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anyone seen this pentagon 911 stuff?

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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:41 PM
Original message
anyone seen this pentagon 911 stuff?
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. The truth shall set you free...
The Big Lie enslaves...
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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
90. Here's Rummy admitting the truth on film.
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no_to_war_economy Donating Member (962 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. snopes.com tries to debunk it but
there is definitley more to it

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm


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Archae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Total crapola.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. If you totally ignore the film from the helo pad
that shows the plane crashing into the building, I suppose this cockeyed theory might have half a leg. This is absolute nonsense. What did they do, hide the plane on an island in the Bermuda Triangle, and force Ted Olson's wife to serve mixed drinks to the highjackers? Please...!
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exploited Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
55. The plane, the plane! It's on the island.
Actually, I'm tring very hard NOT to totally ignore the plane shown crashing into the building. Proves everything. QED.

The plane
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
91. So because you can't explain what happened to the plane, you cannot
question anything? Hey, I've got some WMD in Iraq you might want to buy.
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Isn't it interesting...
that that section of the Pentagon was under restoration. Maybe someone was just testing it to see if it could actually withstand a missile. With everything else going on that day they probably figured it would be easy to cover up and they were right, whoever they are.
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MasterJonah Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
80. we all know it was a missle that took out the Pentagon
But does everyone know that charges were set in the twin towers to bring it down and does anybody know about holograms being used on the second aircraft.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #80
93. Wow! Great question. Almost makes the Pentagon question sound absurd.
Good job!
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #80
99. The "holograms"?...
...Jeesuz...just when I think it can't get more nutty, I blink my eyes and it does... :tinfoilhat: :eyes:
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
83. There is a lot
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 01:24 AM by FreedomAngel82
of strange things with that I think. It's funny how we see stuff with the WTC all the time but we never see anything with the Pentagon. I remember reading how a local gas station had their security camera to where they could see that area and after it happened the FBI took that video tape and we've never seen it or anything with the Pentagon attack.
Nobody ever talks about it either. Just the WTC towers and/or 9/11 in itself. Has anybody ever seen the movie "The Carlyle group"? It's at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info on their main page on the left side. It makes a lot of sense to stuff going on now days. When I first saw it I was like "omg." I know Kerry closed down BCCI. I wish there was some way to close down this group. I'm surprised he's never tried.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Nothing new here......
....but....a great presentation of the theory!

Really,....the wings would have sheared off and been laying there (a bit blackened perhaps, but,....

Knowing all we know about BushCo Inc.,.....is this really :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. Aluminum tube punch holes through
Bomb proof concrete wall and disintegrate into tiny pieces.
Oh yeah. Right.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
76. Actually, that's the way it works.
Whether it's paper or aluminum or steel, a lot of mass at high velocity causes damage.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #76
94. Yes! and all the wing debris is sucked into the hole leaving no damage
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 01:58 AM by buddysmellgood
to the building. That's just how it works! Amazing anomaly of physics but gee whiz, what are you going to do?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #94
105. Do you want to discuss debris or whether aluminum could make a hole?
I was addressing the latter issue.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #94
111. no damange to the building??
try reading the other threads on this, the MANY other threads, that show the damage to the building, THEN you can make such absurd statements.

in the mean time,

bye bye
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #76
109. Sure
but get real here . How many layers of concrete wall. I am talking about punch through. Not collapse. I expect big mass and size on impact to collapse wall. I dont expect them to behave like concrete wall penetrator.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. You Know, Mr. Visitor
Weapons of the "penetrator" class weigh are very small and light by compare to a jetliner. Their design is contrived to achieve the greatest impact possible, either by high speeds and hardness, or by chemical energy focused of a point. Something with several dozen times their mass, moving at moderate speed, certainly achieves similar energies, and transmits them on impact.
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. I have to admit I know little about the 9-11 stuff.
What would BushCo have gained by hitting the pentagon with a missle or lying about what actually happened at the pentagon?
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Well, look how Bush's popularity jumped after 9/11
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 11:15 PM by Dancing_Dave
And then the neo-cons were able to put through their whole war agenda worked out before 9/11. In 2000, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz had already admitted that they could only get support for their "Project for a New American Century" war agenda if "A New Pearl Harbor" occured...so as soon as Bush was elected something along these lines was in the works.

In fact, before 9/11 negotiations between Cheney/Enron and the Taliban for an Afghan pipeline broke down over money, and Cheney said they would be bombed as a result. A Pakistani diplomat wrote this down. Then the 9/11 New Pearl Harbor happened right at the convenient moment...so Cheney would have a pretext to seize Afghanistan.

And Iraq, etc.
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I understand the benefits
of 9-11 for BushCo, but I don't understand why they needed to hit the pentagon as well. The twin towers and the plane in Pennsylvania were more than enough to scare everyone so that they could pass the patriot act and start a few wars.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
70. If nothing else, it may (or may not) another airliner...
...with people they need to get rid of.

Around the web you'll find bio's on the passengers. Flt 77 had quite a few people who were involved specialized work. Avionics (including perhaps, remote flight) and bio or bio-terror.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #70
87. Isn't that like with
JFK jr and his "plane crash" in the 90's?
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #87
104. Wellstone, perhaps? n/t
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #104
119. Wellstone was very likely assassinated.
There's a book out on this that I've read "American Assassination: the strange Death of Paul Wellstone". They make a pretty good case.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #87
113. let me guess
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 08:19 AM by WoodrowFan
that was a plot to?? :eyes:

what, did they put an ad for the DU on Rense???
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
86. Also remember that
right after the Iraq stuff happened someone asked Bush how would we pay for it. You know his answer? The oil.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. the pentagon was vital.....
if only the wtc had been destroyed, the bs that america was 'under attack' wouldn't have been effective...after all the wtc is non military...by including the pentagon, the planners included the US military/police state in the sympathy the suffering of those at the wtc garnered.....
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
85. I don't know
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 01:31 AM by FreedomAngel82
but if you haven't seen the movie "The Carlyle group" maybe it'll make some sense to it. They talk about 9/11 some and past wars as well and other things with the Bush and BinLaden families. I also remember reading how they were having security runthroughs like they were planning for something. I don't know if that's true or not though. If you can visit http://www.911review.org / They also have a lot of good stuff up there and it's not just conspericy theorist's. Just facts and question's of things that don't add up etc. I think it's a pretty good site.
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. Whats with the picture
that has firefighters standing around the C ring of the pentagon where there is a whole in the wall? There is a statement with the picture that says something like "would a boeing 757 really make perfect circles as it went through stainless steel...walls?"

Its impossible that there would be no plane parts ....or at least more debris there. Was that picture supposed to be immeadiately following the impact? crazy...
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Think Reichstag Fire...
It'll all start to click into place...
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Wouldn't the twin towers have been enough?
I don't see the need to hit the pentagon. Its all highly questionable to me....I don't trust Bush at all, but I don't see why they would attack the pentagon or lie about.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
95. If you attack the military, it puts it in a differnent ball park.
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. gawd almighty
how many times do people who were in the area that day have to come on a thread and give an eyewitness account of seeing the plane hit before the message sinks in.
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I've never seen one of those posts.
Is there a thread you could point me to?
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. there was one the other day
Edited on Fri Jan-28-05 11:17 PM by henrik larssonisking
ive no idea were it went, but think about it this way, DC is the most conspiratorial city in the world, when chandra levy went missing we had 6 months of the city going nuts over all the different theories, the press was coming up with all sorts of stuff, the buzz was all around the water coolers. After 911, how many people were coming up with theories, none, there were just to many people who witnessed it, its not like the pentagon is hidden away, its got major highways running by it, office building overlooking it etc, and remember this happened during rush hour.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. and david copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear
that was truly amazing....millions were watching, it was even on tv....poof-gone! poof- back, just like new (no scratches even)!
face it, there are tapes of firemen saying 'damn, there's explosions!' moments before the towers fell...there's tapes of high public officials saying (it was even on the news) they saw something explode on flight 587 before it broke up and crashed on nov 10/01 the day the NORC results were published (consequently on back pages, nats!) there have been posts of people who 'saw' the plane before it hit the pentagon, but like you say there must have been thousands...yet very little has been investgated in depth by the mediawhores...face it, the USA is fucked; america hasn't got the men to protect the country from organized criminals, not of the bfee sort anyway....and those same criminals bring us the 'news'
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RockStar Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
75. the non believers need to drink more koolaid and watch more fox news
Any Adult with half a brain, hell even my kids ask where is the plane crash and they are 8 and 10. Look at Plane Crashes from History Then look at the news clips from the pentegon
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exploited Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. 'gawd almighty' indeed
To help end speculation, the Pentagon just needs to release the videos from:
* the Pentagon security cameras (& don't tell me they have only one camera that caught 5 frames)
* the security cameras in surrounding businesses that have never seen the light of day.

Show us, then we can all be 'eyewitnesses'.
BUT then... truthful disclosure is NOT on the agenda is it.
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no_arbusto Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
82. C'mon Hank
Give us your eyewitness account. I'm "in the area" too.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well, done!
Of course, the Pentagon is one of the most secretive places on the planet...it seems to take decades for historians to figure out what really happened there.

This is really a good consciousness raising video, it brings in a number of key issues in a way people can absorb.

Here's one that focuses more on the WTC...perhaps we can break down the 9/11 cover-up sooner in New York City than Washington DC:

http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/Secr...

Then there's this whole website by a DU'er:
http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/html/view.cg...
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Not this again.........
:eyes:

(waiting for the DUer whose friend was killed in that crash to come blast this thread to oblivion)
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Where is the forensic evidence?
Ever wonder about that?
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. not really
when you live in the area and have people you know and trust still traumatised from seeing the plane hit the building, but i guess they must all be government plants or under mind control.
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Who are these people?
Funny how "eyewitness testimony" is only reliable in this case and the Washington sniper case...

Wheras "eyewitness testimony" is completely discredited when discussing any of the Right Wing targeted assassinations...

Strange, really...
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. ok take tin foil apply liberally to head
the best one for me is my father in law, he was driving by and watched the plane slam in, i doubt hes a government plant. SO thats good enough for me. ALso i dont have the links but it was all over the news immediately afterwards, tonnes of witnesses.
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. He watched the plane slam in?
Did he testify?

Did CNN's Paula Zahn interview him along with the Navy private who she had to prod into saying he saw the "tail of the plane" on the lawn...

Is his observation entered into the official record?

Please...

Inquiring minds want to know...





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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. no idea
but as hes a member of the bar in Maryland, and also a doctor, and as hes my father in law, i got no doubt in what he saw. But then again i guess you living miles away from the incident had a better viewpoint and have your finger on the pulse and conversations of washingtonians and northern virginians.
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Boosterman Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
44. wow what a varied life you lead
Dad works near the pentagon and you worked for the UN. This ole southern boy is jealous.
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. actually
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:06 AM by henrik larssonisking
my father in law is a lawyer and owns companies in the DC area, so he gets around, personally i would never work for the UN, but i have worn the blue beret on a few occasions.

PS if you want ill send you my life story if you want.
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Boosterman Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Fair enough
I actually have lost a bit of faith in the UN myself. Still have hopes though :)
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. no probs mate
wait till you ever get a chance to work with them, worse than the mob mate.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. That's nothing RB.
We had one guy last month who saw the plane go in....vertically!

They really need to huddle up and get their stories straight.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
68. Navy PRIVATE? No such thing... n/t
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #68
79. The equivalent of...
Seaman First Class?
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. What a naive view of witness psychology!
Countless psychology experiments show that people will sincerely "remember seeing" things that never happened, because the human mind tends to interpolate details to arive at a story that makes sense. This is especially true of traumatic and new experiences.

Often the subconscious process goes on a while after the event, as people learn the official story that their experiences will be expected to agree with and so on. But not everyone will play along, if the official story is to much in conflict with the physical evidence that people can interpret through comparisons and so on.

It's a pity that all the witnesses weren't cross-examined in a court room, so that we could sort out the truth, and bring the people REALLY responsible for 9/11 to Justice. But of course, the Patriot Act was carefully designed to make all that unnecesary. The Government just says who done it and they don't have to prove anything to lock up people forever. We aren't ever supposed to know the truth about who was really responsible. :nopity:
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. yeah they were brainwashed
i remember listening to the radio in alexandria, when the towers were hit and elliot in the morning was talking about what was happening, when suddenly they started saying they were getting calls from people who had just witnessed a jumbo hitting the pentagon, i guess all these callers were just delusional.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #30
61. Yes and secrecy reigns because it is a national security dictum.
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:25 AM by higher class
How many cups of coffee were drunk in those all night meetings at the think tanks or in Cheney's bunker to come up with the tight little arrangement. Citizens and Senators be damned.

I'd like to know what Mary Matilin might know about all this if she was at Dick's side.

I'd also like to know how those of the 19 accused are making out in their home countries...do they have to live in secret or are there any investigative journalists from any country trying to interview them - you know, the ones we said died in the crashes, but who are said to be alive and kicking.

Some day, a flight controller or airline official or explosive setter or instigator might come forward. Justice is usually sure, if not swift.

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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. this is the one major problem i have with a conspiracy
i find it hard to believe that with the number of people needed to plan something like this, that it could be kept secret. in black ops you are taught to accept that as soon as two people know a secret that it will be blown and to plan accordingly.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
67. I lost two friends in that crash, though they were not on the plane n/t
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. Sure looks like the debunkers are fast on the scene here.
Any reading about the Pentagon fire should be combined with reading about the theory of flight resonders, flight paths, remote controlled aircraft, and Harrisburg, PA.

It's like the Skull & Bones. Since it is a secret society, you can't honestly say it is a inert fraternity.

Since the Pentagon 'event' is cloaked in secrecy, you can't say it was a missile, explosives combined with smoke and mirrors, a 757, or a small aircraft. But, knowing what we know about the people behind this administration and their agenda and all the lies about everything else they have their hand in, it's not enough to say 'debunkied'; it's not enough to say Barbara Olsen died in the Pentagon. She may have died in Pennsylvania.
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. the debunkers have to be quick
otherwise to the outside world everyone here looks like a total nutjob.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. It only takes a couple to do that
And don't bother with facts. These are true believers.

What I don't understand is why some people believe that we haven't pissed off enough muslims to the point where they committed these attacks. I find that astonishing, and, well rather RW.
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. We are the same nutjobs...
that think privatizing social security is just another corporate give away and might actually be bad. :-)
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. you know the scarey thing is
one post the nutjob is giving us a theory on why no plane hit the pentagon, and on the next is giving a reason why we shouldnt privatise social security, but both posts just kinda blend together and all that comes out is the feeling the poster is radio rental and lives in their underwear in their parents attic.

no offence is meant to you dude. :)
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. forget it then....
the main point is bush was never elected, he's a crook, the bfee? they're a buncha petty thieves who've stolen control of the gov using the nation's peculiar habit of falling off every curb and landing right side up (except when Abe Lincoln won the civil war on his terms and when the allies crushed nazi fascism; both failures being corrected as we speak)
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. now i can agree with you
:)
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Do you "debunkers" make as much
As the "conservative pundits" the Bush Administration put on Federal Payrolls?

There are many masks, and I hope you aren't wearing one of the cheaper ones, eh.
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. lol too funny
now i get it, if someone dosent step with your theory then of course they must automatically be on the payroll. Tell you what talk to people in DC etc, they will tell you, the radio on that morning was full of people phoning from their cars to report they had just seen an aircraft hit the pentagon.
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exploited Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #37
65. Ah, people phoning from cars to the radio
I've heard some of these people before.

To tell you the truth, sometimes it's hard to work out which of them are the nutjobs, which are the debunkers and which of them is on the payroll.

Maybe, before you "spoke to your father" you thought the people on radio that morning were nutjobs too?
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. to be honest i might have but
when they put calls through, it was very moving if thats a good word, we had the gamit of emotions. if it was one or two people i might accept the payroll part, but every station here was jammed with people, lots of them repeat callers from other shows. I guess if you were here that day and saw and heard what was happening, and then the conversations of the people around you, you wouldnt doubt the palne had hit the pentagon. I guess its a matter of believing people you know personally and the gut feeling you get when hearing tell.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. CIA Director Buzzy Krongard managed firm that handled PUT options
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:45 AM by seemslikeadream
A. B. Buzzy Krongard


But Krongard exhibited the requisite secretiveness when asked
to explain his interest in intelligence and how he came to land
a job in Tenet's inner circle. If you go back to the CIA's origins
during World War II in the Office of Strategic Services, he
explained, "the whole OSS was really nothing but Wall Street
bankers and lawyers."
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16570-2001Ma ...

Supressed Details of Criminal Insider Trading Lead Directly into the CIAs Highest Ranks
CIA Executive Director Buzzy Krongard managed firm that handled PUT options on United Airline Stock
by Michael C. Ruppert

FTW - October 9, 2001 Although uniformly ignored by the mainstream U.S. media, there is abundant and clear evidence that a number of transactions in financial
markets indicated specific (criminal) foreknowledge of the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In the case of at least one of these
trades -- which has left a $2.5 million prize unclaimed -- the firm used to place the put options on United Airlines stock was, until 1998, managed by the man who is
now in the number three Executive Director position at the Central Intelligence Agency.

Until 1997 A.B. Buzzy Krongard had been Chairman of the investment bank A.B. Brown. A.B. Brown was acquired by Bankers Trust in 1997. Krongard then
became, as part of the merger, Vice Chairman of Bankers Trust-AB Brown, one of 20 major U.S. banks named by Senator Carl Levin this year as being connected
to money laundering. Krongards last position at Bankers Trust (BT) was to oversee private client relations. In this capacity he had direct hands-on relations with
some of the wealthiest people in the world in a kind of specialized banking operation that has been identified by the U.S. Senate and other investigators as being
closely connected to the laundering of drug money.

Krongard joined the CIA in 1998 as counsel to CIA Director George Tenet. He was promoted to CIA Executive Director by President
Bush in March of this year. BT was acquired by Deutsche Bank in 1999. The combined firm is the single largest bank in Europe. And,
as we shall see, Deutsche Bank played several key roles in events connected to the September 11 attacks.
more
http://www.hereinreality.com/insidertrading.html

Follow the Money: Bush, 9/11, and Deep Threat

by Fran Shor
Published on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 by CommonDreams.org

The CIA and Other Deep Pockets

In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 a number of news stories appeared concerning investments in put options in United and American Airlines. Put options are shares that are bets on falling market prices for specific stocks. In the week before September 11 put options in United and American Airlines went through a furious and unprecedented spasm of investment. In addition put options for Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch, two of the biggest occupants of the World Trade Center, also saw abnormal activity. Most of the investments in these put options originated in Germany through the Deutsche Bank. Deutshce Bank had earlier acquired Bankers Trust, a investment banking firm whose Vice Chairman in charge of private client relations in the late 1990s was A. B. Buzzy Krongard. In March of 2001, Krongard was appointed Executive Director of the CIA.

Certainly, the CIA has a history of laundering money and dealings with shady investment characters. What becomes particularly relevant in the lead-up to 9/11 is the August CIA briefing of Bush concerning the potential threat of attacks by bin Laden using hijacked planes on certain sites, such as the Pentagon and World Trade Center, and the fact that the CIA had bugging equipment on bin Laden messages and international banking operations. Although no one has apparently claimed the money from the put options, questions remain about Krongard and the CIAs involvement.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0522-07.htm

THE CIA CONFIRMS FTW's MAP --
We Were Right!

NEW CIA UNIVERSITY
REVEALS AGENCY PRIORITIES
July 3, 2002,-- 17:00 PDT (FTW) -- The CIA is now operating a university somewhere in northern Virginia. According to an entry in a June 24 newsletter published by an association of former intelligence officers, some of the courses taught at the university are "economic trends, international banking, the world oil market, and how the International Monetary Fund, World Bank, World Trade Organization, etc. and other non-governmental organizations work."

For four years FTW has been teaching that the CIA's primary role, it's raison d'etre, was to serve the interests of Wall Street and the major banks. In our recent three-country lecture tour, our documentation of the close links between CIA and Wall Street has taken many by surprise. Thirty years ago Professor Peter Dale Scott of Berkeley disclosed that six out of the first seven deputy directors of intelligence (CIA's number two position) had gone directly from Wall Street into service at the Agency. Since Sept. 11, FTW's disclosure that the CIA's current executive director, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard, is a former investment banker has caused deeper rumbles. The firm he once headed, AlexBrown/Deutschebank, has been connected to insider trading on United Air Lines stock just before the Sept. 11 attacks. The NYSE's current executive vice president for enforcement, David Doherty, is a retired CIA general counsel.
more
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/070302_CIA_U....

procedure used at Deutschebank/AB Brown assured anonymity

"European reporters found that most of the suspicious pre-attack trades passed through Deutschebank and especially via CIA Executive Director A.B. Krongards former Alex Brown investment division by means of a procedure called portage, which assures the anonymity of individuals making the transactions. But Congress has not publicly revealed whether they will call Krongard and other Alex Brown traders to testify in open hearings, or whether they will subpoena the pre-attack documents in question."
more
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0207/S00119.htm

A Deutsche Bank executive was convicted of money laundering shortly before 9/11, and the bank laundered heroin money linked to the CIA.

And Shattuck actually resigned on September 12(!) from his three-year $30 million contract as head of AB Brown.


SMOKING GUN BURIED DURING CALIFORNIA RECALL VOTE!

On October 7 while the eyes of America were fixed on the California Recall vote the Securities and Exchange Commission quietly announced it was closing its investigation of suspicious stock trades connected to 911. The SEC's reason for closing the investigation can best be summed up as "What insider trading?".

...

* Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., which occupied 22 floors of the World Trade Center, saw 2,157 of its October $45.00 put options bought in the three trading days before Black Tuesday; this compares to an average of 27 contracts per day before September 6.

* Merrill Lynch & Co., with headquarters near the Twin Towers, saw 12,215 October $45.00 put options bought in the four trading days before the attacks; the previous average volume in these options had been 252 contracts per day.

The CIA routinely monitors stock trades looking for exactly these kinds of suspicious transactions. The fact that these trades failed to sound any alarms is in itself suspicious as the bank which was the trading hub has a man inside the Agency. That man is CIA Executive Director Buzzy Krongard and the bank is Deutsche bank.

http://ez-websites.com/grudge /


September 6-10, 2001: Suspicious trading occurs on American and United, the two airlines used in the 9/11 attacks. "Between 6 and 7 September, The Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 put option contracts (a speculation that the stock will go down) in UAL versus 396 call options where a speculator bets on a price rising. Holders of the put options would have netted a profit of $5 million once the carrier's share price dived after September 11. On 10 September, more trading in Chicago saw the purchase of 4,516 put options in American Airlines, the other airline involved in the hijackings. This compares with a mere 748 call options in American purchased that day. Investigators cannot help but notice that no other airlines saw such trading in their put options." One analyst says: "I saw put-call numbers higher than I've ever seen in 10 years of following the markets, particularly the options markets." (Associated Press, 9/18/01, San Francisco Chronicle, 9/19/01) "To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also emerged that the firm used to buy many of the "put" options ... on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by "Buzzy" Krongard, now executive director of the CIA." Krongard was chairman of Alex Brown Inc., which was bought by Deutsche Bank. "His last post before resigning to take his senior role in the CIA was to head Bankers Trust Alex Brown's private client business, dealing with the accounts and investments of wealthy customers around the world." (Independent, 10/14/01)
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/index.html


Let Bin Laden stay free, says CIA man AB Buzzy Krongard

January 09, 2005
Tony Allen-Mills

...

If the worlds most wanted terrorist is captured or killed, a power struggle among his Al-Qaeda subordinates may trigger a wave of terror attacks, said AB Buzzy Krongard, who stepped down six weeks ago as the CIAs third most senior executive.

You can make the argument that were better off with him (at large), Krongard said. Because if something happens to Bin Laden, you might find a lot of people vying for his position and demonstrating how macho they are by unleashing a stream of terror.

Krongard, a former investment banker who joined the CIA in 1998, said Bin Ladens role among Islamic militants was changing. Hes turning into more of a charismatic leader than a terrorist mastermind, he said. Some of his lieutenants are the ones to worry about. Krongard, 68, said he viewed Bin Laden not as a chief executive but more like a venture capitalist.

...

Several US officials have privately admitted that it may be better to keep Bin Laden pinned down on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan rather than make him a martyr or put him on trial. But Krongard is the most senior figure to acknowledge publicly that his capture might prove counter-productive.

Krongard also acknowledged that the CIA was still having trouble planting spies in Islamic militant ranks. There are hundreds and hundreds of (Al-Qaeda) cells its like a living, moving bit of protoplasm, he said.

more
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1431539,00 ...


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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #37
88. Why don't they release
any video's of the Pentagon getting hit to the public so we can see it getting hit to prove people wrong? I've never seen anything except those few photos.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #34
77. Nope, only about 60% of what Armstrong made.
That's what they pay air traffic controllers with 14 years of experience.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Really?
The entire outside world? Most people I talk to don't beieve the entire story of 9/11 is known. Why the insults?

Interesting to me that there seems to be a concerted effort to attack the people still asking questions about 9/11. That the heats been turned on to shut down any discussion of the event. Like we should all just shut up and believe the 9/11 whitewash. Why is that?

If this administration wants to stop the questions, it's easy. Release irrefutable photographic evidence that proves the governments case. Like the tapes that were confiscated from the security cameras at the gas station across the street. Or the security cams at the hotel...or the security cams at the Pentagon. From what I've read lately, seems like everyone's uncle and brother-in-law were driving by the Pentagon and saw a plane go in. Hmmmmm.
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. pray tell what people are you talking to
if you live in florida then yeah mayby the people around you might buy the theories, but if your in DC you will remember the calls to the radio stations from commuters, remember these are major highways going by the pentagon, at rush hour. you will know people even if its by one step removed who saw the attack.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. 3,000 people died on 9/11 and there's been no justice served.
I'll keep asking questions. You keep trying to shut down the discussion, 'kay?
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. yup no problem, you keep asking
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. We shouldn't forget about...
all the short selling that occured with American Airlines stock. :freak: I bet Silverstein was in on that.

Yes your honor it was two seperate terrorist incidents so I am entitled to a 7 billion dollar sttlement. Yes your honor we'll name one of the new buildings after you.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. Another line of investigation that got stuffed....I wonder why?
Never found the perps spreading waeaponized Anthrax from our own labs, either.

And I've yet to hear a lucid explanation how our $400BB/year military headquarters manages to get hit 52 minutes after the 2nd plane hits the WTC, without any AF intercept.
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. yeah the anthrax
now thats real weird, i remember everyone was crapping themselves in DC, scared to open the mail and everything. Was real freaky.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #53
59. Particularly when the WhiteHouse started taking Cipro before the
attack. And it went to only Democratic majority leader and NBC News. Like maybe someone was sending a message....don't ask questions?

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #53
60. Welcome to TerrorLand
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #42
56. After the election theft and the audaciousness of the nominations and
the horror of deaths by voting...it's time to talk about 9-11 again because that day can't die without justice. And justice won't be found in the country of Iraq.

We suffered from a criminal act, but there isn't any criminal investigation, just secrecy and a few thousand/hundred thousand deaths with a country partly demolished and mostly caucasian corporations running the show with the help of a so-called military madman and his Sharon-Israel benefactor-facilitator-operatives.

Nothing like bringing peace and prosperity to the world and not being hypocritical.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #42
101. You go right ahead and "keep asking"...
...and I'll keep laughing along with most of the rest of the sensible world...
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
47. Yes, ask them if the NTSB investigated it or was it just the military with
the FBI a la an Ashcroft-Rumsfeld special investigation?

I'll be willing to see it all debunked in an NTSB report with photos of the aircraft and signed by trustworthy non-politicians who are not all right wingers and certainly not an aircraft and crash expert from PNAC.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:11 AM
Original message
sorry dupe
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 12:12 AM by seemslikeadream
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
52. hehehe
good one.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #52
63. Thanks Old and In the Way
Maybe we need some popcorn too!

:hi:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #63
71. I want some popcorn too!
:D

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Sure Swamp Rat and have something to drink too!


:hi:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. Mmmm! That will go great with crawfish!
Good thing a brought some. :)

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
50. Anyone want some pizza?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
54. interesting
Despite the fact we have some who have witness that parrot the same story as the MSM, I feel this event needs to be investigated more deeply. I have seen witnesses that say polar opposites about what happened, so why are they "nuts" and "aren't sure what they saw?" But witnesses who say they saw the jumbo, are right on target (no pun intended). I agree with another poster who says...release the damn videos from the hotels and highways, prove it happened the way you said. I don't believe ANYTHING this administration says! If they released a memo saying the moon was round, I would run outside just to double-check! They are liars! They lie about shit that isn't even important....remember the presidential bike ride on the muddy roads of Texas in the area that hadn't had rain in three weeks?
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henrik larssonisking Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. the question is mate
i have no doubt the plane hit, but i have no idea who was at the controls.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. that is just ONE of many questions
I do not doubt that this administration would sacrifice citizens to further its agenda. I have often thought (apply tin-foil) that 9-11 happened when Shrub was at his lowest ranking and something was going on; perhaps, he was about to be impeached, the election fraud was about to bust open, something big, then, 9-11 and NOTHING he did was wrong...all eyes were focused else where. History will eventually uncover our history. I just hope 200 hundred years from now, they don't think WE were too stupid and realize that this administration was nothing short of evil.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. They lie in press conferences and in sworn testimony besides
little accidents or pass outs.
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RockStar Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
72. Welcome to the Jungle.
Now the part you havent saw is how the airline was rerouted to another airport people were put in a building. the building were blown up. Then a drone was sent with a missle to crash at the pentegon. Americans are so stupid they actualy beleive an airline crashed into the pententgon and wtc.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. I certainly hope that was sarcasm...
:eyes:
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RockStar Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. The Truth Hurts...People need to wake up
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #84
108. You DO know that the radar data doesn't support your contention,don't you?
...if I understand you correctly...
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #72
97. Ummm...
...right... :eyes:
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no_arbusto Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
81. Paging Mercutio ATC
Is he here yet? Does he still want to debate the plane being shot down over Somerset, PA? Cell phones on planes? Etc...
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #81
106. What are you asking, specifically?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
89. It's amazing how the debunkers come out for this stuff, but
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 01:39 AM by Minstrel Boy
won't touch the real stuff.

Like I said a few days ago:

"Coincidentalists sure cherry pick the threads to pile on. They love the "no plane hit the Pentagon" stuff. But give them conspiracy facts - things like BCCI, the CIA's drug trafficking, and Sibel Edmonds - and they're as scarce as a Senator's son in Iraq."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #89
100. If you can believe Sibel Edmonds, watch Bush sit in the school,
here Clark the repubican scream, "they did nothing"...to me, the missile does not seem far fetched. I just want to see the security video and know where the wings went and I'll let it go. Why no official congessional investigation? Why won't bush testify?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. I want to see the security video too, but
a missile is far fetched to me, and the whole theory a distraction for and a discredit to the 9/11 movement.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #102
103. I feel that way when people say the towers were blown up. But the pentagon
stuff has too many questions. It would be easy to lay to rest,but they won't.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #100
110. Are you also
aware of the speculation on stock before 911. Investigation was stopped on it with crappy answer.
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T Town Jake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
96. Too often around here...
..to the point of ad nauseum, and a fair share of it is posted by trolls. Every bit of it is undistilled horseshit.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #96
114. I resent that!
kinda below the belt eh T Town!
:hurts:
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
98. You know, there's an entire forum dedicated to this stuff...
Skinner has been kind enough to dedicate an entire forum here at DU for September 11

If you are interested in this there is a huge amount of stuff there already, including a handful of threads on this very video.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #98
107. I've already suffested the thread be moved.
My bet is that it'll be moved in the morning.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
112. debunked a gazillion times
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 08:16 AM by WoodrowFan
I used to think that it wa sonly RWers who were gulliable to a well-made piece of crap like that file. The constant refrains of "did you see this!" pretty much destroyed THAT illususion.

First, go to this thread in the DU..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Second: read what I pasted below

third: get a clue, PLEASE.

I'll sum up:
- damage at Pentagon consistent with crash of Flt 77 into it.
- hundreds of eyewitnesses
- remains of paggances and their personal effects identified at scene
conclusion: Ft77 deniers in same class as creationists.

Some Links..


http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33 /

http://www.criticalthrash.com/terror/crashthumbnails.ht ...

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon_20020316 ....


http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm


Eyewitness Accounts...

"USAToday.com Editor Joel Sucherman saw it all: an American Airlines jetliner fly left to right across his field of vision as he commuted to work Tuesday morning. It was highly unusual. The large plane was 20 feet off the ground and a mere 50 to 75 yards from his windshield. Two seconds later and before he could see if the landing gear was down or any of the horror-struck faces inside, the plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon 100 yards away. 'My first thought was he's not going to make it across the river to National Airport. But whoever was flying the plane made no attempt to change direction,' Sucherman said. 'It was coming in at a high rate of speed, but not at a steep anglealmost like a heat-seeking missile was locked onto its target and staying dead on course."
- "Journalist Witnesses Pentagon Crash." eWeek.com, 13 Sep 2001


"On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001

"I was supposed to have been going to the Pentagon Tuesday morning at about 11:00am (EDT) and was getting ready, and thank goodness I wasn't going to be going until later. It was so shocking, I was listening to the news on what had happened in New York, and just happened to look out the window because I heard a low flying plane and then I saw it hit the Pentagon. It happened so fast... it was in the air one moment and in the building the next..."
- "U.S. Under Attack: Your Eyewitness Accounts." BBC News, 14 Sep 2001

"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."
- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."
- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

"'I mean it was like a cruise missile with wings, went right there and slammed into the Pentagon,' eyewitness Mike Walter said of the plane that hit the military complex. 'Huge explosion, great ball of fire, smoke started billowing out, and then it was just chaos on the highway as people either tried to move around the traffic and go down either forward or backwards,' he said."
- "Witnesses and Leaders on Terrorist Attacks." CNN, 11 Sep 2001

"'(The plane) was flying fast and low and the Pentagon was the obvious target,' said Fred Gaskins, who was driving to his job as a national editor at USA Today near the Pentagon when the plane passed about 150 feet overhead. 'It was flying very smoothly and calmly, without any hint that anything was wrong.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

'I saw the tail of a large airliner. ... It plowed right into the Pentagon," said an Associated Press Radio reporter who witnessed the crash. 'There is billowing black smoke.'"
- "America's Morning of Terror." ChannelOne.com, 2001

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Steve Eiden, a truck driver, had picked up his cargo that Tuesday morning in Williamsburg, Va., and was en route to New York City and witnessed the aftermath. ... He took the Highway 95 loop in the area of the Pentagon and thought it odd to see a plane in restricted airspace, thinking to himself it was odd that it was flying so low. 'You could almost see the people in the windows,' he said as he watched the plane disappear behind a line of trees, followed by a tall plume of black smoke. Then he saw the Pentagon on fire, and an announcement came over the radio that the Pentagon had been hit."
- "Sept. 11, the Day America Changed." The Baxter Bulletin, 2001

"Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon as the road winds and we line up to cross the 14th Street bridge heading into the District of Columbia. I dont know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just 'No, no, no, no,' because it was obvious the plane was not heading to nearby Reagan National Airport. It was going to crash."
- "September 11 Remembered." University Week, 4 Oct 2001

Father Stephen McGraw was driving to a graveside service at Arlington National Cemetery the morning of Sept. 11, when he mistakenly took the Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard, putting him in a position to witness American Airlines Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon. 'I was in the left hand lane with my windows closed. I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars.' McGraw estimates that the plane passed about 20 feet over his car, as he waited in the left hand lane of the road, on the side closest to the Pentagon. 'The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. I saw it crash into the building,' he said. 'My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression,' he said. 'There was an explosion and a loud noise and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows (of the Pentagon). I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows.'"
- "Pentagon Crash Eyewitness Comforted Victims." MDW News Service, 28 Sep 2001

"I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
- Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA Today

"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."
- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 2002

"Northern Virginia resident John O'Keefe was one of the commuters who witnessed the attack on the Pentagon. 'I was going up 395, up Washington Blvd., listening to the the news, to WTOP, and from my left side-I don't know whether I saw or heard it first- I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,' said the 25-year-old O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication about lobbying. 'It came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, "That's not going to make it to National Airport." And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black, thick smoke.'"
- "Terrorist 'Situation'." American Lawyer Media, 11 Sep 2001

Unfit For Command

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. Lime-green debris PROVES that it wasn't a 1991 757
and that is the plane -- N544AA -- that we are told crashed into the Pentagon.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Plus that BTS database has NO RECORD of that plane ever taking off.

American Airlines has been asked to produce the manifest and to give an account of that plane.
American Airlines has been gagged by the Boston FBI.
American Airlines/Boston FBI gave information to the 911 Omission Committee
that had people boarding BOTH Flight 11 as well as Flight 77
AFTER the planes had left the gate and were taxiing down the runway. And I am talking about HIJACKERS.

If the HIJACKERS did not make it onto the plane
BEFORE the doors were closed,
then how in tarnation did they manage to hijack those two AA flights?
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exploited Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. Interesting eyewitness reports there -- 4 from USA Today employees
Given the witnesses with names:
8 didn't see the aircraft strike the Pentagon.
6 people did -- 3 who worked for USA Today; 1 worked for the Pentagon; 1 was a priest *gasp* who's account is contradicted by a senior Navy Times writer; and the remaining is a pilot who said the jet crashed into the ground dissipating most of the energy before hitting the building.
3 of them mention the C-130 closely following the AA jet.

You cut'n'paste bandit you :P Those quotes appear all over the interwebnetwork in this format. Surely you looked a little deeper before they helped form your opinion. In case you didn't, I did, just in the interest of objectivity.

Joel Sucherman - USAtoday.com editor
"I heard a sonic boom and then the impact, the explosion. ... There were light poles down."
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses...

"Within a minute another plane started veering up and to the side. At that point it wasn't clear whether that plane was trying to maneuver out of the way and out of the air space or if that plane was coming around for another hit as well. That plane ended up disappearing into the sky."
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/F77penta10.html
Heard sonic boom before impact (757's don't go that fast!), saw second aircraft


Allen Cleveland - train passenger
"I was just pulling in on the subway station just at National Airport. I just happened to look over - actually my back was facing in the direction of the Pentagon - I looked to the right of the train as we were coming into the station, and noticed a jet flying in real low, about a mid-sized passenger jet flying in. I know it was silver, that's the only thing I know."
http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses... (your link)

"Soon after the crash (Within 30 seconds of the crash) I witnessed a military cargo plane (Possibly a C130) fly over the crash site and circle the mushroom cloud. My brother inlaw also witnessed the same plane following the jet while he was on the HOV lanes in Springfield. He said that he saw a jetliner flying low over the tree tops near Seminary RD in Springfield, VA. and soon afterwards a military plane was seen flying right behind it."
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses...
http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses... (your link)
Didn't see crash. Saw C-130 following jet


Frank Probst - retired army officer/information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program
"and I saw this plane coming right at me at what seemed like 300 mph. I dove towards the ground and watched this great big engine from this beautiful airplane just vaporize."
http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses...

He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away.
http://www.911-strike.com/pentagon-all.htm
The engine missed him by about 6 feet i.e. the aircraft had a very low altitude at the time. How close was he to the building? How did he survive the blast unscathed? The web has some speculation that he was employed to "manage information"


Mike Walter - journalist USA Today
"I said 'that plane is really flying low,"' he said in an interview. " It disappeared and I heard the explosion and saw a ball of fire. It was an American Airlines plane. You saw a big silver plane and those double A's."
http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/eyewitness-acc...
Didn't see it crash


Fred Gaskins - national editor USA Today
"(The plane) was flying fast and low and the Pentagon was the obvious target,"
(...)
It was flying very smoothly and calmly, without any hint that anything was wrong.'"
http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses...
No hint that anything was wrong -- except the effin' obvious??


Aydan Kizildrgli - an English language student who is a native of Turkey
We have no evidence that this person said anything about seeing a plane hit the Pentagon
http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/eyewitness-acc...

Kizildrgli was found wandering in an Arlington neighborhood about five miles from the Pentagon an hour after the crash.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/attack-u...
Spurious witness??


Omar Campo - an Arlington cemetry gardener
Omar Campo, gardening in Arlington Cemetary, saw a
passenger plane, over his head, and shortly afterward felt
the ground shake with an explosion.
http://www.fourwinds10.com/news/05-government/C-fraud/0...
Didn't see the crash


Afework Hagos - computer programmer/ consultant for Nextel
saw the plane bank around and fly into the Pentagon, its wings see-sawing before it disappeared.
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/globe_s...
Didn't see it crash


Tim Timmerman - pilot
"And then it came out, and I saw it hit right in front of -- it didn't appear to crash into the building; most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, but I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward, and then the conflagration engulfed everything in flames. It was horrible."
http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/eyewitness-acc...
The pristine lawn wasn't used to dissipate any energy


Steve Eiden - truck driver
'witnessed the aftermath'
(...)
'he watched the plane disappear behind a line of trees, followed by a tall plume of black smoke'
http://www.awitness.org/journal/pentagon_passenger_jet_...
Didn't see the crash


Father Stephen McGraw - Opus Dei priest and former Justice Department attorney
"I saw it crash into the building,"
Praise Jeebus. Let Him speak the truth through thy servant!

"After seeing the plane crash a split-second later, I assumed that it was a terrible accident, and, with my holy oil and stole and manual of care for the sick, I left my car, crossed over the other lanes of traffic, which remained at a standstill, and onto the lawn of the Pentagon."
http://www.catholicherald.com/articles/02articles/mcgra...

Mark Faram (senior writer with the Navy Times newspaper) said that he saw the priest leap out of his car and go to aid others yet Faram also said he didn't arrive at the crash scene until ten minutes after the crash.
http://www.911-strike.com/eyewitness_explicit.htm
http://www.911-strike.com/eyewitness_debris.htm#FaramMa...
Hmmm, who is mistaken?


Steve Anderson - Director of Communications, USA Today
"I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball"
Once again, nice lawn out front


Henry Ticknor - intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington
As he neared the church, he was stunned to see the plane dip to the horizon in front of him, and then see the cloud of smoke rise up.
http://www.uua.org/news/2002/91102/reflection3.html
Didn't see the crash


John O'Keefe - managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication
"There was no huge explosion, no huge rumbling on ground, it just went pfff. It wasnt what I would have expected for a plane that was not much more than a football field away from me."

"The first thing I did was pull over onto the shoulder, and when I got out of the car I saw another plane flying over my head, and it scared ...me,
(...)
Then the plane -- it looked like a C-130 cargo plane -- started turning away from the Pentagon, it did a complete turnaround.
http://www.nylawyer.com/news/01/09/091201l.html
Didn't see the crash. Did see the C-130


All this amateur sleuthing that you & I (and millions of others) are indulging in yeilds nothing concrete. It certaintly isn't able to provide you with proof to vehemently claim the high ground. The issue remains open to speculation. You can thank your government for that.

A previous poster questioned why the nutters are so vocal on this issue yet remain silent about other subverted bastions of state. I think the question has a simple two-part answer.
1. Clearly, we're not comfortable feeding on the government's bullshit explanations
2. This was the 'Pearl Harbour Event' for The War on Terra.

It's still a hot topic -- until the truth comes out
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #117
118. nice try
Edited on Sun Jan-30-05 08:38 AM by WoodrowFan
RH had a website with more accounts. )I think it was RH) Some DUers know eyewitnesses, and some WERE eytewitnesses. A couple of points.

There were several USA Today eyewitnesses because their offices are nearby. sheesh. That's as lame as the bozos who claim it's a plot because so many eyewitneses are government employees. IT WAS A FREAKING GOVERNMENT BUILDING IN DC. :eyes:

The UU Minister. um, if it didn't hit, where did it go? It couldn't have pulled up without him seeing it. Unless you're saying the plane disappeared into some sort of rip in the space-time continium. The same goes with other eyewitnesses who "didn't see the crash"

As for the others, gee, mustiple eyewitnesses saw slightly different things during a moment of panic.

What you ignore (as do all CTers) is that the eyewitnesses

1. all saw a plane
2. the vast majority saw an American Airlines airliner.

why don't the CTers nitpick and strawman their own websites? oh that's right, becuae one doesn't nitpick fairy tales.


Sorry, this is a "hot topic" the same way creationism and holocaust denial are "hot topics." People with an agenda (and that's the CTers, hint hint) refuse to admit that 2+2 equals 4.

bye bye.





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exploited Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-30-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. People with an agenda?
2+2=4, (end of discussion) bye, bye.??? I do see your point there.

Look, my point is many of these varied "CT's" are bizarre to say the least. From my perspective, they fit into the "only in America" category. Aren't conspiracy theory's just the result of the peoples' need to find more plausible explanations for events when the official government/media spin consistently fails to address them truthfully?

I didn't claim (or intend) to 'debunk' anything with my previous post. I thought I was just broadening the context of the selected eyewitness quotes you offered - playing devil's advocate with your polarised position. Obviously something hit the Pentagon and the witnesses have varied opinions of what they saw including type, size, colour and number of aircraft in the area at the time. Of course there was an explosion in the vicinity of these people too, so 2+2=4. Hey, do eyewitnesses have 'agendas' or government building employees for that matter; or is it just limited to CTers and DU posters?

BTW, that 'FREAKING GOVERNMENT BUILDING IN DC' that you mentioned. The hub of one of the world's best funded, most technologically advanced, most paranoid war machines -- taken out by box cutters despite being forewarned. That's as bizarre as any CT out there.

P.S. Don't forget, we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know.

Bye.
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