John Perkins- Honduras: Military Coup Engineered By Two US Companies?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

I recently visited Central America. Everyone I talked with there was convinced that the military coup that had overthrown the democratically-elected president of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya, had been engineered by two US companies, with CIA support. And that the US and its new president were not standing up for democracy.

Earlier in the year Chiquita Brands International Inc. (formerly United Fruit) and Dole Food Co had severely criticized Zelaya for advocating an increase of 60% in Honduras’s minimum wage, claiming that the policy would cut into corporate profits. They were joined by a coalition of textile manufacturers and exporters, companies that rely on cheap labor to work in their sweatshops.

Memories are short in the US, but not in Central America. I kept hearing people who claimed that it was a matter of record that Chiquita (United Fruit) and the CIA had toppled Guatemala’s democratically-elected president Jacobo Arbenz in 1954 and that International Telephone & Telegraph (ITT), Henry Kissinger, and the CIA had brought down Chile’s Salvador Allende in 1973. These people were certain that Haiti’s president Jean-Bertrand Aristide had been ousted by the CIA in 2004 because he proposed a minimum wage increase, like Zelaya’s.

I was told by a Panamanian bank vice president, “Every multinational knows that if Honduras raises its hourly rate, the rest of Latin America and the Caribbean will have to follow. Haiti and Honduras have always set the bottom line for minimum wages. The big companies are determined to stop what they call a ‘leftist revolt’ in this hemisphere. In throwing out Zelaya they are sending frightening messages to all the other presidents who are trying to raise the living standards of their people.”


...

http://bit.ly/9wNSU

[malaise]

1. Keep those people poor or else

Who is surprised?

[HamdenRice]

2. John Perkins also says he can turn himself into a lizard

or was it a jaguar? He claims to be a "shape shifter" who goes into the Amazon jungle and turns himself into animals. So I wouldn't put much credence into his "Economic Hitman" type analysis.

[SpiralHawk]

3. Diss the indigenous mysticism of the Americas all you want

The First Peoples of this land are accustomed to having the colonial invaders pretend to 'superiority' while they steal, rape, and murder.

But beyond attitudes of spiritual or scientific 'superiority,' Perkins is still spot on in his analysis of the Darkside realities at play here.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

4. You wouldn't put much credence into

a story about gigantic US corporations being involved in the overthrow of a governnment in Central or South America?

Geez Hamden you can't be considered to be a reputable source on anything if this story even mildly surprises you.

I suggest you take a break and root through the National Security Archives so that you become familiar with real history instead of the fables you've been parroting.

I suppose the CIA meddling in foreign affairs at the behest of US Capital would be too much for you to contend with.

[HamdenRice]

5. Why do you support the clubbing of baby arctic seas for their fur???

Your strawman is pretty transparent. I did not say that the substance of the article didn't happen. I merely observe that if John Perkins says it happened, his statement is not probative on the issue of whether it happened because he says such incredible, unbelievable and false things in other contexts.

Provide a link to another source, and I'd be glad to believe it.

On edit:

http://www.ofspirit.com/carolbedrosian9.htm

Spirit of Change: What is shapeshifting?

John Perkins: From my perspective, shapeshifting can be divided into three levels although it's actually more of a continuum. First is the cellular shapeshift which is when a shaman actually shapes into a jaguar or a warrior hunter shapeshifts into a tree or animal of any kind.

SOC: This happens on a physical level?

JP: Yes, it happens on a physical level.

SOC: Would you be able to see this change?

JP: You can definitely see it. As I read a lot of the literature and research in writing the book Shapeshifting, I kept coming across people who would say "well this sort of thing used to be done, but it can't really be done anymore and it doesn't need to be done." I take strong exception to that because I've seen it done, I've done it myself and I think right now is a very important time to experience it.

Look at all of the people who get cancer. People in the Amazon don't know what cancer is and they can't believe it. When I first started bringing people with cancer to the shaman for healing, the shaman would look inside them as they do using what they call pentsak, which is a technique for actually looking inside a person's body. They would look inside these North Americans' bodies and see these outrageous growths that they'd never seen anything like before. Now that's a very strong cellular shapeshift.

The shamans have dissolved a number of those cells. We've had people come with bad tumors and cancer, have healings and go home, and then go to the doctor's and the tumors are gone. We've all heard of miraculous healings of cancer; well that's a cellular shapeshift. In our culture we don't have a problem accepting that cancer can grow in a person very, very quickly; it can also be gotten rid of just as quickly.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

6. History 101

Overthrow; A Hallmark of U.S. Foreign Policy

Hawaii * Cuba * Philippines * Puerto Rico * Nicaragua * Honduras * Iran * Guatemala * South Vietnam * Chile * Grenada * Panama * Afghanistan * Iraq

We sometimes like to think that our interventions in these countries don't have effects, but when we break down the doors of foreign countries and impose our own leaders, as we did in Iran and as we've recently done in Iraq, we outrage a lot of people.

-Stephen Kinzer, NYT foreign correspondent

What do these 14 governments have in common? You got it. The United States overthrew them. And, in almost in every case, the overthrow can be traced to corporate interests.

In Hawaii, the sugar companies didn’t want to pay export duties—so they overthrew the queen of Hawaii and made it part of the United States. In Guatemala, United Fruit wanted President Jacobo Arbenz out. Out he went. In Chile, President Salvador Allende offended the copper interests. Allende—dead. In Iran, Prime Minister Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh offended major oil interests. Mossadegh out. In Nicaragua, President Jose Santos Zelaya was bothering American lumber and mining companies. Zelaya—out. In Honduras, an American banana magnate organized the coup of the Honduran government. And on down the list.

...



http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_2703.sh...

You're pretty easy to see through.

[HamdenRice]

7. Logic 101

How do those events prove that a guy who says he can turn himself into a lizard is a reliable source?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

8. Thought I'd start with the obvious

However it is also obvious you are in such a reactionary state that you are unwilling to engage honestly.

Your focus on the messenger that brings you tidings you find difficult to stomach is straight from Propaganda Ministry 101.

Try again.

[HamdenRice]

10. Your only source for this story is a guy who says he can turn into a lizard and cure cancer

That has nothing to do with where I am on the political spectrum, which you obviously have no clue about.

I am pointing out that you are citing to a non-credible source. That is a very, very easy concept for most people to understand, but it's apparently way beyond you.

[conscious evolution]

14. Quit wasting your time

You are trying to awaken a person who is pretending to be asleep.

[Echo In Light]

15. *

[HamdenRice]

16. So anyone who doubts John Perkins can turn himself into a doornob or lizard or whatever is "alseep"?

That's now the ideological test of purity?

[Subdivisions]

37. Democracy Now

...snip...

NIKOLAS KOZLOFF: I don’t think so. I think there’s this revolving door of Washington insiders that are supporting companies like Chiquita banana. I just wrote an article about Chiquita, formerly known as the United Fruit Company. And, you know, throughout history, Chiquita banana has had enormous sway and power over Central American nations.


And we know that prior to the coup d’état in Honduras, Chiquita was very unhappy about President Zelaya’s minimum wage decrees, because they said that this would cut into their profits and make it more expensive for them to export bananas and pineapple. And we know that they appealed to the Honduran Business Association, which was also opposed to Zelaya’s minimum wage provisions.


And we also—and what I find really interesting is that Chiquita is allied to a Washington law firm called Covington, which advises multinational corporations. And who is the vice chairman of Covington? None other than John Negroponte, who your previous guest mentioned in regards to the rampant human rights abuses that went on in Honduras throughout the 1980s. So I think that’s a really interesting connection.

...snip...

http://i2.democracynow.org/2009/7/21/from_arbenz_to_zel...

From CounterPunch:


...snip...

The Curious Case of Covington

Look a little deeper and you’ll find that not only does Covington represent Chiquita but also serves as a kind of nexus for the political right intent on pushing a hawkish foreign policy in Latin America. Covington has pursued an important strategic alliance with Kissinger (of Chile, 1973 fame) and McLarty Associates (yes, the same Mack McLarty from Clinton-time), a well known international consulting and strategic advisory firm.

From 1974 to 1981 John Bolton served as an associate at Covington. As U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations under George Bush, Bolton was a fierce critic of leftists in Latin America such as Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez. Furthermore, just recently John Negroponte became Covington’s Vice Chairman. Negroponte is a former Deputy Secretary of State, Director of National Intelligence and U.S. Representative to the United Nations.

As U.S. Ambassador to Honduras from 1981-1985, Negroponte played a significant role in assisting the U.S.-backed Contra rebels intent on overthrowing the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua. Human rights groups have criticized Negroponte for ignoring human rights abuses committed by Honduran death squads which were funded and partially trained by the Central Intelligence Agency. Indeed, when Negroponte served as ambassador his building in Tegucigalpa became one of the largest nerve centers of the CIA in Latin America with a tenfold increase in personnel.

While there’s no evidence linking Chiquita to the recent coup in Honduras, there’s enough of a confluence of suspicious characters and political heavyweights here to warrant further investigation. From COHEP to Covington to Holder to Negroponte to McLarty, Chiquita has sought out friends in high places, friends who had no love for the progressive labor policies of the Zelaya regime in Tegucigalpa.

http://www.counterpunch.org/kozloff07172009.html

[BuddyBoy]

38. Gotta discredit THAT message PDQ. Some how, some way.

Even if it means taking aim at the particular messenger in question.

[HamdenRice]

39. quote "While there’s no evidence linking Chiquita to the recent coup in Honduras..."

While it's possible, no one has posted evidence from a credible source.

[BuddyBoy]

41. Does it maybe, kinda, even remotely seem possible?

What does your knowledge of history and how the world works tell you? (in your NEUTRAL capacity as an observer - not as an advocate)

[HamdenRice]

43. Sure it's possible, but I'm not going to take the word of a lizard

I wrote both my undergraduate and law school theses on US military occupations of a particular Latin American country, and how US sugar companies evicted almost the entire peasant population of a region. I'm well aware of what the history is.

The point is that the OP's claim that this is one of those coups rests on the claim of a guy who says he can turn into a lizard and cure cancer.

Not every coup is planned here, and in the context of a Latin America renaissance dominated by Lula, Chavez and Morales, Honduras looks more like a last gasp of deadenders than a classic fruit company coup.

[BuddyBoy]

44. Oh, I see. You found something irrelevant on which to

base your opinion (if indeed that's all it is - as opposed to something else which I have no factual basis to conjecture).

[HamdenRice]

45. So the credibility of your news sources is "irrelevant"? Enjoy Fox much? Glenn Beck?

Do you take your views of health reform from Sarah Palin -- I mean, credibility doesn't matter, right?

[BuddyBoy]

47. If SP says something that makes sense, I wouldn't try to

deny it nor would I respond to it by trying to minimize it by attacking HER, but I get the feeling that you WOULD.

[glitch]

19. Wish I'd said that. :) nt

[SpiralHawk]

11. Free clue from an authentic Dead White Male

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dream't of in your Philosophy." - Billy Shakespeare

[abumbyanyothername]

17. SImple

If A says P, and B says P, and C says P, and D says P, then when E says P, E's personal credibility is not at issue.

[HamdenRice]

20. So who are A, B, C and D in this article?

That's what I was asking for. Right now, according to the OP subject line, it's only E, and E says he can turn himself into a lizard and cure cancer.

And the link is to a website that shills for Alex Jones, the "Zeitgeist" movie, "The Obama Deception", Rense, David Icke (who says we are under a dictatorship of alien lizard humanoids from outerspace) and other classics of wing nuttery.

[Realityhack]

28. I seldom agree with Hamden but in this case I do.

You need to provide a more reliable source for the story.

I have no problem believing that a US company and the CIA *could* do something like this. But that does not represent evidence that they *did* do it.
If there is evidence or a reliable source for the information then I can make an informed conclusion. But if the only evidence you can present then no rational person can conclude that this *DID* take place.

[AZCat]

26. I remember that show!

I saw that as a kid in the early eighties. Wasn't it called "Manimal"? I heard later it sucked.

[ddeclue]

9. There's a reason it's called a "banana" republic..

[blindpig]

12. k&r

Of course, this is the equivalent of clubbing baby seals or some such shit cause HR sez so. Ignore the obvious.

[PufPuf23]

13. Anyone at DU that doesn't realize US support for

the Honduras coup is exceptionally naive. Zelaya also wants to turn the airbase that is the largest USA military base in Latin America to at least partial civilian use and also joined ALBA (aligned Honduras with tyhe Bolivarian movement).

Obama and Clinton confuse me on this issue. Holder has a legal history of defending outside corporations in Latin America.

[H2O Man]

18. Recommended.

I believe that this is accurate.

[Realityhack]

29. Why? n/t

[Karmadillo]

21. Eric Holder, Chiquita, and the Colombian Death Squads

http://prorev.com/2008/11/eric-holder-chiquita-and-colo...

Kevin Gray, Portfolio, October 2007 - For years, Chiquita Brands secretly paid off death squads in Colombia. Now the U.S. Congress is asking questions. . .

In northern Colombia's lush banana-growing region. . . Chiquita Brands International, the $655 million fruit giant, slipped into a blood-soaked scandal. Between 1997 and 2004, Chiquita gave $1.7 million to the A.U.C., whose death squads destroyed unions, terrorized workers, and killed thousands of civilians. Chiquita's top officials admit approving the payments but say they thought that if they didn't pay up, the A.U.C. would kill its employees and attack its facilities. Because the U.S. State Department has labeled the A.U.C. a terrorist organization, federal prosecutors charged Chiquita in March with engaging in transactions with terrorists. In an agreement with the Justice Department, Chiquita pleaded guilty and will pay a $25 million fine. . .

The firm's lawyers have struggled to explain publicly that Chiquita had to make a choice between "life and law" and that it chose the "humanitarian" route of protecting its workers. "This company was in a bad position dealing with bad guys," says Eric Holder, a Washington attorney representing Chiquita. "There's absolutely no suggestion of any personal gain here. It's not a case like Tyco, where someone is squirreling money away. No one is out buying great shower curtains."

As a corporation, though, Chiquita stood to benefit greatly from the lethal cleansing that Castano delivered. At the time, the Marxist guerrillas routinely kidnapped U.S. executives, blew up railroads, and sabotaged oil pipelines. Chiquita says it became increasingly difficult to protect its workers and their families. Castano's death squads, however, were squarely pro-business. They were not just ridding Uraba of guerrillas; they were killing leftists and eradicating unions. . .

<edit>

Scott Creighton - Barack Obama, the man who spoke so eloquently in the last debate about not passing the Columbia Free Trade Agreement until more was done to bring the killers of the union workers to justice, has just announced that he is going to make the lawyer for one of the companies responsible for these killings, his Attorney General. You can't make this stuff up.

[blindpig]

22. Transfering this post to 911 is bullshit.

eom

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Realityhack]

25. Why?

The OP linked to a CT website. Read the forum rules.

[CrispyQ]

27. Total. --nt

[EFerrari]

31. It must be because of the source because all the pieces of this story

have all ready been reported in other venues.

[ensho]

23. kick

nt

[EFerrari]

30. Amy Goodman: “From Arbenz to Zelaya: Chiquita in Latin America”

Honduran military overthrew the democratically elected government of Manuel Zelaya two weeks ago there might have been a sigh of relief in the corporate board rooms of Chiquita banana,” writes journalist Nikolas Kozloff. “Earlier this year the Cincinnati-based fruit company joined Dole in criticizing the government in Tegucigalpa which had raised the minimum wage by 60%.” Kozloff goes on to trace Chiquita’s “long and sordid” political history in Central America.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/21/from_arbenz_to_ze...

Audio, video, transcript at link

[crickets]

32. Perhaps you could repost this with better sources or a different link?

It's an important issue that needs more attention.

I'm not sure what the problem was, unless it was the link itself. Pardon my naivete, but there's nothing wrong with John "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" Perkins, is there?

[HamdenRice]

33. John Perkins is a fraud

While I think he is trying to be on the right side, his story is nonsense and when you combine that with his "other" line of work -- lecturing about how he turns himself into animals and cures cancer as a shape shifting shaman -- his "Hitman" story seems pretty non-credible.

Perkins doesn't seem to know the difference between the World Bank and IMF, for example (it's the IMF that did the stuff he was talking about, not the World Bank). He says that the intelligence agency carrying out all this dirty work was the NSA, but the NSA was not an operational intelligence agency but a "signals intelligence" (ie electronic eavesdropping) agency. No one I knew in the banking sector, including "development bank" sector, ever used the term "economic hitman" or anything like it, yet Perkins says the term was used pervasively.

I think he wrote a neat work of fiction that told a story people wanted to hear, but I don't find it at all credible.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

34. You've done well

You must be connected. Tsk, tsk.

Wouldn't want this stuff to see the light of day now would you?

Wonder why? Hmmm.

Plain to see that the Empire rolls on, with a better veneer though, and you don't mind at all.

[Realityhack]

35. I see you can not actually address any of the points HR made. n/t

[HamdenRice]

40. And you continue to support the slaughter of baby seals by clubbing to death and ...

the ripping off of their hides while they are still alive -- because you disagree with me.

You continue to use the most laughable and juvenile of all DU bogus rhetorical moves -- namely, "if you disagree with any aspect of what I'm saying," then "you must be connected," "wouldn't want" my bogus story "to see the light of day," and support "the Empire roll<ing> on."

This is why I have little respect for what you have to say.

But let me ask again: Why do you support the slaughter by clubbing of those adorable baby arctic seals? Why do you support genocide in Eastern Congo? And why do you support the regime in Burma?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

42. Hey Hammy

Did you see the same story posted over in GD?

Surely you should visit that thread and give your status quo perspective. Certainly you've got some brilliant thoughts on the far-fetched idea of a US orchestrated coup that you could share with us mere mortals who still choose to use their critical thinking skills rather than march lockstep.

Here's the link Hammy:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Your erudition is always such a thrill.

Oh yeah and yours truly has probably been one of the few posters over the last several years who has actually examined in detail what is going on in the Eastern Congo and is also knowledgeable enough to abstain from the Save Darfur phoniness and to understand what happened in Rwanda beyond the media caricatures.

I'm not really disagreeing with what you are saying as you aren't really saying anything.

[HamdenRice]

46. "Did Orwellian Ghost slap around his/her significant other and molest children?"

All that post is, is a question. Anyone can ask any stupid suggestive question without any evidence, can't they?

So did "Did Orwellian Ghost slap around his/her significant other and molest children at McDonald's play center? We have no evidence that he/she/it did, but we have no evidence that he/she/it didn't!!!!!"

[Realityhack]

36. There may be problems with him but...

I am assuming the mods moved this thread because it violated the DU rules regarding linking to a CT site.