The Passengers and the Planes

[DulceDecorum]

Some of you are aware of the thread entitled
The Pilots and the Planes.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
and
The Pilots and the Planes: Part 2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

In those two threads,
we examine the recorded fate of the planes
with the recorded fates of the pilots.

N 334AA Flight 11
Serial 22332 Issued 1/6/2000 Registration: Cancelled 1/14/2002
N 644AA Flight 77
Serial 24602 Issued 5/8/1991 Registration: Cancelled 1/14/2002
N 591UA Flight 93
Serial 28142 Issued 7/1/1996 Registration: Valid
N 612UA Flight 175
Serial 21873 Issued 1/18/1984 Registration: Valid
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acmain.htm

Sec. 47.41 - Duration and return of Certificate.
(a) Each Certificate of Aircraft Registration issued by the FAA under this subpart is effective, unless suspended or revoked, UNTIL THE DATE UPON WHICH --
(2) The registration is canceled at the written request of the holder of the certificate;
(3) THE AIRCRAFT IS TOTALLY DESTROYED OR SCRAPPED;
(b) The Certificate of Aircraft Registration, with the reverse side completed, must be returned to the FAA Aircraft Registry --
(3) Upon the termination of the registration, by the holder of the Certificate of Aircraft Registration in all other cases mentioned in paragraph (a) of this section.
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part47-41-FAR.shtml

But what happened to the passengers?
Well,
let us see what
the Social Security Death Index
http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi
has to say about that.

As marvelous a finding aid as it is, the SSDI does not include the names of everyone, even if they had a Social Security number (SNN). If relatives or the funeral home did not report the death to the Social Security Administration, or if the individual died before 1962 (when the records were computerized) then they probably will not appear in this database. The omission of an individual in this index does not indicate the person is still living. It simply means that there was no report of the person's death to Social Security Administration.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~rwguide/lesson10.htm

NOTE:
Some entries appear to be inconclusive.
In such cases, one or more entries have been placed within brackets.
You are STRONGLY ENCOURAGED to
search the database for yourself
BEFORE drawing any conclusions.

For the sake of clarity,
the data for each 911 plane is posted separately.

[DulceDecorum]

1. Flight 11 passengers & the SSDI

American Airlines #11
Boeing 767
7:45 am departed Boston for Los Angeles
8:45 am crashed into North Tower of the World Trade Center

Satam Al Suqami
Waleed M. Alshehri ALIVE
Wail Alshehri ALIVE
Mohamed Atta
Abdulaziz Alomari ALIVE

FLIGHT 11
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/A...

CREW
John Ogonowski, 52, Nothing found
First Officer Thomas McGuinness, 42 Nothing found
Barbara Arestegui, 38 Nothing found
Jeffrey Collman Nothing found
Sara Low, 28 27 Oct 1972 -- 11 Sep 2001
Karen Martin 6 people with that name died in 2001. None in September.
Kathleen Nicosia Nothing found
Betty Ong, 45 ELIZABETH ONG 11 Feb 1909 -- 05 May 2001
Jean Roger, 24 JOAN P ROGER 23 Aug 1940 -- 20 Apr 2001
Dianne Snyder, 42 DIANNE B SNYDER 06 Jul 1945 -- 25 Oct 2001
Madeline Sweeney, 35 MADELINE A SWEENEY17 Dec 1916 -- 09 Dec 2001 (MARY F SWEENEY 01 Jan 1929-11 Sep 2001)


PASSENGERS
Anna Williams Allison, 48 Nothing found
David Angell, 54 23 Mar 1960 -- 25 May 2001
Lynn Angell, 45 Nothing found
Seima Aoyama Nothing found
Myra Aronson, 52 Nothing found
Christine Barbuto, 32 Nothing found
Berry Berenson, 53 (BIRDIE BERENSON 15 Mar 1904 -- 22 Aug 2001)
Carolyn Beug, 48 Nothing found
Carol Bouchard, 43, (CAROLE J BOUCHARD 11 Jun 1940 -- 10 Jun 2001)
Robin Caplin Nothing Found
Neilie Casey, 32, Nothing found
Jeffrey Coombs, 42 18 Sep 1958 -- 11 Sep 2001
Tara Creamer, 30 30 Nov 1970 -- 11 Sep
Thelma Cuccinello, 71 THELMA R CUCCINELLO 01 Feb 1930 -- 11 Sep 2001
Patrick Currivan Nothing Found
Andrew Curry Green Nothing Found
Brian Dale, 43 BRIAN P DALE 23 Oct 1957 -- 11 Sep 2001
David DiMeglio (DAVID M DIMEGLIO 08 Feb 1967 -- 01 Mar 2002)
Donald Ditullio, 49 (DONALD D DITULLIO 03 Jun 1949-22 Jul 1996 DONALD DITULLIO 17 Mar 1909-09 Feb 2001 )
Albert Dominguez, 66 (ALBERT J DOMINGUEZ 12 Jul 1929-01 Jan 2001)
Alex Filipov, 70 ALEXANDER M FILIPOV 11 Apr 1931 -- 11 Sep 2001
Carol Flyzik, 40 CAROL A FLYZIK 13 Mar 1961 -- 11 Sep 2001
Paul Friedman, 45 PAUL J FRIEDMAN 13 Aug 1956 -- 11 Sep 2001
Karleton D.B. Fyfe, 31 KARLETON D FYFE 10 Feb 1970 -- 11 Sep 2001
Peter Gay, 54 Nothing Found
Linda George, 27 LINDA M GEORGE 11 Jun 1974 -- 11 Sep 2001
Edmund Glazer, 41 Nothing Found
Lisa Fenn Gordenstein, 41 Nothing Found
Paige Farley Hackel, 46 Nothing Found
Peter Hashem, 40, PETER P HASHEM 20 Mar 1961 -- 11 Sep 2001
Robert Hayes, 37 ROBERT E HAYES 09 Sep 1930 -- 11 Sep 2001
Ted Hennessy, 35 EDWARD R HENNESSY 01 Mar 1966 -- 11 Sep 2001
John Hofer (JOHN HOFER 10 Sep 1939 -- 24 Jul 2001)
Cora Holland, 52 Nothing Found
Nicholas Humber, 60 (NICHOLAS HUMBER 09 May 1882 -- Oct 1968)
John Jenkins (JOHN H JENKINS 16 Oct 1945 -- 04 Sep 2001)
Charles Jones, 48 (CHARLES L JONES 14 Jan 1960 -- 18 Sep 2001)
Robin Kaplan, 33, Nothing Found
Barbara Keating, 72 BARBARA A KEATING 23 Dec 1928 -- 11 Sep 2001 (PAUL H KEATING 04 Sep 1963 -- 11 Sep 2001)
David Kovalcin, 42 Nothing found
Judy Larocque, 50, Nothing Found
Jude Larson, 31 Nothing Found
Natalie Larson (NATALIE E LARSON 06 Jan 1950 -- 09 Sep 2000)
N. Janis Lasden, 46 Nothing Found
Daniel John Lee, 34 Nothing found
Daniel C. Lewin, 31 Nothing Found
Susan MacKay, 44 SUSAN K MACKAY 06 Jun 1937 -- 12 Sep 2001)
Chris Mello, 25 Nothing Found
Jeff Mladenik, 43 Nothing Found
Antonio Montoya Nothing Found
Carlos Montoya CARLOS M MONTOYA 01 Mar 1965 -- 11 Sep 2001
Laura Lee Morabito, 34 LAURA L MORABITO 04 Oct 1966 -- 11 Sep 2001
Mildred Naiman MILDRED NAIMAN 24 Mar 1920 -- 11 Sep 2001
Laurie Neira LAURIE NEIRA 08 Dec 1952 -- 11 Sep 2001
Renee Newell, 37 Nothing Found
Jacqueline Norton, 60 (JACQUELINE M NORTON 26 Mar 1923 -- 02 Jan 1996)
Robert Norton, 82 ROBERT G NORTON 11 May 1916 -- 11 Sep 2001
Jane Orth, 49 Nothing Found
Thomas Pecorelli, 31 THOMAS PECORELLI 08 Oct 1970 -- 11 Sep 2001
Sonia Morales Puopolo, 58 Nothing Found
David Retik Nothing Found
Philip Rosenzweig Nothing Found
Richard Ross, 58 RICHARD ROSS 29 Apr 1943 -- 11 Sep 2001
Jessica Sachs, 22 Nothing Found
Rahma Salie, 28 Nothing Found
Heather Smith, 30 (HEATHER L SMITH 09 Aug 1971 -- 06 Jun 2001 )
Douglas Stone, 54 Nothing Found
Xavier Suarez Nothing found
Michael Theodoridis, 32 Nothing found
James Trentini, 65 JAMES A TRENTINI 24 May 1936 -- 11 Sep 2001
Mary Trentini, 67 MARY B TRENTINI 11 Feb 1934 -- 11 Sep 2001
Mary Wahlstrom, 75, MARY A WAHLSTROM 19 Apr 1923 -- 11 Sep 2001
Kenneth Waldie, 46 KENNETH E WALDIE 13 May 1955 -- 11 Sep 2001
John Wenckus, 46 (JOHN WENCKUS 11 Sep 1888 -- Mar 1964)
Candace Lee Williams, 20 (CANDACE L WILLIAMS 10 Jan 1986 -- 23 Sep 2000)
Christopher Zarba, 47 Nothing Found

[DulceDecorum]

2. Flight 175 passengers & the SSDI

United Airlines #175
Boeing 767
7:58 am departed Boston for Los Angeles
9:05 am crashed into South Tower of the World Trade Center

HIJACKERS
Marwan Al-Shehhi
Fayez Ahmed
Ahmed Alghamdi
Hamza Alghamdi
Mohald Alshehri ALIVE

FLIGHT 175
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/u...

CREW
Capt. Victor Saracini, 51, VICTOR J SARACINI 29 Aug 1950 -- 11 Sep 2001
Michael Horrocks MICHAEL R HORROCKS 24 Mar 1963 -- 11 Sep 2001
Robert J. Fangman (ROBERT J FANGMAN 02 Feb 1896 -- 30 Dec 1990)
Amy N. Jarret, 28 AMY N JARRET 03 Oct 1972 -- 11 Sep
Amy R. King Nothing Found
Kathryn L. Laborie Nothing Found
Alfred G. Marchand Nothing Found
Michael C. Tarrou Nothing found
Alicia N. Titus Nothing Found

PASSENGERS
Alona Avraham, 30, Nothing Found
Garnet "Ace" Bailey, 53 Nothing Found
Mark Bavis, 31 MARK L BAVIS 13 Mar 1970 -- 11 Sep 2001
Graham Berkeley, 37 Nothing Found
Touri Bolourchi, 69 TOURAN H BOLOURCHI 10 Jun 1931 -- 11 Sep 2001
Klaus Bothe, 31, Nothing Found
Daniel Brandhorst, Nothing Found
David Brandhorst, 3, Nothing Found
John Cahill (Michael John) Nothing Found
Christoffer Carstanjen, 33 Nothing Found
John Corcoran "Jay" Corcoran, 44 Nothing Found
Dorothy Dearaujo, 82 Nothing Found
Gloria Debarrera Nothing Found
Lisa Frost, 22 Nothing Found
Ronald Gamboa, 33 Nothing Found
Lynn Goodchild, 25 LYNN C GOODCHILD 27 May 19 -- 11 Sep 2001
The Rev. Francis E. Grogan, 76, FRANCIS E GROGAN 13 May 1925 -- 11 Sep 2001
Carl Hammond, 37 CARL M HAMMOND 04 Oct 1963 -- 11 Sep 2001
Peter Hanson, 32, Nothing Found
Susan Hanson, 35 Nothing Found
Christine Hanson, 3, Nothing Found
Gerald Hardacre GERALD F HARDACRE 21 Nov 1939 -- 11 Sep 2001
Eric Hartono Nothing Found
James E. Hayden, 47 JAMES E HAYDEN 29 Mar 1954 -- 11 Sep 2001
Herbert Homer,48, HERBERT W HOMER 05 Feb 1953 -- 11 Sep 2001
Robert Jalbert, 61 Nothing Found
Ralph Kershaw, 52 Nothing Found
Heinrich Kimmig, 43 Nothing Found
Brian Kinney, 29 (BRIAN T KINNEY 09 Aug 1947 -- 18 Jun 200)
Robert LeBlanc, 70 ROBERT G LEBLANC 28 Oct 1930 -- 11 Sep 2001
Maclovio "Joe" Lopez Jr., 41 MACLOVIO LOPEZ 29 Apr 1960 -- 11 Sep 2001
Marianne MacFarlane Nothing Found
Louis Neil Mariani, 59 Nothing Found
Juliana Valentine McCourt, 4 Nothing Found
Ruth McCourt, 24 Nothing Found
Wolfgang Menzel, 60 Nothing Found
Shawn Nassaney, 25 Nothing Found
Patrick Quigley, 40 PATRICK J QUIGLEY 25 Feb 1961 -- 11 Sep 2001
Frederick Rimmele Nothing Found
James M. Roux, 42 Nothing Found
Jesus Sanchez, 45 (JESUS R SANCHEZ 04 Jul 1956 -- 04 Apr 2001)
Kathleen Shearer KATHLEEN SHEARER 11 Mar 1940 -- 11 Sep 2001
Robert Shearer ROBERT M SHEARER 01 Mar 1938 -- 11 Sep 2001
Jane Simpkin, 35, Nothing Found
Brian D. Sweeney, 38 BRIAN D SWEENEY 10 Aug 1963 -- 11 Sep 2001
Timothy Ward, 38 Nothing Found
William Weems Nothing Found

[DulceDecorum]

3. Flight 77 passengers & the SSDI

American Airlines #77
Boeing 757
8:10 am departed Washington Dulles for Los Angeles
9:39 am crashed into the Pentagon

HIJACKERS
Khalid Al-Midhar MAY BE ALIVE
Majed Moqed
Nawaq Alhamzi
Salem Alhamzi ALIVE
Hani Hanjour

FLIGHT 77
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/A...


CREW
Charles Burlingame CHARLES F BURLINGAME 12 Sep 1949 -- 11 Sep 2001
David Charlebois (DAVID J CHARLEBOIS 10 Oct 1960 -- 06 May 1993 DAVID CHARLEBOIS 01 Jul 1963 -- Aug 1984)
Michele Heidenberger Nothing found
Jennifer Lewis, 38 Nothing found
Kenneth Lewis, 49, Nothing Found
Renee May, 39 Nothing Found

PASSENGERS
Paul Ambrose, 32, Nothing Found
Yeneneh Betru, 35 YENENEH BETRU 21 Jan 1966 -- 11 Sep 2001
M.J. Booth MARY J BOOTH 18 Nov 1936 -- 11 Sep 2001
Bernard Brown, 11 Nothing Found
Suzanne Calley, 42 Nothing found
William Caswell WILLIAM E CASWELL 22 Jun 1947 -- 11 Sep 2001
Sarah Clark, 65 Nothing Found
James Debeuneure, 58 Nothing Found
Rodney Dickens, 11 Nothing Found
Eddie Dillard (EDGAR A DILLARD 13 Oct 1940 -- 03 Sep 2001)
Charles Droz Nothing Found
Barbara Edwards, 58 Nothing Found
Charles S. Falkenberg, 45 Nothing Found
Zoe Falkenberg, 8 ZOE E FALKENBERG 08 Nov 1992 -- 11 Sep 2001
Dana Falkenberg, 3 DANA C FALKENBERG 21 Jul 1998 -- 11 Sep 2001
Joe Ferguson (JOSEPH L FERGUSON 19 Sep 1980 -- 10 Sep 2001)
Wilson "Bud" Flagg WILSON F FLAGG 26 Oct 1938 -- 11 Sep 2001
Dee Flagg (DARLENE M FLAGG 07 Apr 1959 -- 17 May 2002)
Richard Gabriel Nothing Found
Ian Gray, 55 IAN J GRAY 01 Sep 1946 -- 11 Sep 2001
Stanley Hall, 68 STANLEY R HALL 14 Apr 1933 -- 11 Sep 2001
Bryan Jack, 48 Nothing Found
Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43 Nothing Found
Ann Judge, 49, ANN C JUDGE 28 Dec 1951 -- 11 Sep 2001
Chandler Keller, 29, CHANDLER R KELLER 08 Oct 1971 -- 11 Sep 2001
Yvonne Kennedy Nothing Found
Norma Khan, 45 Nothing Found
Karen A. Kincaid, 40 Nothing Found
Norma Langsteuerle Nothing Found
Dong Lee Nothing Found
Dora Menchaca, 45 Nothing Found
Christopher Newton, 38, Nothing Found
Barbara Olson, 45 Nothing Found
Ruben Ornedo, 39 Nothing Found
Robert Penniger, 63 Nothing Found
Lisa Raines, 42 LISA J RAINES 30 Dec 1958 -- 11 Sep 2001
Todd Reuben, 40 Nothing Found
John Sammartino Nothing Found
Diane Simmons Nothing Found
George Simmons Nothing Found
Mari-Rae Sopper Nothing Found
Bob Speisman, 47 ROBERT S SPEISMAN 09 Aug 1953 -- 11 Sep 2001
Hilda Taylor Nothing Found
Leonard Taylor (Sank with the Titanic at age 23)
Leslie A. Whittington, 45, Nothing Found
John Yamnicky, 71 JOHN D YAMNICKY 08 Jun 1930 -- 11 Sep 2001
Vicki Yancey VICKI L YANCEY 14 Jan 1957 -- 11 Sep 2001
Shuyin Yang Nothing Found
Yuguag Zheng Nothing Found

[DulceDecorum]

4. Flight 93 passengers & the SSDI

United Airlines #93
Boeing 757
8:01 am departed Newark, New Jersey, for San Francisco
10:10 am crashed in Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania

HIJACKERS
Saeed Alghamdi ALIVE
Ahmed Alhaznawi
Ahmed Alnami ALIVE
Ziad Jarrahi

FLIGHT 93
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/u...

CREW
Jason Dahl, 43 Nothing Found
Leroy Homer, 36 Nothing Found
Lorraine Bay Nothing Found
Sandra Bradshaw, 38 Nothing Found
Wanda Green Nothing Found
CeeCee Lyles Nothing Found
Deborah Welsh Nothing Found

PASSENGERS
Christian Adams Nothing Found
Todd E. Beamer 11 Sep 1968 -- 10 Jun 1997
Alan Beaven, 48 Nothing Found
TODD E BEAMER 11 Sep 1968 -- 10 Jun 1997
Mark Bingham, 31 Nothing Found
Deora Bodley, 20 Nothing Found
Marion Britton Nothing Found
Thomas E. Burnett Jr., 38, Nothing Found
William Cashman WILLIAM J CASHMAN 06 Mar 1941-- 11 Sep 2001
Georgine Corrigan Nothing Found
Joseph Deluca JOSEPH F DELUCA 05 Apr 1949 -- 11 Sep 2001
Patrick Driscoll PATRICK J DRISCOLL 06 Dec 1930 -- 11 Sep 2001
Patrick Joseph Driscoll was a retired research director, Bell Communications Confirmed dead, United Flight 93 - Pennsylvania, airline passenger.

Driscoll’s wife, Maureen, sons Stephen, 41, Patrick, 40, Christopher, 32, and daughter, Pamela Gould, 35, have been able to draw some comfort from the outpouring of love and profound respect for their father. They called the outpouring of love and emotion a "real tribute to his memory."
http://examiner.gmnews.com/News/2001/0920/Front_Page/01...

Stephen Patrick Driscoll, 38, Lake Carmel, N.Y. Was a police officer, New York Police Department Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building

Edward Felt, 41, Nothing Found
Colleen Fraser COLLEEN L FRASER 29 Jul 1950 -- 11 Sep 2001
Andrew Garcia (ANDREW V GARCIA 02 Jul 1999 -- 18 Sep 2001)
Jeremy Glick, 31 Nothing found
Not to be confused with the son of Barry Glick.
Barry Glick (01 Oct 1945 -- 11 Sep 2001) is said to have in the WTC. His son Jeremy has had words with O'Reilly.
Lauren Grandcolas Nothing Found
Donald F. Green, 52, Nothing Found
Linda Gronlund Nothing Found
Richard Guadagno, 38, RICHARD J GUADAGNO 26 Sep 1962 -- 11 Sep 2001
Toshiya Kuge Nothing Found
Waleska Martinez Nothing Found
Nicole Miller Nothing Found
Mark Rothenberg MARK D ROTHENBERG 24 Feb 1949 -- 11 Sep 2001
Christine Snyder, 32, Nothing Found
John Talignani JOHN M TALIGNANI 31 Aug 1927 -- 11 Sep 2001
Honor Wainio Nothing Found

[Bolo Boffin]

5. Oh, no. Not again.

Dulce.

You have been told repeatedly that you are misusing these databases.

Telephone numbers have been posted so that anyone can call the FAA and see that you are misusing these databases.

Yet you continue to post all of this personal information, claiming that it proves something that it doesn't prove.

The registrations may be listed as Valid in the database, but the registrations are no longer effective. Why? Because all four planes were destroyed on September 11th, 2001.

Look at the law that you quote every time you post this info:

Sec. 47.41 - Duration and return of Certificate.
(a) Each Certificate of Aircraft Registration issued by the FAA under this subpart is effective, unless suspended or revoked, UNTIL THE DATE UPON WHICH --
(2) The registration is canceled at the written request of the holder of the certificate;
(3) THE AIRCRAFT IS TOTALLY DESTROYED OR SCRAPPED;
(b) The Certificate of Aircraft Registration, with the reverse side completed, must be returned to the FAA Aircraft Registry --
(3) Upon the termination of the registration, by the holder of the Certificate of Aircraft Registration in all other cases mentioned in paragraph (a) of this section.
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part47-41-FAR.shtml

It says that the certificate is effective until the date upon which the aircraft is totally destroyed. Do you see anything about notification of the database being required? No.

Therefore, the four registrations of the hijacked planes are no longer effective, and have been so since 9/11/01. It doesn't matter what the database says.

It doesn't matter what the database says.

It doesn't matter what the database says.

It doesn't matter what the database says.

It doesn't matter what the database says.

It doesn't matter what the database says.

It doesn't matter what the database says.

It doesn't matter what the database says.

The registrations are no longer effective. Period.

The same error you make with the FAA database, you are making with the Social Security database. It doesn't matter whether you can find a death record there or not.

It doesn't matter whether you can find a death record there or not.

It doesn't matter whether you can find a death record there or not.

It doesn't matter whether you can find a death record there or not.

It doesn't matter whether you can find a death record there or not.

It doesn't matter whether you can find a death record there or not.

It doesn't matter whether you can find a death record there or not.

It doesn't matter whether you can find a death record there or not.

The passengers of those four hijacked planes are dead. Their bodies were found where their flights crashed. Their remains were returned to their families. They were buried.

They are dead. The planes are destroyed.

Quit wasting our time.

[DulceDecorum]

6. And at least seven of the hijackers are STILL ALIVE

And if they managed THAT
then why do you keep insisting that
ALL the red blooded Americans on those flights died?

Besides which,
all I have done is run the CNN passenger list
against the SSDI database.

The omission of an individual in this index does not indicate the person is still living. It simply means that there was no report of the person's death to Social Security Administration.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~rwguide/lesson10.htm

Ain't my fault that
certain passengers never had their deaths reported
to the Social Security Administration.
Although,
some of those people
had bones that were tougher than paper.
Even the paper that was in Satam al Suqami's passport.

Damn it!!
Boloboffin,
Americans have been to the moon and back.
How can you believe that
a piddly little hijacking would kill ALL those AMERICAN passengers??

Where is your patriotism?
Why do you want all those passengers dead?
Are you in cahoots with Osama bin Forgotten?

[Bolo Boffin]

7. No, they aren't, Dulce.

We've been down this path as well.

You have discovered people with the same names as the hijackers who are still alive. Whoop-dee-doo.

The hijackers are all dead. They died when they crashed the planes they hijacked.

Your sophistry is getting, oh, so old. I would that I had it in me to bring those passengers and the other victims of 9/11 back to life. I wish I could go back in time and snatch Bush baldheaded in an attempt to force him into taking the August 6, 2001 PDB seriously.

But we must deal with reality, Dulce. They are all dead. You do wish to deal with reality in a sober and honest fashion, don't you?

I have my doubts.

From this latest message, you FULL WELL KNOW that not being listed in the database isn't proof of being alive. You quote the disclaimer, Dulce. YOU KNOW THIS, yet you continue to suggest that the passengers are still alive.

Unless you have some other point in mind when you scour the SSDI and drag back your "Not listed" list. If you do, I wish you would hurry up and get to it, Dulce. How long must we wait for you to get to the point?

Get to the point. Why do you consider this information relevant?

Why?

For the love of anything you consider holy, why?

[RH]

8. No. 7 hijackers are definitely not alive

The people thus refered to as still alive were definitely not in the USA at any time near to September 9/11. It is therefore incontrovertibly a malicious libel to refer to them as hijackers and those who choose, for reaons best known to themselves, to continue to neglect the significance of that simple consideration thereby prove, at best, nothing but their own deliberate ignorance.

[DulceDecorum]

12. Mush

and piffles.

Pilot Accused of Training Hijackers
British prosecutors today accused an Algerian pilot arrested outside London of having trained four of the hijackers from the Sept. 11 attacks.
Law enforcement sources tell ABCNEWS' Brian Ross the name of Latfi Raissi was found written on a document in a car left by hijackers at Dulles Airport outside Washington, where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon took off from.
The 27-year-old licensed commercial jet pilot was then tracked by the FBI and Scotland Yard to a flat near Heathrow airport, where Raissi was taken into custody on Sept. 21. He was re-arrested today on an international warrant issued Thursday night at the request of U.S. authorities.
At a court hearing in London this morning, prosecutors said Raissi was the "lead instructor" in charge of making sure the hijackers were "capable and trained" for their suicide mission. Raissi's lawyer insisted his client innocent.
"He adamantly denies any involvement in the recent appalling tragedies," defense attorney Richard Egan told reporters. "And he is confident that he will be absolved of any involvement."
According to authorities, Raissi made several visits to the United States in June and July, including a June trip to Las Vegas when he reportedly took a flight to Arizona with one of the hijakcers. Raissi lived in Phoenix in the late 1990s and prosecutors said four of the hijackers went to the same flight school he did and that there is video of Raissi with some of them.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_Inv...

Law enforcement sources tell ABCNEWS' Brian Ross the name of Latfi Raissi was found written on a document in a car left by hijackers at Dulles Airport outside Washington, where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon took off from.

Double piffles;

However, in April 2002 a judge dismisses all charges against him. US officials originally said, “They had video of him with Hani Hanjour, who allegedly piloted the plane that crashed into the Pentagon; records of phone conversations between the two men; evidence that they had flown a training plane together; and evidence that Raissi had met several of the hijackers in Las Vegas. It turned out, the British court found, that the video showed Raissi with his cousin, not Mr. Hanjour, that Raissi had mistakenly filled in his air training logbook and had never flown with Hanjour, and that Raissi and the hijackers were not in Las Vegas at the same time. The US authorities never presented any phone records showing conversations between Raissi and Hanjour. It appears that in this case the US authorities handed over all the information they had… ”
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a09...

United States v. Lofti Raissi aka Fabrice Vincent Algier
THE GRAND JURY CHARGES:
COUNT 1
On or about June 19, 2001, in the District of Arizona and elsewhere, defendant LOTFI RAISSI, in a matter within the jurisdiction of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), a governmental agency of the United States of America, did knowingly and willfully make a materially false, fictitious and fraudulent statementand representation, by not disclosing any information regarding his previous knee surgery on FAA Form 8500-8, a medical certificate, which defendant completed and signed. The failure to disclose the information regarding medical history is material as it effects the ability of the examining flight surgeon to conduct a proper and thorough early examination.
In violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1001 and 2.

On or about June 19, 2001, in the District of Arizona and elsewhere, defendant
LOTFI RAISSI, in a matter within the jurisdiction of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), a governmental agency of the United States of America, did knowingly and willfully make a materially false, fictitious and fraudulent statement and representation, by not disclosing that defendant had a 1993 criminal conviction for theft, which carried a maximum penalty of ten (10) years, from the Uxbridge Magistrate's Court in England. The failure to disclose the information was material as the defendant was convicted under a false identity (Fabrice Vincent Algier) and the theft occurred at a London airport. The proper disclosure of the information would have led to substantial follow up investigation on the part of the FAA.
In violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1001 and 2.

A TRUE BILL

FOREPERSON OF THE GRAND JURY
Date: October 9, 2001
PAUL K. CHARLTON
United States Attorney

And pooh.

RH says:
.... It is therefore incontrovertibly a malicious libel to refer to them as hijackers and those who choose, for reaons best known to themselves, to continue to neglect the significance of that simple consideration thereby prove, at best, nothing but their own deliberate ignorance.

Spot on.

[Bolo Boffin]

15. What does that have to do with anything?

Mr. Rassi was suspected of colluding with the hijackers based on some evidence. It became apparent that the investigators had misinterpreted the evidence and Mr. Rassi was not charged with said collusion. In the course of investigating, some unrelated minor problems came to light and he was charged with that.

What does that have to do with anything?

[DulceDecorum]

16. T'was but a 911 SNAFU

Boston FBI strikes again.

In June, Hanjour was back in Phoenix, tutored on flight simulators at the Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix by an Algerian pilot named Lotfi Raissi, whom the FBI believes was one of the masterminds of the plot. Raissi also taught Flight 93 pilot Ziad Jarrah. Each paid $300 for three months of unlimited simulator time.
"(Raissi) and the other guys usually came in at night to practice," said Sylvia Stinson, former director of the school. "They came a lot. But there were no red flags. They were polite, and they paid their bills."
British authorities arrested Raissi in Colnbrook, England in September after the hijack attacks. They confiscated flight manuals for Boeing 757 and 767 jets. Flight 77 was on a 757, as was Flight 93; the others were 767s.
Authorities believe Raissi and Hanjour made several trips to Las Vegas together, sometimes at the same time as pilots from the other flights were there as well. It's there that the final details of the plan were likely worked out. The FBI has a videotape of Raissi and Hanjour returning to Phoenix from Las Vegas by plane on June 23.
http://billstclair.com/911timeline/2001/coxnews101501.h...

Saved by the gavel.

In contrast to initial coverage of Raissi’s arrest and imprisonment, the magistrate’s decision attracted little comment because of the political embarrassment it has meant for the government and authorities.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/feb2002/pilo-f15.shtm...

This is the very same FBI
who still hangs up pictures of living innocent men on their website.

BOLOboffin,
aren't you ever going to comment on the passengers themselves?
Surely you recall
David Angell, 54.
The SSDI produced a few results for persons with that name

but it really does not look like our Dave had his death reported to the SSA.
I wonder why that was.

In loving memory of David Angell, was in the two-part episode "Don Juan In Hell" from Frasier
Spouse: Lynn Edwards
Before turning to writing for television, he worked as a methods analyst at an engineering company and then at an insurance firm in Rhode Island
Served in the army and at the Pentagon in Washington DC until 1972
On September 11th, 2001, David Angell and his wife were both killed when the plane that they were on, American Airlines flight #11 en route from Boston to Los Angeles, was hijacked and deliberately flown into the World Trade Tower in New York City. They were returning home to California after attending a family wedding in Cape Cod, Massachusetts
His brother (Most Reverend Kenneth A. Angell) is the Roman Catholic bishop for the archdiocese of Burlington, Vermont
His father's name was Henry. In David's script for Archie Bunker, parts of the episode took place in a store called "Henry's" which was named after his father
Entered the army upon graduation from Providence College and served at the Pentagon until 1972
Angell wrote 10 episodes of Cheers and won an Emmy for an episode that first broadcast on November 17, 1983 titled "Old Flames"
Formed Grub Street Productions with partners Peter Casey and David Lee
On TV's Frasier, the show's featured radio station KACL 780 AM was concocted from the first letter from each of Frasier's producer's surnames: David Angell, Peter Casey, and David Lee
In 1994, David Angell received an Honorary Doctorate from his alma mater, Providence College. He received a Bachelors degree in English from Providence College in 1969.
http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/PersonDetail/perso...

David and Lynn Angell were passengers on American Airlines Flight 11 from Boston to Los Angeles, which was hijacked by terrorists on Sept. 11, 2001, and crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center. A foundation was set up in David and Lynn Angell’s name after their death. Contributions can be sent to The Angell Foundation, c/o Perry Oretzky, 10880 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 920, Los Angeles, CA 90024
http://www.wga.org/pr/Awards/2002/davies-award2002.html

Oh well.
I guess that Perry Oretzky just doesn't give a damn.
Anyhow,
it is nice to see a man of the cloth
attest to the visions of one GW Bush.

As I watched the first plane crash into the World Trade Tower on television, I didn’t think they were on that plane. I had been with them the day before for a family wedding on Cape Cod, where I had stayed the weekend with them in their home. We had a great time. They brought me to the airport on September tenth, and I flew back to Burlington. I knew that they were leaving the following day to go back to California, but they usually took a later plane.
http://www.vermontcatholic.org/September11th/ThisRock.h...

What channel was that?

[MercutioATC]

19. How does ANY of this prove that the hijackers are still alive?

I really don't see the "proof". Why do you claim they're alive?

[DulceDecorum]

23. You do know how

to use a telephone.
Call up the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Washington DC.
They are listed.
You say they are dead, then YOU prove them dead.

State Department spokesman Frederick Jones said Friday he did not know if the department has contacted the Saudi Arabian government or the hijackers' families about DNA samples.
http://www.911review.org/Wget/www.delawareonline.com/ne...

Get the DNA samples
and PROVE that the hijackers were related to those Saudi families
and also that the hijackers are dead.
We know that the Offical Story
claims that to have hijacker remains lying around.

... Following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Chakraborty acceded to the request of a family whose son had been a passenger on United Flight 93 (the thwarted terrorist mission brought down in Pennsylvania). "We had a specimen that consisted of at least two individuals' remains, one of which was their son's," he explains. "The family was reluctant to bury it with his other body parts if it contained any remains that might belong to a hijacker." Chakraborty determined, with 95 percent certainty, that the unidentified tissue did not belong to anyone of Middle Eastern ancestry.
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/crimeseen/article/0,20642,...

Well, that rules out Adam AND Eve.
And all the descendants of that Iraqi man Abraham.
But it does not rule out the possibility that the son was a chimera.
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_838312.html?menu=n...

MercutioATc,
after the Saudi Arabian Embassy gets through with you,
maybe you could let the BCC have a go,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.st...
before explaining WHY



The THREE photographs of al-Mihdhar
released by the FBI
do not appear to be the same person.

[MercutioATC]

24. Yes, but YOU'RE claiming they're ALIVE. Do you have proof or not?

Or is your "they're alive" position based solely on the difficulty of confirming the death of foreigh nationals?

[DulceDecorum]

26. You are claiming they are dead. PROVE IT.

or is your position simply based on reports
that RH routinely ridicules as being sloppy?

[MercutioATC]

34. They're dead because they crashed planes.

That's based on a comprehensive view of the events of 9/11...and elimination of the other possibilities. Why do you believe they're still alive?

I can't prove Elvis is dead, either, but I'm not claiming I saw him in a 7-11 in Tennessee. I believe the reports.

...I'll take your response to mean that you have no proof that they are alive. Is that about accurate?

[DulceDecorum]

37. Sez who?

According to the FAA,
the two American Airlines planes were destroyed on January 14, 2002.
According to the FAA, the two United Airlines planes continue to maintain valid registrations.
According to the BTS, some of those planes never took off.
And we still do not know how the heck the hijackers got from Portland to Logan.

You are getting your information from the Boston FBI,
who are KNOWN to frame innocent people,
fling them in jail,
and let them rot there for 30-plus years.

Come up with independently verifiable EVIDENCE.
We have had it to our back teeth with hearsay.
Right about now we want clear concise explanations
from people who are not wearing medals they got out of a pawn shop.

Published on Friday, December 14, 2001 in the Boston Globe
WASHINGTON - President Bush yesterday invoked executive privilege to block a congressional subpoena exploring abuses in the Boston FBI office, prompting the chairman of a House committee to lambaste his fellow Republicans and triggering what one congressman said is the start of ''a constitutional confrontation.''
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1214-01.htm

[MercutioATC]

40. "Had it to our back teeth with hearsay"???

What evidence do YOU have? Everything you have is "hearsay". I'm getting my information from the only organization with all of the information. Yes, I think it's important for that information to be made public, but I've yet to see anything credible that contradicts the majority of what we've been told.

I've made the plea before. Give me something credible to look at and I'll be happy to review my positions. What I've seen so far is nothing more than conclusions based on sketchy or misinterpreted data and the rantings of laypersons looking at a few pictures. If this really IS a MIHOP situation, SOMEBODY should be able to present a coherent argument supported by physical evidence.

So, how about it? You've claimed that one of the United jets has been seen flying out of O'Hare but you refused to say by whom. I'd consider that to be enough to cast the entire "official story" into doubt. Wanna disclose your source? Wanna do what I did and make it available for everybody to independently verify?

The ball is in your court.

[DulceDecorum]

52. The ball is in your court.

I get my info from databases which you sneer at.
You get your info from Boston FBI
at which we,
and Colleen Rowley,
look askance.

`60 MINUTES' REPORT ON THE DEATH OF VINCE FOSTER (House of Representatives - October 26, 1995)

Sixth, there were no fingerprints on the gun. Get this: The gun was in
his hand, and there were no fingerprints on the gun. The FBI said they
probably, get this, `melted off in the heat.' And yet when they took
the gun apart, they found fingerprints there from the time the gun was
made at the factory.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r104:1:./temp/~r1...

[MercutioATC]

60. Neither of us can prove whether the hijackers are are alive or not

definitively. We seem to have established that. Since you're unwilling to take the lead here, care to point me in a direction? You say that the ball is in my court. Define the ball and I'll take a swipe.

By the way, I don't "sneer" at the databases you cite. I just read the disclaimers. Even THEY admit that they're not complete (and, thanks to many people here, we understand how and why they're incomplete).

[DulceDecorum]

67. Nevertheless, the alleged hijackers

continue to breathe.
And I have provided links.

You,
as usual,
have provided nothing of value.

[MercutioATC]

70. You've provided conjecture, not proof. Anybody can do that.

"Links" are just that...links. You've provided some entertaining links and some baffling links (that didn't seem to deal with the given issue at all), but you HAVE provided links. I think we can all agree on that.

I'm comfortable saying that I have no direct evidence that the hijackers are dead. Because no definitive proof of their disposition exists (or been made public) I've had to use other proof. That proof, specifically, is the impossibility of any argument that would suggest that hijackers weren't involved (aside from the "remote-control" theory. I have no direct proof that that couldn't have happened, though i think it unlikely.).

Are you willing to make the same admission?

[DulceDecorum]

73. Are the passengers dead?

How do you know?
And how are you making out with the cotton balls?

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[regnaD kciN]

85. The level of absurdity in this argument...

...can best be pointed out by a parallel event.

In the mid-to-late '60s, the Los Angeles Dodgers had a middle infielder named John Kennedy. What if someone at the time were to argue that this proves that President Kennedy survived the assassination attempt in Dallas? After all, the president's name was John Kennedy, and, a few years after his supposed assassination, you could call the Dodger front office and confirm that John Kennedy was alive and a member of their organization. Anyone convinced by that argument?

[DulceDecorum]

86. ...rather interesting.

You bring up the fact that
there were TWO men
BOTH with the name of John Kennedy.

Very good.

Let us extrapolate that.
TWO men
BOTH with the same hijacker name.
How shall we ever be able to tell them apart?
(This is where the Social Security number comes in.)

Ryan Allen (pictured, left), 19, turned up on a government list that includes Osama bin Laden and members of al-Qaida.
<snip>
That was enough to pique Allen's curiosity. Apparently when Allen's Social Security number was entered in the computer, it came up as Ramzi Bin al-Shibh (pictured, right), one of the masterminds of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
Bin al-Shibh is on a U.S. Treasury list of so-called blocked persons, including terrorists. Financial institutions check this in part to make sure someone opening a bank account is not doing it to fund terrorism.
http://www.theomahachannel.com/news/3026399/detail.html

The dealership called police, who called the FBI, which said the matter did not have a high priority because al-Shibh was arrested two years ago in Pakistan, Allen said.
<snip>
Allen has contacted the U.S. Treasury, the Social Security office, his credit union and lawyers. The only thing he knows for sure is that no one has used his Social Security number to open new accounts in his name.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/22/national/main...

Oh dear.
I guess we can't count on those Social Security Numbers either.

Can someone please tell me HOW
Ramzi Bin al-Shibh,
one of the masterminds of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks
managed to acquire a United States Social Security Number
in his own name?

In order to acquire a valid Social Security Number,
you need to fill out certain paperwork.
And the SSA checks up on your answers,
BEFORE they issue you with an SS number.

"This gets stranger and stranger," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., one of the senators investigating the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. "Why we were able to keep Atta's roommate out, but not Atta and the rest of the terrorists, is beyond me."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/06/attack/main51...

Ramzi Bin al-Shibh
was UNABLE to get a visa
EVER
yet he shows up on the Social Security Adminstration database?
Under his own name?

In other words,
if you run the name RAMZI BIN AL-SHIBH
through the SSA database,
you WILL get a VALID Social Security Number.
If you run a certain number through the SSA database,
you WILL get the record attached to Ramzi Bin al Shibh.
Where Ryan Allen comes in, we do not know.

Allen was not able to buy the car even though al-Shibh had been arrested two years ago in Pakistan. No one was able to explain how the error occurred.
http://www.govexec.com/features/0704-15/0704-15s4s1.htm

And there you have it, folks:
the mantra of September 11
"NOBODY WAS ABLE TO EXPLAIN HOW THE ERROR OCCURED."

[MrSammo1]

87. Something easier?

Try to contact the relatives of those passengers that dies on the flights? Hmmmmmmm?

[MercutioATC]

92. What if they're all government "plants", though?

Hmmmmmm....??

Seriously, I agree with you. Talk to the families. Todd Beamer is one of the more high-profile passengers. I've met his best friend who came to a dedication ceremony at the facility where I work. His wife has been interviewed numerous times. The colleges he went to have formally memorialized his death and the town he lived in has dedicated their new post office to him.

...but he's a government fabrication

[DulceDecorum]

94. You said it

and for once I am tempted to agree with you.

MercutioATC,
do you know that most CTs actually believe
in the existence of something called
the Witness Security Program?

The Witness Security Program was authorized by the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 and amended by the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984. Since its inception, more than 7,500 witnesses and over 9,500 family members have entered the Program and have been protected, relocated and given new identities by the Marshals Service.
<snip>
Witnesses and their families typically get new identities with authentic documentation. Housing, medical care, job training and employment can also be provided. Subsistence funding to cover basic living expenses is also provided to the witnesses until they become self-sufficient in the relocation area.
http://www.usdoj.gov/marshals/witsec /

Give them new identities?
All 7,500 witnesses and over 9,500 family members?
What kind of a fool would I have to be to buy THAT story??


Or this one?
http://www.usdoj.gov/marshals/history/civilian/1967a.ht...
which honestly deserves the title
"When citizens attack."

Apparently the 35,000 citizens were
"armed with limp flowers and sturdy convictions." .....
Hidden inside the Pentagon and other government buildings were five to six thousand Army troops armed with rifles and bayonets. .....
When the demonstration permit expired at midnight, Marshals began arresting any demonstrators who so much as touched the soldiers.

Yeah, right.
I am expected to believe that six thousand troops
HID
within the Pentagon.
The very same Pentagon that Osama bin Laden attacked
as a gesture of defiance
AGAINST
the people who were demonstrating outside.

Sheesh.
It looks like the terrorists won - on October 21, 1967.

[MercutioATC]

99. Agree with what?

Are you still claiming that Todd Beamer didn't really exist?

[MrSammo1]

97. 9/11

if in fact nearly 3,000 people were killed and it was the government behind it, do you doubt that they would not kill a few more people?

If not simply relocate these people?

[MercutioATC]

98. My point is that they DIDN'T, as proven by people like Lisa Beamer.

Nobody's gone missing as far as I can tell. Some of the families have been quite vocal, in fact. If you're claiming that the family members of the passengers have been hidden or otherwise silenced, you're going to have to explain yourself. The evidence just doesn't support it.

[MrSammo1]

101. There is

Ellen Mariani

[DulceDecorum]

102. Once again, we are in agreement.

http://lisabeamer.com/bio.htm

MercutioATC says:
Nobody's gone missing as far as I can tell.

[MrSammo1]

107. That's why

Ellen has the law suit against BushCo.

She knows what very few of us know about Flight 175.

BushCo did a good job of faking the lists. Including using some real people as decoys. (mostly military)

[DulceDecorum]

9. No report of the person's death

As marvelous a finding aid as it is, the SSDI does not include the names of everyone, even if they had a Social Security number (SNN). If relatives or the funeral home did not report the death to the Social Security Administration, or if the individual died before 1962 (when the records were computerized) then they probably will not appear in this database. The omission of an individual in this index does not indicate the person is still living. It simply means that there was no report of the person's death to Social Security Administration.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~rwguide/lesson10.htm

Is it not curious,
that so very many deaths
have NOT been reported to the Social Security Administration?

Especially when the Social Security Administration knows so much about people who have honest legitimate Social Security Numbers.
The SSA ROUTINELY sends US residents
letters that tell them how long they have worked in the US
and what benefits they are therefore entitled to.
They KNOW you are alive,
and they KNOW where you live,
and who you work for.

In the case of the passengers of Flight 11,
and Flight 175
and Flight 93
we can understand how it came to be that
no funeral home reported the deaths
to the Social Security Administration.
That is because,
in many instances,
the coffins were empty.
THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE BOX.
So there really was not much to report.

What we do NOT understand however,
is why the Social Security Administration is behaving as if the passengers
A) ARE STILL ALIVE, or
B) DO NOT EXIST.

Sheesh.
The SSA and the FAA
appear to BOTH be suffering from the same rare strain of amnesia.

In the case of Flight 77,
we have a conundrum.

DNA identifications for Flight 93 victims were sent to the Somerset County Coroner's Office for release. The Department of Defense released identification of Pentagon victims. All but four who worked in the Pentagon were identified. AFIP identified all but one of the passengers of Flight 77.
http://billstclair.com/911timeline/2002/mercury011102.h...

All but one.

What some experts have called "the most comprehensive forensic investigation in U.S. history" ended Nov. 16 with the identification of 184 of the 189 who died in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.
http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/stripe/6_48/national_new...

The remains of five people killed in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon were damaged beyond identification in the massive explosion and fire after a hijacked airliner crashed into the building's west side, officials said.
Investigators have identified remains of 184 people who were aboard American Airlines Flight 77 or inside the Pentagon, including those of the five hijackers, but they say it is impossible to match what is left with the five missing people.
<snip>
The fifth unidentified victim was a passenger on the hijacked plane. A spokesman for the FBI declined to disclose the name of the victim (note: Dana Falkenberg).
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/pentagon-unidentified....

Leslie A. Whittington and Charles S. Falkenberg, both 45, were due to leave with their two young daughters September 11 from Dulles International Airport for a flight to Los Angeles. The family had lived near Gekas on Tennyson Road in University Park for 12 years.
<snip>
The couple, who had been married since 1984, had moved out of their brick Colonial in University Park and had spent their last few days with daughters Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3, in a local hotel, awaiting the trip.
When they returned, Gekas said, they planned to move into a new house in Chevy Chase.
<snip>
The Gekas family inherited the Falkenberg's tabby cat, Stella, a temporary guest who became part of the Gekas family when she lost her own on Flight 77.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/dfalkenberg.htm

Reading this gives one the impression that
almost everyone aboard Flight 77
was found dead.
How then,
did the hijackers,
who the FBI insists to this very day
are the persons identified on their website,
how then did those self same hijackers
miss to be listed on a certain autopsy report
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm
and how is it that
two of those exact same hijackers are claiming to be ALIVE.

I attempted on three occasions to obtain a final passenger list from American Airlines. They refuse to give a list and in fact won’t even verify that they gave the first list to CNN. Since the list is in the public domain, I find it curious that they would not take ownership nor provide a current, “correct” list.
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/07/article_tro_flight7...

It looks like American Airlines
might have acquired the same memory loss.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[Bolo Boffin]

10. What is the point, Dulce??????

Are you thinking all of these people are still alive somewhere?

Or are you thinking all of these people never existed in the first place?

What is the point?

Under what hypothesis are you gathering all this information?

What are you driving at?

What are you trying to prove?

What are you trying to ascertain?

What are you seeking to discover?

What is it you are trying to say?

What is the point?

[DulceDecorum]

11. Merely that

As marvelous a finding aid as it is, the SSDI does not include the names of everyone, even if they had a Social Security number (SNN). If relatives or the funeral home did not report the death to the Social Security Administration, or if the individual died before 1962 (when the records were computerized) then they probably will not appear in this database. The omission of an individual in this index does not indicate the person is still living. It simply means that there was no report of the person's death to Social Security Administration.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~rwguide/lesson10.htm

THE OMISSION OF AN INDIVIDUAL IN THIS INDEX
DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PERSON IS STILL LIVING.

IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT THERE WAS NO REPORT OF THE PERSON'S DEATH
TO THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION.

Please accept our condolences for your loss.
http://www.ssa.gov/ww&os1.htm

When a person who has worked and paid Social Security taxes dies, certain members of the family may be eligible for survivors benefits. Up to ten years of work is needed to be eligible for benefits, depending on the person's age at the time of death
http://www.ssa.gov/ww&os2.htm

You should apply for survivors benefits promptly because, in some cases, benefits will be paid from the time you apply and not from the time the worker died.
You can apply by telephone or at any Social Security office. We will need certain information, but do not delay applying if you do not have everything. We will help you get what you need. We need either original documents or copies certified by the agency that issued them.
The information we need includes:
Proof of death—either from a funeral home or death certificate;
Your Social Security number, as well as the deceased worker’s;
Your birth certificate;
Your marriage certificate, if you are a widow or widower;
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10084.html

Well,
that might just explain why so very few SS claims have been made.
They need ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS or CERTIFIED COPIES.
That must have put a real crimp in some sails, eh?
Hello Ted,
wotcha got on Barby the Harpy?
Any birth or marriage certificates?
Any death certificate?
We can't find any.
Wondered if you could rustle up the old bitch's pedigree.
Well, CAN YOU?
Funny how that ex-ballerina
just doesn't show up on any known database so far.
She 'ad real long pointy twinkle toes, she did.
Longer and sharper than those Lee press-ons she wore on 'er fingers.
Walked all over and and never left a trace.
Just like a gecko on stilts.
Had to wear really short skirts too, you know.
Didn't want to trip on them again
and cause that Rich Sanatorium have to file another
Puppy Protection Bill
as an act of right contrition
for wot 'e done after 'e had a look at 'er hairy bum.
Ted,
we don't really care where that Harpy went,
but we would like to know where she came from in the first place.
Maybe these guys have some idea.
NOT!!!!

Using the File as a Stepping Stone to Further Research
Once you perform a successful search in the Death Master File, several research options are now open. Armed with the individual's death date, Social Security number, and probable death state, you may request an obituary or death certificate. The same is true for birth certificates. Although the birth date is also provided, birthplace is not, though it is still possible that the individual had been born in the same state in which he/she applied for their Social Security card.
The Freedom of Information Act has made available copies of the original applications of those Social Security card holders who have passed away. Researchers must send $27 (if SS number is known) or $29 (if number is unknown or incorrect) to the address below :

Social Security Administration
Office of Earnings Operations
FOIA Workgroup
300 N. Greene Street
PO Box 33022
Baltimore, MD 21290

For further information on using SSA records, refer to Kathleen Hinkley's article "Locating the Living: Twentieth-Century Research Methodology" in the National Genealogical Society Quarterly, vol. 77/3 (September 1989).
Effective research is easiest when the researcher has a correct knowledge of the tools and sources available. As concerns the Social Security Death Master File, understanding the time span of the index and the inherent limitations of the data will help the genealogist better evaluate any search results.
http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/artic...

[Bolo Boffin]

13. What is the point, Dulce?

Why are you so fascinated by missing records in the SSDI that you must bring them back here to show us all? You do have a point, right?

You find it surprising that many family members didn't claim Social Security benefits that they may have been entitled to. You must have forgotten that several charities took up massive collections for these families, making the paltry (by comparison) sum family members would have gotten from SS unnecessary.

Your glee in slandering Barbara Olson is duly noted, and nowhere close to the level of glee Barbara displayed in slandering the Clintons. All well and fine, but your insistence that Ted and Barbara weren't married continues to be a source of amusement.

It seems that you are wanting to collect the death certificates of those passengers who died in the crash. Why?

[DulceDecorum]

17. Cancel the death certificate

She was quick to volunteer when the New York Bar Association asked its members to assist with its World Trade Center Expedited Death Certificates Initiative to help families of the more than 5,000 persons missing and presumed dead following the September 11 disaster.
"In general, New York law requires that the family of a missing person wait three years to obtain a death certificate, but the awful circumstances of this tragedy called for an expedited response," DeSanto pointed out. "Among other things, a death certificate is necessary to obtain life insurance proceeds, to grant families access to bank accounts, to probate estates, and to claim benefits of other relief funds, such as Social Security.
Therefore, New York City and New York State instituted a special procedure to help families secure death certificates for persons missing after the World Trade Center attack. In most cases, families will be able to obtain the death certificates within a few weeks after the affidavits from family members and employers are submitted to the medical examiner." On October 2, less than a week after the initiative began, death certificates were issued for 41 victims whose families applied through the expedited procedure.
http://www.law.miami.edu/news/158.html

5,000. Dead?
Methinks some of them were issued a recall.
Or maybe only two thousand-and-something
managed to complete the required paperwork.

Washington, D.C., (September 21, 2001) - Life insurers, working with their regulators, have developed a simple, one-page affidavit that beneficiaries of those who lost their lives in the September 11 terrorist attacks can use in lieu of a death certificate to claim life insurance benefits.
http://www.disasterinformation.org/r7.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/dc_001.htm
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2001/dec/dec11a_01.htm...

The New York State World Trade Center Relief Fund began making its first payments the week of Thanksgiving. Marc Carey, the fund's spokesman, said the first 792 checks were sent to spouses or domestic partners of people who died in the collapse of the trade centers. He said that part of the delay in sending relief was the process of getting death certificates for those still missing. As soon as the paperwork was taken care of, he said, the checks were sent. Mr. Carey also said that the fund had sent about 2,500 applications for aid to families of people who lost a relative when the buildings were attack. "We want to make sure any victim's family knows about the fund," he said. "Ultimately every dime we collect will go out."
http://philanthropy.com/free/update/2001/12/2001120602....

To date, 1,379 victims, just about half, have been confirmed dead when their remains were positively identified, often relying on just a tiny piece of bone or other chance remnant. Another 1,350 were declared dead as a result of a court action, after families submitted enough evidence to prove that their relative was at the center when the attack occurred and they have not been seen since.
http://www.canada.com/national/features/september11/sto...

To prevent fraudulent issuance of birth certificates of decedents, on October 23, NYCDOHMH
(the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene)
began mailing copies of death certificates to states of birth and residence through the Interstate Transcript Exchange Program. NYCDOHMH also began sharing fact-of-death information with the regional Social Security Administration office to prevent fraudulent issuance of death benefits, and provided information to the NYC Police Department.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm51SPa6.htm

OUCH.
DAMN that the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene!
THEY WENT AND TOLD THE REGIONAL SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION!!
What were they trying to do?
Make sure every dead person gets placed on the Social Security Death Index?
Well they failed.
Hah.

The CDC (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) may have sent
information, names and dates, to the Social Security Administration
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retri...
but we all know that
the SSDI has SCORES of persons who remain unaccounted for.
Like David Angell.

Inclusion Criteria:
CONFIRMED DEAD. Includes those who have been confirmed dead by a coroner's office or the Defense Department. It also includes those for whom death certificates have been issued, even if no body has been recovered.
REPORTED DEAD. Includes those whose deaths have been reported by family, employers, mortuaries, places of worship or by the airlines that listed them as aboard one of the four flights. Includes people for whom memorial services have been held, even if their bodies have not been recovered or positively identified. (Those identified by federal authorities as the hijackers are not included in the database.)
REPORTED MISSING. People identified by family, official agencies or employers as missing.
http://www.september11victims.com/september11Victims/Vi...

"I could tell it was very difficult for these families to come in and sign an affidavit declaring that their loved ones died as a result of the World Trade Center attack. Up until this time, there was still hope of finding survivors."
Even though the interview took place two weeks after the terrorist attack, one woman asked if it would be possible to cancel the death certificate if her husband were later found alive.
http://www.law.miami.edu/news/158.html



Never mind.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

14. What is the point, Dulce?

Are you trying to prove that there were no passengers aboard the four planes? That the people we've heard about were created by the conspirators behind the 9/11 attacks?

That would be an fascinating solution to the problem of where they are now if their planes weren't the ones who crashed on 9/11. Is that what you're suggesting?

[AZCat]

18. Watching this thread reminds me of poor Doc Daneeka...

Doc Daneeka was the character in Joseph Heller's "Catch-22" who was declared dead because the records showed he was on a plane that crashed, and he never bailed out.

He spends the rest of the book fighting an increasingly absurd situation, where nobody wants to acknowledge that the records were wrong, so they strike him from the roster and ignore him to the point of telling his wife back home that he is dead.

[DulceDecorum]

21. It reminds me of Get Shorty

RAY BONES: You got a miss. Leo Devoe. Guy's six weeks over.
CHILI: He died.
RAY BONES: How'd you know he died, he tell you?
Ray Bones checks his man to get some appreciation, but the guy's too busy looking at the hair rinses and shit on the counter.
CHILI: Yeah, he told me.
RAY BONES: Personally?
CHILI: Yeah, Ray, he personally told me he got killed in that Get Away Airlines' jet went down last month.
RAY BONES: What Get Away jet?
CHILI: It was in the Herald.
RAY BONES: Yeah, well, maybe the guy took out flight insurance. Check with the wife.
<snip>
CHILI: So when the guy finds out it was his flight, he can't believe it. If he'd stayed on that plane, he'd be dead. Right then he knows his luck has changed. If everybody thinks he's dead he won't have to pay back the fifteen or what he owes on the vig, four and a half a week.
http://corky.net/scripts/getShorty.html

But I am so glad that you brought up Doc Daneeka,
because HE WAS ALIVE TOO.
Just like Leo Devoe.
And seven alleged hijackers.

Now, we all know that paperwork can be faked.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/461564.html

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has asked the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) to alert all FDIC-supervised banks to the theft of official documents from the Denver County (Colorado) Vital Statistics Office on April 9, 2002.
The items stolen include 2,000 blank State of Colorado birth certificates, 305 City and County of Denver death certificates, and an electric City and County of Denver seal. The birth certificates are business letter size and serially numbered from 1851001 through 1853000. The death certificates are also business letter size and serially numbered from 309695 through 310000.
http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/2002/fil0241.ht...

But how did they come up with the passengers on the lists?
WHO came up with the names?
We know that the chatty stewardesses got the seat numbers wrong.
And we also know that United Airlines wasn't even sure who its pilots were.

•In a condolence letter Melodie Homer received about two weeks after 9/11, United asks Homer to inform her mother-in-law that she's no longer allowed to travel for free on United.
"Travel benefits for parents cease with the death of the employee," the letter says. "Please convey this information to LeRoy's mother, Ilse Homer, if she survives him."
(See, what I mean?
UA doesn't seem to think their man is dead either.)
•A memorial plaque United delivered to Melodie Homer shortly after 9/11 misspelled LeRoy's name.
<snip>
•In a letter to the wives stating how United planned to remember the four pilots, the company didn't even get all four pilots' names correct. United wrote: "LeRoy, Homer, Victor and Michael." Instead of Homer, it should have been Jason, for Flight 93 pilot Jason Dahl of Denver.
http://www.courierpostonline.com/91102/m090802a.htm

One more curious thing:
BOTH Doc Daneeka and Leo Devoe, were LISTED AS DEAD.
The RECORDS SHOWED THEY WERE DEAD.
And that is NOT the case with our lot.

But
WHY in the name of Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney,
would the survivors NOT report these particular deaths?
Unless, there was a really pressing reason
that these people remain officially alive.

THe FAA records for BOTH United Airlines planes
indicate that the planes are maintaining VALID registrations.
The SSDI records for MANY of the passengers indicate that their deaths have NOT been reported to the SSA.

In other words,
our lot is OFFICIALLY ALIVE.
And they will continue to be officially alive,
unless yawl can come up with something to prove that they died.

Well, can you?

Or are you simply going to sneer at the databases.
The self same databases that Eliot Spitzer et al use daily.

TWENTY-TWO CHARGED IN WORLD TRADE CENTER FRAUD
http://www.ins.state.ny.us/p0203221.htm

[MercutioATC]

22. The proof that the hijackers are alive? I must have missed it...

You keep saying that they're alive. Where's proof of that? You must have some...

[DulceDecorum]

27. Explain the three FBI photos

that you so blithely ignore.

Then substantiate YOUR allegations.

I have provided links to reputable websites that back me up.
You have provided NOTHING of relevance.
As usual.

[MercutioATC]

36. Do you have a link to where the FBI released those photos?

Your post is the only place I've seen them. I'm not discounting them, I'd just like to see some context.

[DulceDecorum]

39. Let your fingers

do the walking.

WHEN do YOU ever provide us with links?
Get your own darn link.

[MercutioATC]

41. You HAVE a star by your name. You can search my posts any time

you'd like to see the links I've posted.

Not as many as you've posted, true, but I don't draw as many parallels.

The fact is that you've posted three pictures and asked me to comment on them. I'm just asking where you got them. I don't think that's asking a lot. You DID ask for my response...

[DulceDecorum]

44. Lets see you do some deductive reasoning

and some basic research.

Find the pics.
They are on the net somewhere.

Some entity originally posted them
and someone is alleged to the the person in all three of them.

Really, MercutioATC,
This is as easy as finding one's way out of a paper bag.
Surely a person who can track a jet all over the US landscape
can find a photo or two of the hijackers
he so vociferiously claims are dead.

Get on with it.
Find the missing link.

[MercutioATC]

51. You provide three specific photos and ask me a question about them.

Then, you refuse to tell me where they came from?

Yes, I could probably spend hours searching the internet for photos. I might even find the three you posted. Since you have them already, what's the issue with telling me where they're from?

Remember, You're the one asking for my opinion. I'll be happy to give it if you'll give me the origin of the photos.

[DulceDecorum]

53. Can't explain them?

That's OK.

That is why most people think that they are fakes.
And bad ones at that.

Incidentally, MercutioATC,
I am one of many who would be quite content
to live the rest of my life without your opinion.

The Washington Press corps felt the same way about Ari fLieschya.

[MercutioATC]

63. Hey, you're the one who asked (twice, if I'm not mistaken).

If you can't provide the source for the photos, that's O.K...

[DulceDecorum]

72. Can't find them eh?

Answer me this:
If I do not have the link,
then how was I able to post it?

There are three different men in the three photographs.
Each one of them has been identified as having that same name and identity as the other two men in the photographs next to him.
The FBI claims that it is the same individual in each of the three photographs.
The FBI also claims that one particular plane was hijacked and destroyed by the man in each of the three photographs.

MercutioATC cannot find the source for the photographs.
It is OK, MercutioATC.
You are off the hook now.
We have all lost interest in whatever it is you might have had to say.

[MercutioATC]

74. YOU posted the photos. You don't know where you got them?

All I'm asking for is a link to wherever you got the photos. I'd like to see the background information.

[RH]

78. Here

The image is apparently filched from cooperativeresearch.org:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timelin...

The author refers to them as "official pictures".

The photo the FBI released is here:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/aa77/77.htm

[RH]

79. and btw,

apart from the the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. special alert “typo” I am not yet aware of a shred of evidence to remotely substantiate the notion that Al-Midhar was alive at any time after 9/11

[DulceDecorum]

82. AWOL

Some of the men the FBI claims hijacked planes on Sept. 11 and crashed them into the World Trade Center in New York, the Pentagon, and Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania are still alive.
No they weren't pulled from the rubble, they were never on the planes.
The FBI press release of September 27th, 2001
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm
containing names, photographs, aliases and other information is seriously flawed. They have used these peoples names and made claims based on the fact they were pilots and other supposedly incriminating evidence and yet they were not involved. Places of birth, birthdays and other personal details were displayed on news throughout the world.
The FBI still lists these men as suspected hijackers who were killed during the terrorist assault, this is absurd. If this is the quality of the evidence they can present it is no wonder the public cannot see the rest.
http://propagandamatrix.com/seven_of_the_wtc_hijackers_...

So if the hijackers weren't on the planes.
what makes you INSIST that the passengers were?
Why can't they take after their pResident?

And what's this crud we hear about several parties having to travel on other flights because they were unable to get seats on the same plane?
Those planes were barely half-full.
There were PLENTY of seats available.
And at least one of those flights was chartered.
By whom and for what, we are not sure, but that is probably the reason why it does not show up on the BTS data for that day.

This whole hijacker story can be traced back to one source.
And you gotta stop listening to Boston FBI.

May 23, 2002
"The information coming from Phoenix, the information coming from Minneapolis was stifled here at FBI headquarters," Shelby said. "I believe the FBI's got a lot of explaining to do."
Shelby, Durbin and Graham are among several members of Congress to ask that the FBI make the memo public. Mueller, the FBI director, has declined.
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/05/23/Worldandnation/Senato...

APRIL 12 2001--Two months before the September 11 attacks, FBI agent Kenneth Williams sent the below memo to bureau brass in Washington and New York warning that a cadre of Osama bin Laden disciples might be training at U.S. flight schools in preparation for future "terror activity against civil aviation targets." Williams suggested a nationwide FBI review to determine whether such a "coordinated effort" could be seen in other localities. The Williams memo was roundly ignored, of course, until after the World Trade Center was leveled. (8 pages)
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0412042phoenix1.ht...

3-17-02
The passenger NUMBERS of all four airplanes that crashed were published almost straight away. The passenger LISTS or MANIFESTS, though, were sent to the FBI by the FAA within hours after the planes crashed.
Only parts of those lists were given by the FBI to the Associated Press. Those so-called victim lists were published by the big new agencies from the 12th september 2001 onwards.
Those lists were never complete. Even more astonishing - the hijackers were never mentioned on those lists.
That made me curious and I wanted to find out exactly who was on those planes.
http://www.rense.com/general21/pass.htm

But it can't be, can it?
7:39AM arrival on Saab.
7:45AM departure on Boeing 767.
That leaves SIX WHOLE MINUTES!!!
RUN ATTA RUN.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[RH]

83. You invited an explanation of Al Midhar

You then refused to provide one.

The identities published by the FBI were not invented by the FBI. The identities were previously used by the suspects as named.

Khalid Almihdhar entered the US in 1999 and lived in San Diego. His track record is considerable:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=es...

You have not yet identified a single "alive hijacker" who was anywhere near to the USA on or before 9/11 2001.

[DulceDecorum]

84. Boo hoo

[AZCat]

25. My point was rather that the gov't databases are inaccurate

And that it is difficult to draw any conclusions from them without corroboration from a second source.

Are they alive? Are they dead? The SSDI certainly isn't any help determining that. And your reliance on it as evidence of conspiracy is far-fetched, to say the least.

Show me some warm bodies, and I'll take that into consideration. But showing us that a government database has discrepancies has no relevance, and does not prove (or disprove) anything.

[DulceDecorum]

28. About those government databases

since they are so damn inaccurate,
why don't we dispense with them altogether?

Goodbye; Department of Motor Vehicles.
So long; Register of voters.
Adieu; Births, Marriages and Deaths.

AZCat says:
...showing us that a government database has discrepancies has no relevance, and does not prove (or disprove) anything.

US immigration law says
that if the INS cannot find your records in their database,
then you must be deported forthwith.
The INS seems to think that they have current and accurate records of everyone who entered the US legally.
Well,
we all know THAT is NOT true.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/11/inv.ins.hijackers /
Let's halt the deportations.

AZCat says:
Show me some warm bodies, and I'll take that into consideration.

Yes please, your honor.
Coming right up.

[AZCat]

29. Let's walk through this

It seems we agree on this point:
Most (if not all) government databases are inaccurate

Good, that is a starting point. You ask why, if these databases are so inaccurate, why don't we dispense with them altogether?

My answer is this - because they are better than not having any record at all. Unlike Doc Daneeka's experience, physical proof trumps an electronic record. My experience with the Arizona DMV has been similar - that when the DMV database is wrong, my physical evidence (receipts, registration forms) can be used to correct the mistakes.

My point about warm bodies conforms to my point above - that if there are discrepancies in the SSDI where people that are not dead are listed as such, then the discovery of the actual person will allow for a correction. Again, the physical evidence (the person) trumps the electronic record.

[seatnineb]

30. Al-CIA-da video "wills" to mark this years upcoming anniversary...

Your warm bodies are right here Azcat..........

Saeed Alghamdi(Flight 93)


Abdulaziz Alomari(Flight 11)


Funny............

The internet is abuzz for nearly 3 years that the 2 gentlemen above are still alive post 9/11.......

But rather than BushCo or their henchman at the F.B.I try and convince us that they are in fact dead(on 9/11).....

We have Al-CIA-da themselves broadcast the video "wills" containing the aforementioned gentlemen ...allegedly filmed in Afghanistan at somepoint before 9/11.....

Saeed Al-Ghamdi's was shown to mark the anniversary in 2003.


Abdul-Aziz Alomari's was shown to mark the anniversary in 2002


So as we approach the 3rd anniversary in a week and a half.....

Who will Al-CIA-da show this time......

Well.......

These are the hijackers who have been rumoured to be ALIVE after 9/11........

Ahmed Alnami


Marwan Al-Shehhi


Waleed Alshehri


Khalid Al- Midhar


Take your pick Azcat.........
It would not suprise me one bit if we see a video featuring one of these chaps in a week and a half!

[MercutioATC]

35. "The internet is abuzz"? "...RUMORED to be alive"?

So's Elvis.

[DulceDecorum]

42. Elvis has a death certificate

Many of the passengers do not.

Elvis left a corpse which was identified and buried.
These passengers left little if any physical trace.

Elvis is offically and totally without-a-doubt-dead.

I quote, "I asked the guy if he thought Elvis was really dead. He told me, "Absolutely. I shoved the cotton balls up his ass when he was embalmed. (NO LIE.)"
http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/p/Elvis%20Presley/el...

We have little if ANY proof that these passengers are actually dead.

Unless you, MercutioATC,
have been doing something with the cotton balls
that you haven't yet told us about...

[MercutioATC]

43. Well, it's good to see you believe SOMEBODY'S dead.

But, didn't the "government" issue that death certificate? Don't you find that a wee bit suspicious?

[DulceDecorum]

47. Why don't the passengers

all have lives BEFORE September 11, 2001?
http://www.njsba.com/mass_disaster/index.cfm?fuseaction...
And why were their deaths NOT reported to the SSA?

MercutioATC says:
But, didn't the "government" issue (Elvis') death certificate? Don't you find that a wee bit suspicious?

No. And we fully expect that Princess Diana was issued one as well.
Nor do we find strange
that a plane crashed
and only SOME of those aboard were promptly issued death certificates.
We assume that the authorities
had at least one very good reason
for NOT issuing the other passengers death certificates.

MercutioATC,
tell us,
what possible reason would that be?

[MercutioATC]

49. Who doesn't have a life before 9/11? Beamer? We've dealt with that.

Anybody else?

The rest of your message is a little confusing. First you say that you don't find Elvis' death certificate suspicious. Then you say that you don't find the fact that only some of the passengers' deaths have been reported to SSA suspicious either (sarcastically, I'll assume, since you're making it an issue here). What's the story? Do you trust the government when it says that Elvis is dead or not?

[DulceDecorum]

54. Elvis was not on the plane

Beamer allegedly was.

Tell us about his life BEFORE September 11.
And don't leave out the cotton balls.

[MercutioATC]

62. Where would you like me to start?

His college days? His employment at Oracle?

There are records of all of it. Why do you insist on saying that he didn't exist before 9/11?

I've posted all of this before, but I'll be happy to do so again if using the search function is too much trouble.

[DulceDecorum]

65. Yes, I could probably spend hours

searching the internet for Beamer.
I might even find the information you posted.
Since you have it already,
what's the issue with telling me about it?

Please make yourself happy,
and tell us the story from the time he acquired the Beamer identity that was discarded on September 11, 2001.

[MercutioATC]

71. I'd be happy to repost it. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

(It took me 20 seconds to locate it)

....and, I was only suggesting that you search DU (for a post you've already read), not the entire internet

[DulceDecorum]

31. Let's try it again.

AZCat says:
It seems we agree on this point:
Most (if not all) government databases are inaccurate.

NOPE.
Not so.
Check the stats.
The info contained with most government databases IS accurate.
HOWEVER,
the databases can be and are hacked.
Also espionage/covert action causes fake entries to be inserted and/or real entries deleted.
Legal actions such as the Witness Protection Program,
cause changes to be made.
BUT,
by and large, for the most part,
the information contained on most government databases is reliable.

That is why we are arguing.
And that is why we are all wondering
how it came to be
that so very many people do not appear
on certain government databases.

Let's take a look at the hijackers for a moment.
now according to CNN,
certain gentlemen left no trace on the INS databases.

INS information on the individual hijackers identified by the FBI
According to the Immigration and Naturalization Service:
5) Hani Hanjour was admitted as a nonimmigrant student in student in December, 2000. INS is unable to determine at this time whether this subject was in lawful status on 9/11.
6) Satam Al Suqami: INS is unable to find any record relating to this name.
8) Wail Alshehri: INS is unable to find any record relating to this name.
12) Fayez Ahmed: INS is unable to confirm any relating record based on current information available.
14) Hamza Alghamdi: INS is unable to confirm any relating record based on current information available.
15) Mohald Alshehri: INS is unable to confirm any relating record based on current information available.
16) Saeed Al ghamdi: INS is unable to confirm any relating record based on current information available.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/11/inv.ins.hijackers /

In Virginia, an FBI (news - web sites) affidavit filed in federal court alleged that as many as five hijackers - Hani Hanjour, Salem Al-Hamzi, Majed Moqed, Ahmed Saleh Alghamdi and Abdulaziz Alomari - went to the Department of Motor Vehicles in Arlington, Va., on Aug. 2(2001).
All five were at the office that day to ``conduct transactions relating to Virginia identification cards,'' the affidavit said.
http://www.flight93crash.com/noexplosives.txt

That is seven separate "hijackers."
HOW did they get into the US?
And what about the multiple aliases?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/14/archive/main3...

The entire matter appears to be one of identity theft
and outright fraud.

But the government databases ARE relevant.
Observe the trouble that those five men went to
in order to be listed on the Virgina DMV database.

Observe the lengths that certain covert operatives have been going to to obtain passports of Coalition members.
It is VERY IMPORTANT to be listed on certain government databases.
And it is therefore most surprising
to discover that so very many of the passengers aboard the four planes
do NOT have any record of their death
on the Social Security Administration database.

Gee whiz.
That sort of thing makes people wonder if
THEY ARE STILL ALIVE.

[Bolo Boffin]

32. You believe these people are still alive.

Thanks, Dulce. That says everything we need to know to dismiss your posts entirely.

[DulceDecorum]

38. Sez you

DulceDecorum says:
Gee whiz.
That sort of thing makes people wonder if
THEY ARE STILL ALIVE.

BOLOboffin says:
Thanks, Dulce. That says everything we need to know to dismiss your posts entirely.

BOLOboffin,
I have a question.
Since you have dismissed me and my posts,
can you please push that little snoozy button
at the top right of this post?
Please.
Pretty please.
Please with a Harpy on top?

[Bolo Boffin]

59. Why are you so desperate to have me ignore you, Dulce?

If I hit Ignore on you, Dulce, how will I ever keep track of the extremes your posts go to?

You are dealing with a dedicated fan of Days of Our Lives here, Dulce. Have you ever seen that show? The pace is rather quick now that Josh Wheedon is the writer, but in the past DOOL could take months to get to the point. They could spend two weeks on Sammi trying to keep Kate from walking through a door - two weeks! It began to border on Beckett absurdity, yet threatened at any moment to make sense. If I could hang on through Sammi keeping Kate out of a door, I can hang on until you finally arrive at your point.

So, DOOLce, let's see if I understand you.

You have no opinion at all on whether these people are alive or dead or if they even existed.

You simply note that some people have cause to wonder that
THEY ARE STILL ALIVE.

So if you have no opinion on whether they're alive or not,
WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING THAT THEY ARE?

If that's not your point, then why do you give it such emphasis? Hmmm?

I don't want to misrepresent you or your opinions. Please tell us if you have an opinion on whether or not these people are still alive.

Please.

Pretty please.

Please with a Harpy whistling Vince Foster murder CTs on top?

[DulceDecorum]

61. Oh Gawd

I'd rather listen to Zell Miller.

[MercutioATC]

76. I'd imagine that's true. He doesn't ask you questions.

That's beside the point...

[DulceDecorum]

77. And he is

much more charming,
and honest,
and loyal,
and intellectual;
he can probably even find an FBI link when he wants to.
and best of all,
he knows how to pick cotton.

[RH]

80. Isa that supposed to infer

that you know of a particular FBI link that is to be found?

And would it thus be reasonable to infer that there is some kind of cover up here afoot?

[MercutioATC]

81. Zell, best of all, knows how to pick cotton?

I can certainly see your point, then. That's one of MY major criteria in assessing character, too.

[seatnineb]

33. One hijacker did not do a video "will"!

Disinfo agent par exellance and 9/11 Mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed told Egyptian journalist Yosri Fouda (in 2002) that one of the 9/11 hijackers DID NOT video-tape his "will" because........

"He feared it might be hypocritical and Allah might not accept his sacrifice"

Masterminds Of Terror.
By Nick Fielding And Yosri Fouda.
Published By Mainstream Publishing.
Page 141

Khalid did not tell Fouda which hijacker this was.

But I was wondering.......

Seeing as bosom buddies Al-CIA-da and the F.B.I provided the biggest gaff so far......

With regards to the appearance of Hani Hanjour........

On the Dulles surveillance footage......


And on the the F.B.I web site itself.


That this maybe the 9/11 hijacker who never made a "video will"?
Only time will tell!

[AZCat]

45. Accurate?

This Audit Report by the Office of the Inspector General of the SSA is about accuracy in a sampling of records in the SSA. There are several areas where there are discrepancies, but one is titled "Improper Postings to the Death Master File".

The report is rather long and I skimmed it instead of carefully reading (I'll try to do that tomorrow) but it seems to point to inaccuracies within the very system we are discussing. Do you think this is relevant to our discussion?

[AZCat]

46. A second link for your reading pleasure...

An article on SSI Payment Accuracy may also be relevant. It says:

"Despite the inherent difficulties in achieving a high degree of payment accuracy in a means-tested program, SSA has not been satisfied with the current payment accuracy rate for the SSI program. Consequently, one of SSA?s objectives has been to raise the accuracy of SSI payments from the FY 1996 rate of 94.5 percent to at least 96 percent by FY 2002.

Other income maintenance programs experience similar difficulties with payment accuracy. For example, the latest available data (FY 1994) indicate that the former Aid to Families with Dependent Children program had payment accuracy rates slightly under 94 percent, and the Food Stamp program?s FY 1996 accuracy rate was slightly above 93 percent."

[DulceDecorum]

48. Accuracy over 93%

I remember how Ma used to get
when I brought home a report card with all 93%.

[AZCat]

50. Yes, that is a good report card

And I think 93%+ is good for a government database too.

But that still leaves a lot of room for erroneous data, and that is why I believe that government databases are too inaccurate to stand as evidence.

[DulceDecorum]

55. Do the math.

Determine the number passengers per plane.
Determine up how many passengers on that particular plane appear on the SSDI.
Translate the second number into a percentage of the first number.

Bet the rate is way less than 93%.

Why is that so?

[AZCat]

56. Probably

But I would argue that it is better to use the total number of reported deaths in the September 11th cases, as that is more indicative of the load on the SSA for that period. I honestly don't know how that percentage would show up, and I don't know how good the data is for total 'unreporteds' from September 11th. Do you have any of those numbers? I know I'm not going to check ~2700 names in the SSDI to see if they showed up, but it would be nice if someone else has.

Second point: I think it is important to also consider that there may be other reasons these people haven't shown up in the SSDI. Remember - correlation does not imply causality.

[DulceDecorum]

57. "There's another way to phrase that

and that is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something does exist does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist."

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Donald_H._...

[AZCat]

58. It's a bizarre Rummy quote, but it's true

He is an evil man, but this one quote is correct. However, correlation and causality are different from the absence of evidence thing.

Here's why:
Correlation means that we have evidence that A and B both happened.
Causality means that we have evidence that A causes (or caused) B.

The absence/evidence line refers to something similar, that just because something hasn't been found doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but differs in that the Correlation/causality is about the systemic link between the two, rather than just evidence itself.

You have found evidence that not all the supposed passengers of the four flights on September 11th are listed in the SSDI.

I am questioning your link (the causality) between that evidence and the conclusion that they are not listed because they are not dead. My reasons have been explained in previous posts, so I will not repeat them here.

Note: I am not making any claims about the state of the passengers on the four planes in question, I just dispute the ability of the SSDI data to clarify their state.

[DulceDecorum]

64. MIA

and MI SSDI.

[AZCat]

66. I don't understand

The meaning of your post is not clear to me.
Would you please clarify?

[DulceDecorum]

68. OK

for you,
it is one of the unknown unknowns.

[AZCat]

69. Surprisingly...

That made me grin.

Touche', Dulce!

[MrSammo1]

88. 93%

Isn't good enough for the Kool-Aid clan!

[AZCat]

89. I have a theory about this...

Based on my conversation with DulceDecorum, I have started checking the list of the WTC victims against the SSDI to see what percentage show up. I think this will give us a better idea of how the lists of the passengers compare, because I don't think we should expect the September 11th victims to show up in the SSDI at the same rate as deaths overall. It will take me a while (there are a lot of people on the list) but hopefully it will clarify the issue for me (at least).

[MrSammo1]

90. You will find

That most of those names aren't in the SSDI either. I already did it.

Which means....that they would have us believe more people died than actually did!

Not something unbelievable at all. Comsidering the scum in the White House!

[AZCat]

91. Did you take into account...

Non-US citizens? I was having trouble - the list I had of the WTC victims had their home cities, but I had no way of determining who was a US citizen other than that. The non citizens wouldn't be in the SSDI, of course.

My theory is that events like those of September 11th result in the deaths of those least likely to have their deaths reported to the SSA, either because they are not receiving Social Security benefits (and nobody thinks of reporting them) or the trauma of being involved with such an event prevents the relatives from registering the death with the SSA. Deaths that occur under different circumstances - in a hospital, for example - seem to me to be more likely to be reported.

What percentage (roughly) of the victims showed up in the SSDI when you did your search? I'm under 50% so far.

[MrSammo1]

93. no

I just started to imput the names of those who died.

50% was more than I got, but I did it about 6 months ago.

[DulceDecorum]

95. Non-US citizens

often have Social Security Numbers.
They are needed for banking (and taxes) within the US.

Who is listed in the SSDI?
This database is an index to basic information about persons with Social Security numbers whose deaths have been reported to the Social Security Administration. The death may have been reported by a survivor requesting benefits. It may have been reported in order to stop Social Security Benefits to the deceased. FUNERAL HOMES OFTEN REPORT DEATHS TO THE SSA AS A SERVICE TO FAMILY MEMBERS. Beginning in 1962, the SSA began to use a computer database for processing requests for benefits. About 98% percent of the people in the SSDI died after 1962, but a few death dates go back as far as 1937. BECAUSE LEGAL ALIENS IN THE U.S. CAN OBTAIN A SOCIAL SECURITY CARD, THEIR NAMES MAY APPEAR IN THE SSDI IF THEIR DEATHS WERE REPORTED. Some 400,000 railroad retirees are also included in the SSDI.
The Social Security Death Index is not an index to all deceased individuals who have held Social Security Numbers. It is not a database of all deceased individuals who have received Social Security Benefits, or whose families have received survivor benefits. (Porter 1999)
http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/faq.h...

Foidermore,
it appears that even terrorists who have consistently failed to obtain visas,
and have therefore NEVER EVER entered the US,
can have valid Social Security numbers assigned to them.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[MrSammo1]

96. I can say

That it has been accurate for everyone that I know that has died. (in my family) I thought an uncle of mine wasn't in it, but I had gotten his first name wrong.

[AZCat]

100. But shouldn't we throw them out of the calculation anyway?

If a non citizen doesn't show up in the SSDI, it might either be because they don't have a SSN or because they weren't reported. I can't think of a way to determine which is the cause for a specific individual, so I think they should be thrown out of the calculation. There are still plenty of citizens left to give us a good idea of how many were reported, I think.

[DulceDecorum]

103. Do what you like

with the non-citizens.
The results will be the same.

Gore won the 2000 presidential election.
Ever since then,
the White House,
like Iraq,
has suffered an illegal occupation,
because
Gore WON.
http://www.americanpolitics.com/2001gore.html

Now you can wiggle and you can wobble.
You can add or subtract any group of people that you like.
But the fact still remains
that with the SOLE exception of the actual flight crew,
ALL those passengers
boarded a DOMESTIC flight in the United States.
ALL those passengers
had to have a valid Social Security number to conduct any type of monetary transfer within the United States.
ALL those passengers
paid for their flights using US currency or credit cards.
ALL of those passengers
presented their tickets at the gate BEFORE
ALL those passengers boarded the plane.
And that is just the way it is.

But PLEASE,
remove them from the calculation, anyway.
http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/wt...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/08/attack/main50...
http://english.people.com.cn/english/200109/12/eng20010...
We have enough evidence without dragging them in.

Wednesday, 29 October, 2003, 19:28 GMT
The official number of people killed in the 11 September 2001 attacks that destroyed the World Trade Center in New York has fallen by 40 to 2,752.
They were struck from the list because the New York authorities were unable to confirm their deaths - or, in some cases, the fact that they ever existed at all.
Officials said the changes followed an extensive investigation by several city agencies, including the police department and the medical examiner's office, into the list of those reported missing, but whose remains were never found.
Those named include illegal immigrants whose employers had no record of their work, as well as some non-existent people who may have been the subject of false claims for compensation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3225313.stm

Wednesday, 12 September, 2001, 11:04 GMT 12:04 UK
DEATH TOLL (sidebar)
41 people are known to have died so far in the WTC. 10,000 to 20,000 were estimated to be inside when the first plane crashed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1539070.stm

Updated: Wednesday, October 3 - 10:33a
Also Tuesday, a court declared 41 of the missing victims legally dead, acting at the request of their families. All had worked for the Cantor Fitzgerald bond trading firm, which lost some 700 employees.
Once the health commissioner receives the court's report, he will issue the death certificates. The process of obtaining a death certificate for a missing person has been speeded up from a few years to a few days to help victims' families.
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/1003_APurns.html

(Original publication: Oct. 03, 2001)
A court yesterday declared 41 of the missing legally dead, acting at the request of their families. All worked for the Cantor Fitzgerald bond trading firm, which lost about 700 employees. The city has sped up the process of obtaining death certificates for missing people to allow victims' families to begin collecting insurance and other benefits.
Giuliani said 1,202 families have applied for death certificates.
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/100301/03wtcnyc....

Beginning on Wednesday, September 26, 2001, families can go to Pier 94 at 54th Street and 12th Avenue to receive help in securing a death certificate. Volunteer lawyers at that site will help families to file affidavits on behalf of those who are missing. The certificates will be expedited through a court process, be delivered to the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, and then be delivered to the Health Department for registration. By order of Mayor Giuliani, ten certified copies of the death certificate will be sent overnight mail, free-of-charge, to the designated family member. The goal is to expedite this process within a week's time. Families who live outside of New York City can access the affidavit forms from the City's Web site (nyc.gov). All families can call [phone] if they need additional information.
For each missing person, two affidavits will need to be completed. One affidavit will have to attest to personal information about the missing loved one; the second will have to be filled out by the missing individual's employer or, for airline passengers, certification by the airline will be required. In these cases, it is expected that the Court's action will be quickly decided without a court appearance and without the need for a hearing or other legal proceedings.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/public/press01/pr86-92...

September 25, 1996
To be proven dead under the New York State Public Health Law, the victims had to be first proven alive at the moment they took seats aboard the ill-fated flight from Kennedy Airport, said Suffolk Assistant County Attorney Derrick Robinson. Wetli then had to investigate the deaths. He did that based upon a passenger list from TWA, a report from the NTSB that there were no survivors and opinion letters from the state health commissioner and the state attorney general's office. Among the strongest evidence are copies of ticket stubs taken from passengers at the gate immediately before they boarded.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nytwa96-cert925.story
GET SHORTY.

[AZCat]

104. I see your point regarding the passengers...

But the other victims from the WTC incident don't necessarily have SSNs, because they might be tourists - right?

And what are you referring to by "you can wiggle and you can wobble"?



Is this true (quote from your post):

ALL those passengers
had to have a valid Social Security number to conduct any type of monetary transfer within the United States.

This seems a little far-fetched. Why does someone need a SSN to perform a monetary transfer within the US? I have never heard of this.

[DulceDecorum]

105. Ask the banks

and the taxman.

Ford v. Bank of America; First Federal Bank; Valley Bank of Commerce; First Security Bank, et al., No. 99-2368 D.C. No. CIV-99-855-BB-RLP (10th Cir. 2000)
NO NUMBER, NO ACCOUNT
The Facts
The Plaintiff, Ford, attempted to open checking accounts at various branches of the Defendant banks. The Plaintiff refused to provide the banks with his social security number to open an account. Each bank refused to open an account for the Plaintiff without his social security number.
<snip>
Holding
The Court held under the provisions of the Privacy Act of 1974 a national bank is not a Federal, state or local government agency and is therefore not subject to the terms and conditions of the Act. The Court also held, the refusal of a bank to open an account for a customer upon the refusal of the customer to provide his social security number was not a violation of the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
http://www.complianceheadquarters.com/Privacy/Privacy_A...

[AZCat]

106. Wow.

I didn't know that. Sometimes I think it is impossible to keep up with the encroachment of power over our identities. I think of myself as reasonably informed, but here is a perfect example of something that I SHOULD have known, but didn't.

You are right.

[DulceDecorum]

108. Remember Ramzi Bin al-Shibh?

He is the chap who never got a visa and so never entered the US.
However he DID manage to acquire an Social Security number which later turned out to belong to a nineteen year-old by the name of Ryan Allen.
http://www.theomahachannel.com/news/3026399/detail.html

Ramzi needed a Social Security number
BECAUSE he could not perform any type of monetary transfer
within the US
WITHOUT a valid Social Security Number.

But this set of facts brings up an interesting conundrum.

If Ryan Allen was 19 in April 2004
(when the article above was published)
then he must have been 16 years old in April 2001.
This means, that Ryan was a minor.
It also means that Ryan was required to be in school,
or else the truant officer would be paying his family a visit.
If Ryan was in school, then he was NOT supporting himself and was financially dependent on his parents.
Since his parents were supporting him, they were reporting him as a dependant on their tax forms.

Now, if Ramzi was wiring money, and using Ryan's SSN,
you better believe that the tax-men would have shown up on the Allen doorstep like they did with Al Capone.
The tax-men would have nailed the Allen's for crooked dealing and fraudulent tax returns.
Furthermore,
the banks and financial institutions that processed this money would have finked Ryan Allen out long time ago.

After September 11th the FBI got a search warrant that its field agents had wanted for three weeks, and they immediately found the evidence that led to key conspirators in the attacks. According to Moussaoui’s indictment, the FBI found his notebook, listing a German phone number. That number traced back to Ramzi bin al Shibh. Bin al Shibh was the roommate of Mohammad Atta, the leader of the attacks. Bin al Shibh and Atta created a German Al Qaeda cell together. Bin al Shibh wired TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to Moussaoui and another hijacker, Marwan al-Shehhi, who flew into the World Trade Center’s South tower.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/08/60II/main5083...

Every single time a bank moves 10 thousand dollars,
they have to tell the feds where it came from and where it went.

Now, you have a SS number that belongs to a teenage kid that is being used to transfer TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.
And no-one picked up on this?
But they sure managed to bounce Ryan Allen out the door when he asked for credit.

Hmmmmmmm
Can you say INSIDE JOB?

[seatnineb]

109. Great work.

Yo Dulce!

Great work again..........

Although...........

Our Ramzi aint gonna be too impressed with your latest debunking blockbuster!

In a fax he sent to Egyptian journalist Yosri Fouda in early 2002, Ramzi expessed concern about conspiracy theorists who.......



"Are stripping the brothers(9/11 Hijackers) of their credit"

I think Ramzi has got ya in his sights Dulce!

Watch out!

[AZCat]

110. Don't forget the example of Rush...

He showed you don't have to be a genius to figure out a way around the money 'red flag' thing.

All you have to do is make a lot of transactions of an amount less than the 'red flag' limit ($5000 IIRC). Rush did exactly that, and as far as I know his transactions never caused a whimper from the authorities (although that may have had to do with other variables also).

[DulceDecorum]

111. The case of Ryan Allen

is most interesting.

The teenager Ryan Allen
is using an SSN which appears to have been established for terrorist moneyman Ramzi bin al-Shibh.

Joe Ryan Allen was one of those guys who still had his friends from first grade. His brother-in-law described him as "the family ambassador" because of his knack for connecting with people.
Mr. Allen, 39, had done well in his career as a bond broker at Cantor Fitzgerald. But the centerpiece of his life was his many friends and his family -- a younger sister, three older brothers, six nieces and nephews.
His sister, Jennifer D'Auria, said Mr. Allen was single and thinking about settling down after seven years in Los Angeles trying to be an actor, and many more years of being an inveterate world traveler.
http://www.inmemoriamonline.net/Profiles/Folders/A_Fold...

Single and thinking about settling down,
after seven years in Los Angeles trying to be an actor,
and many more years of being an inveterate world traveler,
Mr. Allen, 39,
had done well in his career as a bond broker at Cantor Fitzgerald.

Whose SSN was HE using?
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/people/1892.h...

But I digress.
Let us go back to talking about the 19 year-old version of Ryan Allen.

The car dealership said it could not sell Allen a car because his Social Security number was on the list.
Allen has contacted the U.S. Treasury, the Social Security office, his credit union and lawyers. The only thing he knows for sure is that no one has used his Social Security number to open accounts in his name.
He says he has received no clear explanation of how his number could be connected to al-Shibh. And he said Treasury officials could not assure him that the number wasn’t used in other ways or that the problem would not recur.
<snip>
"I was told since my number hasn’t been used for so long that it shouldn’t be a harm to me," Allen said. "But being connected to a terrorist is pretty big to me."
http://www.showmenews.com/2004/Apr/20040422News025.asp

The only thing he knows for sure is that no one has used his Social Security number to open accounts in his name.
I guess Ramzi really DIDN'T get that visa.

Somehow — no one's really sure how — Allen's personal information had identified him as Ramzi Mohammed Abdullah Bin Alshibh, an al-Qaida terrorist and former roommate of 9/11 mastermind Mohammed Atta. Allen later got on the Internet and found Alshibh's name on the “block list” of the Office of Federal Assets Control, or OFAC, which lists about 150 pages of drug smugglers, al-Qaida members and other terrorists.
“Ramzi's name is on Page 46,” he said. “Right next to Osama's.”
Since then he has been on the phone with the FBI, the Treasury Department and, finally this week, the Social Security Administration, trying to sort it all out.
Earlier this month Allen's information was sent to a credit checking firm. Routine. It used a credit bureau database to compare Allen against the OFAC list of bad guys, said Todd Hill, the car dealership's general manager.
Here's how it works: If a match is found, an “OFAC alert” is issued, including a probability rating between 1 and 100 that the person is the same as the criminal on the list. Allen scored an 80, high enough that the dealership was required by law to call federal authorities. When the sales manager did, the FBI told him it already had Alshibh in custody.
So, fine. Allen wasn't shackled by the feds. But suddenly everything was a problem. Could he fly? Would he be arrested?
He didn't end up buying the Cavalier. But what if he wanted to buy something else? Would it happen again? Had it almost happened before?
Perhaps it had.
Six months ago he financed a set of cookware. The woman processing his order told him that when she ran his credit two people came up under his Social Security number. He talked to his credit union, then dismissed it as a harmless mistake.
He was not so cavalier about the Cavalier.
He made calls. He wanted answers. He hasn't gotten many. “Nobody knows what to do,” he said. “I'm talking to people in the government and they say, ‘Uhh, I'm kind of busy. Can you call me back?' They don't know how this happened. And they don't know what I should do.”
Finally, after numerous dead ends, a U.S. Treasury employee left a five-minute message on his answering machine.
“Maybe,” Allen recalls him saying, “the guy didn't steal your identity. Maybe you just had ‘common consonant clusters.' ”
Common consonant clusters?
Allen just laughed.
“That was just the worst,” he said. “I like to think I'm one in a million, but I have to think there are probably a few more Ryan Allens out there.”
But there is hope. John Garlinger, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration in Kansas City, said the agency sent Allen a letter verifying that his Social Security number was his and his alone. Additionally, Garlinger pledged, the administration will help Allen work with the Office of Federal Assets Control to make sure his name or any personal information is no longer connected to a terrorist. Allen also has a group of lawyers who say they will help him clear his name.
http://dehai.org/archives/dehai_archive/apr04/0204.html

Please note that these people
are not about to give young Ryan Allen,
another new clean SSN.
Maybe they know something
that we don't.

[Pallas180]

112. "it doesn't bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders".

"There are no innocent civilians..., so it doesn't bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders".

Chief of Staff of Air Force involved in 1963 Operation Northwoods and Operation Mongoose: Plan to attack US citizens on US soil to force the American public to support war against Cuba

—General Curtis E. LeMay, US Air Force Chief of Staff (1961 - 1965), Vice Presidential running mate of George Wallace, National Journal, 11/26/94

[Pallas180]

113. "Without censorship things can get terribly 'confused' in the public mind"

"Without censorship, things can get terribly 'confused' in the public mind."

–General William Westmoreland, Commander U.S. and United Nations (UN) forces in Vietnam (and illegally invading Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and narcotrafficing), TIME Magazine's Man of the Year (1966)