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Vince Bugliosi Destroyed Yet Again Part 9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-01-10 02:46 AM
Original message
Vince Bugliosi Destroyed Yet Again Part 9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_9_review.html

Feel free to leave a comment ot two. This is the second to last piece of Joms epic slamming. Enjoy.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-01-10 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. I couldn't find anything in that article disputing the evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald.
Perhaps you could point it out?
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tetedur Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-01-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. This is Part 9 of a series. You could start at the beginning....
http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html
See Part 1 "Questioning the Prosecutor's Case"
For a discussion of Oswald's ownership of the rifle in evidence, CE 399, CE 543, the acquisition of ammunition, Neutron Activation Analysis, the Gen. Edwin Walker incident, backyard photos and the Paines as witnesses.

http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_2_review.html
See Part 2 "What's Missing? Oswald's Defense"
for discussions of the paraffin test, Oswald's shooting skills, witnesses to Oswald's whereabouts at the time of the shooting, DPD line-ups, Oswald's 3 wallets, fingerprints on Tippit's car, Oswald's CAP association with Ferrie and his defection to Russia.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Honestly bud where do they come from lol?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. misplaced --
Edited on Mon Feb-08-10 01:36 AM by defendandprotect
IMO, 2,646 pages, also tries to suggest to those who come looking for info that

that the coup on JFK is something really complex -- it's not, of course.

And that's why the cover-up is so riddled with violence and death!

Granted, there is no such thing as a perfect crime -- but this is another lalapalooza
by the right wing.

Dulles/McCloy/Ford/Angleton! -- notorious

What ford did in changing the "back" wound to a "neck" wound wasn't "irresponsible --

it was TREASON.

Follow the money and follow the violence and intimidation --

Throat wound - Malcolm Perry

Kenneth O'Donnell -- "shots from front"
Dave Powers -- testimony altered in document prepared by Arlen Specter

Like many others, Jean Hill also said her testimony/words were altered.

Hill's interview by Arlen Specter ended with this threat --

"Look, we can even make you look as crazy as Marguerite Oswald and everybody knows how crazy

she is."


According to Sylvia Odio, Wesley Liebeler said to Oswald's lawyer in her presence ...

"Well, you know if we do find out that this is a conspiracy you know we have order from

Chief Justice Warren to cover this thing up."


Liebeler: "Sometimes we get caught up in things that are bigger than we are" --


Don't think I had heard about Geraldine Reid who was actually with Oswald at the time of

the murder, as the shots were fired -- as told to Robert Groden.

CBS collusion --

Dulles ---> Gordon Novel ---> Garrison bugged

Warren later says he is "ashamed" of the whitewash forced on him by LBJ --

Hadn't heard that before!

Overall: "Any conspiracy angle would be a distraction to the running of government" --!!

And, isn't fascism a bit of a distraction later on???

And, quite humorous that Bugliosi wants to use the 1950's "the Commies made them do it"

re Americans who first began to challenge the official myth of the Warren Commission!

"Militant tinfoil believers"--!!

Bugliosi ignores that 3 Commission members -- Russell, Boggs, Cooper thought there was a

conspiracy!


PLUS many others, including LBJ, Nixon, RFK, Jackie K, Al Gore, Hoover, Schweiker,

Gary Hart, George Burkley, Mayor Dayley --on and on --


"Show the world that America is not a banana repubic where a government can be
changed by conspiracy." And, in covering up the conspiracy, turn America into a banana republic!



Basically I resent that anyone has to spend their time restudying Bugliosi's garbage --

but bless the researchers who patiently respond!


I will look at the other parts of the rebuttal --



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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Hey my mate who did the posts on Alex Jones
He did two of the transcripts and organised/edited the others for Jim and Len Osanic.

These are the transcripts of the McAdams debate he had you may wanna check those out as well mate.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Back later to try to read some more --
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Mr Goodfella Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. "We are not a Banana Republic!"
The irony of this statement is so painful. What is a "Banana Republic" and how does it come into existence?

In 1954, John Foster Dulles used the CIA, run by his brother, to overthrow the democratically elected Arbenz government because Arbenz wanted land reform. The peasants were landless because United Fruit essentially stole the land by making deals with previous gov't officials.

After the CIA gets rid of the democratic government, it is replaced with a brutal military dictatorship that massacres 200,000+ Guatemalans in the following decades.

The "Banana Republic" is an illegitimate state created by morally corrupt people in the U.S. soley for the the benefit of rich business interests and and a tiny indigenous oligarchy.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-12 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
41. YES, obviously, start with Part 1. An epic piece...
that presents a detailed and compelling picture of the 1963 coup d'etat, along with its demolition of Bugliosi et al.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Hmmmmm
Thank you my fellow poster for sorting out the last person here with some good solid Jim DiEuenio Stuff.

You have to wonder about the sincerity of people who have

"Corporations now have a fiduciary duty to subvert the American electoral process."

And then decries a conspiracy in direct violation of the judicial process. Im sorry but they just don't get it.



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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. So, if DiEugenio's case is so good...
Edited on Sun Feb-07-10 09:38 AM by SDuderstadt
how come 46 years later, have you guys failed to bust the case open? Have you read "True Compass" by the late EMK where he says he accepts the Warren Commission Report? If you guys are on the right track, wouldn't the Kennedy family be openly supporting you? Don't any of them get it?

Where's your evidence? Did the WC fake all of their's? Has all the evidence that would prove your case been "suppressed"?

Jesus, there's nothing more boring than a true believer...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. You might want to actually read the forum rules before...
shooting your mouth off further, dude.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Did I get sorted by the last post?
My goodness.

Well, the evidence in those two links are thus far underwhelming. After the writer gets through crying about long books and small fonts (which seems to take forever - in small font, no less!), he or she finally gets around to the rifle evidence. The only citation for Bugliosi about the misidentification of the rifle as a Mauser is page 150, but the RH index also cites page 55 of the notes, where Bugliosi speaks more about the misidentification issue, pointing out:

Although conspiracy theorists continue to yap that the rifle found on the sixth floor was not a 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano, but some other weapon, such as a 7.65-millimeter Mauser (which one of the officers who discovered it thought it was), there can be no question the rifle was a 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano. All of the evidence, including photographic and eyewitness, proves this. Indeed, photographer Tom Alyea of WFAA-TV in Dallas was on the sixth floor at the time and filmed the recovery of the rifle. Two of the frames from his film, one in particular, clearly show the rifle was a 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano.


So the only rifle actually recovered at the scene was the Mannlicher-Carcano. Anyone saying it was a Mauser was wrong. There was no Mauser recovered at the scene.

Yawn.
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tetedur Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. For those interested
this is what Jim DiEugenio has to say about first rifle identification in Part one:

The centerpiece of Bugliosi's case against the dead Oswald is his alleged ownership of the rifle in evidence. And in fact, Bugliosi actually uses the dead man's denials of this ownership as evidence against him. (p. 965) Bugliosi discards the denials and devotes two chapters in Book One convicting Oswald based on the rifle evidence.

One problem with claiming that this rifle was the rifle found at the so-called sniper's nest is that it was not the first weapon reported by the authorities. As any student of the case knows, the first reports were of a 7.65 German Mauser, not the 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano. The press, DA Henry Wade, and the police made these reports all in the space of the first 24 hours. (Meagher, pgs. 95-100) In fact, on 11/23 Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman executed an affidavit in which he said that he and Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone discovered the Mauser on their search of the sixth floor of the book depository. The description in the affidavit is quite specific. Further, Boone later testified to the Warren Commission that Captain Fritz and Lt. Day also identified it as a Mauser. In fact, Boone filed two reports on the day of the assassination saying the rifle he found was a Mauser (Warren Commission, Decker Exhibit 5323). What makes this testimony so startling is that one does not have to be familiar with rifles to see that there is a serious problem here. Because on the rifle in evidence it is clearly stamped, "Made in Italy" and "Cal, 6.5". How could anyone say the rifle was a Mauser if it was made in Italy? The Warren Commission assigned this troublesome episode to the Speculations and Rumors section of the Warren Report and said it was all a mistake. (p. 645) Bugliosi agrees. (Reclaiming History p. 190)


So some people should be able to verify that there is evidence of the Mauser in the form of reports and affidavits entered into the Warren Commission Volumes. For others, it is impossible to admit this and it is a waste of time to argue. My only purpose in posting is to clarify what DiEugenio said.


If the font is too small, use the "control+" combination (if you use Mozilla) to enlarge the web page.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The reporter from WFAA filmed the discovery of the rifle. It wasn't a Mauser.
Edited on Sun Feb-07-10 01:00 PM by Bolo Boffin
Reports to the contrary are mistaken and wrong. The actual rifle was a Mannlicher-Carcano.

Are you really chiding me for mentioning the small font? :rofl:

ETA: So your argument is based on the infallibility of the Dallas Police? Really?
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tetedur Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Your first criticism of DiEugenio's essays
concerned the size of the font on the web page which can be made larger by the reader. Sorry for trying to help you out.

In case anyone missed my point Bugliosi's statement:
"All of the evidence, including photographic and eyewitness, proves this." simply ignores the reports and affidavits.

DiEugenio's question remains:
What makes this testimony so startling is that one does not have to be familiar with rifles to see that there is a serious problem here. Because on the rifle in evidence it is clearly stamped, "Made in Italy" and "Cal, 6.5". How could anyone say the rifle was a Mauser if it was made in Italy?





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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Because they didn't see it that closely and...
misindentified it. Duh. JFK Assassination Conspiracy Theory buffs are always making mountains out of molehills.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Enjoy your short stay here...
Edited on Sun Feb-07-10 04:06 PM by SDuderstadt
I really mean that.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. "How could anyone say the rifle was a Mauser if it was made in Italy?"
The Dallas Police are not infallible. I'm surprised I have to explain this to you.

People get things wrong all the time. The discovery of the rifle was video-taped. It was a Mannlicher-Carcano later determined to have been purchased by and brought to the book depository by Lee Harvey Oswald. People who said that the rifle was a Mauser either made a mistake or were passing on bad information. Reports of the weapon being a Mauser are not evidence against the actual rifle discovered being an actual Mannlicher-Carcano.

You do understand that the first essay you pointed me to complained about the small type of Bugliosi's book, don't you? Don't you understand that I'm chuckling that the writer of the essay is complaining about Bugliosi's small type in small type?
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tetedur Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Note the straw man implication
that I said the DPD was infallible. The patronizing attitude adopted by one who couldn't find "anything disputing the evidence against" LHO in a nine part series of essays and who thinks that everyone will see small fonts displayed on the CTKA website is a curious reversal of positions.

I thought those who accept as true the lone gun man theory believe the DPD were such infallible law men that they had in custody the one and only perpetrator of the murders of the President and the police officer by 2:00 that afternoon. I surprises me to learn "the DPD were not infallible" is your position. Is the early misidentification of the rifle found on the 6th floor their only error?

Some think repetition is the way win arguments. That's how we used to argue on the playground. Sooner or later one side would tire of the futility or back down from the bully and then the other could claim victory. In the adult world, that doesn't get us any closer to the truth and who has time for "I know you are but what am I?"

I found Jim DiEugenio's essays on the Bugliosi book a valuable resource, one that brings me closer to the truth, closer to understanding the assassination of JFK and those who would send us in the wrong direction.

If one is interested in the importance of the identification of the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser and would like to read more or how a defense attorney may have used it as evidence in a trial of LHO pick up Rush to Judgment by Mark Lane and read Chapter 8.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. That's not a straw man, that's mockery of your position.
Thank you for stating the source of your position about the ID of the rifle as a Mauser: Chapter 8 of Lane's Rush to Judgment. That led me in Bugliosi's book to pp. 791-792, where Bugliosi deals specifically with the Mauser ID found in Chapter 8 of Lane's Rush to Judgment. Consult Monty Lutz' presentation for the HSCA showing the basic similarities between the Mauser and four other European rifles. There is no reason to think that anyone making the statement about the rifle being a Mauser had examined the rifle in any great detail. And one of the sources for this mistake, Weitzman, said in 1967 that he had "no doubt" the rifle they found was a Mannlicher-Carcano.

"...It was strictly a mistaken identity which anybody could make. If you know anything about guns, a Mauser is a Mauser. What make it is, what country it was made in, can easily be misidentified because mostly your Mauser mechanism looks very similar." Weitzman went on to say that the Carcano "was a Mauser-action rifle" and really was "an Italian Mauser."


A defense attorney would have been a fool to use this argument in a trial of LHO. The prosecuting attorneys would have admitted the videotape of the discovery of the rifle into evidence, along with the testimony of the people being cited by the defense stating they simply made a mistake by calling it a Mauser. Grasping at straws is not in the best interest of a defense attorney.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. I have been away but glad to be back.
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 08:54 PM by CTKA-Probe
Now, in an older post I made the point about the silliness of getting caught up in this debate.

Either there was a Mauser or there was not one.

It makes no big difference to the case either way. So why get a hard on for it?

Evidence indicates there could have well have been one. But hell as I have said if by some small chance there was not a Mauser I am hardly going to weep into my beer. The Dallas policed proved so inept that day in and around the crime scene the question of the Mauser is almost a sideshow because of their dopey mishandling of it. It's conveniently forgotten by non Mauser advocates that their Keystone Cop like antics around the issue seriously affects the credibility of anything else pertaining to be Oswald's they encountered.

Thus trying (unsuccessfully) to stitch Mark Lane on the issue using Bugliosi detracts from numerous points.

So let's have a look at Monty Lutz first up.

MONTY LUTZ:

So what he gave a pretty picture show about similar looking European rifles. That neither proves nor disproves the argument nor does it take away from the rather stark facts that the cops utterly screwed up the identity of the murder weapon if not a Mauser.

Furthermore according to Mike Griffiths, during the 1986 mock Oswald trial sponsored by a British television company (yes the very trial that Bugliosi himself questioned Lutz) that to his (Lutz) knowledge no one had ever duplicated Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Now the problem is here that to my knowledge no one has ever replicated Dealey Plaza precisely as it was that day in terms of shooting at moving targets, wind and so on. And if you really think Gary Mack and others have given it a fair shake well you’re not going to like these links.

Reviews of Macks 'Inside the Target Car'.

http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd.html

Here's a review of other previous attempts by John Kelin.

http://www.ctka.net/2009/pigs.html

Happy reading.

WEITZMAN THE INTERNATIONAL MAUSER POET:

Mauser's were indeed made in many different countries. So what?

"It was strictly a mistaken identity which anybody could make. If you know anything about guns, a Mauser is a Mauser. What make it is, what country it was made in, can easily be misidentified because mostly your Mauser mechanism looks very similar."

Note within the sentence thus far he is talking about Mausers. Not Carcano's. But MAUSERS being hard to differentiate from which country they come from.

The next line is hilarious remember this guy was considered something of an arms specialist.

"Weitzman went on to say that the Carcano "was a Mauser-action rifle" and really was "an Italian Mauser."

Guns of this type are not called 'Mauser Action' weapons they are called 'Bolt-Action'. Lol, I mean we have Roger Craig saying it was a German Mauser, someone saying its Argentinean (I'll reveal who in a little bit) and now we have a cop calling it Italian. Of course he maybe trying to say that the Carcano is the equivalent of the Mauser but that's BS. The 7.65 Mauser is widely regarded by gun enthusiasts around the world as one of the best and most accurate rifles ever made. The Carcano though not quite as bad as it’s been hyped is not a patch on a Mauser nor its rival in any department just ask any Military Historian. You may note that the Mannlicher Carcano is nowhere near considered to be in the Top Ten and this is a show from the infamous Discovery Channel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HdZ6WLrEnA&NR=1

I've gotta say so what the cops had all changed their tune by around 67. After seeing what happened to Craig wouldn't you wanna shut up? Oh yes for sure you will go after Craig. But regardless he was clearly there in the Depository and a photograph shows Craig in the vicinity of Fritz's homicide office. But as we shall see Will 'Barney Fife' Fritz has a starring role in the 'Magical Mauser' caper that any character assassination attempt on Craig will not shield this time round.

WERE THE DPD REALLY THAT STOOPID?:

It wasn't just a brief look or a quick glance that the DPD had. So you can dispose of that myth after reading this.

Richard Bartholomew "Telling Truth From Disinformation" writes.

"First, at days end, 12 full hours into the investigation, the Carcano was still being officially identified to the press as a Mauser at a press conference by Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade, who swore he got his information only from the police. All day long, when asked by the press, "...the police reported....a Mauser 7.65 rather than a Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5..." (Warren Report, p. 235). The weapon was not correctly identified to the public until 24 hours after the assassination when Police Chief Jesse Curry angered Wade and FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover by publicizing the FBI's lab report giving the gun's correct identity. Wade and Hoover evidently preferred that the public know only the official, false, Mauser identification (see Graf/Bartholomew article).

Second, Mausers are not clip fed. No competent police identification expert in the world could honestly mistake a clip-fed rifle for a non-clip-fed rifle for 24 hours. And at the time of the assassination, 50-year-old Lieutenant John Carl Day, a 23-year police veteran, had been head of the Dallas identification bureau for seven years. The implications of these facts are thoroughly analyzed by Mr. Graf and me in our article on the gun. You be the judge of whose thinking is more prosaic, ours or Camper's."

The full work of 'The Gun That Didn't Smoke' by Graf and Bartholomew can be seen here.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v1n2/gtds.html

As can this Gem in which the supposedly incorrect Lane puts another nail in the "We only had a quick glance category'

"Posner ignores the earlier Enfield .303 identification altogether. He dismisses the Mauser identification by saying, "Firearms experts say they are easy to confuse without a proper exam (HSCA Vol. I, pp. 446-47; HSCA Vol. VII, p. 372.)" Posner gives no explanation for why, after a proper exam was made early that Friday afternoon by Lieutenant Day, the Mauser description continued uncorrected by the Dallas Police Department both internally to Police Chief Curry and public relations officer Captain Glen D. King, and externally to District Attorney Henry Wade and the press. He then ridicules Mark Lane for "trying to portray a simple mistake as evidence of conspiracy (Rush to Judgment, pp. 95-101)."

A simple mistake is it? Posner came a cropper on this and so has Bugliosi. Misidentification's of murder weapons in particularly by law enforcement officials are usually enough to acquit any suspect charged/or give powerful ammunition to the defence (pun wholly intended).

The rest of the above article is at this link.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/19th_Is...

So let’s continue with the 3rd rate DPD angle (that unless I am horribly mistaken would have been pumped by any attorney).

Matthew Smith, JFK: The Second Plot.

"Those concerned with the finding of the rifle at the Book Depository and who had written affidavits, Boone and Weitzman, were pressed, under questioning by the Commission, to review their identification of it. The Mannlicher-Carcano, at first glance, looked very much like 7.65 Mauser, it is true. How would they account, though, for a situation in which they had been close enough to describe the colour of the sling and yet had made an error in identifying the rifle itself? After all, the Mannlicher-Carcano bears the legend 'Made in Italy' on the butt, whereas the German gun has the name 'Mauser' stamped on the barrel! Were these officers unable to read? In spite of any argument which might be brought to bear, they both, nonetheless, changed their testimony and conceded they had made a mistake."

This can be seen here. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKweitzman.htm

Now, blindness and illiteracy were certainly not a requisite to be in the police force the last time I looked. But hey this is the DPD circa 1963.

ADMITTING THE USE OF VIDEOTAPE TO INCRIMINATE OSWALD AND THE CARCANO. IS THAT REALLY A GOOD IDEA?

"A defence attorney would have been a fool to use this argument in a trial of LHO. The prosecuting attorneys would have admitted the videotape of the discovery of the rifle into evidence, along with the testimony of the people being cited by the defence stating they simply made a mistake by calling it a Mauser. Grasping at straws is not in the best interest of a defence attorney."

Okay firstly there were no video tapes back in the 1963 it was film reel. Thus you have some technical issues you may want to re-configure.

In the Alyea footage seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WQr4y1j4Gw we can clearly see two rifles in the link. Now for sure, I can understand that some cops had rifles on them in the depository but from what I have seen there’s no testimony what so ever about police officers dropping weapons searching for evidence in the area and what kind of cop would ever put (more like dump) a rifle (barrel side down) on the floor, and then leave it in full view of the 'supposedly discovered' murder weapon. Bright idea that one. Not only are you contaminating and confusing the crime scene but you've been caught doing it on film. Either that or there is another weapon that had been planted there. A Mauser maybe?

Thus I do not think that the prosecution would wanna use any evidence taken that day in the depository. Why? Well because as you will soon see with Alyea (the fellow who filmed the comings and goings) he states that the cops literally recreated the snipers perch for the cameras and covered up Fritzes amateurish handling of the shell casings and the rifle. Fritz according to Boone's testimony also considered the rifle a Mauser (Boone WC Vol III, Pg 295).

Thus you can read Alyeas comments here and then get a hint of how Reitzes and Myers react to stuff they disagree with.

http://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html

As we can clearly see Reitzes is not satisfied with his results in getting Alyea to refute his comments and he then gets Dale Myers to try and discredit him by using one of Alyeas original statements. But this only succeeds in linking Alyea more closely to the 'Mauser' leak.

"The gun was found across the length of the room from where he fired. It was stashed between boxes. I had difficulty in filming. They did not want me close to the window or to the gun. I asked permission to go to the window to film. A Secret Service man said, 'You are close enough.' I asked the Secret Service man to take pictures of the stashed gun. I set the camera but he wiggled the camera. I got a picture of them taking the gun from the hiding place and dusting it for fingerprints. After this the Crime Lab man, Captain Will Fritz - and I have footage of this - pulled the bolt back and a live round came out. They dusted the gun for fingerprints. This was my third camera. They wouldn't let me out of the building and they wouldn't let anyone else in. I never saw my film on the air because I had to get the film to someone outside. This was the first film from there. We had Mal Couch's film of the crowd but not of the President being hit. There's a story for you. I actually handed it out through the door but it had been publicized over the air and established everywhere that I had thrown it out of the building through a window. I hesitate to tell you the real story. I started to throw it out of the building but being so close and knowing that we had the other film, I wanted our station to be the first to show a film of the assassination. A A.J. L'Hoste was under the window. I yelled out to him. In actuality I tossed the film out the front door to Ron Reiland who had gotten back from covering the apprehension of Oswald at the Texas Theatre. This was another ABC exclusive. There were 2 policemen at the Depository door. They were not sure that I should get things outside. Ron was outside and I was inside. One of the policemen there called a Lieutenant and while they were calling him, I threw the film out....."

Reiland is a rather fascinating case. Jim DiEugenio in his review of 'JFK the Lost Tapes' commented on footage of WFAA cameraman Ron Reiland being interviewed.

"Reiland tells the audience that the weapon discovered at the Depository was an Argentine Mauser."

Now admittedly Alyea has not said much here about the weapon type but the word from the Cops may well have been picked up by Alyea and then passed onto Reiland a little later. So good one Dale! The prosecution are gonna love you for this. You've probably named the first police/press leak of the afternoon. The problem for Dale 'Selective Amnesia' Myers is that he hates to admit fault with his beloved DPD. Even the Warren Commission Report in Chapter V entitled 'Detention and Death of Oswald' couldn't ignore the problems and expressed great concern (44 pages of it to be precise) about the two bodies violations of Oswald's civil liberties (WCR pgs 196-240).

Thus let us now take a good look at Lieutenant Day and the media and then have another look at how it likely came out to the press (which is after all where most of the hype surrounding it has come from). This is once again from Graff and Bartholomew who quote directly from George Michael Evica.

"Lieutenant Day was credited by the Warren Commission with identifying the rifle in his possession as an Italian 6.5 mm. weapon. The Commission, however, supplied neither evidence nor documentation for its statement. Those references it did give to `document' the alleged Day identification were irrelevant to the Commission's assertion. And Day himself seemed to deny the Commission's statement: `I didn't describe the rifle to anyone other than police officers.' One of those `police officers' seems to have been public relations officer Captain Glen D. King, but if Day did describe the weapon he examined to King, and King (doing his job) passed that description on to the working press the afternoon and evening of the 22nd, either Day described the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser, or King thought Day described it as such, since that description prevailed." (Evica, A Certain Arrogance. Pg 24)

Conclusion: Barney 'Fritz' Fife and his pals actions both documented and filmed (not videoed) render the Mauser issue redundant. It could have been a popgun and these guys wouldn't have been able to identify it. So there goes that angle and there goes any reliability and credibility the DPD had in the case. Thus what of the Mauser itself? Well some of you out there reading this have a strong argument in suspecting that they played dumb on it too save their asses. But in doing so helped destroy their case.

Those really are some rosey options for the prosecution to contend with don't you think?

Like I have said I don't really care. Either way the DPD are screwed on the issue, and I didn't even bother mentioning the rumour of the British 303 in any great depth. This conversation bores me completely and utterly.

But I'll let you read Jim Di's demolition of Vince Bugliosi in 1-9 parts (10th coming soon) and then you can tell me how good and credible the prosecutions case would have been. This little piece for those of you new to the demolition of Bugliosi is just the beginning.

http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html





























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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Someone was taping the discovery of the weapon on the sixth floor. It was not a Mauser.
End of story.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Thomas Alyea filmed not 'taped' the Weapons in the Depository.
It was also Alyea who was mentioned in my earlier piece. He also landed Fritz and his crew right in it.
Why you had to post reminding me of what I had previously written is rather puzzling.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. So?
It's something that can be shown to the jury. It's probably looping at the Sixth Floor Museum. Arguing about videotaped or filmed when the footage clearly shows an Mannlicher-Carbino, not a Mauser, shows that you'd rather arguing silly details instead of the point, which is that the FREAKING GUN WASN'T A MAUSER AND PEOPLE WHO SAID IT WAS MADE A MISTAKE.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Lol. Oh me oh my. 'SO'
Did you see the rifle on the ground whats that all about lol. DID I EVER SAY THE RIFLE MOST VISIBLE WAS THE MAUSER. lol.
Oh please stop your hilarious. No you really are in fact no keep posting. I love it.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. More stupid "2 rifles" bullshit from the...
"assassination community".
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Deleted message
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. As I said before, dude...
enjoy your short stay here. I really mean that.
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Oh yeah really?
What your gonna try and call a fight then wimp out and then get the moderator to boot me?

All this when you get told a few pointers?

Hmmmmmm.

Im sorry. But, please go and start your own Lee Oswald did it forum.

It is clear from your posts you have nothing to contribute or logical to discuss.

Better yet why not go and win some friends by taking on someone who deserves a bollicking like John Hankey or Alex Jones.

The biggest problem I have is that you have confused researchers with CT's like Jones and so on. So please save yourself the embarrasment and take on those guys.

Dealing with CTKA in such a manner just makes you look silly immature and ill informed.





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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. Oh, I see...
it's really not legitimate to take issue with your CT bullshit? Really?

Your attempts at "psychic foreclosure" seem to be falling flat on their face, dude.

46 years. Are you guys close to cracking the case? What are you waiting for?
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Yawn again!!!!!!!!!!!!!DUDE
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hi ... just catching up with this -- thank you!
Just want to point to the fact that they still find it necessary to continue to

prop up and push the official myth/cover-up --

And I think Bugliosi's "Helter Skelter" is also to be questioned --

Recently, I came upon a Mae Brussel article on the "Manson Murders" and looks more

like they created Manson to spread fear and lies about the youth revolution/"Hippies"

which was doing such damage to authority/power structure in America. Brussel pegs it

the murdeers as a military-type operation.

Look at what they did at Kent State in killing youmg people in order to break up the anti-war

movement!

I've read at least one book by James DiEugenio -- can't remember which -- a long time ago.

I scanned this link and will try to catch up with the others soon --



:)
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yeah man cool.
No the book you may have read was Destiny Betrayed. His latest was with Lisa Pease called the Assassinations.

We have no real evidence of Manson and MK Ultra related stuff. However, you are right there are some scary tie in's and hell nothing surprises me to much nowadays. Brussel did some great stuff in her time, some of its a bit dated now of course, but she was pretty cool and was generally pretty onto it. Her compilation of Lee Harvey Oswalds comments over the last few hours of his life is good stuff.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. I did take a longer look at Part 9 --
IMO, 2,646 pages, also tries to suggest to those who come looking for info that

that the coup on JFK is something really complex -- it's not, of course.

And that's why the cover-up is so riddled with violence and death!

Granted, there is no such thing as a perfect crime -- but this is another lalapalooza
by the right wing.

Dulles/McCloy/Ford/Angleton! -- notorious

What ford did in changing the "back" wound to a "neck" wound wasn't "irresponsible --

it was TREASON.

Follow the money and follow the violence and intimidation --

Throat wound - Malcolm Perry

Kenneth O'Donnell -- "shots from front"
Dave Powers -- testimony altered in document prepared by Arlen Specter

Like many others, Jean Hill also said her testimony/words were altered.

Hill's interview by Arlen Specter ended with this threat --

"Look, we can even make you look as crazy as Marguerite Oswald and everybody knows how crazy

she is."


According to Sylvia Odio, Wesley Liebeler said to Oswald's lawyer in her presence ...

"Well, you know if we do find out that this is a conspiracy you know we have order from

Chief Justice Warren to cover this thing up."


Liebeler: "Sometimes we get caught up in things that are bigger than we are" --


Don't think I had heard about Geraldine Reid who was actually with Oswald at the time of

the murder, as the shots were fired -- as told to Robert Groden.

CBS collusion --

Dulles ---> Gordon Novel ---> Garrison bugged

Warren later says he is "ashamed" of the whitewash forced on him by LBJ --

Hadn't heard that before!

Overall: "Any conspiracy angle would be a distraction to the running of government" --!!

And, isn't fascism a bit of a distraction later on???

And, quite humorous that Bugliosi wants to use the 1950's "the Commies made them do it"

re Americans who first began to challenge the official myth of the Warren Commission!

"Militant tinfoil believers"--!!

Bugliosi ignores that 3 Commission members -- Russell, Boggs, Cooper thought there was a

conspiracy!


PLUS many others, including LBJ, Nixon, RFK, Jackie K, Al Gore, Hoover, Schweiker,

Gary Hart, George Burkley, Mayor Dayley --on and on --


"Show the world that America is not a banana repubic where a government can be
changed by conspiracy." And, in covering up the conspiracy, turn America into a banana republic!



Basically I resent that anyone has to spend their time restudying Bugliosi's garbage --

but bless the researchers who patiently respond!


I will look at the other parts of the rebuttal --



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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. I think it was "Destiny Betrayed" . . . sounds familiar --
Edited on Mon Feb-08-10 01:56 AM by defendandprotect
Garrison and Brussel were IMO the two most brilliant of the researchers --

Weisberg -- Jim Marrs -- Livingstone --

But I think America knew this was a conspiracy immediately --

and that Garrison's comment re us all being "Hamlet" is right on!



Tried to find a link to Brussel's long comments on Manson and what actually went on --

too tired and can't find it right now.

If I find it eventually, I'll PM it to you --



PS: Btw, most of this thread from my view is you having a conversation with "ignored."

:evilgrin:
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CTKA-Probe Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Yeah, interesting stuff. Sorry been very busy as of late!
Livingston has done great work with the medical stuff. His book Kennedy and the Radical Right (its something like that) bar his medical wrap up thats in it (which is very good) is pretty darn bad. Jim Marrs is a lovely guy. Perhaps to nice (Alex Jones and David Icke oh lordy)lol. I think Crossfire is great. But it was written in 1988. Now thats a testament to how good his book is that its still in circulation. But a lot of ARRB stuff has pretty much gone down one route rather than the multiple ones outlined in his book. But hell Jim Marrs did a great service with his work and it was a valuable contribution and its up there with Groden and Livingstones 'High Treason' as a good intro to the case. I still think that Tony Summers 'Conspiracy' and now Jim Douglas's 'JFK and the Unspeakable' are the best introductions to the case. Speaking of another nice guy. Jim Garrison. He was a decent bloke who uncovered as you know some valuable leads. But Jim's tolerance of questionable people whom he trusted deeply saw him cross swords with Weisberg who thought Jim was deliberately snubbing his ideas which he wasn't. Weisberg is a legend but a very cantankerous one lol. Its a shame. Jim G never bore Weisberg any malice what so ever but Harold well he's just Harold lol. His book 'Never Again' is an overlooked Gem however and Weisberg did credit the Garrison investigation for getting Finck on the stand.

Brussel did exceptionally well considering information before the advent of the net was far harder to come by. When you cover as much as ground as Brussel your bound too make one or two mistakes. But shes pretty awesome. One of the saddest misrepresentations of Brussel was that she endorsed the Gemstone Files. Brussel never ever did. In fact the dude that did tried to palm it off to her. The Gemstone Files (as far as the Kennedy assassination goes) is patently absurd. Thus if its crap in that department I don't trust much of anything in it and Brussel thought it was crap. The guy who runs her website is really cool as well.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. "they" somehow "created" mass-murderer Charles Manson...hahahahaaaa!
I dip my toe down here every once and while expecting to be amused at the looniness.

I am rarely disappointed.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Next we'll be hearing from the CT'ers that Bugliosi was spotted on the grassy knoll....
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
31. kick . .. I've read Part One . . .
and hope to continue on reading --

Bugliosi is an idiot -- and a waste of anyone's time --

but here and there Di Eugenio has thrown in some stuff

I didn't know--!!

:)
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