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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:09 PM
Original message
Zelikow caught in big fat lie - 9/11 Commission (lying to protect BushCheney)
Remember the talk by the 9/11 Commission about recommending indictments for the FAA and NORAD for lying to the
comission? I do, it was very noteworthy. Guess what? It was all a charade, a little theater by Zelikoe (Rice's
former subordinate) and others to deflect attention from the fact that they were doing just the opposite.

Go figure?

------------------------------

Zelikow Caught in a Whopper; Made False Statements to Author about Criminal Referral for NORAD, FAA[br />Kevin Fenton's blog


Documents recently found in the National Archives cast doubt on the integrity of the 9/11 Commissions Executive Director Philip Zelikow. In an e-mail exchange with author Philip Shenon, Zelikow claimed that he first learned of a dispute on the commission over the investigation of false statements made by NORAD and FAA officials after it had been "percolating for a while" and was not involved in the initial stages of the argument. However, an e-mail chain (scroll down) found in the Archives by History Commons contributor paxvector shows that Zelikow had been involved in the issue from very near the beginning.

Zelikow made the claim he was not involved in the initial stages of the dispute in response to an allegation made by commission staffer John Azzarello and relayed by Shenon. After the staff investigators drafted a memo for the commissioners in early April 2004 outlining why they thought NORAD and FAA officials had deliberately lied to them to overstate the militarys readiness during the attacks, Zelikow "just buried that memo," according to Azzarello. In response, Zelikow claimed that he had not even known of the issue at the start. The implication was that, as he had not known of it, it could not be him that was orchestrating--or even involved in--a dispute between the staff investigators and the commissions lawyers, Daniel Marcus and Steve Dunne.

However, the newly found e-mail chain shows Zelikow did know of the issue in April, raising the question as to why he falsely told Shenon he did not. Zelikow is not known to be linked to the FAA, but, if the commission had referred the matter to the Justice Department and it had started a perjury investigation against NORAD officials, this would certainly have had the potential to embarrass his friends at the Pentagon, Zelikow is alleged to have husbanded the issue to ensure a less potentially embarrassing referral to the inspectors general of the FAA and Defense Department, who in the end blamed the false statements on innocent mistakes and poor logkeeping.

More:
http://www.911blogger.com/node/20172

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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. A new commission might not be a bad idea. . . . n/t
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
79. yes, probably in the fall
around September
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itsrobert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. Why was this discussion moved to a forum nobody visits?
?
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Because 9/11 isn't to be discussed among polite company. n/t
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Didn't take 'em long to bury your news...
almost record time for moving a legitimate story into the dungeon. :grr:
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liberalla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I AGREE. This maddening.
This is a valid and legitimate story.

:mad:
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's cowardice.
The inability to discuss the events relating to the tragedy of 9/11 is based on the fear that the truth could be too disturbing.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. The internet is thataway.
Write when you find your freedom.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bryan Sacks Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
84. Zelikow has replied to Kevin Fenton
Just got home from a vacation myself, so I'm not up to speed on this. But here is the reply (apologies if posted previously):

"I noticed this particular blog comment. My statement to Shenon was accurate. The trip I referenced in my message to him took place in March 2004 (while my children were on spring break), as commission records should show. Just as I told Shenon, I became deeply involved in the arguments going on inside the staff on my return from that trip and actually was involved in preparation of the April 2004 interim report, which I discussed at that time with Kean and Hamilton. I worked on the April 2004 interim report and agreed with it. You have uncovered another, later round of the issue, in the phase that led to full commission discussion of what to do (with Farmer helping to present the issue to the Commission) and the Commissions final decision on how to handle this. Having confused this later phase of the issue with the earlier one, you then make the various mistaken assumptions, and assumptions on the assumptions, personal accusations, etc."

Comment by Philip Zelikow May 22, 2009 @ 9:49 pm | Reply

http://hcgroups.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/zelikow-caught... /
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is about the clever Mr. Zelikow not any conspiracy, other than his stuff.

This Zelikow has run rough shod over the whole government. He's the Forrest Gump of Bush Sleaze.

That's what the thread is about.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It's a conspiracy!!
Hello, Auto. Welcome to the DU Gitmo imitation detention center.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I don't understand why you hang around complaining about things here
Why don't you go somewhere where you can publish this stuff as much as you want?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I do it all for you, Bolo
Just for you. Hi!
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'd prefer facts, evidence, and logical arguments
Your incessant games are only for your own amusement.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. And you prefer it sooooooo much too. Everyday. It's your life, Bolo,
Edited on Sat May-23-09 03:41 AM by Subdivisions
sitting in this dank, damp, and dark dungeon day in and day out in your never-ending quest to ruin every thread out of the deepest love for us "truthers".
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. I believe the metaphor "dungeon" is confusing you.
I'm actually in a nice room, sunlit, enjoying the day while posting in this forum. You probably are, too.

"Ruining every thread" = my demanding facts, evidence, and logical arguments? Why are you so against these concepts.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. I don't understand why you hang around this forum.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
37. Well, I like the way the site is run, I like the general purpose of the site -- why wouldn't I? n/t
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
73. I think he specifically meant this 9/11 forum bolo....
Edited on Sat May-23-09 03:39 PM by wildbilln864
you don't hang much elsewhere on here. Only in the Sept. 11th forum. :eyes:
"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty. "
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Zelikow is an artful dodger
Edited on Sat May-23-09 01:41 AM by autorank

He's out there saying he wrote an alternative memo on torture and now we find out that he spiked a key finding
on NORAD and the FAA. This is evidence from the National Archives, which means some smart researcher went through
a bunch of docs and bingo. There it was. Now the task is to get that investigated. If it turns out, as it appears,
that Zelikow said one thing in public and worked behind the scenes to do the opposite, that's not executing his
government assigned role.

The book by Sehenon, "The Commission," is an excellent summary from a mainstream reporter. It opens a lot of doors
and this is one that is truly worthy of nailing down.

Good to see you. :hi:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Yeah
One would think that supporters of OCT, in order to remain credible, would welcome a thorough research of their chief architect.

Instead it gets relegated to the dungeon. That says something, eh?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Any post that links to 911blogger will be sent here
If it's a legitimate story, you should be able to find a legitimate source. I doubt you will find much, though. I'm no Zelikow fan, but this story is about 98% spin.

"On the later <2004> question of a later criminal or IG referral of NORAD and FAA, there was indeed a dispute on how to handle these issues between the team and Dan & Steve. So they did have a dispute with "the front office." I later deduced that this dispute had been percolating for a while, building up some tension and perhaps also some misunderstanding."

"The issue was them bumped up to me, hitting me for the first time as I returned to DC from a trip out of town. I well remember being startled when I came back and read a message on this, addressed or cc'd to me for the first time, in which emotions were already riding pretty high and people were mistakenly assuming that I'd been involved in this seemingly long-running dispute all along."

<snip>

The e-mail chain therefore shows that Zelikow had had various interactions on the issue before the first one he claimed in his exchange with Shenon:

(1) He attended the April 22 meeting, and may have read Farmers interim memo on the topic;

(2) He believes he discussed the issue with Kean, who was certainly aware of the vague allegations, as is shown by his later call to Farmer;

(3) There was also a discussion with Hamilton, which either Zelikow was involved in or learned of later;

(4) He received the June 1 e-mail from Farmer;

(5) He replied to Farmer;

(6) He received the e-mail from Marcus that led to the emotional e-mail.

Either these six, and possibly more interactions just slipped Zelikows mind when he was replying to Shenons inquiry, or he lied deliberately.


No, that's certainly not the only interpretation and in fact it appears to be a complete misinterpretation. Which "issue" did Zelikow have "various interactions" on: The issue of how to handle the FAA and NORAD false testimony, or the issue of a strong disagreement and arguments among the staff? It appears to me to be the former. Which issue was he referring to in his alleged "whopper?" That would appear to be to be the latter, and the emails don't indicate that he was aware of those disputes. Take away the spin, and there's really no story there.

I definitely believe we ought to know the truth about the FAA and NORAD responses on 9/11, and I think there should be criminal prosecutions for deliberately lying to the Commission. But bullshit never did anyone any good, and in this case it could be poisoning the well.

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. We'll see if anyone bothers to explain this
Edited on Sat May-23-09 01:54 AM by autorank
I didn't do the research on this. It's an interesting take and there are some things to look at.

The well poisoning had been done so well by the explanations and the incomplete investigations. The statement to
the public about a referral on these matters was very clear. Let's see what was done. It's not hard. Justice
can produce the referral and settle this, presuming the document and story passes muster.

On edit: Forgot this. The most damning thing in Shenon's book relates to Zelikow's selection as staff director.
The spin from Hamilton and Kean was this - we had no idea that Zelikow was so central to the 2000 transition; he didn't
put it on his resume. Whoa, what a load that is. When I read that sequence, I just Googled

Zelikow 2000 Bush transition (News, 2000)

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&ned=us&hl=en&...

Wasn't hard - LA Times, Washington Post, Christian Science Monitor - mainstream. He's right there.

Take a look at the same search terms in 2004.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?um=1&ned=us&hl=en&...

Maybe Kean and Hamilton don't know about Google. Maybe they don't know about having staffers do a background search.
Maybe they don't have anyone trusted who'd come up to them and say, "Hey, this guy is connected tightly to Rice and
wrote a terrorism position paper for the transition. Better look elsewhere since he 'poisons the well' on this
investigation."

That's simply too many qualifiers to explain the claimed ignorance on this guy. His presence is a deal killer
on any real credibility for the final document. Bush investigating Bush. Not OK.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I guess you didn't understand what I meant by "poisoning the well"
I spent a fair amount of time looking into your claim that Zelikow told a "big fat lie" -- a "whopper" -- and I found it to be bunch of bullshit. Why should I take more time to look at your new charges against Zelikow?

I'm not saying that I won't, and as I said, I'm definitely not a Zelikow fan, and I do believe he was a major source of political influence to protect BushCo's ass. I'm talking about how most people will feel if they also check out this "whopper" story and find that it's really bullshit. Why would you expect them to take anything else you say seriously?
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
82. Tell us what you found, why you think it's a whoper
How would I know that you did that. I'd like to see the basis of your conclusion.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #82
88. You didn't read post #12 ? (n/t)
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Threads about Zelikow's testimony in the torture hearings the other day
were allowed to stand. But bring up his involvement in the 9/11 Commission and straight to the shit pile it goes to be picked over by the Ministry of Dis-Information vultures hiding under their bridges here.

This post will be deleted in 3...2...1...POOF!
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Hmmm, it doesn't look to be deleted to me
Wanna bet it's still here next week?

And since you seem to have lost the plot: This story IS disinformation. And, I just checked on Google to see who else might be "reporting" it and found it on "truther" bullshit pile after bullshit pile.

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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. 'Wanna bet it's still here next week?'
And you'll be too, won't you? And the week after that. And the week after that. Day in and day out. Working your shift. Debating with people you believe have lost the plot about a subject you've already made your mind up about. And, for what purpose? Tell me, Seger, why do you and your unit-mates spend so much time debating people you think are crazy and why do you do so in such a regimented way?

Oh, and by the way, since you think I've lost the plot anyways...of course you won't find this information any place other than "truther" sites since the very people who perpetrated 9/11 are the same people who own and control the major news outlets.

At any rate, if anyone has lost the plot, it is you and your cohorts who spend all your time debating people whom you believe to be crazy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. :(
The next time anyone (including me) wonders why it is so damn hard to discuss reality on this board, this shtick about "truthers" will provide some clues.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Irony post of the month
Maybe of the year.

The clear reason that it's "so damn hard to discuss reality on this board" is that so many "truthers" feel offended by it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Reality
The OCT reality? After all the truths about how it was written have come out but yall just continue to suck on that false teat? And you have the audacity to complain about discussing reality? Yeah, we "truthers" are damned well offended, and rightly so. Fuck the Bushco bastard step-child OCT.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. The "OCT reality" that you're referring to
... is a straw man I have no interest in defending, so knock yourself out pretending to be relevant. It does appear to me that the FAA and NORAD told the 9/11 Commission stories about their responses that were intended to make themselves look less unprepared for that kind of attack and more like they were doing the best anyone could under the circumstances. Similarly, I believe the CIA and the FBI spun their stories so they didn't look so inept. It certainly does not follow that we should start believing "truther" bullshit as an antedote to that kind of ass-covering. Those of us who are pragmatists believe that the first step in effective problem solving is figuring out what the problem really is. How the hell will any real problems get fixed if you go off attacking imaginary and delusional ones, BeFree?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. Gawd
The OCT "..is a strawman" How goofy is that?

".. have no interest in defending.." Even goofier.

"...pretending to be relevant." The OCT is not relevant?

I'm stopping right there. You have displayed and abject sense of Orwellian typography that is nothing more than an attempt to rewrite your whole thesis. You, sir, are typing out a delusional illusion that goes against your whole damned argument!!

How embarrassing!!

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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. So you don't have a good answer to my question?
Edited on Sat May-23-09 02:41 PM by William Seger
Would that be because you can't come up with any good answer to my question that would preserve your straw man?

I wonder if you will ever start to wonder why you are having such a hard time defending your position on any topic.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. This one?
"How the hell will any real problems get fixed if you go off attacking imaginary and delusional ones, BeFree?"

Well, you already threw the OCT under the bus so we are on our way toward fixing that problem. As far as attacking imaginary ones, the OCT we both agree is imaginary so now you just have to convince those who think it's reality. Then we are really moving forward. Big task ahead of you, there, as most of them won't even begin to admit it's delusional foundings.

But I'm here to help you and look forward to helping you spread your newfound message. "OCT? Under the damn bus..." Works for me.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. "threw the OCT under the bus"
There's never been any logical reason for equating calling bullshit on "truther" nonsense with defending what you, yourself, define as the "OCT." I'm glad to have helped you work your way past that cognitive barrier.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Fuck the OCT
It is the most repulsive thing Bushco ever put out. Glad to see you backing away from it. But, I wonder, how long will that last? Not long, one can imagine.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Is there some particular reason
... why you NEVER pay any attention to what people are saying to you? It's kinda annoying.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Yeah
Good. Did you ever consider that what you have to say is the real annoyance?
That anything that even closely resembles Bushco is an annoyance? Did ya?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Nope
That's way too illogical for my taste. I thought maybe there was some hope for you after appearing to clear a major cognitive barrier, but your relapse only took about a half-hour. Oh well...

But you ducked my question instead of answering it, so let me ask it a different way: How does 9/11 "truther" bullshit do anyone any good?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Answer
"How does 9/11 "truther" bullshit do anyone any good?"

It helps to put the final nail in the coffin of Bushco.
Because, as we agree, Bushco is our enemy. Not anonymous internet posters.
Bushco is our enemy, Right?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Have you been asleep the last six months?
Good news: Thanks to all the conspiracists exposing the plot in advance, BushCO was unable to launch another "false flag" attack, declare martial law, and cancel the elections.

I believe that history will judge BushCo as being the worst administration this country has ever suffered. I believe that because, regardless of the personal failings of other Presidents, BushCo was certainly the one that did the most real damage to the country as a direct result of its policies. No other administration even comes close, IMO.

But what, exactly, does that have to do with promoting 9/11 bullshit? There's no need to make shit up to slime BushCo; there's more than enough reality to do that.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. Well
You asked: "But what, exactly, does that have to do with promoting 9/11 bullshit? "

Promoting? While some of the 'truthers' here do post some seemingly smelly bullshit, (and there are some suspicions they do so on purpose) for the most part the 9/11 bullshit comes from the Bushco OCT. We are fighting Bushco. Well, maybe not you, but most of us are.

Not only do we not trust Bushco, but we also distrust the OCT. And we have good reason for that distrust. And frankly, I haven't read a whole lot here, or anywhere to increase any trust I might have ever had. Basically, that means that yall have failed to promote the OCT.

Too, what we have witnessed about the course of action over the last seven years is that the defense of the OCT has been caught up in a whirlwind of lies, obfuscation and basic undemocratic actions. Actions that any true patriot should have major problems with. And we have finally got some OCT supporters to admit that they do have some problems with the Official Theory.

Do you have any problems with the Official Theory? Of course you do, how dumb of me to ask.

Ya know, now would be a good time to tell us what those problems are, we may be able to help you. That's another reason to discuss this.... to help others see their problems. To bring them out into the sunshine. To help put a final nail in the Bushco coffin. We don't want them coming back, do we?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. It's really tough...
... trying to have a conversation with someone who doesn't bother even trying to understand what other people say. I already answered your question in a previous post, and once again you seem to have nothing of significance to add to the discussion at hand. So, nighty night, and don't forget to check under your bed.


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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. Gawd
How embarrassed you must be to weasel out like that. Well, if that's all the defenders of the OCT can do, it does nothing but undermine the OCT.

Good job, your effort has helped to destroy the OCT. Keep it up!!
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. And yet, still, you spend all your time debating people whom you
deem as having "lost the plot". I offer that anyone who spends all their time debating people whom they believe to be crazy is the one who has "lost the plot".
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Trying to convince YOU that the "truth movement" is built on bullshit would indeed be pointless
... but that's not the point. I really couldn't care less what "truthers" buy; my concern is with what they try to sell.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. And why is that your concern? What are you afraid of, Will? n/t
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Really, what business of it is yours why it's Seger's or anyone's concern?
More facts, evidence, and logical arguments, less personal attacks.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Your on an internet message board. That makes it my business. By the way,
why do you feel the need to jump in a defend seger? Has he gone off the clock or what?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. No, it is not your business to attack people based on their motivation for being here.
Or if it is, that's the business of a troll and you need to find a new hobby.

I'm discussing a subject. I don't know where Seger is. Again, you attack him by implying he's on the clock while here. More facts and logical arguments, less personal attacks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. 'You really don't get it, do you'... Actually, NO! I do not get why you do it.
I do have my suspicions though.

Ok now, enough with your nonsense. Please address the substance of my post. What is it about you and your psyops unit mates that has you coming to this insane asylum day in and day out, hour after hour, to defend against people whom you think are nuts? Does it make you any more sane than us to sit here day after day debating those of us whom you believe to have "lost the plot"?
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. I've explained that many, many times, and it shouldn't NEED any explanation
First, bullshit that's just ignored doesn't just disappear; it spreads and multiplies. And second, bullshit doesn't do anyone any good.

And if that answer doesn't satisfy you... tough shit.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Why do you care if we indulge our "fantasies"? What do you care
if it spreads and multiplies? You already have your answer. So, why aren't you out playing with your kids or your wife/gf or enjoying the day? Instead, here you are - in the fucking 9/11 Dungeon. With us nuts. What do you care what we think? Are you afraid of something, Seger? Are you afraid if you leave us alone to long to wallow in our lunacy that perhaps we'll actually figure it out? Tell me...
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Because you do so at a public website whose general purpose I agree with.
And so I like to keep silly ideas at the very least challenged by the actual facts, evidence, and logical arguments. These are things that can only make your arguments stronger, if you incorporate them into your ideas. However, instead of working with the actual facts, you always manage to start convincing me and others to NOT post here, and NOT make your arguments stronger. Why do you avoid the facts? Why do you prefer silly ideas?
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. You shouldn't be bothering with us crazy people. You should go
outside and play and leave us to our delusions. But you don't. You spend your time trying to convince people whom you believe to be crazy that we should think differently. Sort of makes you crazy, doesn't it? Now, run along, won't you?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. I've not said you were "crazy people". Stop putting words in my mouth.
Thank you for your kind though unwelcome suggestions for how to spend my time. I reject them. And I will continue to reject them, so you might as well stop giving them and start giving facts, evidence, and logical arguments instead. Of course you're free not to do that, but why not do something that would make your silly ideas less silly?
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
91. QUIT HIJACKING THE THREAD
Oh, sorry.... it's you...

Please resume your silly turn of the subject, by all means.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
77. so why you don't do the same with other subjects bolo? nt
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. Actually, wildbill, I do.
I know, I know. You don't see it. Well, good. That lets me know you're not running around the Internet trying to figure out what I do.

Wildbill, understand this. Your limited experience of me is not enough to judge me or what I do. Stop pretending that it is and start coming up with a viable alternative supported by facts, evidence, and logical arguments.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #81
86. not at DU you don't. nt
Edited on Sun May-24-09 12:02 AM by wildbilln864
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #86
89. Yes, I do.
Not even your limited experience of my posting here at DU is enough to make that kind of judgment about me. Please stop.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. You have put your finger on the exact contradiction evinced between their words
and their actions.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. There's no contradiction here
You participate in a community garden, and you work to keep the weeds out. We disagree on what are weeds, but the debunkers here have the benefit of official policy supporting us. It's been made perfectly clear that these topics are only to be discussed in this forum and that conspiracy theorists don't get the protection afforded by an actual DU group. That's the way the people who own this garden prefer it. Feel free to spread elsewhere, on a forum more conducive to what you don't consider to be weeds, and I doubt you'll see any of us follow you there. Feel free to spread as far and wide on your own Internet turf. This area belongs to all of us, and as long as that's the case, we'll be here weeding.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. You poor thing. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
53. LOL. This lame counterattack just isn't working for you, is it?
You're trying to defend spreading bullshit by asking what I'm "afraid" of? I don't need to ask what you're afraid of.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Your being here defending what has already been established as
Edited on Sat May-23-09 12:28 PM by Subdivisions
"truth" by the official conspiracy theory is what is lame, Will. What is lame is that you sit here day after day in defense of what you've already decided is fact. What is lame is that you care what us "truthers" think about it so you defend it as if your life depends on it. What is lame is that you defend that silly toilet paper othewise known as the 9/11 Commission Report. Since I've "lost the plot", I'm hardly responsible for my own behavior, now am I? Yet, here you are, debating crazy people on a daily basis. That's lame.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. "What is lame is that you care what us 'truthers' think about it" ?
No, I do not -- not in the sense you mean, anyway. You have already been bitten by the conspiracism vampire, and unfortunately that means you are probably hopeless. Conspiracism is a one-way dead-end street with little hope for escape. After 40 years or so of "debating" people who believe all sorts of highly implausible things for no good reason, I don't have any illusions about changing your mind or explaining to you why I care. But sorry, that's not the point, and this isn't all about you. Your hopelessness is certainly no good reason to give up the battle for rationality.

And yes, you are responsible for your own behavior.

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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Still lame. Oh well. n/t
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. I think it's far more useful for this post to remain
The next time anyone (including me) wonders why it is so damn hard to discuss reality on this board, this shtick about ministry vultures under bridges will provide some clues.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Ouch. But, tell me, if you believe your bullshit, why is it so important to you
to discuss it? If there were no one who thought different from you, would you be here discussing 9/11? What would there be left to discuss? It would seem to me that if everyone believed the ridiculous story you've swallowed, there would be nothing left to discuss.

So, why do you find it necessary to discuss it any further just because us "truthers" don't beleive it? Who are you trying to convince?
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. no, rather, I wish it were possible to discuss it
I'm a naturally curious person. People like you seem to think you have something interesting to say, and I would like to know what it is.

Failing that, why you work so hard at being impossible to listen to is a mildly interesting conundrum in itself. Superficially it seems like a dismal way of getting what you presumably want.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. If you believe the official narrative of 9/11, what is it you are curious about?
If you believe it, then why do you care to know what it is I have to say? Instead, you could be out enjoying the day or participating in other areas of the board. After all, it's clear I'm never going to change your mind. So, why waste time with me or anyone else who doesn't believe the OCT?
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. frankly, I find your questions bizarre
Edited on Sat May-23-09 01:52 PM by OnTheOtherHand
As I've tried to explain many times, I think that the "official narrative" is more a construct of its critics than it is anyone's article(s) of faith. Assuming it is true that I believe the "official narrative" as you construe it, that doesn't imply that I am bound always to believe it in every particular. I'm not sure why I should have to explain this once, much less repeatedly. Do you really not get it?

Have you never in your life had the experience of changing your mind about anything whatsoever? Or do you assume that I haven't? Or what?

Certainly at this rate you will never change my mind. Some attention to substance would greatly improve your chances on that front. Right now you seem to be trying to convince me that I am a troll, and that is a non-starter.

(edit subject for etiquette)
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I find your motivation bizarre. n/t
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. You keep confusing this forum with the "discuss the motivations of other DUers" forum
Maybe you could ask the administrators to create a forum where you can discuss motivations of other posters to your heart's content.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. I hereby announce that, for the time being, I will no longer be
posting in this forum. It is clear that those of us who do not believe the OCT are having our posts purged while Oct-o-Bots' just as insulting posts are being allowed to remain. The rules should apply to everyone. It's obvious that is not the case here. Oct-o-Bots are above the law.

I choose not to have a pizza delivery for the likes of you and your mates. I am a 10,000+ post participant of this board, most of which has been elsewhere on DU, discussing the news of the day and Democratic and Progressive issues, and I don't want to risk being unable to participate in those areas.

To my compatriates here, best of luck and, please, feel free to contact me by PM anytime as I rather do enjoy discussing 9/11 with those of you of like mind and your friendship and comaraderie is most welcome. And, if you're interested, I've compiled some very interesting information from across the Internet concerning the tactics used here and those employing those tactics.

Oct-o-Bots, there is no need in replying with your smartass bullshit as I will no longer tolerate it. You may consider this another victory if you wish. But rest assured that I will take my 9/11 "fantasies" to friendlier climes. And perhaps some day, some way, we'll get to the truth of who really killed all those people that day and in the years since.

Adieu.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Any posts you think break the rules, you should alert.
I welcome an honest and open discussion of the facts, the evidence, and logical arguments -- free from constant assaults on personal motivation and people here.

Enjoy your friendlier climes.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Don't blame you
They aren't worth getting stoned. All it does it make them gleeful. It's a real shame they can't actually discuss their own damned theory.

Good luck, and will be talking.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
80. Nothing is worth getting banned from here.
Nobody is trying to get anyone tombstoned. And I would LOVE to discuss the theories of anybody using facts, evidence, and logical arguments. Instead, it doesn't take much at all for you and Subdivision and others to start discussing why DUers are here and making personal attacks (which get deleted).
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #80
92. Correct that-
Only CERTAIN personal attacks will you get the mod sqad to delete!
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #65
75. Bye
I'm sure we'll all get a little something extra in our paychecks this week for defeating such a formidable opponent. :eyes:
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-24-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #65
87. "But rest assured that I will take my 9/11 "fantasies" to friendlier climes"
I feel better already.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #65
94. Don't let them chase you off...Let's petition administration for separate 9/11 location . . .
I would agree it should be seen in "Greatest Thread" etc. . .

but needs to be separate because of interest and responses that accrue, rightly so!

But let's get it out of the dungeon.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
93. There should simply be a separate site for 9/11 . . . and it should be prominent --
Let's all ask the administration to work on that --

Agree . . . Zelikow's coming out to suggest that he and Condi were against torture

is an attempt to cover their trails.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted subthread.
May as well get it out of the way.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-03-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
95. What's Zelikow doing these days?
He's a talented sort. Trying to show the world how he did his best, re torture memos.

The Zelikow Memo | Shadow Government
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