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Co-worker: Ivins Didn't Make the Anthrax

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 07:26 PM
Original message
Co-worker: Ivins Didn't Make the Anthrax
Edited on Fri Apr-23-10 07:32 PM by spooked911
http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display....

It is absolutely impossible that Bruce Ivins, accused of mailing anthrax and killing five people in 2001, could have created and cleaned up anthrax spores in the timeline and manner the FBI alleges, Ivins' former co-worker said Thursday.

The National Academy of Sciences brought in former USAMRIID microbacteriologist Henry Heine to explain spore preparation to the panel, which is tasked with investigating the science the FBI used to accuse Ivins, also a former microbacteriologist for the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases.

And though Heine discussed only scientific methods and technologies before the panel, he said afterward he firmly believes Ivins did not and could not have grown and prepared the anthrax.

Heine told the panel that the most common way of growing bacteria at USAMRIID is in flasks. Based on the number of envelopes mailed out (eight to 10), the concentration of spores in the powder (10 to the 12th power spores per gram) and the number of grams of anthrax per envelope (1 to 2 grams), he calculated there were at least 10 to the 13th power anthrax spores in the attacks. Under ideal conditions, growing anthrax in a flask could produce only 10 to the 11th power spores -- one hundredth of the total needed.

"At absolute best, if he pushed it, he could have possibly done it in a year," Heine said of Ivins, after the meeting.


Glenn Greenwald has some additional comments:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/...
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Keep digging, Spooked....
you're almost there!
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Eh?
SDuderstadt posts: "Keep digging, Spooked....you're almost there!"

What is that supposed to mean? An unsolved major crime has gone unsolved and this bit of news comes about the case and all you can offer is another snide can of your spam?

Where the hell do you get off posting such drivel?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Keep digging, BeFree....
you're almost there!
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Turn that loop off.
Jesus.
"Keep digging, you're almost there! Keep digging, you're almost there! Keep digging, you're almost there!"
Enough already.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. You mis-quote the article
Real quotes:

"he said afterward he firmly believes Ivins did not and could not have grown and prepared the anthrax."

"if he pushed it, he could have possibly done it in a year"
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I did *NOT* misquote the article
If you read the whole thing, it is clear that there is no way in hell that Ivins made the anthrax.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I was wrong, you did not mis-quote the article. Sorry
I missed the top link and only saw the one at the bottom, my fault, sorry. Sometimes I drink and post :D

It still comes across to me as more of a friend and co-worker not believing it was done by him then any proof of fact that it could not have been done. See what I quoted above.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. OK
but Heine makes very solid scientific points; it's hard to argue with what he says.

I think this is a really key point:
"But "the idea of lyophilizing this actually scares the hell out of me, this material is so fine." It would have contaminated the whole room when the air and moisture was vacuumed out, he said.

He said the lyophilizer at USAMRIID was not in the containment area, and if it had been used to prepare anthrax there would have been a trail of dead animals and people leading investigators to it."

Even if Ivins somehow made that much anthrax, he had to have outside help to lyophilize that much -- it would have had to have been in a specialized outside facility.

Given that there's no record Ivins ever grew that much anthrax, and that he couldn't have dried that much, it pretty much rules him out.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. What!!!!!!! You all of a sudden want records. Pllleeease
Given that there's no record Ivins ever grew that much anthrax, and that he couldn't have dried that much, it pretty much rules him out.

There isn't a record existing for a tenth of the nonsense you believe, but now if the record doesn't exist it's not possible.

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. they had extensive records of what Ivins did at his lab, and the FBI has referenced these records
my point is that if he did this, it would be in the record.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. So if I understand if he was doing something
illegal it would be in the lab records? Yes? No?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Didn't you previously say the silicon was the clincher? (n/t)
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. can't there be more than one "clincher"?
anyway, the silicon point was clear before. I didn't know-- until this article-- about the amount of culture required for that number of spores, or the problems with the idea that Ivins lyophilized the samples. Though now it makes sense.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Point is: it wasn't.
> anyway, the silicon point was clear before.

And as I said then, if you don't know how the anthrax was processed, then you aren't in any position to say Ivins couldn't have done it.

Committee member Murray Johnston asked about the silicon found in the anthrax spores, which some have said is a sign the anthrax was professionally weaponized and others have said could have naturally wound up in the anthrax.

Heine replied that many antifoams added to anthrax to be put in a fermenter contain silicon. So if the anthrax was grown in a fermenter, then "you can achieve the kind of percentages (of silicon) found in the letters with this process."

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display....

Now, you're doing the same thing -- reasoning from what you don't know -- about the quantity and the drying.

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tetedur Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-10 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for the links Spooked. nt
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threadtension Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. It seems that Spooked...
Edited on Mon May-17-10 03:55 PM by threadtension
...is one of the few reasonable posters in here.

Unbelieveable.

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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. yes it is very reasonable to believe
that anything that happens in the world(including the anthrax attacks) all comes back to the truth that the earth is under quarantine by an alien race and the moon is actually a giant spaceship.
very very reasonable indeed.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. The Connection between 9/11, Anthrax and Iraq
"Dr. Graeme MacQueen: The Connection between 9/11, Anthrax and Iraq"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmRNoDNH-Ps&feature=play...
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deconstruct911 Donating Member (809 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kroll = private CIA = 9 11 & anthrax
This was connected to Jerome Hauer managing director of Kroll- the private CIA- which was in charge of security at the entire WTC complex!

watch "WKJO" or go to this link:
http://911review.org/Wget/winterpatriot/jerome-hauer.ht...


"put options and military anthrax=facts"
----
Jerome Hauer told white house to take Cipro anti-anthrax drug before anthrax scare.

Hauer (@ Kroll) found ex-FBI top expert on Bin Laden, Al-Qaeda, terrorism, John O'Neill job as head security after O'Neill quit FBI due to hampered investigations.

John O'Neill dies at WTC on 911: 1st or 2nd day of job

Jerome Hauer on ABC on 911 : "no planted explosives : just planes" ... "no state sponsored act : just Bin Laden"

He knew this on 911?

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-12 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. kick
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