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RFK must die: The Assassination of Bobby Kennedy- documentary

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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:06 AM
Original message
RFK must die: The Assassination of Bobby Kennedy- documentary
For those in the states who have not seen this you can watch on line for free.
This documentary has been shown on TV in Europe. I just watched it and all I can say is WOW.



From Amazon comment section the doc is given 4 stars




This review is from: RFK Must Die: The Assassination of Bobby Kennedy (DVD)
Shane O'Sullivan has done a fine job here. This is a fascinating look at the world of the LAPD such as it was in the sixties. Listen and you will hear of witnesses being pressured by LAPD investigators to change their stories to conform to the official version of events, that Sirhan acted alone. It is possible that certain CIA officials were present that night. Intriguing photographic evidence and eye witness testimony is introduced on that score, and the viewer is left to draw his or her own conclusions. Ed Lopez, a former congressional investigator gives a positive i.d. of George Joannides, a now dead CIA official who was heavily involved with the Cuban exiles. CIA's stern refusal to provide any information on Joannides hardly helps its case before the general public. Wayne Smith, a diplomat under JFK knew David Morales well and gives a positive i.d. of him. The interview with Rocky Carbajal a rough hewn lifelong pal of David Morales, is quite interesting. Carbajal does not believe Morales was at the Ambassador Hotel that night, but he is certain Morales was involved in the murder of JFK. Carbajal believes the murders of both Kennedy brothers were CIA operations. Included also are tapes of Sirhan's hypnosis session which is very eery to listen to. The LAPD destroyed evidence in the case and many documents, leaving the viewer with little confidence in the official story. But O'Sullivan may have opened a door towards the truth, though it may now be too late to get the whole story.
A new development is being announced in this case. This was posted at JFKLancer.com:
" Scientific Audio Evidence

Reveals Second Gunman in RFK Assassination


In 2004 the only known audio tape of the RFK assassination was discovered stored in the California State Archives in Sacramento, CA by an investigative journalist. Recorded by independent journalist Stanislaw Pruszynski, it is the only known audio recording that contains the actual shots fired during the shooting on June 5, 1968 in Los Angeles.


Three years ago, Philip Van Praag, an expert in the forensic analysis of magnetic media recordings, began studying the audio tape with startling results; the tape revealed between 10 and 13 shots fired. The presence of 10 shots is highly significant because Sirhan's handgun could fire no more than eight shots without reloading. Additionally, two of the shots occured so close together that they could not have been fired by the same gunman; strong evidence of a second gun being fired by someone other than Sirhan.


Van Praag will present his unique scientific testing methods and results at 4:00pm on February 21st at the American Academy of Forensic Scientists (AAFS) meeting in Washington DC. His presentation is entitled "Acoustic Analysis of Gunshot Recordings Utilizing Frequency Selective Integrated Loudness Envelope Evaluation". AAFS is the world's most prestigious forensic science organization. As a professional society dedicated to the application of science to the law, the AAFS is committed to the promotion of education and the elevation of accuracy, precision, and specificity in the forensic sciences.


Phil Van Praag's involvement in the audio field has spanned the past 45 years, with forensic analysis of magnetic media recordings included over 35 of those years. The context of his involvement in the field has been embodied both within his professional career and as a result of ongoing independent study. In that regard, he has maintained a substantial laboratory facility with considerable scientific instrumentation with which to conduct his research.


Possessing a Master of Science degree in Engineering (Electrical), Van Praag's professional employment background has included, most recently, a position of Vice President of Information Technology (IT) for the American Heart Association. Prior to that, he was the Chief Information Officer & Vice President of IT for Applied Power, Inc. He had previously worked as a Director of Information Systems at R.R. Donnelley & Sons Co., and the Technical Head of Automated Data Management at Hughes Aircraft Co. He has also held engineering related positions at Ampex Corporation as a Senior Instructor in their Professional Audio/Video Systems division, and in technical laboratory work at Bell Telephone Laboratories, Sandia National Laboratories, and IBM."

http://www.amazon.com/RFK-Must-Die-Assassination-Kenned...


From IMDB .... the movie data base

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1047517 /


Plot Summary for
RFK Must Die: The Assassination of Bobby Kennedy (2007) More at IMDbPro


A new investigative documentary exploring the controversies surrounding the assassination of Bobby Kennedy on June 5, 1968 as he looked set to challenge Nixon for the White House. Munir Sirhan tells how his brother Sirhan has never been able to remember the shooting. Sandra Serrano speaks for the first time in forty years about the girl in the polka-dot dress fleeing the scene, yelling "We shot him! We shot him!" And Dr. Herbert Spiegel of Columbia University describes how Sirhan was hypnotically programmed to kill Robert Kennedy



WATCH IT FOR FREE-

HERE-

http://www.documentary-log.com/you-are-watching-rfk-mus...
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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. K and R for the thread
I will see the film later.

Rfk would have investigated the death of jfk. Reason enough to keep him out of the white house.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The first part
gives the legacy of Bobby's life and speeches and the official background and story of his murder.
Then it gets VERY interesting with all the CIA connections, plus interviews with X-CIA agents and witnesses
Most of the second section is very new to even someone who followed the assassination over the years.

This is what we get to see on European TV.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-14-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. I like the way the maker of this film introduces counter evidence
and owns up to what he's not sure about.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
117. Do you know about the book...

"Farewell America: The Plot to Kill JFK"? This book was supposedly written by French Intelligence and was based on investigations led by Robert Kennedy and Sen. Moynihan. It was such a powerful indictment against the powers-that-be that it was banned from the US (published in France) and only within the last decade was allowed back in. These days it is probably less harmful because we have been programmed to believe that anything remotely resembling a conspiracy theory must be false.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. k/r
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. CIA Director Richard Helms'
Testimony is shown before the Church Committee and the House Committee and his CONTEMPT is clearly shown to both houses

He was the only director to have been convicted of lying to the United States Congress over Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) undercover activities. In 1977, he was sentenced to the maximum fine and received a suspended two-year prison sentence.

Following the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Helms was made Deputy Director of the CIA under Admiral William Raborn. A year later, in 1966, he was appointed Director.


Helms's ultimate undoing was the CIA's role, at Nixon's behest, in the subversion of Chile's socialist government (Project FUBELT), and the overthrow of that country's democratically elected president, Salvador Allende, on September 11, 1973. According to Helms, Nixon had ordered the CIA to support a military coup to prevent Allende from becoming president in 1970. However, following the assassination of Army Commander-in-Chief General Ren Schneider by elements of the military, public support swung behind Allende, and he took office in October 1970. Subsequently, the CIA funneled millions of dollars to opposition groups and striking truck drivers in a continuing effort to destabilize the Allende government.

During his ambassadorial confirmation hearings before the Senate, Helms was questioned concerning the CIA's role in the Chilean affair. Because the operations were still secret and the hearings were public events, Helms denied that the CIA had ever aided Allende's opposition. However, later information uncovered by the Church Committee hearings showed that Helms's statements were false, and he was prosecuted and convicted in 1977. He received a two-year suspended sentence and a $2,000 fine. He wore the conviction as a badge of honor, and his fine was paid by friends from the CIA.

In 1972, Helms ordered the destruction of most records from the huge MKULTRA project, over 150 CIA-funded research projects designed to explore any possibilities of mind control. The project became public knowledge two years later, after a New York Times report.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Helms
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-14-10 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
65. Sirhan's post-hypnotic suggestion displayed by Michael Wayne
Speaking of DCI Richard Helms and his rush to conceal evidence of the MKULTRA Program. Sirhan, in this video(7:05), gave a great description of how this manifested itself. You can actually see it in the face of Michael Wayne...


Pre-assassination he has sort of a sleepy look -- post-assassination Michael Wayne appears as though someone or something has flipped on a switch -- just as Sirhan describes.


YouTube - RFK Assassination: The Girl In The Polka Dot Dress (Part 3 of 3)

RFK Signing Poster In Pantry - The Education Forum

The Education Forum -> Robert Kennedy

II. The Coup
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. April 16, 1943: Worlds First Acid Trip

One of the main tools in the MKULTRA arsenal 'celebrates' a dubious anniversary today.


http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/04/0416hofmann-...

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-27-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #65
115. Sirhan Sirhan: I was brainwashed' into killing
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Sander and Sandy

Sander "Sandy" Vanocur, seen here interviewing RFK, interviewed Sandra "Sandy" Serrano immediately following the RFK Assassination.

The fact that Sandy Serrano went on a live National Broadcast, giving a far different story than the official narrative, namely that Sirhan did it. She became a problem that the LAPD (Hank Hernandez) needed to deal with...

As illustrated in the clips below:

RFK Assassination: The Girl In The Polka Dot Dress(1-3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoRG5cMrfIk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSgcr00Ou-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw3PXULxqXg

RFK Assassination: Multiple Shooters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llo0WMJ94eo

...
More about 23-minutes into the clips below:

http://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black510a.mp3
http://www.blackopradio.com/black510a.ram
...
Sirhan and the RFK Assassination
Part I: The Grand Illusion

http://www.ctka.net/pr398-rfk.html

Sirhan and the RFK Assassination
Part II: Rubik's Cube

http://www.ctka.net/2011/Grand_Illusionpt2.html
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-11 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. "RFK Assassination: Another U.S. Govt. Cover Up"
RFK Assassination: Another U.S. Govt. Cover Up (Part 1 of 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czBD0-AJm-U

Part two :

http://www.youtube.com/user/Cincinnati911Truth

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. RFK Assassination: Multiple Shooters

Thane Eugene Caesar's tie lays next to Bobby after he managed to pull it off his killer.


Another good video here.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #115
136. Convicted RFK assassin Sirhan Sirhan seeks prison release
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. They laughed at us all when they finally destroyed RFK and MLK. They knew they had beaten us.
They're still laughing their sick fucking heads off at us, especially after the corporate press convinced so many Americans to elect George W. Bush.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. +1
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you for this. I'm bookmarking to watch later.
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. RFK was shot in the back at point blank range...
and Sirhan was always to his front and never within 3 feet, according to witnesses and the coroner's report. The security guard BEHIND RFK opened fire, according to witnesses.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Robert_Kenned...

The official story of this assassination is the easiest one, of all the ones in the '60s, to disprove, IMO.

Bill
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. This Documentary tags the CIA agents that were there in film and photographs
Who they worked for and what agency within the CIA they worked for
by other CIA agents and Embassy liaisons. Also has the recording of Sirhan's regression hypnosis.

You won't be disappointed
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. And that's why people on the scene wrestled Sirhan to the ground,
finally wrested the gun away from him, and why Sirhan decades later in prison admitted it all and regretted it all.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Yes...Rosey Grier and George Plimpton to be exact.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks.
I read the book on H2O Man's rec.
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unabelladonna Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
......
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. What does that mean?
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peace frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. ****crickets****
The silence speaks volumes.
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democraticinsurgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. I've seen it, it's outstanding
Thanks for posting its availability. Everyone who wonders how we ended up in this mess in 2010 should watch "RFK Must Die". I think most people realize that the JFK assassination was an orchestrated coup, but there never seems to be much discussion of RFK's assassination.

Highly recommended.
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rusty quoin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. k&r, and thanks for the free documentary link.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I have another link for Great Documentaries
It has many BBC, NOVA, BBC Horizon, National Geographic documentaries plus even ones
outside of the box in all categories such as Science, History, Psychology, Philosophy, Biography etc.

Its one of my favorite sites.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com /

You can even watch Michael Moore's Movie on Capitalism
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rusty quoin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Great! Thanks
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-14-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
61. Bookmarked. Thank you! Watching the one on MLK today.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. Where are the bullets?
These audio tape guys always claim more shot were fired.

Where are the other guns? Where are the bullets, the eyewitnesses seeing other shooters, etc.?
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. You didn't watch it
because that's not what its about.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Reply to "where are the bullets?"
Edited on Sun Apr-11-10 11:35 AM by k-robjoe
Have a look at part two of the documentary, two minutes out.

FBI-agent William Bailey telling about how he witnessed two bullets being removed from the doorframe.

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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. What you're talking about then is a massive conspiracy involving coroners
police, federal agents, secret service, and perhaps even members of the Kennedy family like Sen. Edward Kennedy.

Ockham's Razor would suggest that's a labored hypothesis--that there is a simpler explanation.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Im half way through the documentary
But I wont be able to watch the last two parts until tomorrow.

Its mighty interesting so far. Just the way they treated the witness who saw the girl in the polka dot dress leaving the scene, tells you that something is very wrong.

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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Disappearing bullets, and disappearing witness testimonies
Just want to add that its really the same thing.

If anyone doubt that they would remove the bullets from the doorframe, and then simply make them disappear, let them watch the section about how the vital testimony about the girl in the polka dot dress was repressed. How one of the witnesses was bullied until she agreed to just retract her testimony.

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. "the girl in the polka dot dress" - Just like one of them Film noir whodunit's, huh?
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. So what we have is
So what we have is that witnesses saw this girl in a polka dot dress together with Sirhan Sirhan.

But since it sounds so much like a "Film noir whodunit", it is only natural that these witnesses must be ignored, or bullied until they cant take it anymore, and agree to drop their testimony.

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. No, what we "have" is the same 'ole CT'er daydream scenario: heavy on speculation (and uninformed
speculation, at that); "interesting" juxtapositions that are anything but; non stop rhetorical questions; and big heaping scoops of argumentation by incredulity - and not one speck of credible, verifiable proof to back up whatever fantasy assassination scenario is been spun.

That's pretty much what we have.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. People will have to watch
Edited on Mon Apr-12-10 02:16 PM by k-robjoe
People will have to watch the documentary and judge for themselves if that is the way to go about an investigation, bullying witnesses until they break down, and ignoring other witnesses that tell the same story.

Your reply made me google a bit, and I came across another film about this. Its from 1973, and is titled "The Second Gun" :

http://freedocumentaries.org/int.php?filmID=322

( Had to click "Watch the film" a couple of times to get it going. )

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Teach the controversy. n/t
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Sorry, I dont get what youre saying
( English is not my first language. )

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. "Teach the controversy" is a phrase used by creationists.
When creationists seek to infiltrate the scientific classrooms they have been rightly banished from, they use the phrase "teach the controversy" to imply there is merit on both sides of the issue and that they deserve equal and unfettered access to the uninformed in order to make their case, as if being able to convince the uninformed demonstrated the validity of their thesis.

But there is no controversy among scientific authorities regarding evolution. It's a fact. The theory of evolution continues to undergo scientific scrunity, revision, and confirmation, but evolution itself is an observable, verifiable fact.

Those that advocate for various conspiracy theories when confronted by the actual facts refuting their theories tend to take this same approach. Let the uninformed viewer decide, they say. Yet their ability to persuade the uninformed is testament only to that, not to the truth of their theories. You might be able to convince the world of an RFK conspiracy theory, but that would not change the facts about the assassination.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. OK, so when Im saying that bullying
Edited on Mon Apr-12-10 03:06 PM by k-robjoe
witnesses in the manner shown in the documentary, is definitely not the way to carry out an investigation, Im the creationist.

And the guy saying, "well why wouldnt they bully the witnesses, and ignore the witnesses, come on, a girl in a polka dot dress, thats just so film noir", hes the scientist.

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Ah, yes, another CT'er standby: just make shit up, and put words in the opposite numbers mouth.
""well why wouldnt they bully the witnesses, and ignore the witnesses"

Point us to the post where I typed those words - or even remotely implied them.

Since you cannot, I'll accept your apology in advance.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Maybe all three of us agree
Edited on Mon Apr-12-10 04:48 PM by k-robjoe
Maybe all three of us agree, that this kind of investigation is a parody of an investigation.

Isnt this so? You agree that this kind of investigation is a joke, dont you?

And that when I write :

>"People will have to watch the documentary and judge for themselves if that is the way to go about an investigation, bullying witnesses until they break down, and ignoring other witnesses that tell the same story."

it is a really strange thing that this bring up this talk about creationists.

I think that is a really strange thing.

I havent really been into any discussions here for a long time, so Im out of habbit with all the yelling all the time. "Nutcase! Nutcase! Creationist! Etc." Even when what youre saying is that its a parody of an investigation, if youre bullying and ignoring crucial witnesses.

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I can only speak for myself, but I don't agree with you at all. For starters, I don't accept your
initial premises - that the investigation into RFK's assassination was a "joke" in any way, shape, or form. Indeed, the LAPD did a thorough and quite professional investigation that was a model of criminal procedure for its time, 1968. I believe the people making these claims are dubious characters with a motive to lie for any number of reasons.

I think claims of a conspiracy to assassinate Senator Kennedy are the real "joke" - and a disgrace to his memory.

And BTW, correcting you on your manifest errors does not constitute "yelling."
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. LAPD did a thorough and quite professional investigation???
You either forgot the sarcasm emoticon or you never heard of Hank Hernandez and Manny Pena. With his browbeating of Sandy Serrano, Hank Hernandez filled a role in the LAPD similar to that of the role Marrell McCollough played in the Memphis PD.

Here's a couple videos that contain good quality audio from Hernandez' interrogation of Serrano:

YouTube - RFK Assassination: The Girl In The Polka Dot Dress (Part 2 of 3)

YouTube - RFK Assassination: The Girl In The Polka Dot Dress (Part 3 of 3)

I'll leave the issue of the lAPD's mishandling of Scott Enyart's Photos for another time.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. They most certainly did - and all the links to loon websites & CT'ers own DU posts (*rollseyes*)
does not change that fact.

Sirhan Sirhan was the sole assassin of Senator Robert F. Kennedy, and there is not a speck of evidence that suggests otherwise. Please try again.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Why did Hank Hernandez push Sandy Serrano to change her story?
You know, since the case was so rock solid and all... :sarcasm:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Why did the dish run away with the spoon?
:shrug:

Because your assertion that "Hank Hernandez push(ed) Sandy Serrano to change her story" bears about as much relation to reality as that nursery rhyme.

Here's what actually happened: educate yourself.

Money quote:

"However, following this claim, LAPD criminologist DeWayne Wolfer conducted tests to determine if Serrano could have heard the shots from her location. He found that there would have been a change in sound level of 1/2 decibel at Serrano's location resulting from a shot being fired in the kitchen of the hotel, and concluded that she could therefore not have heard the shots as she claimed.<18> Additionally, Kranz comments in his report that Serrano admitted to fabricating the story following further interviews with investigating officers and that he was unable to find evidence to corroborate any aspect of the original account" (emphasis added).

Please try again.

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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. "Admitted to fabricating the story"
Edited on Tue Apr-13-10 04:34 AM by k-robjoe
Well, the tape recording explains how that happened. She was bullied until she cracked.

But maybe youre saying the tape recording is a fabrication?

----------------

It is strange with these things. I watch a documentary, and I find it very interesting. Maybe it was a conspiracy...

And then I probably wouldnt go any further with it. But then a couple of guys pop up, and says Im a typical CTer and a creationist for saying people will have to see this for themselves, and judge if bullying witnesses like that isnt just a parody of an investigation.

And then of course, I get annnoyed. And I end up watching another documentary, and another. Nice work guys. :)

Heres what I came across today :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llo0WMJ94eo&feature=play...
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Asked & answered. And as for the rest, I don't care WHAT nonsense you wish to believe - there are
grown men and women who believe that stepping on a crack will break their mother's back, and insist they can objectively "prove" it.

But if you're going to post nonsense here, expect to get called on it. You have been so called, and your counter-argument has been weak, to say the least.

Now you're just sputtering, clawing for that precious "last word." That is typical CT'er SOP, too, and you're free to own it.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I didnt get much sense out of that
Just more yelling, because I say that this kind of bullying witnesses is not investigation but parody.

I guess that is all you got. Yelling and namecalling.

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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. DeWayne Wolfer mislabeled People's Exhibit #55
Your boy DeWayne Wolfer sounds like a freakin clown in the FBI FOIA File...

http://foia.fbi.gov/rfkasumm/rfksumm1a.pdf

* Browbeating witnesses
* Mislabeling evidence
* Destroying evidence


If that's what you mean when you say that the LAPD did a thorough and quite professional investigation?

Then yes, Mission Accomplished.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. The Second Gun
Edited on Tue Apr-13-10 08:18 AM by k-robjoe
Im watching The Second Gun right now. And the part about the bullet trajectories, and the missing ceiling tiles, and about the left sleeve of Kennedys coat and shirt, that somehow went missing from the investigation ( all this at about 35 minutes out ) is kind of jawdropping.

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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #52
72. Left sleeve
Theyre saying in the documentary that the left sleeve of Robert Kennedys coat inexplicably went missing from the investigation. Does anyone know if that is correct?

And why did they take off the left sleeve in the first place?

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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-02-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
114. Re : Left sleeve
I came across this clip from History Channel.

At 1 min 58 secs out, they show an image of the jacket, with the left sleeve missing :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TknldheCBdw&NR=1

So I guess it is correct that the left sleeve went missing.

Has anyone heard any explanation, why the left sleeve would be missing?

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. "Your boy" - Haaaaa! How old are you?
And, of course, you can point to no examples of your implication, just post a PDF and pretend it proves what you want it to prove.

"DeWayne Wolfer mislabeled People's Exhibit #55"

Sirhan Sirhan was the sole person involved in the assassination of Senator Robert F. Kennedy, regardless of what got "mislabeled," period. No matter how much fluff you post that essential fact remains.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Do you prefer fellow Lone-Nutter?
Although, given Wolfer's manipulation of the evidence to fit the lone-nut myth, he had to know that there were at least 2 shooters that night.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-14-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. I know the debate is over and my facts have prevailed when the name-calling begins in earnest.
There was one shooter that night - Sirhan Sirhan. And there is not a speck of evidence that suggests otherwise. Get back to us when you have some. Discussion concluded.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-14-10 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
60. Whats your take on the Serrano audio tape Boloboffin?
Is your position that the tape is fabricated?

That would mean Serrano is in on the fabrication?

( Hope we will be able to discuss this, without all the namecalling. I just cant see that there is any justification for the namecalling just because Im assuming that the tape recording is genuine, and stating that what we hear on the tape is not investigation, but a parody. )

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jschurchin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
53. The Autopsy Doctor Does Away
with any fantasy speculation. He only deals in facts.
The senator had three gunshot wounds -- a head wound behind his right ear and two through the right armpit.

So he was shot three times. Now he must determine the trajectory and direction of the wounds.
The senator's head wound came from a back-to-front direction; the second wound was on the side, and the third was slightly shifted, indicating he was turning clockwise.

Now the question is how far away was the assailant?
We know that the three gunshot wounds were at close range. I had my staff construct a likeness of Kennedy's head and attach pig ears to this model, which was covered with cloth to absorb gunpowder. We hoped to create identical powder tattooings found at the edge of the right ear by using the suspected weapon and by shooting from various distances into the right mastoid. Moving away by distances of an inch, only when the muzzle was three inches behind the mastoid, around one inch behind the edge of the ear, did I get the exact duplicate of the actual death-shot powder tattoo.

3 inches.

So now we know, Sirhan Sirhan was 3 inches BEHIND Robert Kennedy. I don't care what any witnesses say, or what photographs that exists may say. The medical-legal documentation says he was 3 inches behind Bobby and that is that.


:sarcasm:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. I guess you think this some kind of biting repartee that "proves" something or the other.
Perhaps you should get your thoughts in better order before you hit that "post message" button.

Just a little friendly advice.
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jschurchin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. It's not that my friend.
It's just that people want to change the rules of the game as they go along. In the JFK assassination the people, like yourself, say the autopsy report PROVES two shots from behind, end of story. But in the RFK assassination, the autopsy report is discounted because it PROVES the fatal head shot was behind at a distance of 3 inches.

Sirhan fired a fatal head shot from three inches behind Robert Kennedy, and the Autopsy PROVES it.

Now do you have EVIDENCE to disprove this, or are you just another conspiracy theorist.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-14-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. You are just repeating things that have already been asked, answered, and debunked.
Edited on Wed Apr-14-10 08:10 PM by apocalypsehow
At this point, you're just doing the online equivalent of shrieking "because I said so!!!!11"

The bottom line is that there is not a scintilla of evidence that anyone other than Sirhan Sirhan assassinated Senator Kennedy, period. Get back to us when you have some. Discussion concluded.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. "seceded"
You might want to rethink the idea of calling another member "stupid"
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Whats your take on the Serrano audio tape SDuderstadt?
Is your position that the tape is fabricated?

That would mean Serrano is in on the fabrication?

( Im curious about this issue, and I cant seem to get a straight answer from anyone. )

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Sorry...I don't care...
I believe Sirhan killed RFK. Any large-scale, catastrophic event, by definition, contains unanswered questions, anomalies and conflicting recollections. I look at the convergence of evidence, where CT's believe every anomaly has to be interpreted in a manner to disprove the "official story" while casting aspersions on everyone involved in the investigation.

It's an enormous waste of time. It's been 42 years since RFK was killed and 47 since JFK. Maybe the reason the "puzzle" can't be solved is because it simply doesn't exist.
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Re : Sorry...I don't care...
OK. Its just that it is so alien to life here in Norway.

If there was a similar case in Norway, and a tape that appears to be from the investigation was used by a journalist that has made documentaries for the BBC, and the tape was fabricated, then people would know about it, know that the police says this tape is fabricated.

And so Im inclined to think that this is also the case in the U.S.

But I dont know.

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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
44. In RFK's case, it is the coroner's report that raised some of the questions
Edited on Mon Apr-12-10 09:32 PM by dflprincess
His autopy was conducted by Dr. Thomas Noguchi (at least RFK's autopsy was done by a forensic pathologist)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Noguchi

His autopsy of Kennedy is significant for its conclusion that the fatal shot was fired into the back of Kennedy's head, behind the right ear, from an upward angle, and from a distance of no more than one-and-a-half to three inches away. This has given rise to conspiracy theories regarding the assassination, as no witnesses reported seeing the convicted assassin, Sirhan Sirhan, in a position to fire such a shot.



http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/terrorists_spies/ass...

The shot that both Noguchi and the Los Angeles conclude killed Kennedy the one that entered the back of his neck, fragmented upon impact and lodged in his brain stem was fired so close that it left thick powder burns on the skin. Coroner Noguchi estimates (and the LAPD concurs) that the shot was fired at a range no more distant than one-and-a-half inches. Yet, according to all witnesses, Sirhan Sirhan shot in front of Kennedy and, as far as anyone knew, the senator never had the chance to turn his back towards his hunter.

Even though Noguchi remained tight-lipped and diplomatic at the time, in his biography that he penned a decade later entitled Coroner he wrote, "Until more is precisely known the existence of a second gunman remains a possibility. Thus, I have never said that Sirhan Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy."
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. as no witnesses reported seeing the convicted assassin, Sirhan Sirhan, in a position to fire such a
shot".

More importantly, no witness desscribed anyone else in a position to do so.

Simple question: why did Rosie Greer, Rafer Johnson, Pete Hamill and George Plimpton tackle Sirhan?
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-12-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I was only responding to the poster who said the coroner would have to be in on a cover up
Edited on Mon Apr-12-10 10:21 PM by dflprincess
clearly he was not as the autopsy report raised questions.

No one disputes that Sirhan had a gun and that is why he was tackled. The question is, was he the only one who had a gun - and even the coroner has wondered about that.

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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
78. "no witness desscribed anyone else in a position to do so."

Wrong.

As it happened, a security guard named Thane Eugene Cesar had a weapon with the same caliber and was right behind RFK when the shooting began. Remarkably, even though he admitted having drawn his gun and many witnesses reporting hearing shots from more than one weapon, no one ever asked to examine his gun.



Don Shulman of KNXT-TV, Los Angeles, saw Thane Cesar discharge his weapon.
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HelenWheels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Other bullets
If I remember correctly at least two bystanders were shot. My heart was broken when RFK was killed.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. Careful - asking CT'ers to provide *facts* to back up their "documentaries" & "research" almost
always tends to bring on a snitty pout, followed by reams and reams of phony "data" that proves absolutely nothing but looks like it is authoritative simply because of it's fantastic length - argumentum ad logorrheic, you might say.
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. also bookmarked it to watch tonight; thank you
I am one of those people who have very reluctantly become what many others, including here, dismiss as a "conspiracy theorist". I will watch this and see what I think; RFK's murder is not one I have studied much or questioned the official story of, but am open-minded. As far as the "conspiracy theorist" I've become, gradually,and again, reluctantly, over the years, it's just that the number of suspicious deaths of people that were very convenient for the right wing to have out of the way ( and of course witnesses too; either dying or being ignored) is just too many to be plausibly explained as all accidental ( Wellstone, Connell etc) or "lone wolves". In any individual case, I freely admit; the official explanation may very well be true, but when you add the volume of them up , and start looking at the holes in the official explanations, it just starts all looking awfully fishy.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. interesting that 2 routes were changed..and 2 assassinations
happened....coincidence...I don't think so...
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Evidence? And, hint: Defining a dubious claim as "interesting" doesn't constitute "proof"...
:shrug:
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
29. K & R!
n/t
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
73. The LAPD were no better in RFK murder than Dallas Police were five years earlier
Here's a good post from a couple years ago by Va Lefty...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
I remember reading somewhere that future LAPD Chief Daryl Gates was one of the investigating detectives. I wouldn't believe anything that asshat said.


Some more Daryl Gates...

Daryl Gates, the Ruthless L.A. Police Chief Who Ran an International Spying Operation on the Side
When Daryl Gates ran the LAPD from 1978 to 1992 he also ran a worldwide political spying operation. And he lavished time on it, sometimes several hours a day, including all the dossiers and reports he got on the lawful activities of L.A. leaders, elected and not, as well as political and religious groups he suspected were up to no good.

To doubters reading this I invite you to carefully read Gates' 1992 autobiography, Chief: My Life in the LAPD, in which he boasts about some of this.

On page 72 Gates tells about Lt. Carl Abbott, who spent years undercover posing as a communist, including time in Moscow.

On page 231, Gates recounts how he knew every time Lew Wasserman, the head of movie and record company MCA, got on an airplane to Las Vegas. He says when he told Wasserman about this the mogul was astonished and wanted to know why. Because, Gates explained, you're important...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu3t3QosGFI

http://www.ctka.net/turner-christian.html

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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. "I remember reading somewhere" - LOL! That's about the extent of CT'er "proof" of about anything.
Not a single thing in this reply "proves" a thing when it comes to the assassination of Senator Kennedy. And it is still irrefutable, this plain fact:

Sirhan Sirhan, acting alone, assassinated Robert Kennedy, and there is not a scintilla of credible evidence to the contrary.

By the bye, even if Gates were as terrible a person as you claim during his tenure with the LAPD (and I don't know and don't care), you have posted nothing that would have any bearing on the investigation of the RFK's murder by Sirhan Sirhan as a result of it. Nada, zip.

Nice association fallacy, though: the CT'er "community" is a textbook study in the number of logical fallacies that can be found in about any given paragraph of prose. Someone ought to get a grant, and do a study of that ubiquitous phenomenon....
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. I remember reading somewhere - "LAPD did a thorough and quite professional investigation"
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. And, of course, they did - as every bit of subsequent circumstantial analysis of the case has shown.
" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: "

Yours is a singular wit, to coin a phrase.

When you have some serious facts to dispute and posts to make regarding this subject - something other than logical fallacies and ample, repetitive proof that you have mastered the intricacies of using the Smilies lookup table - please get back to me. Thanks. :thumbsup:
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blavatsky3 Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
77. Checkout Operation 40 and other 9-11 related victims
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
79. Another story Ted Kennedy was too stupid or apathetic to figure out? /nt
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. EMK was "in on it"....
you should know that by now, JB.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Pretty much the whole family must be

I like to think my own brother and my own son might be curious to know who killed me.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. One would think....
excepting CT's, of course.
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. Who told you that the Kennedy family isn't?

nt
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Read "True Compass", EMK's memoir...
dude.
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. does it say the K. family isn't interested?

Where does it say that in the book, dude?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Why don't you show some evidence that they are...
dude?
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Dude - you didn't answer or address my question

Typical Duderism. All Faux facts and assertions which require miracles in order to be anything more than OCT fantasies.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Page 211 /nt
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Why don't they embrace any of the alternate theories?

Why did Ted Kennedy, in his posthumously published memoir, say that he had always believed the conclusion of the Warren Commission? Was he stupid, a coward even in death, or what?
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
88.  TK was a smart, savvy, cautious politician


"Why did Ted Kennedy, in his posthumously published memoir, say that he had always believed the conclusion of the Warren Commission?"
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. What did he have to lose when...
he knew he was dying?
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. G. Ford never confessed his role in the SBT lie

What did he have to lose? Now, he will always be known for his role in trying to deceive the world about the biggest
"inside job" ever. Until the 9/11 inside job.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. I didn't ask you about Ford...
dude. I asked you about EMK.

You seem to be floundering here.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. WTF?
Stupid strawman. Intentionally mischaracterizing what I actually said makes you look silly, dude.

I asked you about EMK. Exactly what assertion do I seem "unable to support", dude?
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Ford never found it convenient to apologize for his role ...
in the lie aka SBT. Dude, you seem intent in showing off your lack of knowledge about the conspiracy to murder JFK.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. You keep trying to shift the argument to Ford. I asked you about EMK...
dude. Your diversion is falling flat on its face and is just one of many reasons why you're meeting with such derision in your short tenure here.

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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Ford never forgot how he made his "bones"...

did he, dude. Deal with it.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. This is pointless....
every "discussion" with you devolves into your handwaving about "miracles" and futile attempts by you to shift the topic.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #103
107. ablewon
has yet to make a single coherent point.
pretty amazing and possibly a new record.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #107
110. I love how the CT-types come in here....
determined to prove us all wrong, yet rebunking the same, old tired CT bullshit.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #92
124. About Gerald Ford...

according to his biographer, he actually did confess that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK while on his deathbed. Like E. Howard Hunt, he was a true blue Republican up to the very end, trying to blame LBJ instead of the more obvious Nixon. Unfortunately, this report seems to have gotten removed from the MSM fairly quickly, even the internet has gotten scrubbed of this particular story, leaving only this:

http://crimemagazine.com/former-president-ford-admits-c...

Ford family spokeswoman Penny Circle confirms that the ex-president approved the foreword and even autographed 3,000 copies of the new booka joint venture between Ford and the book's publisher, Tim Miller of Nashville. Circle says she acted as an intermediary between the two men, who never met.

Ford's charge of a CIA cover-up is accompanied by a new concession by Fordthat there "conceivably" could have been a conspiracy to kill JFK, but that "no verified evidence to date shows a link to, or any direct involvement by any government agency, federal employees or subversive groups."

Now there's a very carefully worded statement for you. Particularly the use of "verified," "to date" and "direct." The former president also conveniently leaves out Mafia leaders, the chief suspects of House assassination investigators who, in the mid-1970s, found a "probable conspiracy."
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. "About Gerald Ford..."
:rofl:
oops, they must have missed that one when they were scrubbing the internet, eh?
thank you sincerely for the laugh.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. Laugh all you want, the evidence of a CIA coverup is mounting...
Edited on Sun Jun-12-11 04:53 PM by AntiFascist
even your hero Vincent Bugliosi wants the CIA to open its records.

See Tim Miller's interview on Fox News here:

http://flatsigned.com/MultiM2.html

Can you argue against Gerald Ford's own words?!
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. Bugliosi is not my hero
Edited on Sun Jun-12-11 05:49 PM by zappaman
just an author who, over 1600 pages, writes a compelling argument that Oswald acted alone.

Can I argue against Gerald Ford's own words?
Maybe if I knew what they were.
Please show me his words regarding his thoughts on the JFK assassination.
He maintained until his death that Oswald acted alone.
So show me something contradictory.
And some sleazy publisher who claims Ford told him there was a conspiracy is hardly "Ford's own words."

ETA:
http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/03/ford_memoir...

Miller said Circle called him recently to complain about how he was promoting the book. A Dec. 20 press release issued for his company misquoted him, he claimed, when it said, "Miller says Ford conceded that Oswald did not act alone."

"That's a combination of my words, not Ford's words," Miller said, but he added: "I believe Oswald did not act alone."

Tampa publicist Glenn Selig said he wrote the press release, based on information provided by Miller. "I think Tim explained that was his interpretation of what Ford said," Selig said. "I would go with whatever Tim explained to you."


I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. You're totally ignoring the main point...

that Ford claimed there was a CIA coverup. This was quoted in the forward to his only authorized biography, which he personally autographed 3,000 copies! If Miller is a sleazy author, then that can only reflect on the character of Ford himself who authorized him to write the biography. Ford was all about protecting Nixon. I believe the original statement by Miller, which has since gotten scrubbed, was that Ford blamed LBJ for the assassination plot.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. not ignoring the main point at all.
According to the publisher, those words were never said by Ford.
Did you not read my link?
And claiming things were said, but then scrubbed so you can't point to them is ridiculous.
Try again.
This time, use Ford's quote.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. I don't have the book so I'll quote Fulsom...

"In the new book, Ford said the commission's probe put "certain classified and potentially damaging operations in danger of being exposed." The CIA's reaction, he added, "was to hide or destroy some information, which can easily be misinterpreted as collusion in JFK's assassination.""

There was also a press release by Miller before the book was released:

"There was a conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy," says Tim Miller, CEO of FlatSigned.com, in the release. "There is no doubt that President Gerald Ford knew more about the JFK death.

Here's my first post on the subject from 2008, so at least I'm consistent:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Here's the latest press release from Tim Miller in 2009. Apparently the Ford family is threatening to sue Miller, which may be why there was no longer any mention of things told to him in private by Ford.

http://flatsigned.com/NEW_JFK_CONFLICT.html
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. so you take this publisher's word for it
you believe Ford told this guy the CIA was behind the assassination of JFK.
Ok, that clears that up then.
funny how no one else is taking this guy's word for it.
funny how Ford consistently maintained until his death that the evidence showed Oswald acted alone.
funny how his family says he never said anything different than the above.
but he privately told this publisher.
:rofl:
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. Again, you're clearly missing the point...

Ford confessed, even publically, that the CIA covered up and hid information, which introduces serious questions about the validity of both the Warren Commission findings and the HSCA investigations. Nobody said the "CIA was behind the assassination" in fact I've never argued that viewpoint myself. The conclusions being drawn by many researchers, however, is that Oswald was connected to certain anti-Castro operations involving factions of the CIA, mafia, and anti-Castro groups. The issue is not that "the CIA <as a group> was behind the assassination", the issue is whether the CIA is hiding evidence of a conspiracy that may have involved rogue elements.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. your link
says:

In the new book, Ford said the commission's probe put "certain classified and potentially damaging operations in danger of being exposed." The CIA's reaction, he added, "was to hide or destroy some information, which can easily be misinterpreted as collusion in JFK's assassination."

catch that last part?

key word: "misinterpreted".

just like you and other researchers are doing.

too bad "they" have scrubbed the internet clean of Ford's words...
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-13-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. My first post on this thread was about what the biographer said...
not what Ford said publically, my post starts out "according to his biographer..." Sorry if that was inaccurate as this book is really considered an autobiography and Miller was just the publisher. According to his his last press release "During Mr. Millers press conference, he shared revealing information from the book, from his personal conversations with the late President Ford as well as the important information that Ford demanded be cut from the unpublished manuscript immediately prior to going to print."

As far as Ford's own public statements, it is shocking enough that he admits that the CIA did what they did. It's not surprising that he won't confess publically all that he knows, even while on his deathbed. He probably knew that he was pushing the envelope as it was. Even while on his deathbed, I'm certain that he wanted to ensure that his family didn't suffer too much in the aftermath.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #92
125. duplicate removed
Edited on Sun Jun-12-11 04:39 PM by AntiFascist
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #90
118. He loved his family, like Ronald Reagan did
Reagan knew the Shadow Government and Bush were involved in his 1981 shooting, but loved Nancy too much to risk opening his mouth. Same with Ted Kennedy, I suspect.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. really?
and you know this...how?
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. There's no other explanation
Unless you believe Ted and Reagan were programmed, and I don't. It takes a perfect candidate to do that.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #90
123. There are probably still national security concerns...

the CIA purposely kept hidden information about the CIA-mafia plots to kill Castro. Senator Hart, and later G. Robert Blakey, learned that Oswald may have been involved with these programs. Questioning the validity of the Warren Commission would open up this can of worms. Since the Castro family has remained in power in Cuba for so long, this is probably still considered sensitive information, at least so far as the government publically acknowledging it.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. So you are going with "coward and liar"
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 12:30 PM by jberryhill

And what about RFK Jr.? He is quite vocal and active on a number of issues. He's just being "savvy and cautious" on the subject of who killed his own father?
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. You said what I'm thinking...about

Bush and OCTers who believe in goofy conspiracies that could only be true if lots of miracles happened.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Name one of these "miracles", dude...
and you might want to think.twice about trying to tie any of us to Bush. Your smears aren't working, dude.
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. SBT
"Name one of these "miracles", dude..."

Dude - Cite evidence for your assertion that I've tried "to tie any of us to Bush. Your smears aren't working, dude."

AFAIK, the only person/people that I know of that you are associated with is people who support the goofy OCT.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Post # 94, dude.
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 02:11 PM by SDuderstadt
Now, what specifically about the SBT requires a "miracle"? Better yet, explain how the bullet could have hit Connally WITHOUT first going through JFK. That's the fatal flaw in your "argument".
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. Study the case.

Your only knowledge of it seems to be talking points from the serial factoid fabricator, McAdams. Dude, relying on him is
no better than relying on Posner or The Bug.
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zappaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. "biblical miracles"?
what "biblical miracles" do you believe in?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. Dude...
how would you have the slightest idea where I get my information from? Unless, of course, you were here previously under a different name.
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. Dude

"how would you have the slightest idea where I get my information from?"

Let me guess. Strange, exotic women, Jeff Rense, J. McAdams, JREF, Popular Mechanics, various low-information, alcoholic drifters from the badlands, other similarly inclined OCTers et al. -- who else? Bugliosi (excerpts), PNAC? Various Official Conspiracy Theories reports (NIST, WC etc.). You don't read anything that's objective and non-biased, do you? If so, list some of them.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Dude...
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 07:12 PM by SDuderstadt
have you even read the NIST report or not? Do you honestly claim Griffin is unbiased? Based upon what?

BTW, I'd appreciate if you drop the inference that I get any information from PNAC, dude. I'll match my liberal credentials against yours any day.

While you're at it, look up "genetic fallacy" at any critical thinking website. You've committed it about ten times now.
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ablewon Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Dude - Belief in goofy 9/11 miracles-based conspiracy...
is incompatible with a liberal, progressive, reality-based politics. That's why so many OCTers here come across like typical
Downing Effect sufferers.


Read what this CIA guy has to say about the Official 9/11 fraud.

"That the 9/11 Truth Movement, by contrast, cannot be rationally considered a distraction from more important matters was persuasively expressed in August 2006 by former CIA official Bill Christison, who by the end of his 28-year career had risen to the position of Director of the CIAs Office of Regional and Political Analysis (and who, sadly, died while this essay was being written178). In an article entitled Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11, Christison wrote:



After spending the better part of the last five years treating these theories with utmost skepticism, I have devoted serious time to actually studying them have come to believe that significant parts of the 9/11 theories are true, and that therefore significant parts of the official story put out by the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are false.179



Then, after listing nine judgments that had led him to this conclusion one of which was that the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them - he added:



If judgments . . . are correct, they . . . strongly suggest that some unnamed persons or groups either inside or with ties to the government were actively creating a Pearl Harbor event, most likely to gain public support for the aggressive foreign policies that followed policies that would, first, transform the entire Middle East, and second, expand U.S. global domination.



Then, explaining why the evidence for this conclusion cannot reasonably be dismissed as a distraction from more important matters, he wrote:



A manageable volume of carefully collected and analyzed evidence is already at hand . . . that elements within the Bush administration, as well as possibly other groups foreign or domestic, were involved in a massive fraud against the American people, a fraud that has led to many thousands of deaths. This charge of fraud, if proven, involves a much greater crime against the American people and people of the world than any other charges of fraud connected to the run-up to the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. It is a charge that we should not sweep under the rug because what is happening in Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Syria, and Iran seems more pressing and overwhelming. It is a charge that is more important because it is related to all of the areas just mentioned after all, the events of 9/11 have been used by the administration to justify every single aspect of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East since September 11. It is a charge that is more important also because it affects the very core of our entire political system. If proven, it is a conspiracy, so far successful, not only against the people of the United States, but against the entire world.



In this passage, Christison expressed this charge of fraud conditionally, saying if proven. He later made clear, however, that he had personally found the evidence convincing, referring to the 9/11 attacks as an inside job.

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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #95
108. So it's some kind of miracle the Kennedys never embraced JFK or RFK CT's?
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