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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:07 AM
Original message
To those who park their asses here...
I understand why some would wish to uncover the truth of what happened. I understand that with all the unanswered questions, many would like to post here and discuss.

What I do not understand is those that park their asses here simply to be an obstruction to those who wish to do the above.

If you believe the official story and have no questions, why would you stay here in the dungeon just to be a snarky asshole to those who have questions?

Does it make you feel smarter? Are you threatened by the idea that there may be a secrets in this world that you are not privy to?

I am not foolish enough to believe that you are paid to shut down conversation, but I do wonder what psychological forces drive your need to patronize.

The tactics are old: Condescension, obfuscation and bullying. But the question is why.
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why even bother to acknowledge these people?
It's common sense: The more attention you give them, the longer they will stay and the louder they will be. Why do you keep doing exactly what they want you to do?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why do you feel that discussions about 9/11 "truth"...
must solely be uncritical?

Sid
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. A better question is: Why would you ask that question?
On the one hand, you claim that you're interested in the truth about 9/11. On the other hand, you strongly imply that what you're really looking for is a bullshit swap meet and a combination support group/recruiting center for hopelessly deluded conspiracy theorists. You only want to "discuss" these "unanswered quesstions" with people who already agree with the unsubstantiated and often irrational answers offered by conspiracy theorists, and you treat any attempt to do otherwise as an attack.

This is a great example of why I always put "truth movement" in quotes.

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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. well stated as usual WS. n/t
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. So. there should only be one side to this?
Why do "truthers" continually question the motives of those who disagree with them?
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. To be proven wrong after taking a major world view position,
is to experience a kind of psychological death. Your whole world view crumbles and you're reduced to the shame of being exposed as a dupe for all to see. To prevent that collapse from happening, many will fight to the death for their convictions.

Wars are being fought to vindicate people's prejudices, in real life and on the net.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. That would seem to apply more to the 'truth movement' than to others.
Engineers often update their understanding. Investigation often leads to new findings. Science is used to this.
OTOH conspiracy theorists often either outright deny the facts or think up increasingly unlikely scenarios to avoid dropping their preconceived notions of 'truth'.

During the investigations into what happened several possibilities were posed that where then discarded as new evidence and ideas where presented.

Members of the 'truth movement' (which I fully understand is by no means a monolithic entity) have done things like propose nuclear blasts were used... but when presented with contradictory evidence... they simply refuse to believe it or start inventing new more bazaar weapons.
The same for no-plane advocates (any of the 4 crash sites), demolition theorists, etc. etc.

That is not to say the 'official' explanations are complete or completely correct. But your statement is much more applicable to the truth movement than to those who find particular theories silly.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Oh, bullshit. Where's this imaginary "proof"
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 11:54 AM by William Seger
There wouldn't need to be any "war" if the "truth movement" had a scrap of evidence to prove their claims. As it stands, the "war" against 9/11 conspiracism is just one battle in the much larger war against irrationality.
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BunnyBluetimes Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. There is so much information
missing between the WTC, Shanksville, and Pentagon reports you could drive a 757 through them!!! :mad:

no matter what I continue on my quest for truth through all criticism :kick:
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Just because you haven't found it....
doesn't mean it is "missing". Ask away.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. If you do a little research, you will find that some have very, very serious problems
that they have written about in other forums and contexts. Severe personal problems may make certain individuals try to project their insecurities upon others.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yet when you look at who has been tomb stoned in this forum
and the reasons why, exactly the same can be applied to the truth movement. When you have CTrs advancing the ideas of people with obvious mental issues like Judy Woods, you have to wonder.

Also look at all those tomb stoned for continually linking to hate sites - the link between RW haters and 911 truth is a dirty little secret that gets glossed over yet people like Christopher Bollyn and the haters at American Free Press were critical in starting many of the 911 myths.
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rhymeandreason Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. The Rendon Group, paid propagandists, liars
Actually there is nothing at all foolish about speculating that there are individuals on the net working to suppress and obscure discussions on what really happened on 9/11.

For example, the Rendon Group was hugely successful in helping the Bush administration sell the war.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/8798997/the_... /

The Man Who Sold the War
Meet John Rendon, Bush's general in the propaganda war

JAMES BAMFORD
Posted Nov 17, 2005 4:25 PM

excerpt:
The road to war in Iraq led through many unlikely places. One of them was a chic hotel nestled among the strip bars and brothels that cater to foreigners in the town of Pattaya, on the Gulf of Thailand.

On December 17th, 2001, in a small room within the sound of the crashing tide, a CIA officer attached metal electrodes to the ring and index fingers of a man sitting pensively in a padded chair. The officer then stretched a black rubber tube, pleated like an accordion, around the man's chest and another across his abdomen. Finally, he slipped a thick cuff over the man's brachial artery, on the inside of his upper arm.

Strapped to the polygraph machine was Adnan Ihsan Saeed al-Haideri, a forty-three-year-old Iraqi who had fled his homeland in Kurdistan and was now determined to bring down Saddam Hussein. For hours, as thin mechanical styluses traced black lines on rolling graph paper, al-Haideri laid out an explosive tale. Answering yes and no to a series of questions, he insisted repeatedly that he was a civil engineer who had helped Saddam's men to secretly bury tons of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. The illegal arms, according to al-Haideri, were buried in subterranean wells, hidden in private villas, even stashed beneath the Saddam Hussein Hospital, the largest medical facility in Baghdad.

It was damning stuff -- just the kind of evidence the Bush administration was looking for. If the charges were true, they would offer the White House a compelling reason to invade Iraq and depose Saddam. That's why the Pentagon had flown a CIA polygraph expert to Pattaya: to question al-Haideri and confirm, once and for all, that Saddam was secretly stockpiling weapons of mass destruction.

There was only one problem: It was all a lie. After a review of the sharp peaks and deep valleys on the polygraph chart, the intelligence officer concluded that al-Haideri had made up the entire story, apparently in the hopes of securing a visa.

The fabrication might have ended there, the tale of another political refugee trying to scheme his way to a better life. But just because the story wasn't true didn't mean it couldn't be put to good use. Al-Haideri, in fact, was the product of a clandestine operation -- part espionage, part PR campaign -- that had been set up and funded by the CIA and the Pentagon for the express purpose of selling the world a war. And the man who had long been in charge of the marketing was a secretive and mysterious creature of the Washington establishment named John Rendon.

Rendon is a man who fills a need that few people even know exists. Two months before al-Haideri took the lie-detector test, the Pentagon had secretly awarded him a $16 million contract to target Iraq and other adversaries with propaganda. One of the most powerful people in Washington, Rendon is a leader in the strategic field known as "perception management," manipulating information -- and, by extension, the news media -- to achieve the desired result. His firm, the Rendon Group, has made millions off government contracts since 1991, when it was hired by the CIA to help "create the conditions for the removal of Hussein from power." Working under this extraordinary transfer of secret authority, Rendon assembled a group of anti-Saddam militants, personally gave them their name -- the Iraqi National Congress -- and served as their media guru and "senior adviser" as they set out to engineer an uprising against Saddam. It was as if President John F. Kennedy had outsourced the Bay of Pigs operation to the advertising and public-relations firm of J. Walter Thompson.

"They're very closemouthed about what they do," says Kevin McCauley, an editor of the industry trade publication O'Dwyer's PR Daily. "It's all cloak-and-dagger stuff."

Although Rendon denies any direct involvement with al-Haideri, the defector was the latest salvo in a secret media war set in motion by Rendon. In an operation directed by Ahmad Chalabi -- the man Rendon helped install as leader of the INC -- the defector had been brought to Thailand, where he huddled in a hotel room for days with the group's spokesman, Zaab Sethna. The INC routinely coached defectors on their stories, prepping them for polygraph exams, and Sethna was certainly up to the task -- he got his training in the art of propaganda on the payroll of the Rendon Group. According to Francis Brooke, the INC's man in Washington and himself a former Rendon employee, the goal of the al-Haideri operation was simple: pressure the United States to attack Iraq and overthrow Saddam Hussein.


Can there be any question that Rendon and other similar enterprises have been involved in disinforming and manipulating the public's perception of 9/11?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. "Can there be any question that ... enterprises ... involved in disinforming and manipulating" No.
Not if you believe the NY Times:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"According to reporting by the New York Times, the Bush administration hired people as members of "Digital Outreach Teams" to blog and participate on internet forums to get the Bush administration's point of view out:"
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. "involved in disinforming"?
You mean like posting ridiculous shit about controlled demolition, Jews being behind 9/11, holographic planes on 9/11, no hijackers on 9/11, nukes & space rays blowing up the towers, and a missile or a substitute plane hitting the Pentagon in order to distract from conversations about the grave failure of the Bush admin(and airline industry) to prevent 9/11 from happening?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. or "ridiculous shit" about Bush being incompetent, but not evil?
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 02:03 PM by HamdenRice
or about imaginary talking gorillas demanding that millions of starving people be helped along in their famines toward their deaths?

You mean that kind of bat shit crazy shit?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Muddy the waters enough
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 02:02 PM by hack89
and even the truth gets obscured. Discrediting the "truth" movement would be an obvious tactic, don't you think? Or do you really think that every member of the movement is really on your side?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. He could also be manipulating the public's perception of the 9/11 Truth movement
by pushing ideas like CD, mini-nukes, holograms, no-planes, space rays, etc

What better way to muddy the waters and make it easy to discredit those that can prove that Bush committed impeachable offenses prior to 911?
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rhymeandreason Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Strategies
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 04:00 PM by rhymeandreason
No, counter-intelligence propaganda strategies would probably be more likely be to simply ridicule and glibly dismiss theories relating to cd, mini-nukes, no-planes, exotic weaponry and to characterize their advocates as being mentally unbalanced.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. What a sneaky strategy
... to blend in with the general population like that. :eyes:
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Pumpkinpatch Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. The bush mafia is full of shit
and whoever still believes 9/11 can be connected to Iraq is full of shit. Every month some asshole that was in on the 9/11 hoax slips up and says something dumber than the last. Google 9/11 commissioner slips up and says missile hit the Pentagon. They lied the entire 8 years they were in power. So Fuck Off whoever believes the shit they spew.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. Locking
Flamebait
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