "Our Man in Mexico"

Gerald D. McKnight, "Breach of Trust"

Those four are very informative in regards to Oswald, his ties to U.S. intelligence agencies, and the cover-up of the criminal conspiracy that took the life of President Kennedy.

If you want to learn about UFOs, you might start with:

J. Allen Hynek, "The UFO Experience"

Jacques Vallee, "Anatomy of a Phenomenon"

David Michael Jacobs, "The UFO Controversy in America"

Good luck with your reading!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. One of those things is not like the others n/t
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-11 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
38. Tweety's old boss, Tip O'Neil came to have his doubts about the official story
In his book, "Man of the House" he wrote:


I was never one of the use people who had doubts or suspicions about the Warren Commission's report on the president's death. But five years after Jack died, I was having dinner with Kenny O'Donnell and a few other people at Jimmy's Harborside Restaurant in Boston, and we got to talking about the assassination. I was surprised to hear O'Donnell say that he was sure he had heard two shots that came from behind the fence.

"That's not what you told the Warren Commission," I said.

"You're right," he replied. "I told the FBI what I had heard, but they said it couldn't have happened that way and that I must have been imagining things. So I testified the way they wanted me to. I just didn't want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family."

"I can't believe it," I said. "I wouldn't have done that in a million years. I would have told the truth."

"Tip, you have to understand. The family-everybody wanted this thing behind them."

Dave Powers was with us at dinner that night, and his recollection of the shots was the same as O'Donnell's. Kenny O'Donnell is no longer alive, but during the writing of this book I checked with Dave Powers. As they say in the news business, he stands by his story.

And so there will always be some skepticism in my mind about the cause of Jack's death. I used to think that the only people who doubted the conclusions of the Warren Commission were crackpots. Now, however, I'm not so sure.


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
56. Good story .....
but never trusted Tip O'Neill --

he and Gephardt decided to not contest Gingrich after his first term

"because Gingrich was in favor of a raise for Congress" -- !! :eyes:


O'Neill would have had to have been completely naive to have believed the

"long nut" story -- especially in DC where so much info was flowing.


Think we also have to understand that the Kennedy family was being threatened

by the power group that did this -- seriously threatened -- and on the one hand

they couldn't be seen encouraging doubts, but on the other they worked to do all

they could to find out what actually happened. And they certainly knew what happened.


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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. I'm not surprised that O'Neil originally went along with the long nut story
but I'll give him credit for repeating what Powers & O'Donnell told him. I agree with you that the family was threatened & I would guess that's why two of the men closest to JFK caved in and just went along with what the FBI told them they saw & heard.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-26-11 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Good to see a repeat of what Powers & O'Donnell actually experienced .....
funny how that worked -- someone like Jean Hill who had no power but her own

convictions re the fusillade of bullets stood up to those who accosted her --

and stood up against the manipulators and intimidators for years --


and yet Powers and O'Donnell were intimidated --

not only by those working for the coup --

but by some mistaken allegiance to the "family" re their desires, which may not

have even been true. We've heard this "the family wants" in regard to many issues

where it made little sense.


I'll agree with you on O'Neill only in my view that he was naive -- more concerned

with his own pleasure and comfort in DC than actually having anything on the ball.

And that did him in with Reagan in office -- he only needed a very slight push to

be toppled.


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
53. ... and what did Matthews say to that? Should I guess?
Too ridiculous at this point to take seriously --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:17 AM
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55. Why would anyone be watching Matthews, anyway??
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