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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:10 AM
Original message
"KSM" and his "Judge" in farce Gitmo "trial" - Latest news & saga to date
Why all those quotes in the headline? Read on...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...



Judge's Order Could Keep Public From Hearing Details of 9/11 Trials

By Peter Finn
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 7, 2009; Page A02

The military judge overseeing proceedings against five of the men accused of planning the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks signed an order designed to protect classified information that is so broad it could prevent public scrutiny of the most important trial at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to lawyers and human rights groups.

The protective order, which was signed on Dec. 18 by Judge Stephen R. Henley, an Army colonel, not only protects documents and information that have been classified by intelligence agencies, it also presumptively classifies any information "referring" to a host of agencies, including the CIA, the FBI and the State Department. The order also allows the court in certain circumstances to classify information already in the public domain and presumptively classifies "any statements made by the accused."

Three of the accused, including Khalid Sheik Mohammed,* the self-proclaimed mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, are defending themselves and, under the order, anything they say during the course of the trial could be shielded from the public.

"These rules turn the presumption of openness on its head, making what is perhaps the most important trial in American history presumptively closed to the public and the press," said Jennifer Daskal, senior counterterrorism counsel at Human Rights Watch. "If these rules applied in all cases, there would be no such thing as an open trial in America."

Late Monday, the judge appeared to have second thoughts about the breadth of the order...

SNIP




* The Infamous "KSM" - A Resume:

- Pakistani born, raised in Kuwait, received his college degrees in North Carolina, supposed uncle to WTC 1993 bomber Ramzi Yussef, supposed "number three" and operations chief of "al-Qaeda" until 2003.

- Supposedly interviewed confessing his "mastermind" role in 9/11 in April, May or June 2002 by Al Jazeera reporter Yosri Fouda, who has made various conflicting claims as to how and when the interview happened. Fouda claims to have captured "KSM's" confession on a video that, however, no longer exists, except for the audio track in which, Fouda says, the voices were distorted to prevent identification.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

:eyes:

- Reported killed in Sept. 11, 2002 Karachi raid by Pakistani security forces.

- Reported captured in Mar. 2003 Karachi raid. (Man who looks like Ron Jeremies photographed in undershirt.)



- Reported held at undisclosed locations by CIA for several years before being brought as a "high-value prisoner" to the US torture and illegal detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

- Reported tortured by waterboarding and other means during this time.

- Supposed tapes made of said interrogations under torture later reported as destroyed by CIA.

See "Which lie should we believe? CIA admits it destroyed evidence it said didn't exist" at http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2007120816312...

- During said interrogations under torture, provided "confessions" to "masterminding" 9/11 and a long string of terror attacks, in some of which he could not have had even a peripheral role; including the beheading of Daniel Pearl -- which the family of the killed journalist hotly dispute, and for which Omar Saeed Sheikh is still on death row in Pakistan.

- Interrogations under torture of "KSM" and two other Gitmo prisoners provided most details of alleged Sept. 11th attack planning by "al Qaeda" as presented in The 9/11 Commission Report. Fully one-quarter of all report citations lead back to the testimony supposedly extracted under torture.

See http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/30/...

"The NBC News analysis shows that more than one quarter of all footnotes in the 9/11 Report refer to CIA interrogations of al-Qaida operatives who were subjected to the now-controversial interrogation techniques. In fact, information derived from the interrogations is central to the Report’s most critical chapters, those on the planning and execution of the attacks. The analysis also shows - and agency and commission staffers concur - there was a separate, second round of interrogations in early 2004, done specifically to answer new questions from the Commission."

- The supposed "KSM" in US custody has never been presented in a legitimate court proceeding, public venue (unless you count the closed Gitmo "court,") or even photograph or video.

- Now presented in court drawings as heavily bearded, "KSM" or the actor playing him currently trying to put in a guilty plea at the ongoing unconstitutional military kangaroo tribunal for 9/11 being conducted at the US government's Gitmo torture and illegal detention center. (Sorry if the terms get unwieldy when one avoids the euphemisms.

- And so the "judge" (i.e., the military officer presiding over the farcical travesty of justice) now set to kill the release of the transcripts, even from this tightly-controlled proceeding.

- As though there would be anything to hide in there, given that agencies can present their hearsay summaries as evidence without needing to identify sources or have accusers or witnesses appear directly in the proceeding.

Remember kids, case closed!



From "Another take on the torture tapes," Dec. 12, 2007 at http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2007121211073...



Joseph Cannon in his blog of Dec. 10 recalls how past CIA claims of lost evidence later turned out to be untrue: "When the CIA tells you that a piece of evidence has been destroyed, you should react as skeptically as you would to the death of a Marvel supervillain."

One certainty is that the CIA lied, either when it told the 9/11 Commission that tapes of certain interrogations were never made, or else in its current claim that such tapes did exist but have been destroyed. This serves to underline the absurdity of accepting any CIA statements, any at all, especially about 9/11. By extension, the 9/11 Commission is yet again tainted for using the CIA's prisoner "transcripts" uncritically as a main source in its report; whether out of cynicism or unforgivable naivete is irrelevant.

It's near impossible to tell on how many levels the CIA can be (and probably is) lying about the torture tapes. They may be lying about having certain prisoners in the first place, about who they really are and what, if anything, they really did. What did these prisoners tell interrogators and was it true? When conscience or the law finally bites, can the torturer at least claim the information was good?

Were real interrogations recorded or were fake ones played for the camera? Were tapes destroyed or merely "disappeared," and either way, when and why? Cannon wonders whether the motive is to conceal the involvement of foreign agencies, like those of Israel or Saudi Arabia, in interrogations of U.S.-held prisoners. We wonder if some of the tapes will make the constructed nature of the official 9/11 fable a little too obvious. In the age of the Secret State we're all forced to play psychic: What do they want to hide?


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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Then there was this...
A repulsive effort by ABC to play atrocity as comedy and justify torture

(pointed out by sabra when this thread ran on GD...)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/09/how-the-cia...



How the CIA Broke the 9/11 Attacks Mastermind

September 13, 2007 4:09 PM

When Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was strapped down to the water-board, he felt humiliated -- not by the treatment but by the fact that a woman, a red-headed CIA supervisor, was allowed to witness the spectacle, a former intelligence officer told ABC News.

The al Qaeda mastermind, known as KSM, stubbornly held out for about two minutes -- far longer than any of the other "high-value" terror targets who were subjected to the technique, the harshest from a list of six techniques approved for use by the CIA and Bush administration lawyers, sources said.

Then KSM started talking, in idiomatic English he learned as a high school foreign exchange student and polished at a North Carolina college in the 1980s, sources said.



Supposedly the humiliation of the "redhead" as witness (why is this of all details disclosed?) broke him like nothing else.

Funny how the "KSM" in the transcripts today ain't so "polished." You can chalk that up to time and torture, of course, or perhaps to his desire to play his captors by giving them pidgin.

Among the many other choice bits:



A current CIA official says that KSM actually told interrogators the only reason he confessed was because of the water-boarding. But what if that one episode of water-boarding KSM had not occurred?

SNIP



I suppose the article gets points for being one of the few not to mention Jack Bauer in what follows!



"KSM sat in his cell in Poland, writing poetry in English, writing letters to the president and to the head of the CIA, and debating the merits of Christianity and Islam with his captor.

SNIP

And just yesterday, an intelligence source told ABC News that the dapper man behind the most successful terror plot against America was not rumpled and disheveled when he was apprehended. He was as well-kept as ever. But the CIA, conscious of the propaganda value of appearance, messed his hair and pulled his shirt from his pants, leaving us with the image of KSM we have today, and according to days of NSA intercepts, leaving his fellow al Qaeda terrorists chagrined over the changes to their esteemed colleague.

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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Yeah, a blonde would have been OK
but a fiery red-head was just too much for him.

Really WTF writes this stuff, Dashiell Hammett?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. ""KSM" or the actor playing him currently"
Statements like this is why I just can't take you seriously, Jack.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. So if you know either way, what's your clearance?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I hope you have chocolate in that world.
I'd hate for anyone to miss out on chocolate.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. The saddest authoritarians are those who think they're free
Powerless to censor, they reach to ridicule.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Weep not for me. Weep for yourself and your lack of chocolate.
No, all that brown stuff you're shoveling isn't chocolate.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Same insult twice in a row? Repeaters lose.
You disappoint me. I deserve a worthier antagonist than this.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. No, you don't.
The council of evildoers reviewed your case last year and demoted you to a class III antagonist. boloboffin (who is class IIa) is filling in until we can get our Singapore internet center up and running.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Now, you, at least, seem to have a funny bone...
but how did it get stuck in there?

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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I love Matt Groening.
The funny bone is left over from the last time I had an architect for dinner. I like to keep things there - for later, you know.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Perhaps Barack Obama or the actor playing him would disagree.
Do you have evidence that an actor isn't playing him? How do you know?

How do you know that all those pictures you've seen of Dubai aren't a stage set?

Please stop being silly.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Do you believe in new and improved mouthwash? Dianetics, perhaps?
Edited on Fri Jan-09-09 10:07 PM by JackRiddler
If you want to take it there...

given the longstanding tolerance and cancerous growth of a privatized, black-budget, multipolar, secret and utterly corrupt para-state immune from oversight and investigation...

and given that para-state's long record of demonstrating that no crime, no lie, no murder or even genocide is morally off-limits if it is judged as worthy under its demented "national security" calculus...

...a radical universal doubt program has its temptations; but there's nothing suggesting, let alone requiring, the lengths your absurd comparisons suggest.

Just another strawman.

"KSM" is as packaged a product as anything the Office of Special Plans or WHIG produced. Perhaps you're the one who believes ads promising that Mouthwash X will make you sexy? How do you know that Jesus won't save you, or that L. Ron Hubbard didn't talk to aliens?

Perhaps you missed the part where "KSM" was reported killed in a Sept. 11, 2002 Karachi shootout, later "captured" nevertheless, then presented to the public in a deceptive way as a propaganda tool (by the CIA's admission to ABC), then tortured at undisclosed locations and held there for two years, then "confessed" to crimes he definitely did not commit, recorded during interrogations -- oh, wait, not recorded during interrogations -- oh wait, recorded but the recordings were destroyed,

etc. etc.

Are you suggesting any parallels in that story to the public and in many ways exemplary life of the president-elect?

And now the spectacle of your supposedly constitutional republic holding a military kangaroo court with secret evidence and testimony, absent witnesses and suppressed transcripts, justified by the doctrine that this is war and therefore the commander in chief is a unitary executive who can make and break laws as he pleases. This doesn't concern you, but me saying you know nothing about "KSM" does.

You know nothing about "KSM." You don't have the clearance to know. This should make you angry at a government that expects allegiance to its implausible truths solely on faith, or to the corporate media moutpiece for the faith. But you prefer to condemn those wh o commit lese majesty.

Why, I don't know, since it's so... superfluous.

State and media already amp out the official reality all the time, and do a much better job of damage control when their stories are doubted; they hardly need you to defend them. Perhaps it's simply that you so deeply identify with their power, that you feel its crisis as your own? That would be sad, not meaning that I'd weep, but in the sense of "pathetic."

Sophistry is one thing, my dear man, but you have to try. It has to actually mimic logic to mean anything.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. :rofl:
So because I think that guy is indeed KSM, I'm an authoritarian zombie mindlessly trying to gatekeep you away from spreading the truth.

Like I say, I hope you have chocolate in your world.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. It doesn't matter who you think that guy is.
You don't know. You're not allowed to know, in the way that you are allowed to know about far less important criminal cases. That's the point. And you apparently don't care. It seems more important to you to insult me and misrepresent me. This is puzzling, since anyone reading your falsehoods about what I said can read what I actually said one inch above or below your post.

Remember: "Last one to post in this thread wins!"
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Do you truly blame anyone
Edited on Sat Jan-10-09 02:16 AM by noise
for being cynical after over seven years of dealing with the post 9/11 Bush Co. domestic psy-op program?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Who is a cynic?
Edited on Sat Jan-10-09 08:19 AM by JackRiddler
Cynicism is a philosophy and attitude.

Attitude is not what makes the "KSM" stories dubious and unacceptable as evidence with regard to Sept. 11th.

Rather:
- inherent implausibility of the stories;
- conflicting reports (often from same source);
- context of 9/11 lies and cover-up generally;
- track record and known conflicts-of-interest of the sources;
- withholding of records and expectation one must believe on faith;
- atmosphere of fear (questioning encourages more "terrorism");
- admitted use of torture;
- admitted destruction of evidence, although even this may be a lie;
- illegal and unconstitutional show trials with secret evidence and absent witnesses;
- defining nature of 9/11 as a cause for war and positively absurd terror policies (i.e., a whole system that cannot afford to have the official story topple)

...

Under these circumstances, it's sweetly reasonable to doubt, it shows sound mental health and self-confidence. It's highly cynical to uncritically propagate and even enforce faith in the "KSM" story.

The boy in the story who said the emperor was naked was exuberant, not cynical.
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I agree
A better word would be distrustful.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Good job of stepping back into JackRiddler-approved nomenclature.
Baaaaaaaaaaa.
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. He was right
There is reason to distrust the government's claims in regard to KSM. Such distrust isn't cynical but is rather attributable to the Bush administration's track record.

Would you have us believe that questions about KSM are unfounded? Is it unpatriotic to question the government's conduct?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Oh, I see. You've been reading Spiderman again, right?


The story revolves around mild-mannered photographer Peter Parker spotting two Obamas on inauguration day. He *spoiler alert* transforms into Spiderman. Can he pick the REAL Obama and save the day? At the risk of giving away the ending, yes. Yes he can.




http://blogs.news.com.au/starsnsnipes/index.php/news/co...

Apropos, I hear the National Archives are about to finally declassify one of the most important documents cited in The 9/11 Commission Report, which should settle many of the remaining questions: the issue in which Spidey captured KSM!

Too bad the one when he waterboarded him went missing.

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Bryan Sacks Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. Yes! so SILLY! All things are exactly as they appear!
And the suggestion that a person may not be who we are being told he is (And no, you can't see him, talk to him and neither can anyone else) is equivalent to suggesting the moon landing was faked!


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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. The family members observing his trial in Guantanamo Bay have seen him.
You guys are HYSTERICAL. You both (Jack and Bryan) just keep flirting with rationality, even manifesting it, and then you go haywire like this and the facade shows its cracks.

People have seen KSM, trustworthy people you can trust. The lawyers they keep rejecting have talked to them. The Red Cross has access to him. Is the International Red Cross in on it as well?

:rofl:

Have you guys thought about taking this tag team comedy act on the road?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Are you saying these family members knew "KSM" before his "capture"?
That's a hell of a conspiracy allegation! How dare you?!

Of course that's not what you mean, but what the fuck: boloboffin lives by the strawman, so why can't I shake one too?

And I do understand why you need your emoticons to do the laughing for you!

So, as you say, a couple of Pentagon-cleared relatives of Sept. 11 victims were allowed into the gallery for the Gitmo tribunal, separated from the courtroom by six-inch glass. And they saw a bearded guy there, whom they presumably had never seen before in their lives; as I said, "KSM or the actor playing him."

How could they know that this "KSM" really was the mastermind, that the story he told under torture was true, that this was indeed the real "KSM," or that he even has the same mind as he did in 2001, given the transformations and traumas people undergo when the CIA bundles them into a bag and keeps them in a dungeon for a few years? (If you bother to answer that, then this time please without ignoring the long list of "KSM" story absurdities, contradictions and known lies detailed in this thread and in the 9/11 Timeline at historycommons.org.)

Okay, okay, we know this isn't about logic or standards of evidence, and this time you'll come back with a bigger laugh icon, or throw in the phone book again. At the moment, it's about you using the relatives as human shields for justifying your belief, against any reason, in the government's faith-based bullshit.

You keep condemning me and appealing to ridicule for supposedly saying it is an actor, though of course anyone who can read knows that's not what I said. You're the one who claims the true identity of the supposed captured "KSM" person seen by the relatives can be known. You're the one who offers only ridicule as an avoidance mechanism, against the many, many reasons cited here to exclude the government's KSM stories as evidence of anything, regardless what the truth may actually be.

How sad for you!

:cry: :cry: :cry:
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Unbelievable - that is EXACTLY what you said!
You said "KSM or the actor playing him". YOU SAID THAT. And now you're down here denying that you said it.

Unbelievable. All we need now is some no-planer to chime in on how the two of us are working together to discredit all 9/11 CT and my joy will be complete.

Answer me this, Jack: HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THIS PERSON WAS ACTUALLY TORTURED? Were you there? Did you take pictures? What's your evidence? Where does it come from? How do you know it's reliable? HOW DO YOU KNOW????

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You have completely lost any hope of credibility and it is because of YOUR OWN IDIOTIC POSTING.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yes, that is exactly what I said, but apparently you still haven't understood it.
First, what did I say in the post to which you are replying?

as I said, "KSM or the actor playing him."


That doesn't sound like a denial that I said such a thing. In fact, it sounds like a repeat.

Hmmmm...

Hmmmm...



Perhaps you need to re-watch "Conjunction Junction," or be introduced to the logical concept that in the language of Boolean operators is rendered as OR.

Hint: It's not AND.

Though there's hope for you yet, as this excellent passage suggests:

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THIS PERSON WAS ACTUALLY TORTURED? Were you there? Did you take pictures? What's your evidence? Where does it come from? How do you know it's reliable? HOW DO YOU KNOW????


I don't. Neither do you.

Very good. Excellent. You may get it yet.

Though you've once again avoided addressing any details, suggesting to third parties reading this that you don't actually have an argument beyond repeat-to-ridicule. In fact, at this point it's literally all you've got left: repeat what I said and add LOL.

I've got no problems with that.

Biggest emoticon wins!



The "KSM" stories as told don't cohere internally, the sources like the CIA and Fouda contradict themselves and have a history of lying, the 9/11 Commission saw nothing except printed summaries of supposed transcripts, the military tribunal doesn't actually allow anything that would be considered evidence in a real court. These are likely not coincidences. They suggest a pattern.

Either there really was a "KSM" (mastermind or not) who survived his 2002 killing and was thus captured in 2003, who was tortured ( = invalidation of "confession")... or there wasn't ( = CIA lying). Either tapes of this interrogation were made ( = CIA lied to 9/11 Com and later destroyed evidence illegally) or, as the CIA said originally, no tapes were made ( = who da fuck knows who what?).

These points are very easy to understand, and as badly as you seem to want to obfuscate, crowing doesn't do it.

Tell you what, as your next strategem, why not repeat your famous call to torture with dildoes any 9/11 whistleblowers who come forward.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

But that reminds me why in one sense I'm a liar. Cos, let the record show, this is sort of what I'm doing to you (in a purely verbal, electronic and legal form).

My motivation here really stinks.

I like coming back and slapping you around, and I know you'll always return for more, even though it's completely superfluous.

I am a mean and low person for deriving enjoyment out of this, and for doing it at the cost of time best spent elsewhere, to the detriment of myself and others.

I'll be focusing on this failing during my meditation today, seek a way to forgive myself and to love you. (Don't worry, that's love in the abstract-spiritual way; like "my neighbor as myself.")

I love boloboffin.

O8)

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. OK, now you say you said it. Before, you say you didn't say it at all. Make up your mind.
Also, quit making factually inaccurate statements about my past posts. Your description of my infamous post is completely backwards. My infamous threat was to 9/11 whistleblowers who REFUSE to come forward, not those that DO come forward. You have the link to the post. Anyone can read it and see that's exactly what I said.

But it certainly is more fun for you and other CT advocates to pretend I said something more heinous than I actually did, in your ongoing quest to smear and attack me. Question: why make repeated factually inaccurate statements about something that is bad enough on its face? Why twist it to be even worse, beyond the realm of evidence to prove?

It's exactly what you do with Bush, so I shouldn't be surprised that you use the same illegitimate tactics against me. Blowing things into ridiculous proportion is just your M.O.

Me, I prefer to deal with what you actually say. You tried denying it, but it's right there. The very fact that you are seriously contemplating the notion of an actor playing KSM right now is RIDICULOUS. It gutshoots your credibility. Yet you yammer on, expecting this ludicrous notion to be taken seriously just because you surround it with a lot of deep-politics mumbo-jumbo. You've got some silly Spider-Man plot running around your head about KSM. What happens when they execute this "actor"? You know and I know and everybody knows it's coming. Is that part of the contract? Could the actor maybe get SAG involved to spare his life?

And the issue of torture -- talk about gutshooting your credibility. One honest-to-God reason to detest everything Bush stands for is his violations of the Geneva conventions about torture, and you're willing to promote the idea that it's all hocus-pocus! It's all a charade! Unless you think the "actor" was actually waterboarded -- but then why? Why waterboard someone you know doesn't have any of the answers? You have singlehandedly undermined a key element in the case against Bush. All serious-minded progressive activists should shun you and your rank idiotic postings about "actors". I'm really glad you're willing to hold out the option that it's really KSM. THAT DOESN'T MATTER. You're also pushing for the "all the world's a stage" version, where the CIA pretends that they've got this person, this person who has friends, who has relatives, who has other associates, all able to step up and swear oaths that this person is an imposter... Jesus God, meditation is not going to help this level of commitment to fantasy, Jack. Swap the T for a C.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Excellent reply. nt
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-11-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Make us some rain JackRiddler, make the truth grow tall




Rainmaker, rainmaker The sky is gray just by the
touch of your hand Rainmaker, rainmaker Make me
some rain, make all my crops grow tall


Rainmaker, rainmaker The sky is gray, the ground
is so hard It's been cracked by the sun Rainmaker,
you know my work's never done



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK1k4y0EttQ


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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. a look at the KSM capture
For almost any single facet of the capture, there are two or three different reported versions.
http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essayks...

Bizarre, to say the least.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Good work - many hours of work! - by History Commons as usual...
Hope everyone follows that link, here are a couple of paragraphs...



Was Mohammed Actually Arrested in Rawalpindi?

One doesn’t have to dig deep to find contradictions to the standard story of Mohammed’s arrest. The Guardian article, “Raided Family of Microbiologist Denies Official Version of al-Qaeda Arrests,” details what witnesses saw when the police came. {Guardian, 3/3/03 (B)} The family in the house claims that at 3 a.m., around 20 to 25 armed police and intelligence officers kicked open the door and burst into the house. “They dragged away Ahmed and held his wife and children at gunpoint for an hour as they ransacked the house, according to Ahmed’s sister Qudsia. ‘They left clothes and books strewn on the floor and took a bundle of dollar bills which were locked in a cupboard,’ she said. ‘The bedrooms were turned upside down, one door upstairs was broken and they took the new computer,’ she said. At no point, the family say, was Mohammed or any other man in the house. The agents did not even ask about them. ‘The only people in the house were my brother, his wife and their kids,’ Qudsia said. ‘I have absolutely no idea why the police came here.’ ” {Guardian, 3/3/03 (B)} The brother, Omar Qudoos, gave a similar account. He added that there also was a guard outside. “The police pounded on the gate and then they rushed through. There was some firing, but no one was hurt and then they beat the guard and broke the lock on the front door.” {AP, 3/2/03} Other articles reported roughly the same account. {AP, 3/2/03 (B), Australian Broadcasting Corp., 3/2/03, New York Times, 3/3/03}
The FBI says this is Khalid Shaikh Mohammed after his capture. {AP}


Other arrests of major al-Qaeda figures haven’t been accompanied by these types of contradictory accounts from eyewitnesses. However, most accounts of Mohammed’s arrest have mentioned the eyewitness reports only in passing. Also generally mentioned only in passing are doubts that Mohammed was arrested at all. As one report put it, “Some analysts questioned whether Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had actually been arrested on Saturday and speculated he may have been held for some time. ‘I think he was arrested several months ago in the shoot-out in Karachi,’ one expert on Pakistan who declined to be identified said.” {Australian Broadcasting Corp., 3/2/03} MSNBC reported, “Some analysts questioned whether Mohammed was actually arrested Saturday, speculating that he may have been held for some time and that the news was made public when it was in the interests of the United States and Pakistan” {MSNBC, 3/3/03} (also see {Reuters, 3/3/03 (E), BBC, 3/4/03}). One Guardian reporter said of his capture, “The story appears to be almost entirely fictional.” {Guardian, 3/6/03}

Well respected journalist Tariq Ali has serious doubts that Mohammed has been arrested: “Who he is and how he was captured is still shrouded in mystery. … But as to who he is and what his exact role is, we are dependent totally on intelligence sources, as all the newspapers indicated today in the Western world.” {Australian Broadcasting Corp., 3/3/03} When asked if a different man might have been arrested, Ali responded, “Well, we do not know. At the moment we have absolutely no evidence at all. Reports from Pakistan are coming out from what are described as Taliban sources, i.e. members of the former government in Afghanistan who are now around in Pakistan, who are denying that he has been captured and saying, ‘We know exactly where the guy they’re claiming to have captured is,’ and until he is produced before a court of law or interviewed or allowed access to the press or lawyers, we will not know who he is.” {Australian Broadcasting Corp., 3/3/03}




SNIP

http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essayks...

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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Jack....
you know :yourock:!!
Thanks for your efforts at exposing the bullshit.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. EXCELLENT
as always


Thanks Jack
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Thank you.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-11-09 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
34. Latest: "TERRORISTS TO THE BONE"
.

Last night on my way home I saw this run by on the famous Times Square news scroll:

9/11 MASTERMINDS SAY THEY'RE 'TERRORISTS TO THE BONE'

Or at least "they" (whoever they are, and supposedly after years of torture) say so in a joint statement inexplicably ordered to be released by the former judge of the tribunal that Obama suspended...

It won't surprise me if the next step is a Stammheim prison job. (A reference to the 1977 suicides or 'suiciding' of the Baader-Meinhof leadership at Stammheim prison, though one survived and hasn't spoken of the night since.)

Larisa Alexandrovna, DU's LalaRaw, deconstructs this latest idiocy in psywar ably, so I don't have to...

http://www.atlargely.com/2009/03/we-are-being-spoonfed-...

Larisa Alexandrovna

March 10, 2009
We are being spoon-fed stupid again...

Can someone explain to me how 5 suspected members of Al Qaeda (although there is no question regarding KSM) suddenly got their own PR machine from inside Gitmo and at the hands of a military judge, not to mention getting a world stage through which to frighten Americans some more? And the media? Well, they are too well versed is stupid to ask any sensible questions:

"Five Guantanamo prisoners accused in the September 11, 2001, terror attacks on the U.S. staunchly defended their actions, calling the operation "blessed" and "great" and the accusations against them "badges of honor."

"You are the last nation that has the right to speak about civilians and killing civilians," the five said in a response this month to the U.S. government's war crimes charges.

"You are professional criminals, with all the meaning the words carry," the response said. "Therefore, we will treat you the same. We will attack you, just like you have attacked us, and whomever initiated the attacks is the guilty party."

The six-page response from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who plotted the attacks, and four others castigates the actions of the United States and its allies in the Middle East and calls the United States "the terrorist country number one in the world."'


Okay, now someone explain the following to me:

1. How did 5 alleged Al Qaeda members come together to form this statement, given that they are being held each in isolation at Gitmo? Are they allowed to meet and discuss various topics, including their alleged joy at bombing the United States? Somehow I don't think so. We know that some of their own attorneys were not even aware of this filing or what it said. So was this done telepathically?

2. And how is it that this filing was accepted by the court when some of the attorneys for the 5 men were not even aware that such a thing was going to be filed? Take a gander:

"The ACLU is angry that a military judge has accepted an incendiary legal pleading filed by five 9/11 suspects, despite President Obama's order stopping the Guantanamo military commissions and even though attorneys for some of the defendants were unaware of it."

Now stay with me here. 5 alleged Al Qaeda members issue a statement of guilt, an incendiary statement rejoicing at the lost American lives of those attacks 7 years back, through a filing with the court. This filing is accepted by the court despite some of the attorneys not being made aware that this was going to be filed or what was going to be declared on behalf of their clients. Moreover, defying President Obama's ruling putting a halt on all Gitmo military commissions, the judge on the case not only accepted this filing, but also released it to the public.

SNIP - FOLLOW LINK FOR MORE!

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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. If KSM confessed after TWO MINUTES
of water boarding then why has he been holed up for seven years?

If water boarding is so efficient then surely they should have had all the information they needed to convict him years ago.

Or did they keep hold of him so they could sporadically tell him what they wanted him to say? (For those oh-so-handy terror alerts).

:shrug:
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-12-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. He had so much to confess to...
Confessing and confessing and confessing!

Check it out here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
38. LATEST BREAKING: NY judge says CIA can keep 9/11 videotape info secret
(The always reliable Judge Hellerstein, who's handled all of the 9/11 cases brought in New York until now.)

Source: AP

NEW YORK A judge cited national security concerns in ruling Wednesday that the CIA does not have to release hundreds of documents related to the destruction of videotapes of Sept. 11 detainee interrogations that used harsh methods.

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein said he believed he had an obligation to let the CIA director decide what should be released when it pertains to methods used to make uncooperative detainees divulge information.

"The need to keep confidential just how the CIA and other government agencies obtained their information is manifest, and that has to do with the identities of the people who gave information and who were questioned to obtain information," the judge said from the bench.

He ruled after reviewing in private 65 of roughly 580 documents sought by the American Civil Liberties Union, including 53 field reports to CIA headquarters about interrogations.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5igLwH...

LBN link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. "Thanks" for this "update".
Consider me "shocked."
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-01-09 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
40. More news: Now here's a judge willing to release truth about the CIA & Gitmo...
The CIA willing to torture people into confessing things they didn't do? Impossible!


http://counterpunch.org/worthington10012009.html

October 1, 2009
Judge Confirms an Innocent Man Tortured to Make False Confessions
A Truly Shocking Gitmo Story

By ANDY WORTHINGTON

In four years of researching and writing about Guantnamo, I have become used to uncovering shocking information, but for sheer cynicism, I am struggling to think of anything that compares to the revelations contained in the unclassified ruling in the habeas corpus petition of Fouad al-Rabiah, a Kuwaiti prisoner whose release was ordered last week by Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly (PDF). In the ruling, to put it bluntly, it was revealed that the U.S. government tortured an innocent man to extract false confessions and then threatened him until he obligingly repeated those lies as though they were the truth.

The background: lies hidden in plain sight for five years

To establish the background to this story, it is necessary for me to return to my initial response to the ruling a week last Friday, before these revelations had been made public, when, based on what I knew of the case from the publicly available documents, I explained that I was disappointed that the Obama administration had pursued a case against al-Rabiah, alleging that he was a fundraiser for Osama bin Laden and had run a supply depot for al-Qaeda in Afghanistans Tora Bora mountains, for two particular reasons.

The first was because a CIA analyst had interviewed al-Rabiah at Guantnamo in the summer of 2002 and had concluded that he was an innocent man caught at the wrong time and in the wrong place; and the second was because, although al-Rabiah had said that he had met bin Laden and had been present in the Tora Bora mountains, he had provided an innocent explanation for both occurrences. He had, he said, been introduced to bin Laden on a trip to Afghanistan to investigate proposals for a humanitarian aid mission, and he had been at Tora Bora -- and compelled to man a supply depot -- because he was one of numerous civilians caught up with soldiers of al-Qaeda and the Taliban as he tried to flee the chaos of Afghanistan for Pakistan, and had been compelled to run the depot by a senior figure in al-Qaeda.

These appeared to be valid explanations, especially as al-Rabiah, a 42-year old father of four children, had no history of any involvement with militancy or terrorism, and had, instead, spent 20 years at a management desk job at Kuwait Airways, and had an ownership interest in some health clubs. Moreover, he had a history of legitimate refugee relief work, having taken a six-month approved leave of absence from work in 1994-95 to do relief work in Bosnia, having visited Kosovo with the Kuwaiti Red Crescent in 1998, and having made a trip to Bangladesh in 2000 to delivery kidney dialysis fluid to a hospital in the capital, Dhaka.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. Kicked for renewed relevance following Holder's announcement today...
that the "KSM" who's been under treatment at Gitmo all these years is ready for a civilian trial in New York.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Check out the newly released "KSM" audition photos.
Very professional stuff!

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. And here's the list of crimes "KSM" reportedly confessed while at Gitmo.
List of "Khalid Sheikh Mohamed" Confessions Updated at 7:00 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Shaikh_Mohammed#Lis ...

List of Confessions

All of these plots can also be referred to as 'Second Oplan Bojinka'.

The February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City
A failed "shoe bomber" operation
The October 2002 attack in Kuwait
The nightclub bombing in Bali, Indonesia
A plan for a "second wave" of attacks on major U.S. landmarks to be set in the spring or summer of 2002 after the 9/11 attacks, which includes more hijackings of commercial airlines and having them flown into various buildings in the U.S. including the Library Tower in Los Angeles, the Sears Tower in Chicago, the Columbia Center in Seattle and the Empire State Building in New York
Plots to attack oil tankers and U.S. naval ships in the Straits of Hormuz, the Straits of Gibraltar and in Singapore
A plan to blow up the Panama Canal
Plans to assassinate Jimmy Carter
A plot to blow up suspension bridges in New York City
A plan to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago with burning fuel trucks
Plans to "destroy" Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf and Big Ben in London
A planned attack on "many" nightclubs in Thailand
A plot targeting the New York Stock Exchange and other U.S. financial targets
A plan to destroy buildings in Eilat, Israel
Plans to destroy U.S. embassies in Indonesia, Australia and Japan in 2002.
Plots to destroy Israeli embassies in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines and Australia
Surveying and financing an attack on an Israeli El-Al flight from Bangkok
Sending several "mujahideen" into Israel to survey "strategic targets" with the intention of attacking them
The November 2002 suicide bombing of a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya
The failed attempt to shoot down an Israeli passenger jet leaving Mombasa airport in Kenya
Plans to attack U.S. targets in South Korea
Providing financial support for a plan to attack U.S., British and Jewish targets in Turkey
Surveillance of U.S. nuclear power plants in order to attack them
A plot to attack NATO's headquarters in Europe
Planning and surveillance in a 1995 plan (the "Bojinka Operation") to bomb 12 American passenger jets
The planned assassination attempt against then-U.S. President Bill Clinton during a mid-1990s trip to the Philippines.
"Shared responsibility" for a plot to kill Pope John Paul II
Plans to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf
An attempt to attack a U.S. oil company in Sumatra, Indonesia, "owned by the Jewish former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger"
The beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl

Source: BBC

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's '31 plots'

The alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, has admitted his role in them, and 30 other terror plots around the world, in a hearing at Guantanamo Bay, the Pentagon has said. According to partial transcript of the closed-door hearing, released by the US defence department, the suspect confessed to the following attacks or plots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6452789.stm
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Is that from his portfolio?
or a publicity photo for the pilot project he is working on?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-11 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #42
51. bump
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Hey Jack, have you posted a summary or any of this in GD? nt
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BDJUSA Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-22-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
46. KSM
KSM is just a patsy that was tortered and lied about his ivolvement with the 911 attacks.
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icee2 Donating Member (261 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
47. Latest quote from Paul C. Roberts (in today's C.P.) about the case

snip

"If, as Taylor writes, the governments evidence is so strong, why wasnt Mohammed tried years ago? Why was he held for years and tortured--apparently water boarded 183 times--in violation of US law and the Geneva Conventions? How can the US government put a defendant on trial when its treatment of him violates US statutory law, international law, and every precept of the US legal code? Mohammed has been treated as if he were a captive of Hitlers Gestapo or Stalins KGB. And now we are going to finish him off in a show trial.

If the barbaric treatment Mohammed has received during his captivity hasnt driven him insane, how do we know he hasnt decided to confess in order to obtain for himself for evermore the glory of the deed? How many people can claim to have outwitted the CIA, the National Security Agency and all 16 US intelligence agencies, NORAD, the Pentagon, the National Security Council, airport security (four times on one morning), US air traffic control, the US Air Force, the military Joint Chiefs of Staff, all the neocons, Mossad, and even the supposedly formidable Dick Cheney?"


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newlib Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
48. this whole 9.11 thing needs to be re-examined. too much

contradictory information about every aspect of it.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
49. New thread: "Ashcroft, Tenet, Rumsfeld warned 9/11 Commission about 'line' it shouldn't cross"
Edited on Wed Mar-17-10 11:41 AM by JackRiddler
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-17-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Have you ever been to "Guantanamo"?
How do you know "Cuba" even exists?

:rofl:
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-12 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
52. kick
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-12 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
53. The essential MSNBC article is now offline, but here's an archive...
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