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I think I buy the Warren Report on Oswald being JFKs killer. Convince me otherwise...

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:15 PM
Original message
I think I buy the Warren Report on Oswald being JFKs killer. Convince me otherwise...
The guy was a nutjob...and the theory, that he wanted to start a revolution by killing JFK, thus undermining the trust in the US, makes sense.

But there are these outliers. Things that don't fall into place. Things that make you think twice.

Your thoughts?
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Middle of the cold war and they let him come back here after denouncing...
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 05:19 PM by RagAss
U.S. citizenship and living in the Soviet Union....think again !!!!

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That is one of those "outliers" I was talking about
Ruby is another "outlier"

Like I said, I tend to believe Warren, but there are so many challenges that haven't been addressed, that it is hard to with a straight face...
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
72. Kinda weird going to the USSR
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 11:41 PM by jberryhill
But he wasn't all that intelligent.

The Soviets loved to take in Westerners for propaganda value. On paper, as a marine, he probably looked like a good catch, and he figured he'd be an important person. They figured out he was a doofus and gave him a boring job. So, after he feels he's not getting the recognition he deserves, he decides to come back. The US figures he they can get some intelligence out of him, so we take him back. We find out he's a doofus and he ends up with another boring job.

He wanted to be someone important, but he was a loser.

He is defended by other lone nuts who think they have important inside information. That's not surprising either. Oswald himself was into conspiracy theories.
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. .........
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Ohhh It's in paperback now !!
Didn't even know it .... save a few bucks !



http://www.amazon.com/JFK-Unspeakable-Why-Died-Matters/...

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. That's the most informative of the JFK books. Sums up all the most recent evidence.
Oswald was a patsy as he said.

There's a reason his income tax and CIA records will never be released. he worked for the government.

The gov PAID to bring him back from Russia, where he had accomplished his mission.

There is so much.


I've always noticed 'conservatives' propagate the Oswald Lone Nut theory.Taverner, you've always struck me as a conservative. Why espouse something if you haven't even done your basic reading?
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. Ted Kennedy was a conservative, was he?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Highly unlikely Ted Kennedy supported Warren Report ... despite what he might have said publickly !!
Immediately after the assassination, Ted was involved in a very serious accident

in a private plane -- at least one died in the crash.

Ted was seriously injured -- a back injury.

And many have long presumed that Ted and his family were under threat from forces

keeping the cover up going -- Richard E. Sprague is a good source for much of this

info --

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp7.html
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Maybe it was ancient aliens that did it
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. Do you want to participate in this thread ... or discuss aliens?
Or maybe you just couldn't control the urge to try to be disruptive?

ROFL






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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. Douglass is very late to the game ... "High Treason I/II" and "Crossfire" .... and many others ....
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 06:08 PM by defendandprotect
including Mark Lane were reporting from the first moments after the assassination ---

High Treason by Livingstone -- and Crossfire by Jim Marrs -- and many other reports

came early on and with great validity. Still stand up today ---


Mark Lane asking the immediate question -- "How can you be shot in the front of the head

from the rear?" and his book -- one of the first to come out, as I recall,


And, yes, someone has seen Oswald's income tax and W-2 forms --

Tunnheim Panel -- 1992 JFK Assassiantion Classified Records Act . . .


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


MARK LANE -- 'RUSH TO JUDGMENT' --

Mark Lane (author) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Early career|Kennedy...|Antiwar activism|Work For the...Four weeks after the assassination (December 19) Mark Lane ... and remains one of the most famous books in JFK ... The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Lane_(author) - Cached.More results from en.wikipedia.org


and later his "Plausible Denial" -- which questioned CIA involvement --

especially re E. Howard Hunt --



Many researchers have been involved in unocvering the RW assassination of JFK -- and the

taking of our people's government -- too many to recall here --

But keep in mind the very night of the assassination, many in DC at various gatherings were

mentioning the names of the polotters --

Someone elstimated also that about 100 lawyers were killed in DC immediately after --

and many other witnesses, everywhere.

Takes a lot of money to keep something like that covered up -- and it also takes having a

president in the White House on your side, with much to lose.


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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Jim Garrison was a paranoid, anti-homosexual fool.
He's responsible for all this JFK conspiracy crap.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes - this is why I think the whole trial of Clay Shaw was BS
Garrison was wrong

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. You haven't read Garrison's book, have you?
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 06:36 PM by Mimosa
I doubt you've read Jim Marrs' crossfire (excellent) or James Douglass 'JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters".

To me it seems you're just posting talking points you don't seem to even have background about.

Are you aware that Richard Helms, Director of the CIA in 1978, swore on oath before the House Select Committee on Assassinations that Clay Shaw was indeed a contract employee of the CIA during the 1960s and when Kennedy was assassinated?

Shaw had denied being employed by CIA during his trial.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. this is the 'debate' that never ends
Yes, there are lots of books on both sides of the issue.

Clay Shaw was a "contract employee," eh? What were the terms of his employment?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
46. +1 -- Jurors in Clay Trial have said if they had known Shaw was CIA, would have convicted him-!!
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 08:18 PM by defendandprotect
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Tip. Of. The. Iceberg.
Seriously, if it goes as back as Garrison suggests, why stop with Clay Shaw?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Well, if you were familiar with the research/info, you'd know no one does stop with Shaw ...!!
If you want more help, let us know --

ROFL

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
45. Clay Shaw was CIA, as confirmed after the trial -- he was also responsible for trying to
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 08:32 PM by defendandprotect
organize assassination of De Gaulle -- and others. Perminex, I think was the

name of his international company which raised the $$ for it.

Shaw was thrown out of Italy because of this.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. So - there are much more meaninful leads if Garrison's account is to be believed nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Right -- let's ignore Shaw being involved in international and domestic assassinations --!!
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 08:37 PM by defendandprotect
ROFL

Garrison didn't ignore anything -- he not only developed the assassination

information available to him in his New Orleans investigation and suspects centered

there -- but also re the MIC and the many reasons the establishment wanted JFK dead.

Garrison followed all the leads -- that's why he was such a threat to the conspirators.



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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. I have a tape that a friend's family wanted me to transfer to dvd
They taped the tv during that weekend and you can hear some of them talking about something was fishy about it all. Many many people thought there was a conspiracy well before Garrison.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. I remember when Oswald was shot I heard my dad say to my mom
"Someone doesn't want him talking." And all the adults at Thanksgiving dinner that year (which fell on the Thursday after the assassination) were speculating on who was behind it.

You are correct, Jim Garrison wasn't the only one who thought something was fishy.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
47. Agree -- and killing of Oswald ranks up there with NORAD being AWOL on 9/11 -- !!
None of it is believable --

Keep in mind also that one of the actions they used to turn Oswald into a criminal and

nut was Oswald's alleged shooting into the home of General Edwin Walker!

Walker was FIRED by JFK for trying to spread RW propaganda in military -- and he gets

mentioned, in fact, as a nut case in "7 Days in May" in a commentary by Frederick March

as the president.

General Edwin Walker also led the RACIST RALLY AT OLE MISS!! He Was arrested there and

psychiatric treatment recommended by the Judge.


It was Gen. Walker who was the nut case -- but he came in handy for the plotters!


Of course our journalists and press at the time had this info on Walker -- and it was never

made clear to the TV audience who he was!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
44. That's true .... according to the RW which was exposed by his investigation -- !!
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bush Sr. was involved ........... that is all the facts you need
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. He was there when Ruby died. Then again, he was a rich MFer who went wherever he pleased.
"I think today I will go to Paris for lunch. Georg! Start up the Supersonic Lear Jet!"
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
53. Are you making fun of your own thread now -- or do you have evidence of that?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Correlation does not equal Causation
Remember that!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. No one mistakes nonsense for evidence ... do you have evidence of what you posted?
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
7. Why bother?
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PETRUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. Years ago at a late night diner...
I ended up in conversation with a guy who had a briefcase full of documents and photostats about the assassination. (Got the impression he took it with him everywhere.) It was entertaining, so I let him talk and show me the stuff. Funny thing is, I only remember snippets: Magic bullet. Strange associations. JFK to disband CIA. Grassy knoll.

I guess I'd put myself in the no opinion camp.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. He didn't even want to start a revolution, he just wanted to do something of consequence
there's too much coincidence involved for conspiracy, honestly. Oswald got a job at the School Book Depository when Ruth Paine, who his wife was teaching Russian, suggested it, weeks before the motorcade route was planned and announced; JFK wanted a different route and destination, Connally insisted on going to the Dallas Trade Mart, which took the motorcade past the School Book Depository at a fairly slow speed; Jack Ruby, who shot Oswald, was in a Western Union office wiring twenty-five bucks to a stripper who'd only called him up that morning, and shot Oswald four minutes after he wired the money (from the time stamp on his receipt)...and Oswald's transfer to the county jail had been unexpectedly delayed. And the idea that the shadowy forces of the Military-Industrial Complex had JFK whacked because he was going to pull out of Vietnam is really kind of silly; JFK was an anti-communist Cold Warrior who believed firmly in the domino theory, and considering that LBJ inherited Kennedy's national security team...MacNamara, Bundy, and the rest...it's hard to see where that bit of history would have been markedly different.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Exactly. This makes me think we are barking up the wrong tree...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
55. Oswald was CIA and probably also FBI -- working on high level assignments -- i.e., PATSY -- !!
Ruth Pain and her hubby connect back to the CIA and Bell Helicopter --

high profiteers re Vietnam.

The speed at which the motorcade commended in Dealy Plaza -- and the turn -- would

have not been allowed had security been in honest hands. See the video on honest

security being pushed off the presidential limo's bumpers.

Not familiar with that video? Ask for some help!

JFK had put thru documents to withdraw troops from VN -- LBJ nullified them immediately.

JFK laughed at the Cold War which was as fake as today's "terrorism" -- !!



ROFL

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Oswald was a mentally and emotionally unstable loser with a violent temper.
He's the last person a conspiracy would make use of. Read about his breakdown at the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City when he was denied a visa, for instance. Or his abusive behaviour towards his wife.

And JFK had no intention of pulling out of Vietnam. He was a supporter of Tailgunner Joe McCarthy when he was a Congressman; he was a committed anti-Communist and Cold Warrior who believed in the domino theory and all the rest. Try reading some of the things he actually said instead of the fanciful claims of people who clearly don't want to face reality. See here, for instance: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/viet15.htm
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. Not according to the Tunnheim Panel/JFK Assassination Classified Records Act -- !!
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 09:14 PM by defendandprotect
That panel had access to Oswald's employment records -- IRS filings --

and their unanimous conclusion was --

"OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS AND

PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI" --



What you're picked up is nonsense from the Warren Report -- which in fact

was written by a former Nazi propagandist used by the CIA!


Meanwhile, we have only RW sources for any suggestions that Oswald ever engaged

in domestic violence.

However -- do you have any idea how many males in America are guilty of domestic v

and who have raped and even killed women in their lives? And not ever murdered a

president?


You're arguing nonsense -- and don't know what you're reading -- but I'd refer you to

Fletcher Prouty who did know.

And, yes, the instructions had been delivered to remove troops from Vietnam -- !!

Someone is lying to you.

If you want truth, disconnect from those sources.



Oooh .... see it macadams -- ROFL



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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Here's Noam Chomsky saying the same thing:
http://books.zcommunications.org/chomsky/rc/rc-c01-s20....

The dated draft of the National Security Action Memorandum exists in the archives, it is not faked. The evidence is not on the side of conspiracy.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Your post relates in no way to my post --- for one ....
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 09:32 PM by defendandprotect
for another JFK was withdrawing troops from Vietnam --

but guess you're going to force someone here to drag up the info for you --



JFK was withdrawing troops -- and LBJ immediately reversed those instructions.



Nor would I look to Chomsky for any straight info on JFK or the conspiracy --

in fact, Chomsky has always avoided discussing JFK assassination or any conspiracy --

Nor is Chomsky believable on 9/11.

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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. I thought at the time the whole theory stunk and still think
that. Haven't believed much of what gov't. has said since.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's a report from the government, what more do ya need
;)
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Va Lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. All the History books dealing with JFK's assassination should be moved to the fiction section
I don't know who killed him or why or how many gunmen were involved, but what they have told us (Oswald/lone gunman) is not true. Just my 2 cents

:tinfoilhat:
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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. LHO admired JFK, that is a record of fact
He claimed he was a "patsy" prior to being killed by Jack Ruby. Never read anything about LHO wanting to start a revolution.

Why would someone defect to USSR, then defect from USSR and travel back to USA, then finally decide to emigrate to socialist Cuba? Not logical.

The famous photo of LHO holding a rifle and a SWP Trotskyite communist("The Militant") newspaper in one hand along with a CPUSA pro-Stalinist communist newspaper("Daily Worker") at the same time, this is extremely illogical. The two parties split years ago due to ideological differences. This was probably a doctored photo to incriminate him after the fact.

LHO was left-handed, and the scope of alleged sniper rifle was mounted for a right-handed shooter. Besides that, LHO was a mediocre 'marksman' in USMC. LHO was never sniper-grade material. Not to mention that the MC carbine would not have been a good choice for a precision head shot to a moving target.

There are many, many inconsistencies and illogical facts that discredit LHO as a lone nut and/or left wing assassin.

You have to wade thru the disinformation to get to more logical scenarios of this unsolved murder.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. there's no such thing as a scope mounted for a right-handed shooter.
And the Mannlicher-Carcano being a standard-issue military rifle had a right-hand bolt. Oswald qualified as a sharpshooter twice (48 and 49 out of 50); his last qualification as an active-duty Marine was marksman, but his proficiency was still more than sufficient for what would have been an easy shot for a trained marksman with a scope-mounted rifle.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
56. The rifle's scope had to be REPAIRED before it could be tested .... !!
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 08:54 PM by defendandprotect
And there are only about 4-5 different reports on what the weapon was!

No one has ever been able to recreate the shots allegedly made!

And, you can't shoot someone in the temple from behidn him!!



Additionally -- according to the official autopsy --

The neck wound was a wound of ENTRY -- NO OUTLET --

The wound in JFK's back was in his right rear shoulder blade -- and made at a

45 degree DOWNWARD ANGLE.

Iow's -- no magic bullet!



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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in the upper right posterior thorax. Beneath the skin there is ecchymosis of subcutaneous tissue and musculature. The missile path through the fascia and musculature cannot be easily proved. The wound presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Perry of Dallas in the low anterior cervical region. When observed by Dr. Perry the wound measured "a few millimeters in diameter", however it was extended as a tracheostomy incision and thus its character is distorted at the time of autopsy. However there is considerable eccymosis of the strap muscles of the right side of the neck and of the fascia about the trachea adjacent to the line of the tracheostomy wound. The third point of reference in connecting these two wounds is in the apex (supra-clavicular portion) of the right pleural cavity. In this region there is contusion of the parietal pleura and of the extreme apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. In both instances the diameter of contusion and ecchymosis at the point of maximal involvement measures 5 cm. Both the visceral and parietal pleura are intact overlying these areas of trauma.

Warren Commission Report, Appendix IX


Look up "posterior" and "anterior" and then get back to me (since you obviously don't actually know what they mean).
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. You can't quote the Warren Report as evidence ... go to the official autopsy report ....
And remember Ford's involvement in moving the back would UP -- !!

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. That is the autopsy report.
Included as evidence. Again, you have no idea WTF you're talking about.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. If it's in the Warren Report you can't be sure ...
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 10:53 PM by defendandprotect
When I have time, I'll look it up --

However, if you recall anthing of the autopsy you will recall that

there was NO OUTLET for the neck wound!!

In fact, whatever hit him -- ice bullet, dart, actuall bullet -- may have dropped

down into his chest cavity.

You will also recall that the wound in JFK's rear is near his right shoulder blade --

and it is made at a 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE -- !!

And it also has NO OUTLET. This is all also confirmed in the questioning of Finck

at the Shaw trial.



And, again, recall why Ford was on the Panel --

He was the slime who worked to move the back wound UP in order to confuse the records

and to enable the "magic bullet" --

Trust you didn't miss that story?



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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. ...
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/coroner-jfk-autopsy-r...

no "magic bullet", the trajectory works, Connally was seated inboard of and below Kennedy, not directly in front and on the same level, reconstructions have shown this, and neutron activation analysis of fragments from Connally's wrist match the bullet found on the stretcher, and also link it to Oswald's rifle. Do you actually know anything about the actual evidence, at all? Because it doesn't really sound like it.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Please explain how TWO wounds with NO OULET can connect?
One a wound of entry in the neck --

the other at the position of the presidents right shoulder blade --

a wound made at a 45 degree DOWNWARD ANGLE????


If anyone has told you that this has anything to do with Connally, they are pulling

your leg!

The bullet/s that hit Connally are the most often lied about -- a nearly pristine bullet

was presented as a bullet which did all the damage to his body! YET, HE STILL HAD BULLET

FRAGMENTS IN HIS BODY WHICH WOULD HAVE WEIGHED MUCH MORE THAN WHAT WAS MISSING FROM THAT

PRISTINE BULLET!


Oswald's rifle? There were at any number of rifles presented as the assassination weapon --

and an obvious switch was made according to witnesses who were there when the rifles was

found. In fact, one was a gun dealer quite familiar with rifles.


Again, don't know where you're getting your info -- but they're pulling your leg!



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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. There was no "wound of entry in the neck"
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Official autopsy report - testimony of Finck -- and the records ....
Neck wound was a wound of ENTRY with NO OUTLET


However, even if you didn't believe that -- explain to me how a wound in JFK's back

-- near his right shoulder blade -- made at a 45 degree DOWNWARD angle -- could

possibly connect with anything ABOVE it?


Again -- someone is pulling your leg.

You need other sources --


And you need to see the official autopsy report --



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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. I linked you to the autopsy report.
The neck wound is described there as an exit wound. Same thing in the HSCA report. Same thing in Finck's testimony which refers to "two entry wounds, in the back of the head, and in the upper back". The records don't say what you claim they do. You don't know what you are talking about. See here: http://www.archive.org/stream/KennedyAutopsyReportWarre...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. The neck would was a wound of ENTRY with NO OUTLET according to Finck -- !!
Edited on Mon Nov-21-11 12:45 AM by defendandprotect
And he just happened to have done the autopsy!!


And I can tell you there was NO wound in the "upper back" except what might have

been put there by Ford. You do realize that Ford worked to MOVE THE BACK WOUND UP?

Please confirm to me that you're aware of that fact.


Again, if that's from the Warren Report, you have a problem.


Find the reports of the Parkland doctors -- neck wound is a wound of ENTRY and Finck

confirms that at autopsy also saying it has NO OUTLET!

Neither does the back wound have an OUTLET!

It's the subject of conversation at the autopsy as Finck probes this wound with his

finger and with instruments -- reporting each time -- NO OUTLET.


And again, please explain to me how a back wound near JFK's right shoulder blade --

made at a 45 degree DOWNWARD ANGLE -- could connect with anything -- except something

BELOW it?







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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. You're incredibly obtuse.
There is a link to Finck's testimony above; he refers to an entry wound in the upper back, and an exit wound in the neck. You are apparently ignorant, stupid, or trolling; there is no fourth possibility.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. There is an ENTRY wound in the back -- with NO OUTLET ---
and it is made at a 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE --

Now -- tell me how such a wound can connect with anything except

something BELOW it?


Confirm to me, please, that you know that Ford moved the wound near JFK's right

shoulder blade UP -- !! Let's at least get that straightened out!

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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. All the evidence and testimony says "exit wound at in the anterior cervical region"...
which means..."the front of the neck", in plain English. "Partially obscured by tracheotomy" per Drs Finck and Humes but an EXIT wound. Very clearly corresponding to the ENTRY wound on the upper back. The evidence of the autopsists to the Warren Commission, the examination of the autopsy photos and X-rays by a panel of experts convened by Ramsay Clark, and the findings of the House Select Committee on Assassinations all agree on this. Kennedy was struck by two bullets, from behind.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. You are avoiding confirming that you know that Ford moved the back wound UP ... start there ...
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Ford didn't do anything
There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm. below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the horizontal plane of the body. A well defined zone of discoloration of the edge of the back wound, most pronounced on its upper and outer margins, identifies it as having the characteristics of the entrance wound of a bullet. The wound with its marginal abrasion measures approximately 7 mm. in width by 10 mm. in length. The dimensions of this cutaneous wound are consistent with those of a wound produced by a bullet similar to that which constitutes exhibit CE 399. At the site of and above the tracheotomy incision in the front of the neck, there can be identified the upper half of the circumference of a circular cutaneous wound the appearance of which is characteristic of that of the exit wound of a bullet. The lower half of this circular wound is obscured by the surgically produced tracheotomy incision which transects it. The center of the circular wound is situated approximately 9 cm. below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the left in Its passage through the body.
http://www.jfklancer.com/ClarkPanel.html
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. Ok -- Finally --
Thank you for making clear what your posts are about --

I have one rule -- if you're disingenuous you get put on ignroe --


Bye --
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. My posts are about the evidence.
Not some absurd made-up imaginary theory. I would suggest you look up "disingenuous", since you don't know what that means either.
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Maccagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. If Oswald did do it because (pick a reason) he failed miserably
Call it "The Law of Unintended Consequences." I don't know who did it, but I know who benefited.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. I, myself and me believe
everything the government tells me, especially when it concerns JFK, RFK or MLK. :argh:
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. RFK and MLK I wonder about...
I don't think the official stories are the truth on those...

MLK's family doesn't believe James Earl Ray did it.

RFK's family doesn't believe Sirhan Sirhan did it.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
58. A jury found for CONSPIRACY in MLK death -- government conspiracy!!
We've had more than 50 years of out in the open overt RW political violence

hitting our liberal/progressive leaders -- and taking our people's government.

Still going on -- !!

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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
23. Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy
20 years of research, more than one million words, hundreds of interviews, thousands of documents and more than 10,000 citations. The result, Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy (W. W. Norton), is due out tomorrow. His conclusion: Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy, and acted alone.

Why would such a simple conclusion require so much argument?

Because of the unceasing and fanatical obsession of thousands of researchers over the last 43 years, from around the world but mostly in the United States, Mr. Bugliosi said in an interview at the cafe of the Sportsmens Lodge Hotel in Studio City, Calif. Examining under a high-powered microscope every comma, every period, every detail on every conceivable issue, and making hundreds and hundreds of allegations, they have transformed this simple case into its present form.

Mr. Bugliosi likes to tell a story illustrating why he believes this book is necessary. In 1992, less than a year after the debut of Oliver Stones conspiracy-minded film J.F.K., Mr. Bugliosi was addressing a group of trial lawyers when a member of the audience asked him about the assassination.

Mr. Bugliosi asked for a show of hands of how many people did not accept the findings of the Warren Commission, which had investigated the assassination and concluded that Oswald was the killer. Close to 90 percent of the 600 lawyers raised their hands, he recalled. Then he asked how many had seen J.F.K. or read an account that argued in favor of a conspiracy; a similar number raised their hands. Finally, he asked how many had read the Warren Commission report. Only a smattering of hands went up.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/14/books/14jfk.html?page...
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. That is one of the reasons I buy the Warren Report
I have read it.

It makes sense.

Height of cold war, he comes back the US - I could totally see that - especially if they think he might be of any value. If he's a spy, and they watch him, they have info. If he's not, they still have info.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
60. ROFL
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Crazy B.S.
We who've read the Warren Report never bought it. neither did hundreds of trained attorneys and law enforcement people.

Schema are you familiar with the reports and documents from the House Select Committee on Assassinations?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Select...

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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. What part of Bugliosi's book do you consider "crazy b.s.", specifically?
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I've studied the assassination(s) for 30 years.
can't argue it here.

Let me refer you to the definitive scholar's site on history and the assassinations. It's called Spartacus.edu.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKindex.htm


It's not an open board. it's open to serious scholars. I'm not a member but I have studied and learned.
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. That is not a scholarly page my friend.

It has a list, among several other very long list, of over 100 "possible conspirators". lol.



Bugliosi's book is scholarly.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Spartacus is not a 'list'. It's a huge HISTORY forum with links and discussion boards.
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 12:01 AM by Mimosa
Bugliosi is a TOOL. But you knew that already. As do all Bugliosi 'Lone Nut' propagandists.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
64. Agree -- "Bugliosi is a tool" --
and he was also a tool in painting Manson as "hippie" !!

A rather unlikely well-financed ex-con posing as a hippie --

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court jester Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. + 1 that is a super page
seems like it would take 30 years to read it all.

"Bugliosi is a TOOL"
+2

Oh and by the way, if you haven't already seen it, Google Earth Street View has Dealey Plaza in high definition (or whatever they call it- it is like looking out a window-literally), you can mouse click your way down the very street that JFK was riding on when he was shot, see the grassy knoll and the entire surroundings. If you haven't looked, it's worth the time. It's almost (with a big monitor) like being there. Astounding.




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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
59. Bugsy has written a book based on personal attacks and little info ... it's a mess!
Further, Bugs is also involved in stemming questions re the Sharon Tate murders --

which look more like a military execution --

So -- he's help out the conspirators more than once!!


The Youth Revolution of the 1960's was about a great deal more than sex -- though

that's what the RW likes to try to limit it to --

Bugs helped to try to paint Manson as a "hippie" -- and he was everything but!!


Here's another way to think about it --

Indeed, in 1972, when the details began to come out about a break-in at Democratic Party headquarters in the Watergate Hotel, Mae immediately recognized personnel and modus operandi from nine years of assassination research, while the mainstream press continued to refer to Watergate as a "caper" and "a third-rate burglary." And so it came to pass that while Rabbi Magnin was entertaining Richard Nixon at his home in Los Angeles, his daughter Mae was revealing the President's role in an incredible conspiracy. Meanwhile, she also perceived an assassination plot, not merely against specific individuals, but against the entire counterculture that was burgeoning at the time.

"I realized that in this country we had a revolution--of housing, food, hair style, clothing, cosmetics, transportation, value systems, religion--it was an economic revolution, affecting the cosmetics industry, canned foods, the use of land; people were delivering their own babies, recycling old clothes, withdrawing from spectator sports. They were breaking the barriers where white and black could rap in 1967. This was the year of the Beatles, the summer of Sergeant Pepper, the Monterey Pop Festival, Haight-Ashbury, make your own candle and turn off the electricity, turn on with your friends and laugh--that's what life was all about."


http://maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Ballad...

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. seriously, wtf does this have to do with 9/11?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. This is the catch all conspiracy forum nt
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cpwm17 Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
36. Nuts generally are not part of conspiracies.
Nuts act alone.

There are many different conspiracies concerning the Kennedy assassination, and none are ever proven correct. And none will likely ever be proven correct, since all are likely bogus.

Of course there isn't as much money to be made writing books that agree with the Warren report, so the conspiracies will persist.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
65. Not true -- many were discussing those involved the very night of the assassination -- !!
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 09:21 PM by defendandprotect
From Landsdale to LBJ -- they knew -- !!



Oswald was far from a nut - he was obviously in military intelligence --

and Tunnheim Panel -- JFK Assassination Classified Records Act 1992 found that

"OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS AND

PROBABLY ALSO BY FBI" --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
37. First -- go to your library -- they'll have the report -- don't waste your money on buying it --
Second -- according to the official autopsy report --

JFK's throat wound was a wound of ENTRY with NO OUTLET --

JFK's wound in his back was at the level of his right shoulder blad --

and that wound was also a wound of ENTRY with NO OUTLET --

and it was made at a 45 degree DOWNWARD ANGLE.

Poof! No magic bullet -- and our journalists and officials obviously knewe that.


This was a very power coup with the protection of many in government --

It could not have been pulled off without having LBJ in the White House --

Clearly -- LBJ was one of the many co-conspirators.



First -- go to your library -- they'll have the report -- don't waste your money on buying it --
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Great post...but a few...um...mistakes.
JFK's throat wound was a wound of ENTRY with NO OUTLET --
WRONG

JFK's wound in his back was at the level of his right shoulder blad --
WRONG

and that wound was also a wound of ENTRY with NO OUTLET --
WRONG

and it was made at a 45 degree DOWNWARD ANGLE.
WRONG

Poof! No magic bullet -- and our journalists and officials obviously knewe that.
WRONG

This was a very power coup with the protection of many in government --
WRONG

It could not have been pulled off without having LBJ in the White House --
WRONG

Clearly -- LBJ was one of the many co-conspirators.
HILARIOUS but also WRONG.

Otherwise, great post!
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