So, for those of you who ridicule "conspiracy theories,"

[JDPriestly]

how do you like the torture memos? Just a few bad applies, eh? Just a coincidence? Yeah, sure.

The history of the world, especially as it concerns empires, is the history of vast conspiracies. The assassination of Caesar, the reigns of many of the subsequent emperors, the Borgias, the papacy, the English monarchy, the Habsburg monarchy. Over and over, incredible conspiracies were carried out. And you think it doesn't happen here.

It is no coincidence that George W. Bush's father was head of the CIA and that John McCain's father worked in Naval intelligence. If you want to know who really runs this country, our press, our elections and everything else, don't ridicule conspiracy theories. If you still think that the assassinations in rapid succession of John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King were just coincidences, please think again.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/17/16130/2622/376/...

[Skinner]

1. You convinced me.

There was no airplane at the pentagon.

[Snarkturian Clone]

2. Does this mean we can link to Alex Jones sites now?

Sometimes I question whether or not it was wrong to say "To all CTer's: GTFO of my party" in my 1000th post, but I see stuff like this OP and say "oh yeah...".

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[orleans]

7. OMG! bookmarking! (& ibtl) n/t

[JDPriestly]

12. You don't have to automatically believe every conspiracy theory, but

you can't automatically disbelieve them either. The knee-jerk reaction here on DU, and I'm including myself as a DUer, is to react with skepticism to weird theories. That's good. That's normal. But we should not refuse to entertain theories, even conspiracy theories, and we should not refuse to go where the evidence leads.

Some of the most important and earth-shattering scientific discoveries began with a crazy idea, a theory for which there was little known evidence.

Frankly, I am amazed at how blatantly the Bush gang met and discussed the details of torture sessions -- in the White House. But then, I was such a skeptic, I did not believe that the Bush gang would lie to us to go into Iraq. So, when I preach tolerance of conspiracy theories, I'm admonishing myself to a great extent. Evidence, yes. Closed-mindedness, no.

And as for UFOs, I shall maintain my skeptic stance for the moment -- but with the humble knowledge that I could be wrong. But as for the Bush administration, I shall believe the worst from now on. I'm still cautious about the MIHOP theories. I just do not want to discover that they are true. But, as I said, I'm not going to ridicule the MIHOPpers any more. If Bush and his gang are willing to conspire to torture prisoners, they'll do anything. And they will justify it as being in the interests of the U.S. What monstors.

[wildbilln864]

73. The official Bush/PNAC version of 911....

is one of the most unbelievable conspiracy theories there is!

[truedelphi]

125. It took a friend of mine six long hours

To convince me of MIHOP.

He patiently set up the URL that showed the collapse of Building 7 at the WTC.

It would play, and I would say, "That doesn't prove anything."

Then he woud play it again.

I knew what the video was proving the first time I saw it.

But I couldn't or wouldn't admit that an Administration would do this. It was just not acceptable that they could do this.

But now that we know that they lied to get us into the War, and that they held the meetings they held on torture inside the White House, I realize that I can feel good about myself.

All because a friend came over one day and spent six long hours convincing me.

[defendandprotect]

133. I think subconsciously, we all understand the non-reality of the 9/11 videos . . .!!!

Since when does a plane meld into a building -- ??

A plane crashes into a building -- !!!

Glad you "got it" and I'd say it isn't unusual --

Americans are taught to trust their government --

But government is only like a typewriter -- it depends on who's doing

the writing!

[defendandprotect]

132. So you didn't believe that Bush would lie to start war in ME?

What woke you up on that one?

On the other hand, I see a fairly good level of tolerance in "General" for 9/11 LIHOP and MIHOP.
It's when the thread hits the dungeon that it gets exposed to people who are solely here to
attack it.

Re UFO's . . . while I've never seen one, except on film - I certainly find the notion of other
life in the universe not unlikely. Also, 1,500 people a year -- for the past 50 years -- claim
to have been abducted.

One of my favorite researchers on this was Dr. John Mack/Harvard.
Many pilots -- both civilian and military -- have come forward to relate their experiences.
Many military people have done the same. People from all walks of life have these experiences
and I see no signs that they are all hallucinating.

In Roswell, we see again that citizens were threatened, yet the stories survived and have been heard. Again, I see no signs that a huge number of residents in that area are hallucinating.



"A belief system is the end not the beginning of all knowledge."

[FiveGoodMen]

14. I certainly haven't seen a picture of one. And that's strange.

[Lerkfish]

15. with this snarky comment, are you trying to say the torture memos do not exist?

or merely making the point that one conspiracy proven does not prove all conspiracies?

[Beam Me Up]

30. Actually there were three planes at the Pentagon.

There's no conclusive evidence that any of them hit the building, though, or that any one of them was AA Flight 77 -- and that is now demonstrable fact.

You know the FBI and the NTSB did not positively identify the aircraft wreckage, right?

[seemslikeadream]

32. That's true

It would be so easy, wouldn't it? I mean they must have had a whole bunch of cameras watching the place

[Beam Me Up]

36. Exactly.

They keep telling us PRECISELY what happened. However, problem is, they don't back it up with any hard evidence.

That is the definition of a "conspiracy theory" in the diminutive sense of the term.

We have the black box data from the AA 77 FDR and the data shows the plane from which it was taken to have been too high to hit the Pentagon at the last reading, 273 feet radar, AND on the wrong heading to have created the damage at the Pentagon (downed freeway light poles and the damage path inside). This creates a bit of a conundrum because if the data is correct, then the black box could NOT have been found in the Pentagon. Hmmm .... Chain of custody anyone?

The NTSB knows this. The FBI knows this because WE TOLD THEM. Their reply: "And who are YOU?"

Meanwhile, through FOIA's we find out that the NTSB and the FBI did not positively identify AA 77 from the plane wreckage!!. Like everything in this conspiracy theory of theirs THEY JUST ASSUMED THAT IT WAS. Just as NIST assumed that the WTC towers came down because the fire proofing 'must have' been dislodged sufficiently to have caused it. Even their own simulations showed otherwise.

But of course NONE of this is reported on the TV -- or even here at DU without ridicule -- so no one "believes" it.

We have them by the balls but what help do we get to bring this criminal administration DOWN and bring and end to this WAR and an end to the PATRIOT ACT BULL SHIT?

NONE ZERO ZIP -- all we get is snide fucking remarks.

Edit: HTML

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[victordrazen]

111. How rude

So much for democrats being the party of human enlightenment . It seems a small group of posters (who are remarkably similar in their statements) are allowed to say whatever nasty stuff they want against the majority of posters. I don't get it.

[Bolo Boffin]

112. I'm the rude one?

CraigOrAldo runs around calling Pentagon witnesses liars or worse and I'm the rude one?

If you have a problem with the way this website is run, GO START YOUR OWN.

[victordrazen]

119. False indignation about Pentagon witnesses

most of them are connected to media sources or to government agencies. If a witness says what you like he is a sacred cow, if not a "kook". You have no right to tell me where to post and unlike you, I don't have 24 hours a day to spend on message forums posting about something I supposedly DON'T agree with. Makes no sense.

[Bolo Boffin]

120. My indignation is actual and sincere. Don't ever make a judgment like that about me again.

In this or any other incarnation you assume or have at DU.

Most of them are? What about the ones that aren't? Don't they count?

What about the National Geographic field trip that boarded Flight 77 and came home to their parents in coffins? What about them?

Let me repeat myself -- instead of complaining about how a message board is run (which is against the rules), go find another website that's more to your liking. Hanging around a website that you hate is REALLY something that doesn't make any sense. That's why I'm here. I like this website and don't like to see it trashed up with foul, ignorant, and insulting posts like the ones you continue to post here.

If you don't like it, there's the Internet. BYE (AGAIN).

[defendandprotect]

138. American Airlines says flights #11 and #77 were not scheduled to fly on 9/11 . . .

And it's also interesting that Mayor Brown took some chaplains, etal to the

San Franciso airport to try to comfort the families waiting there for the

passengers of the allegedly hijacked planes.

Seems that the only people there were TV crews and Mayor Brown and his companions --

no relatives!!!

When this became all too clear the airport was shut down.


And, I'd suggest that you have an elevated sense of your presence here when YOU are

inviting other posters to leave the dungeon -- or the website!

Get real with yourself!

[Bolo Boffin]

146. AA does no such thing. This has been explained here repeatedly.

When you must rely on factual inaccuracies to maintain belief in your theories, you might as well be using a modern banana to prove God's intelligent design.

[defendandprotect]

147. American Airlines says flights #11 and #77 were not scheduled to fly on 9/11 . . .

and additionally TWO FLIGHTS LANDED at other airports and are thought to be the

missing flights. Passengers disembarked safely.




http://www.nowpublic.com/american-airlines-9-11-didnt-h...

And a more complete report . . .
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/aa_flts/aa_flts.htm

[Bolo Boffin]

150. No. n/t

[lovepg]

151. So this is YOUR site Now BOLO???? when did that occur?

Do you actually speak for the administrator?
Or do you just think you do?

[Bolo Boffin]

152. Yes, in April 2008, this became my site.

Try to keep up.

[lovepg]

155. april 2008 why how ever did you know? nt

[Bolo Boffin]

156. Well, I looked at the dates in the OP and most other posts in this recently bumped thread

They are right there for everyone to see, including you.

[lovepg]

158. Oh thank you oh thank its what I have always wanted!! nt

[Twist_U_Up]

121. I do.

No star for DU.......................2 week

[Flatulo]

115. Maybe there's evidence you haven't seen?

> They keep telling us PRECISELY what happened. However, problem is, they don't back it up with
> any hard evidence.

I see this comment a lot. No one is going to send body parts or aircraft fuselage chunks to your home, so if this is your standard of proof you are going to be disappointed. The whole MSM is suspect to many on the left, so what does that leave for sources that are scholarly and vetted?

Governments like to keep things secret, even when it runs the risk of letting CTs fester.

Having said that, I too would love to see what the Pentagon surveillance cameras captured, assuming they were even working.

The whole 9/11 incident was a huge black eye on the performance of the United States military and intelligence apparatus, on which we outspend the rest of the world combined. Is it any wonder the government would prefer not to talk openly about it?

[cynatnite]

34. And what about the human remains found at the site?

How did those get there?

And what about the passengers of that flight? What about them?

[Beam Me Up]

41. Ask yourself how you know any of that?

You know because you were told, right? And you believed what you were told, right?

Fair enough -- so long as you can trust those who tell you.

But when you submit an FOIA request and get back data which contradicts the statements made by government agencies and then get STONEWALLED not only by the agencies themselves but the media and most of everyone else -- what are you to make of that?

If you haven't done the research, of course it all sounds like total madness. But there are CREDIBLE people out there who have been researching this for years. You don't know about us because it is being kept OUT of the public awareness.

Ask yourself why that would be. Now ask yourself, who are you going to trust? Do you trust the government to tell you the truth? The media??

How is that working for ya?

[cynatnite]

51. I'm asking for someone to explain the remains found at the site...

and your response is somehow considered reason?

If there was no plane that hit the pentagon can you explain away those families who lost loved ones on that flight?

You can't reasonably explain it away and you know it.

Here is this little tidbit of information...

The government was supposedly smart enough to pull off 9/11 which would have required at least a few hundred people to help pull it off...it's been some years ago and not one person has stepped forward to say they put the dynamite in one of the towers, or laid body parts around the pentagon and so on.

The bush administration is so intelligent that they could kill thousands of people in a massive conspiracy...

but yet....


They couldn't even get WATER to the Katrina victims.

This is the reality...

The bush administration is incompetent which is why 9/11 happened.

[Beam Me Up]

55. Sorry, incompetence doesn't cut it.

Reason?

Well, let me see. Someone lies to you all the time about everything but in one instance they can't possibly be lying. Does that seem like a reasonable attitude to you?

So far as "incompetence" goes -- how "incompetent" has this administration been at, oh, covering up things those of us here at DU know that most people out there that only get their information via the TV been? Consider also that when you or I are "incompetent" in business, we loose money. That isn't the case with this bunch. Every time they are "incompetent" they or their cohorts make a killing -- sometimes quite literally. Go figure.

But to your specific question -- The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. Like the NTSB (who has nothing to say about the fact that the data they released to us through an FOIA does not support the governments account of events at the Pentagon and who, moreover, didn't bother to formally and positively identify the plane wreckage found at the Pentagon), like NIST (who claims that the WTC buildings wouldn't have collapsed due to fire or from plane impact had the fire proofing not been "widely dislodged" and have no evidence other than the obvious fact the buildings came down to prove their hypothesis) and like the FBI (who hasn't listed 9/11 as one of the crimes for which bin Laden is wanted because they have "no hard evidence" linking him to it), the AFIP is an arm of the federal government. How do WE or even the researchers at AFIP know where those DNA samples came from?

Again, it is all a matter of who you trust.

Do you trust this government? Do you?

WHY?

[cynatnite]

58. The government is too stupid to pull off 9/11...

That's it. It's not a matter of trust...it's a matter of intelligence and the bush administration hasn't had it since day one. Period.

Yep, no explanation for those that died on that flight. Gotcha.

[wildbilln864]

66. Yes and they're too stupid to get us involved in an illegal war based on lies too!

And surely they're too stupid to keep it going for years. How's that workin for us? The government can be stupid and still do things when the public is even more stupid!

[cynatnite]

71. I will never understand why folks think bush and his pinheads are so smart...

cheney's probably the more intelligent of the lot, but he had Iraq on the brain from day one. Saw 9/11 for what it was...an opportunity to get his way which is exactly what he did.

So, what would you tell those people who lost loved ones on flight 77? That the government murdered them in a bunker? Their loved one is really in South America?

No one has to this day been able to even come close to a reasonable explanation about those people that died. These conspiracies completely fall apart because of it.

This is why I give the LIHOPer's more credence than the MIHOP folks. They're not trying to move facts around to support crazy theories. They think the government let it happen and that's far more honest and sensible than the MIHOP insanity.

[wildbilln864]

75. Cheney's smart enough to make millions...

pulling the wool over our eyes. And so has Rumsfeld been doing that for decades also.

"So, what would you tell those people who lost loved ones on flight 77? That the government murdered them in a bunker? Their loved one is really in South America?" Check this short video out please.
I can only tell them we really don't know as there's been no real investigation!

"No one has to this day been able to even come close to a reasonable explanation about those people that died. These conspiracies completely fall apart because of it."
How do you expect anyone to give explanation to things kept secret? You know well that the OCT has fallen apart for sure. The investigation will yeild the answers. Accept nothing less!

[cynatnite]

82. Listen, if you want to believe this, that's your right...

knock yourself out.

[wildbilln864]

84. I believe we've been lied to about 911...

just as they've lied about everything else. I believe there should be a thorough and independant investigation of 911. That's what I believe. The rest is debatable. And yes, that is my right.

[defendandprotect]

141. Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld saw an opportuntity to attack Iraq in the PNAC papers. . .

as they cried out for a new "Pearl Harbor."

What planet are you on?

Again ... no planes/no passengers --

#11 and #77 according to AA were not schedule to fly that day --

MEANWHILE, TWO PLANES DID LAND AT DIFFERENT AIRPORTS AND PASSENGERS SAFELY DISCHARGED.

Slow yourself down and start thinking.

[quicknthedead]

126. Yes, and they're laughing all the way to the bank doing it!

Big Lies get you Big Wars...and Big Wars get you Big War Profits!

Bush et al are war criminals: They are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people -- men, women, and children, all dead in an illegal invasion and war based upon LIES.

But Bush et al could care less.

Note Bene: Those who care not for the lives of the innocent are capable of anything...including 9/11.

Question: What is the difference between Communism and Socialism?
Answer: Not much.

Question: What is the difference between MIHOP and LIHOP?
Answer: Not much.

[Beam Me Up]

67. LoL

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Bush is an idiot, no doubt, perfect little puppet, but Cheney and the whole neocon cabal are anything but.

As for the rest of it, what evidence do you have that Flight 77 even departed that day, much less crashed into the Pentagon?

Flight 77 was never POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED at the Pentagon. That is admitted by the FBI and the NTSB. So your whole question is moot. If Flight 77 DID crash at the Pentagon that should be relatively easy to prove, wouldn't you think? Unfortunately for the Neocons, turns out it ain't so easy. They rely upon good folks like you to swallow their horror story hook line and sinker and then DEFEND IT for them.

Go figure.

[victordrazen]

101. They've got just about everything they wanted

not bad for "idiots".

[defendandprotect]

140. And the same criminal famlies were "too stupid" to kill JFK, MLK, RFK . . .???

These are very well accomplished criminals . . .

And, of course, this was carried out from the highest levels of authority --

with military help. Blackwater?

You're ignoring the info about the flights which has been posted over and again --

#11 and #77 -- American Airlines says they were not scheduled to fly on 9/11 --

Additional TWO FLIGHTS LANDED AND PASSENGERS DISCHARGED ... at airports other than

the alleged destinations.

Also interesting was a 9/11 anniversary remembrance by ABC where evidently families

of 9/11 WTC and Pentagon appeared -- but NOT ONE PERSON affiliated with anyone on the

planes!!

[moodforaday]

56. You make unwarranted assumptions

Unwaranted assumption: that Bush/FEMA really WANTED to deliver water, food and emergency supplies to the Katrina victims. You perhaps make this assumption because (a) it was their official and moral duty to do so, and (b) any sane human being would have tried their best to do so. But none of this means that Bush and FEMA actually set out to do things you think they should have done. The assumption is unwarranted, because you are extrapolating from yourself, and the general population of sane human beings, to Bush and his cronies.

The exact same assumptions are made left and right about Iraq: that Bush, in his heart of hearts, wanted to bring US-style democracy and freedom to Iraq, only he failed. That Bush wanted to keep the price of oil down to ensure the continuation of the American Way of Life(tm), only he failed. The facts suggest the precise reverse: that the chaos, the bloodshed, the skyrocketing oil prices are not unfortunate side-effects of a botched (but well-intentioned) job, but rather, that they have always been the goal. Until this simple point is well understood, there will be no effective opposition to what this administration has done, and no holding them to account.

Another example: the FISA law debacle and Bush's fight for telecom immunity. It is mistaken to argue that hey, Mr President, you don't really need this to fight terrorism effectively, since the FISA law already gives you all you need to eavesdrop now and get it okayed later. As if he didn't know that! As if Bush really, honestly, was just doing his best to "fight terrorism" effectively.

See the real purpose behind what Bush is doing, and you will see that he and his people have in fact been awesomly competent. Almost eight years, and they ALWAYS got what they wanted, often with a little help from the Democratic party. Getting exactly what you want every time all the time is NOT incompetence.

[Beam Me Up]

59. Thank you. Very well put.

Isn't it interesting how "incompetent" policies seem to get funding every year -- sometimes through the course of decades and administrations both R and D?

Take the "War on Drugs" for example. Now THERE is a "winning" domestic policy. /sarcasm/ How many billions of dollars to stop drug abuse in this country? But, gee, what happened? Drug abuse is still rampant. Why? Because it is an incompetent or ineffective policy? Why YES, it is, so far as its STATED AIM is concerned. But still it persists, decade after decade, with its funding and the legislation that militarizes our domestic police forces, allows for no-knock warrants, property seizures and a very high incarceration rate especially among minorities. Now why would that be?

Could it be because the genuine purpose of that so called "war" (which is, in fact, a precursor to the War on Terror), has OTHER aims and uses that are quite outside the scope of its "official" function?

FOLLOW THE MONEY. Follow the power. From our pockets into whose bank accounts? From our rights to whose control?

The problem this DUer is having is the problem many liberals and progressives have. They have the idea that being lied to by government and media is the exception rather than the rule. Once one 'gets it' that such lies and deceptions aren't either 'new' or 'unusual' it all begins to make far more sense. This struggle started long before 9/11 -- that was just one of the more recent eruptions of the parapolitical into public awareness. It served its purpose stated boldly one year before it happened in the PNAC white paper, Rebuilding America's Defenses: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor." - pg 51 Nine months later the authors are in the White House and one year later their hoped for "catalyzing event" manifests itself before the eyes of a shocked and horrified public. Then what? Everything they god-damend wanted, including, for all practical purposes, the nullification of the checks and balances of our Constitution.

Incompetence. Yeah, that's what it was! Sheer incompetence!!

[cynatnite]

61. There is no assuming that the bush administration is stupid...

It's a fact. Look at 'heck of a job brownie'. The horse show guy. Yeah, real brains that one.

The bush administration has been caught time and time again at being negligently incompetent.

You really think they're being this stupid on purpose just so they can hide how smart they are? That's a good one.

[moodforaday]

79. Bush is stupid.

Cheney is not. Rumsfeld is not. The neocons are damn intelligent, they are well educated, well read, they've been around. Thir vision of the world is skewed and kooky to say the least, but they are not dumb.

[defendandprotect]

148. The question should be: How stupid are we . . . ????

They wanted and needed to invade Afghanistan and Iraq -- they got it . . .

Agree with your comments --

they are far from "dumb" --

Rather they are quite successful criminals, IMO!

[Twist_U_Up]

124. Perfectly stated. Stupid like a fox.

The end draws near

[defendandprotect]

142. Agree -- very naive thinking -- !!

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

62. Sorry you wasted your time in typing all that n/t

[Beam Me Up]

69. That's it, eh?

I'm done.

You've shown your stripes and the treason you defend with "incompetence".

[cynatnite]

70. If you want to think that the bush administration is so vastly intelligent...

and had at least a few hundred people to pull off 9/11...that's your right. Me...I think they're incompetent selfish idiots who have no empathy. That's what killed thousands of people on 9/11.

[warren pease]

72. No waste... It's from an article I did for OpEdNews and a few other places...

And of course the message, the various unchallenged facts contained therein, the proof points that suggest to reasonable people that there's more here than we're being told... all this falls on deaf ears (blind eyes?) because they've sold you on the idea that they're incompetent rather than malevolent, and that everything they touch turns to shit, even though it actually turns to gold if you squint a little harder and look in the right places.

As Bob Bowman, Ph.D, former fighter pilot, so-called "father of the Star Wars project" and seriously pissed off citizen says, "If the government had done nothing at all, if normal procedures HAD been followed, the aircraft would have been intercepted with 20 minutes to spare, the twin towers would still be standing, and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive."

In other words, they were so incompetent that they arranged to clear the northeast corridor of nearly all the interceptors that would normally have been in the air within minutes but, on this particular day, were up by the North Pole instead. That's some damn fine incompetence they got there. Or maybe it was bin Laden with a few keystrokes on his magic laptop and a quick call to his contacts at NORAD.

OK. I honestly don't give a shit whether you personally are a devotee of the official conspiracy theory or some other one. I don't care that it seems somehow vitally important to you to defend the indefensible and believe with your whole heart and soul the explanations put forth by a coven of serial liars who, just this once and only this once, were compelled by some combination of moral code, sense of decency and a desire to come clean so powerful and urgent that they simply had to level with the American people.

To me, that's about as likely as cold fusion contained in a mason jar. To you, it's apparently the truth.

Fine. If it turns out you're wrong, though, I expect to see a gigantic mea culpa from you and the other half-dozen OCT groupies, preferably in 16 pt. boldface type so that even old bastards like me can read it without glasses.


wp

[CrawlingChaos]

99. ahem... not wasted

You think you're the only one reading here?

Thanks for the great info Warren!

[wildbilln864]

68. always a pleasure...

to read your intelligent posts, warren. Thank you.

[wildbilln864]

65. WTF!?

wait a minute.
"The government was supposedly smart enough to pull off 9/11 which would have required at least a few hundred people to help pull it off...it's been some years ago and not one person has stepped forward to say they put the dynamite in one of the towers, or laid body parts around the pentagon and so on."
You actually believe that if the government had pulled it off, it would have taken hundreds. But UBL and his merry band of 19 suckers did it all by themselves?

[cynatnite]

77. Okay...

They would need to get the buildings ready with explosives, get the planes and some idiots to fly into buildings who were willing to die in order for the government invade Iraq...



Sorry, I lost control there for a sec...

Then they'd have to deal with the families who lost loved ones on those planes...all of them. That had to have been a mess with cell phones and all that. That's not to mention the hard time they'd have in aiming a missile at the pentagon and no one knowing about it. Between civilian and military radars focused on NY and D.C...a lot of folks were watching.

There's quite a bit more and my sides get to hurting when I laugh too much.

If the government was intent on pulling 9/11 off they would need a large amount of people to follow through each individual portion of it. Think about it. Take that day step by step. Who brainstormed 9/11? Who went out looking for people to do it? Who paid who money to do it? Sorry, but knowing how weak-willed most Americans are...at least one would come forward with the story that either they helped or their buddy, loved one or a schmo they met on a bus conspired to murder fellow citizens.

The logistics for the government to pull it off compared to those who actually did are totally different. Even my teenage daughter is smart enough to know that.

And I'm still waiting for the explanation of those that died on the plane that hit the pentagon...oh, there was no plane according to the 9/11 conspiracy folks...so those family members who think their loved ones died are suckers for believing the government.

But if you want to believe that crap and continue to disgrace the memories of the thousands who died...that's your choice. Knock yourself out.

[seemslikeadream]

81. disgrace the memories of the thousands who died?

You should watch the video in my sig line


9/11 Press For Truth - Victims' Families Tell the Story the Media Won't ---- 9/11 TRUTH

[wildbilln864]

83. So many strawmen and baseless assumptions in your post...

so little time.

"They would need to get the buildings ready with explosives(okay), get the planes and some idiots to fly into buildings who were willing to die in order for the government invade Iraq..." The last part's your assumption. Not mine.

"And I'm still waiting for the explanation of those that died on the plane that hit the pentagon(Why are you waiting for an explanation from those that had nothing to do with it? Rather odd! You should be demanding a full explanation from your uncle Sam.)...oh, there was no plane according to the 9/11 conspiracy folks(more assumption!)...so those family members who think their loved ones died are suckers for believing the government. Watch some of the videos of those family members you speak of! They still are seeking answers. They deserve the whole truth!

[alarimer]

93. I am with you.

I hate all this woo-woo nonsense. There is simply NO EVIDENCE to support their idiocy. None at all.

Remember Occam's Razor: the simplest theory that fits all the facts is most likely to be the correct one. No need in invoking complicated nonsense just to pin blame on the Bush administration. They are guilty of a lot but not this.

[defendandprotect]

143. Yes . . .

which is why they went with NO PLANES - NO FOUL UP'S!!

NO HIJACKERS -- NO HIJACKED PLANES --

The WTC towers were wired for demolition, at the least, however -- and there

is much evidence of that from employees there -- especially the "Power Down Weekend Before"

which I presume you've also neglected to learn about?



Oooooooh..... but I saw it on TV . . . oooooohhhh....

[victordrazen]

102. Exactly, a ragtag group of "hijackers" who can barely fly

suddenly become genius masterminds, but Bush and all of his resources are just too dumb too do it. uh-huh.

[hack89]

116. Why ragtag?

I thought they were college educated men from comfortable middle class backgrounds led by experienced warriors that fought and defeated the Russians.

Why can't you accept that brown men can be smart and dangerous enemies that can figure out an opponents weakness and take advantage of it.

It didn't doesn't take a genius to figure out that pre-911 airport security was a joke.

[defendandprotect]

144. So is POST-9/11 airport security "a joke" --

[alittlelark]

106. They didn't WANT to get H2O to Katrina victims (soc. Darwinism)

PS - it would take 50+/- to pull off the whole shebang. Stand Down orders----------what more do you need.

(edited for freeper spelling)

[defendandprotect]

139. What remains? Do you think that DNA evidence can't be planted . . .

or Coroners can't be bought?

We have some of these Coroners going from one tragedy -- Columbine -- to another --

Shanksville.

April Gallop -- a soldier -- was sitting right behind where the plane allegedly struck

the Pentagon. Ms Gallop saw "NO DEBRIS" of a plane!!

She and her son were seriously injured -- she is suing Cheney, Rumsfeld, etal for lack

of warning -- no alarm was sounded to tell personnel to evacuate the Pentagon!

Note Minetta's testimony to the 9/11 Commission that Cheney was warned a number of times

by an aide of "INCOMING."

Additionally re the Pentagon . . . a new FOIA release re flight #93 says that the plane

was flying at an altitude TOO HIGH to have permitted the plane to have hit the lamp posts!

When you start looking into the families you find that planes thought to have been

hijacked landed at other airports and passengers safely unloaded.

You also have to face the reality that there were NO PHONE CALLS FROM THE PLANES ...

per the FBI!

And . . . you thought they were TRYING TO GET WATER TO THE KATRINA VICTIMS . . . ???

Wow -- beyond naive!! Wake up!!

Rather the reports are that the trucks with water were turned around. Shooed off.

[alarimer]

92. Yes what about Flight 77 and all those missing people?

Conspiracy theorists have no good explanation for that. And that is why this conspiracy theory is absolute bullshit, like all the others.

[defendandprotect]

145. Only if you don't read do you think that --

American Airlines says that flights #11 and #77 were not scheduled to fly on 9/11 --

TWO PLANES unaccounted for did land at other airports and passengers were safely left off.

No planes - no passengers --

no hijacked planes -- no hijackers --

NO FOUL UP's for the conspirators --


Interesting story of Mayor Brown who went to the SF airport with chaplains, etc to try

to comfort the families waiting there for loved ones on the "hijacked planes."

Brown found that the only people at the airport were TV news crews -- no families!

When that became very clear the airport was shut down on a bomb threat!

There were no passengers -- wake up!

[TZ]

76. Other than the gazillion witnesses who saw it

Including friends and relatives of mine. I suppose the were all hypnotized by the evul lazer beams right?

[Beam Me Up]

85. I know some people who would like to speak with your

friends and relatives. They've been doing extensive interviews, on tape, of eye-witnesses. Interesting what they've found out. Not what you'd think.

Oh, and there were no "gazillion" witnesses. Sorry. Some, yes. And many of the witness reports are very conflicting. But I doubt you've looked into that as to you "truth" is something already made up and not to be investigated, despite your quote from Skinner.

[defendandprotect]

137. FOIA release from black box now says plane flying too HIGH to have hit lamp posts . ..!!

[Norrin Radd]

46. Eh? That's nothing.

I'm more interested in knowing if there was a breakfast with Mahmoud Ahmad or not.

[DaDooRonRon]

53. What happened to it then?

You know, the fuselage, the seats, the engines, the bodies of the victims, the hole in the Pentagon, all the luggage and personal effects of the victims, the photos of the jet after impact - all the piddly little stuff that gets some of us in such a huff.

Of course, if you are still sticking to the "approved" version then none of that matters, right?

[alittlelark]

87. Wow.... that was SOME leap... The OP was cogent.

Your random leap made it sound as though you had spent the last 15 hours in the Mod's Hot Tub w/ copious amts of 'liquid refreshment' and other 'tub goodies'.

Reactionary.... not very cool.

[fascisthunter]

94. A Bit Disappointing Actually...

It was a mighty leap.

On edit: I'd actually like to see the proof of the plane that hit the Pentagon.

[Usrename]

96. Everyone knows that 9/11 has been thoroughly investigated.

Everyone knows that all the guilty parties have been brought to justice.

[Twist_U_Up]

109. And Bin Laden lived in sophisticated caves too right.....gimmie a break

Bin Ladens Cave according to Rumsfeld
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGhGHxw0mSo

all from some cave in Afgahnistan........my ass

all our tax dollars to become the major super power and all we get is a shredded constitution. Fuck

Wheres the video?




The most protected building in the world........for what ?
So easy a caveman could do it.....

[SidDithers]

130. Kick...nt

Sid

[defendandprotect]

136. Presume you are being sincere . . . ??

Then . . . what woke you up?

Was it the new citizen's investigation which showed that police officers and other
witnesses saw a plane come in on a different route from the one over the light poles?

Was it the FOIA document which showed that the plane was flying at an altitude TOO HIGH
to have hit the lamp posts which were allegedly knocked over by a plane?

Was it Minetta's testimony to the 9/11 commission re warnings to Cheney at the Pentagon
that there was "incoming"?

Was it Brig. General Larry Arnold's having sent up a jet pilot immediately to find out
"what hit the Pentagon" . . . and the pilot reporting back "ZERO EVIDENCE OF A PLANE
HAVING HIT THE PENTAGON"?

Was it the CNN reporter and camera crew who had been at the Pentagon given reports of
one of the hijacked planes still flying around in the DC area . . . who reported quite
clearly that "NO PLANE HIT THE PENTAGON"?

Was it his retraction of that info when he returned to the network studios?
Was CNN hiring reporters who hallucinate "NO PLANES" -- ?
Was CNN hiring reporters who have poor vision and limited powers of reasoning?

Was it April Gallop's lawsuit against Cheney, Rumsfeld, etal for not warning Pentagon
personnel to evacuate the building. She makes clear the constant "alarms" and training
to evacuate? However, on 9/11 . . . no alarm.
Was it the fact that April Gallop -- who was sitting right behind the area where the
plane allegedly hit -- saw no plane debris?

Was it reports from the Washington Post the evening before in Florida that
surface-to-air missiles had been put on the roof of the hotel were Bush stayed while
realizing that the Pentagon had displayed no defense whatsoever on 9/11?

I'd be interested to know . . . since you've joined us here to make a comment --

[lovepg]

149. Skinner sluming with the crazies? Whats it like up in the sunshine huh?

I here the football season started is it true??

[Bolo Boffin]

153. April 2008.

Just in case Skinner doesn't respond to you.

[Make7]

154. And this thread was posted in General Discussion...

... where it stayed for about ten hours before being moved here.
 

[elias7]

157. Somewhat unfair

It is curious that with the confiscated footage from at least two outside businesses and possibly other sources, we might have had more released to the public than 6 segmented frames of ambiguity.

[The Magistrate]

3. This Is Semantic Blurring, Ma'am

No one questions there were, and doubtless are, conspiratorial actions throughout history and in the present day.

What is generally doubted, and properly doubted, are the endlessly elaborated 'universal solvent' style of conspiracist claim, in which virtually every event is somehow linked to a single group of actors, who are both infinitely ruthless and efficient, and yet somehow careless and clumsy enough to leave clear traces that can be picked up by any shut-in with a web connection in a few moments on Google.

"It ain't what you don't know, it's what you know that ain't so that'll get you every time."

[Lerkfish]

16. ----

--

[The Magistrate]

19. Look About For A Couch, Sir

No one would want you to strike your head on a hardwood floor.

[Twist_U_Up]

131. Id suggest the same for you but with a doctor at the other end.

just sayin

[Zynx]

80. You nailed it as usual, Magistrate.

This has always been my complaint. Conspiracies do exist, but they do not involve every major event.

[alittlelark]

88. -----------------------

[Diane_nyc]

129. "Semantic Blurring" and the term "Conspiracy Theory"

The Magistrate wrote:

3. This Is Semantic Blurring, Ma'am

No one questions there were, and doubtless are, conspiratorial actions throughout history and in the present day.

What is generally doubted, and properly doubted, are the endlessly elaborated 'universal solvent' style of conspiracist claim, in which virtually every event is somehow linked to a single group of actors, who are both infinitely ruthless and efficient, and yet somehow careless and clumsy enough to leave clear traces that can be picked up by any shut-in with a web connection in a few moments on Google.

However, the term "conspiracy theory" is commonly used to refer not only to the "universal solvent style of conspiracist claim" (e.g. "the Illuminati"), but also to controversial allegations of government wrongdoing (e.g. the idea of complicity in the 9/11 attacks by some people in the U.S.) which need not imply any such "universal solvent."

Thus, the people who use throw around the term "conspiracy theory" (to dismiss controversial allegations of government wrongdoing) are the ones engaging in semantic blurring, to discredit legitimate concerns about possible government wrongdoing by associating such concerns with the truly wacky theories.

Of course, people who believe in the "universal solvent style of conspiracist claim" tend also to believe in just about every conceivable allegation of government wrongdoing. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who question one or more "official stories" without believing in "the Illuminati," the "Elders of Zion," or David Icke's lizards.

[screembloodymurder]

4. It's amazing how fast the Bush administration can work out the details.

One month after 911 we had the Patriot Act and constitutional interpretations to back up an imperial Presidency.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larisa-alexandrovna/fourt...

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. THose things were in the can and taken out when the opportunity came

LIHOP my dead, LIHOP

And under the strictest interpretation of the LAW, that is actually a conspiracy too

[Beausoleil]

8. Not to mention taking Cipro BEFORE the anthrax attacks. n/t

[Wizard777]

27. The chemicle markers in the anthrax say, Made in the USA by Uncle Sam.

[PVnRT]

6. You're right!

I mean, this is the same government that pulled off the successful Bay of Pigs invasion and coordinated the outstanding relief effort in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, after all.

Once again, just because conspiracies have happened, doesn't mean they're always the cause. You need inconvenient things like "proof" for that.

[cynatnite]

9. So it was bush senior who faked the moon landing? n/t

[BlooInBloo]

10. Hahaha! Trying to hitch every wacky UFO, aliens, etc. horse in the world to the torture memo!

Stay classy DUers.

[damntexdem]

11. Actually, ridicule of conspiracy theories is just an evil plot.

As, of course, are conspiracy theories themselves.

In this case, however, everyone knew the Bushistas were guilty from the get go. With the Busheviks, conspiracy isn't a theory, it's a fact of life.

[EFerrari]

17. Imo, ridiculing our attempts to make sense makes no sense.

There's so much secrecy in our government, what would the viable alternative be? To wait until the corporate media decides to inform us?

That'll work!

[Beam Me Up]

31. Thank you SF! Why don't we know the answers to our questions?

It is UNBELIEVABLE to me that so many people who KNOW that this is the most corrupt, criminal, lying administration in the history of this country STILL TAKE THEIR WORD -- and that is ALL they've given us -- about what happened on 9/11.

Meanwhile, those of us who have been involved in doing what the press, the media and the government WILL NOT DO -- asking questions and finding out as much information as we can -- all without money, without access to subpoena power, without access to classified information -- get labeled 'tin foil hat nutters'.

They are lying to us about everything related to the War on Terror. EVERYTHING. We know this.

Nothing THEORETICAL about that at all.

Now, precisely WHAT happened and how it was pulled off -- none of us KNOW that. But that begs the question, WHY NOT? Why don't we have explanations that make sense?

Absent that all we can do is 'theorize'. We shouldn't be basing domestic and foreign policy on THEORY that meets THEIR twisted agendas -- and that is precisely what this administration has done!


Edit typo

[EFerrari]

40. If you don't believe the official account of the Kennedy assassination

you must be a nut.

(ooPs!)

If you don't believe the official account of the MLK or RFK assassination, you must be a nut!

(Oops!)

If you don't believe that Bush was never elected, you must be a nut!


(Oops!)

If you don't believe Abe Graib was just a few bad apples, if you don't believe that kooks were claiming illegal wiretapping, if you believe that FEMA allowed New Orleans to drown, you must be a nut.

(Oops!)

One of my professors put his academic @ss on the line last year when he edited "9/11: Intellectuals Speak Out". I know Peter Dale Scott. He's not an internet habitue troll with nothing better to do. Just as I know Mike Pritchard -- who narrated "9/11: Quest for Truth".

It's a lot easier to ridicule the efforts of honest brokers than it is to overcome your own denial.

I don't think we can afford denial at this point.

[Beam Me Up]

43. You know Peter?

So do I!

And you are absolutely right.

People who can't separate the wheat from the chaff don't understand what CREDIBLE means. CREDIBLE sources of information.

This administration HAS NO STREET CRED and shouldn't be given any for anything.

[EFerrari]

44. He was my teacher at Cal. Not a friend but a respected teacher.

When he came out, that was IT for me.

[Beam Me Up]

47. I first met Peter in 1997

Not a close friend but I had dinner with him last year before his Road to 9/11 came out.

Remarkable human being! Eminently credible scholar.



edit HTML

[EFerrari]

52. Anyone who questions the Official Story as Peter has done

will be pilloried for the next twenty years.

But, his work, and the work of others with his same measure of credibility, will be the real foundation for the truth that we need to sort out -- or, that our kids and grandkids need. I'm not a 9/11 truther but I recognize solid academic work when it hits me over the head.

America is a little slow on the uptake. We're so cowed. Thank goodness for independent minds like his.

[Kaleko]

18. A conspiracy is more than one person plotting and committing a crime. Of course,

that almost nevah happens...

[Asgaya Dihi]

20. I never liked the term

In realistic terms conspiracy happens all the time, check our courts. All it takes is a small handful of people who plan, they don't even have to do, something wrong. Sell drugs, run guns, smuggle illegals, whatever. Happens all the time. Problem is when you talk conspiracy people start off on their own train of thought with all the extremes associated with the word, whatever your point was gets lost in the reputation associated with it.

Confluence of interests works as well for me and it often applies to the same situations. People come together and find it's in their best interests to do something so they do it for as long as it works, sometimes it pushes or crosses the limits of legality and often the limits of ethics. It doesn't require lifelong commitments or Illuminati level conspiracy to be real. Being in the financial or political interests of a few people with power will do, and if it's ever more convenient to eat each other than to work with each other sometimes they'll do that too.

The problem isn't in the idea that conspiracy happens, it's in what happens to the subject once it becomes considered "conspiracy". We can and should approach the same subjects while rejecting the whole conspiracy idea even if we think it fits. Doesn't matter if we like the term or not so much as what impact it has on the debate. If it's negative adjust, divorce ourselves from the term and convince them that this set of facts, whatever it is, can be sourced and verified separate from any theory.

If we can't do that we might as well save our breath, we aren't going to do our subject much good anyway.

[EFerrari]

21. The Republicans had just as much reason to demonize "conspiracy"

as they did to demonize "liberal".

Come on.

They're going to try to steal our election AGAIN using the Justice Department and HAVA -- and we're STILL snarking over the word "conspiracy"?

Maybe we deserve what happens to us.

[Asgaya Dihi]

24. You know, I don't care abut the repubs or what they think.

I care what works. You see my taglines? That's what I do, debate the drug war with the public and convince them that everything they think they know is wrong. You know how I do that, and successfully? I ignore, totally and completely, the whole idea of conspiracy. All I need to do is share the stats, the facts, the overall results of our efforts so far.

I beat my head against the wall for ages trying to convince people that marijuana laws were wrong or that the racist aspect was simply unfair, an extension of Jim Crow that took over as it lost power otherwise. It simply moved behind bars. All of it's true best I can tell and the public didn't give a damned about any of it. If you want to know what they do give a damned about drop me a private note and I'll share the url of a debate I had with the public on the subject of regulating heroin among other things.

Went rather well I'd think.

It's not the subject, it's the approach most of the time. If what we're doing doesn't work and we insist that we've got the right to do it anyway just because we're right, then yes, we do deserve what happens to us. The goal was change, not to protect our pride or to be "right".

[EFerrari]

26. I care what the Republicans do because they largely own the media

as well as our voting systems.

I'm not interesting in being right. I'm interested in being effective. Imagine that.

[Asgaya Dihi]

28. Good deal

We're on the same page then more or less.

Spin control just isn't our thing and never has been, I wish it was. I mean damn, even if we accept the 9-11 explanation Bush ran an administration which would have stripped the nation of air cover, allowed that fact to be printed in the papers, then went ahead with their plans in spite of how open we were being public knowledge. An attack results and somehow they came off as heroes for it. Now THAT'S spin control, and that's even accepting their version of events as accurate.

Sticking to our guns when it doesn't work isn't going to help us a lot though, I think the whole conspiracy idea hurts more than helps us. That's why I bypass the press and work on the blogs and the public forums where I can control my own message. You're right, the press is broken and they don't care. Can't reach a million at once but I know I've reached a couple or few thousand at a time, that'll do for a start.

Over time, I started this approach several years ago, some of the larger blogs have started echoing it and LEAP had a nice mention on AOL newsbloggers of all places due to one of them. Others are doing the same thing, same as we built up resistance to the war and other things through online awareness and organizing in the early years we'll have to do this one the hard way too. Have to establish it as a real rather than partisan, or conspiracy, issue for a large enough segment of the population that it becomes impossible to ignore any longer.

[bushmeister0]

22. The so-called "Business Plot" was real and guess who was involved?

A wiki entry:

"The Business Plot (also known as the Plot Against FDR or the White House Putsch) was a political conspiracy in 1933 where several wealthy businessmen and corporations planned to overthrow the presidency of Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Details of the plot came to light in early 1934, when retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler testified before the McCormack-Dickstein Congressional Committee. In his testimony, Butler claimed that a group of men had approached him as part of a plot to overthrow Roosevelt in a military coup. One of the alleged plotters, Gerald MacGuire, vehemently denied any such plot. In their final report, the Congressional committee supported Butler's allegations of the existence of the plot, but no prosecutions or further investigations followed, and the matter was mostly forgotten.

Major General Butler claimed that the American Liberty League was the plot's primary source of funding. The main backers were the Du Pont family, as well as leaders of U.S. Steel, General Motors, Standard Oil, Chase National Bank, and Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company.

The 2007 BBC radio documentary The White House Coup alleged that Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to the 41st and 43rd US Presidents respectively, was also connected with the plot."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

The Bush family angle:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2007/240707fas...

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

[nichomachus]

23. If you're not a conspiracy theorist

then you have to be a "coincidence theorist." You have to believe that all these seemingly random events line up to continually benefit the same people or groups of people.

That's like believing that if you drop a bucket of golf balls down a marble staircase, they will all magically line up on the fourth step.

Coincidence theorists are just crazy!

[seemslikeadream]

25. Coincidence Theory:

"Coincidence Theory: By sheer chance things just happen repeatedly and coincidentally to benefit their interests without any conscious connivance by them, which is most uncanny. There is also: Stupidity Theory, Innocence Theory, Momentary Aberration Theory, Incompetence Theory, Unintended Consequences Theory and Innocent Cultural Proclivities Theory."

- Michael Parenti

[hvn_nbr_2]

29. If you don't believe crazy-sounding shit, you just aren't paying attention. nt

[EFerrari]

91. LOL!

[Fireweed247]

48. "seemingly random events line up to continually benefit the same people"

You'd have to be nuts to believe that!

[SammyWinstonJack]

50. ...

[smoogatz]

33. The fact that grand conspiracies exist doesn't mean

that all conspiracy theories are true. Obviously. I do agree that the American right-wing is very much in the habit of taking down "upstart" Democrats it considers threatening to its agenda, though—they tried to do it with Roosevelt, and succeeded with JFK and RFK, very nearly with Clinton, and again with Gore and Kerry in the stolen elections of '00 and '04. I think they're gearing up as we speak for the attempted take-down of whoever the Dem nominee turns out to be, both before and after the election. I do think, though, that men walked on the moon, that chemtrails are nothing more than contrails, and that airplanes hit the WTC and the Pentagon. The apparent implosion of WTC 7 is a bit of a mystery, though.

[Beam Me Up]

38. You are absolutely right.

Again, a "conspiracy theory" in the diminutive, is something that is posited without credible evidence. Everything you say is right on the money.

Now, why would real conspiracies get confabulated with false ones?

You are right about everything in your post EXCEPT the Pentagon. See my post #38 up thread. We HAVE the evidence -- lots of it -- but you don't hear about it and won't hear about it on the TV. The data in the flight 77 data recorder is evidence of a coverup. The fact that the NTSB did not positively identify little plane wreckage there was as being from flight 77 is ALSO evidence of a cover up. We are talking about information gained from government agencies via FOIA -- not something someone made up.

We have it.

[nichomachus]

95. But it does mean

that you shouldn't rule out conspiracy without some evidence that it was adequately explained by other means. Many of the things you mentioned -- JFK, RFK, etc -- we explained, but never adequately. Anyone who has taken the time knows that John Hinckley, although he was present, had a gun, and did fire it, could not have fired the shot that hit Ronald Reagan -- unless you also believe that bullets can make two right turns in mid air.

How to assassinate someone. Find a wacko who can be convinced by agents provacateurs to shoot someone. Give the person the means and the access. Then, have someone who is a skilled marksman make the money shot from a secluded location or under the cover of confusion -- mostly because wackos can't be counted on to shoot straight or finish the job.

Then, think real hard. Who would have benefited had Reagan been killed?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

35. Conspiracy until proven

The Short List

1894 The Dreyfus affair

1898-1913 Western Water Rights: Los Angeles vs. Owens Valley

1919 Black Sox Scandal

1932 General Motors streetcar conspiracy

1932 to 1972 Tuskegee Syphilis Study

1950 Project MKULTRA

1953 Operation Ajax

1954 Operation PBSUCCESS

1956 COINTELPRO

1961 Bay of Pigs invasion

1961 The Cuban Project

1962 Operation Northwoods

1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident

1969 Secret Bombing of Cambodia

1969 to 1982 Italian Strategy of tension- Operation Gladio

1981 to 1986 Iran-Contra

and so on...

All historical fact.

[seemslikeadream]

37. sometimes it takes awhile to prove stuff

[EFerrari]

42. Of course it does. And the naysayers have the time differential

on their side.

Just like Ohio 2004.

We all know what happened in Ohio but there was a time lag when our concern could be discounted.

People remember the naysayers, they don't remember the convictions or the first hand accounts or Mr. Conyers' hearings or the GAO report.

They remember people calling us all nuts.

That's their loss.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

45. What happens

is that people derisively throw out the term "conspiracy theory" when they are unwilling to examine much beyond the official story line. Take into consideration who controls "the official story line" and it then appears that those who are so quick to throw out this "conspiracy theory" are even more quickly prone to swallowing state sponsored propaganda.

[EFerrari]

49. I believe you are exactly right. n/t

[Norrin Radd]

39. And the Business Plot, 1933.

Or has that one not been entirely proven?

[varkam]

54. The fact that historical facts were, at one time, conspiracy theories...

is not evidence at all for supporting the notion that X is also a conspiracy theory (where X equals September 11th, RFK, JFK, et cetera).

[moodforaday]

78. No, but it proves something else.

It proves that you cannot dismiss a theory just because it fits the popular notion of a conspiracy theory. IOW, you can't call something a conspiracy theory and act as if that proved it was false.

[varkam]

90. No, you can't.

Of course, you don't really need to in order to show that many conspiracy theories rely largely upon unfounded speculation, hearsay, retrofitting, and other tin-foil hattery.

[gollygee]

57. I don't believe *every* conspiracy theory, but the fact is that sometimes governments do conspire

and people do conspire. It happens. So in any given event, the "conspiracy theory" is one potential explanation.

[and-justice-for-all]

63. I think there is more truth to be had in Conspiracy Therories

than in the MSM. Not all of the content is going to be vaild, but more of it will be than what the MSM feeds people.

I think they are ok, they make you think about the possiblites and looking at things with a different perspective. I would not bank on them, but I do not discredit them either.

[and-justice-for-all]

64. I can not goto Dailykos...

because it is blocked here at work for some reason, yet Fox news is not..go figure.

could some one email, via DU, the story please...thanks.

[SidDithers]

74. And Bigfoot is real too!...

Sid

[Octafish]

86. Don Siegelman is the victim of a criminal conspiracy.

Rove and Bush's cronies manufactured evidence that put former Gov. Siegelman -- an innocent man and a political opponent -- in prison. They also stole an election from Gov. Siegelman.

Those are the facts. And they indicate just another example of the ongoing criminal enterprise that is the Bush "administration," benefactors of their own election fraud in 2000.

[victordrazen]

103. Good example.

That story has me infuriated

[Greyhound]

89. "The Business Plot"

Incontrovertible fact, and was really at least two conspiracies, one being the plot itself and the other being the fact the investigation was quashed and no charges were ever brought. These people made and very nearly carried out a military coup against the United States.

Yet the comfortably ignorant just keep on with their smug dismissals.

[defendandprotect]

97. ..but according to the moderators you're post is "taboo" and dungeoned . . . !!!

Ridiculous . . . !!!

What in the hell is it that they are so afraid of --- ???

[Lars39]

98. You beat me to it. Moved at 12:23am 4-12-08.

This was a half-way decent thread, too.

[varkam]

104. Well, we're terrified of the truth.

Obviously

[Beam Me Up]

108. Is that supposed to be funny?

You think this is a joke?

Let me give you this:

“September 11, 2001 seems destined to be the watershed event of
our lives and the greatest test for our democracy in our
lifetimes. The evidence of government complicity in the lead-up to
the events, the failure to respond during the event, and the
astounding lack of any meaningful investigation afterwards, as
well as the ignoring of evidence turned up by others that renders
the official explanation impossible, may signal the end of the
American experiment. It has been used to justify all manner of
measures to legalize repression at home and as a pretext for
behaving as an aggressive empire abroad. Until we demand an
independent, honest, and thorough investigation and accountability
for those whose action and inaction led to those events and the
cover-up, our republic and our Constitution remain in the gravest
danger.”

-- Lt. Col. Shelton Lankford, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), an attack
pilot with over 300 combat missions. During his 20 year military
career, Col. Lankford's decorations include the Distinguished
Flying Cross, and 32 awards of the Air Medal.

[varkam]

114. I'm convinced.

[victordrazen]

100. Why do we have "theories"?

from not believing what we are told by sources which are owned by just a few who are also profiting from the war. Anyone can go look at the Board of Directors of any major media and see their backgrounds tend to be in military/ military contractors/ Homeland Security, pharmaceutical companies, etc... These guys are not "journalists" or even entertainment people. There is a good chance there is a conflict of interest in the information we get. Then there is the "progressive" media who are funded by groups with links to the CIA, now tell me that does not influence what is produced. Then NPR is supposedly "progressive" but they are funded by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting which is now in the hands of the GOP. So, we try to figure out what we think IS happening and are ridiculed.

[alittlelark]

105. I don't like seeing this in the dungeon.....

It's kinda like "Impeachment is Off the Table".

Like any good shrink will tell you - "we need to get to the root of the problem".

[Sweet Pea]

128. This thread has to do with Idioticy

So the dungeon is where it belongs.

[Grateful for Hope]

107. Thank you for this excellent OP

Definitely food for thought.

[defendandprotect]

113. ...and how quickly that "few bad apples" crap gets pushed . . . WH is full of bad apples . . .

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

117. Isn't the Iraq War a conspiracy also? Simply, Intelligence was deliberately manipulated and

fabricated by members of this sociopath Administration to send us to war.

[Twist_U_Up]

123. Problem,Reaction,Solution.

[Bolo Boffin]

118. Proof of specific conspiracies is not proof of every conspiracy theory out there.

And no one here thinks conspiracies don't actually happen.

[defendandprotect]

135. Neither is it "disproof" of every conspiracy out there . . . !!!

[leftofthedial]

122. no conspiracy there

if it had been, it could never come out because so many people would have to be in on it and it would come out somehow, so since we think it was a conspiracy, that's proof that there was no conspiracy.

See?

[Perry Logan]

127. Do any historians believe "the history of the world...is the history of vast conspiracies"?

The fact that history is a series of big conspiracies seems to have utterly escaped the world's historians, in the same way the controlled demolition of the towers has escaped the world's structural engineers and architects. Conspiracy buffs need to explain this. Are historians all in on the plot, or are they just dumb?

[defendandprotect]

134. Eh . . . you mean the propaganda of white male history . . . are you kidding????

Slavery wasn't a conspiracy -- ?

Segregation, Inc. for 100 years -- ?

The theft of land from Native Americans -- ?

Notice the Constitution itself -- "Equality for All" . . . ?

Except Women, Native Americans -- ?

Voting rights only for white males who owned property -- ?

Patriarchy is of course a conspiracy -- it's fascism.

[Lithos]

159. Locking

Quite tangential to bring up year old threads.

Lithos
DU Moderator