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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 08:31 PM
Original message
Dov Zakheim and the 9/11 Conspiracy
Edited on Sun Jul-25-04 08:33 PM by demodewd
excerpts below from www.conspiracynews.net./com/shadow.html

In a document called "Project for a New American Century"(1), SPC International executive, Dov Zakheim, called for a 'Pearl Harbor' type of incident being necessary to foster the frame of mind needed for the American public to support a war in the Middle East that would politically and culturally reshape the region. A respected and established voice in the intelligence community, his views were eagerly accepted, and Dov went from his position at Systems Planning Corporation to become the Comptroller of the Pentagon in May 2001. (2) Tridata, a subsidiary of Systems Planning Corporation, was in charge of the investigation after the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in 1993.



Systems Planning Corporation, according to their official website, specializes in many areas of defense technology production and manufacture, including a system developed by their Radar Physics Group called the Flight Termination System, or FTS.(3) This is a system used to destroy target drones (craft that would be fired on by test aircraft or weaponry) in the event of malfunction or "misses". This highly sophisticated war-game technology allows the control of several 'drones' from a remote location, on varying frequencies, and has a range of several hundred miles. This technology can be used on many different types of aircraft, including large passenger jets.



According to the SPC website (4), a recent customer at that time was Eglin AFB, located in Florida. Eglin is very near another Air Force base in Florida-MacDill AFB, where Dov Zakheim contracted to send at least 32 Boeing 767 aircraft, as part of the Boeing /Pentagon tanker lease agreement.(5)



As the events of September 11, 2001 occurred, little was mentioned about these strange connections, and the possible motives and proximity of Dov Zakheim and his group. Since there was little physical evidence remaining after the events, investigators were left only with photographic and anecdotal evidence.

The Boeing lease deal involved the replacement of the aging KC-135 tanker fleet with these smaller, more efficient Boeing 767s that were to be leased by Dov Zakheim's group. The planes were to be refitted with refueling equipment, including lines and nozzle assemblies.

When seen in comparison, it is obvious that the plane approaching the Trade Center has both of these structures-the FTS module and the midair refueling equipment, as configured on the modified Boeing 767 tankers. Of particular interest is the long tube-like anomalous structure under the rear fuselage area of flight 175-this structure runs along the right rear bottom of the plane, as it also does on the Boeing 767 refueling tanker pictured.


After considering this information, I am convinced that flight 175, as pictured on the news media and official reports, was in fact a refitted Boeing 767 tanker, with a Flight Termination System attached. Use of this system would also explain the expert handling of aircraft observed in both New York and Washington investigations, which has been officially credited to inexperienced flight school students.

Since the evidence from the World Trade Center site was quickly removed, there is little concrete evidence of the involvement of Dov Zakheim, who has since left his position at the Pentagon. However, the proximity of Eglin AFB to MacDill AFB in Florida and Dov Zakheim's work via SPC contracts and the Pentagon leasing agreement on both of these installations, combined with SPC's access to World Trade Center structural and security information from their Tridata investigation in 1993, is highly suspicious. Considering his access to Boeing 767 tankers, remote control flight systems, and his published views in the PNAC document, it seems very likely he is in fact a key figure in the alleged terrorist attacks in New York City on September 11, 2001.

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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. correction
www.conspiracynews.net./com/shadow.html
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. Berry berry intewesting
Office of the Under Secretary
of Defense (Comptroller)

Dov S. Zakheim was sworn in as the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and Chief Financial Officer for the Department of Defense on May 4, 2001. Dr. Zakheim has previously served in a number of key positions in government and private business. Most recently, he was corporate vice president of System Planning Corp., a technology, research and analysis firm based in Arlington, Va. He also served as chief executive officer of SPC International Corp., a subsidiary specializing in political, military and economic consulting. During the 2000 presidential campaign, he served as a senior foreign policy advisor to then-Governor Bush.

http://www.dod.mil/comptroller/biozakheim.html
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Dov S. Zakheim to Resign March 24, 2004
Dov S. Zakheim to Resign from the Department of Defense
March 24, 2004

http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-news+article+story...

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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
176. I thought I would put this near the top.
I knew I read that name here today somewhere. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Grand old profiteering
Yet even Allbaugh is small-time compared to the latest defector to the private sector, Pentagon comptroller Dov Zakheim, who announced two weeks ago that he will be leaving for a partnership at Booz Allen Hamilton, the technology and management strategy giant that is one of the nation's biggest defense contractors. Although Zakheim is not nearly as familiar as Condoleezza Rice, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, or Defense Policy Board member Richard Perle, he too has been identified as one of the ultrahawkish "Vulcans" who shaped Bush foreign and military policy from its earliest days. Zakheim has bustled through the revolving doors before, serving as a deputy undersecretary of defense during the Reagan administration, where he worked for Perle before leaving government to join a missile-defense contractor.

At the mammoth Booz Allen firm, Zakheim will join R. James Woolsey, the former director of central intelligence and Perle associate on the Bush Defense Policy Board. These were the defense intellectuals who favored invading Iraq long before Sept. 11 -- and long before any U.N. resolutions on the topic were introduced.
So far Booz Allen has yet to win any major Iraq contracts of its own, although it has shared Pentagon boodle for several years with Kellogg Brown & Root, the Halliburton subsidiary that is by far the biggest contractor out there. (At a recent hearing on Halliburton's scandal-scarred performance in Iraq, Zakheim did his best to defend the vice president's old company. "They're not doing a great job," he shrugged, "but they're not doing a terrible job.")

Booz Allen swiftly jumped on the Baghdad bandwagon last May, when it co-sponsored (with the Republican-connected insurance giant American International Group) a postwar conference on "The Challenges for Business in Rebuilding Iraq" that featured speeches by Woolsey and Undersecretary of Defense Zakheim. (The price of admission for industry executives ranged from $528 to $1,100 a head.) Included was the chance for executives to participate in a "not-for-attribution session that will permit a dynamic, frank exchange of views on the opportunities and challenges businesses will face in post-conflict Iraq."

More recently, Booz Allen was listed as a partner in a controversial $327 million contract to outfit the new Iraqi army. The prime contractor in this murky deal was Nour America Inc., which on closer inspection turned out to be controlled by a close associate of Ahmad Chalabi, the dubious former exile promoted by Perle, Woolsey and their ideological associates as the best possible leader for Iraq after Saddam. Chalabi is a leading member of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council and enjoys enormous influence inside the Defense Department, which issued the Nour contract. Unfortunately Nour had scant qualifications, if any, for the lucrative contract. After protests from more qualified contractors who had lost out, the contract was withdrawn for rebidding. Meanwhile, Booz Allen denied any role in the Nour affair, aside from a post-bid $50,000 consulting contract.




http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:iUASMhjvMuIJ:www.s...
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #176
177. What, to your mind, are the implications of this, & what should WE think?
I'd be interested in knowing what you think this information means, what lessons we should learn from it, and whether this gives any clue about how much the current Administration can be trusted to tell us the truth about not only Iraq, but also Afghanistan and what really happened on September 11, 2001. Think there are any connections?
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Where is the Trillion Zakheim?
"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted.

$2.3 trillion that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America. To understand how the Pentagon can lose track of trillions, consider the case of one military accountant who tried to find out what happened to a mere $300 million.

"We know it's gone. But we don't know what they spent it on," said Jim Minnery, Defense Finance and Accounting Service.

Minnery, a former Marine turned whistle-blower, is risking his job by speaking out for the first time about the millions he noticed were missing from one defense agency's balance sheets. Minnery tried to follow the money trail, even crisscrossing the country looking for records.

"The director looked at me and said 'Why do you care about this stuff?' It took me aback, you know? My supervisor asking me why I care about doing a good job," said Minnery.

He was reassigned and says officials then covered up the problem by just writing it off.

"They have to cover it up," he said. "That's where the corruption comes in. They have to cover up the fact that they can't do the job."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/m...

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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent. Was the U.S. government REALLY complicit in 9/11?
Thanks very much for this. It provides very persuasive information about the mysterious "attachments" seen on every photo except the one provided by the equally mysterious "bolo".

Is the Official Conspiracy Theory a lie? Yes, and the evidence continues to pile up.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Several question marks and a comment.
Dov Zakheim's name should become a household name. Is he native born?

Wouldn't this conspiracy (call if that for now) imply that these people took over the airlines aircraft and substituted 'their' a/c for AA and UA a/c? repainting and refitting seats and galleys as needed? OR....Wouldn't this imply that the airlines were in on this?

Where is the a/c that was supposed to have been flown into the Pentagon and its bodies?

Drone control? Wellstone?

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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. There may not be many people on DU this evening - bring this up in the
AM if DU continues to be slow. Yes, very interesting.
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
7.  System Planning Corporation
If anyone could pull something off

these folks could ...of course nothing specific regarding remote control aircraft capabilities that i see

http://www.sysplan.com /

Signatures and Electronic Warfare Technology
The Signatures and EW Technology Group provides support to both government and industry in the development of more survivable military vehicles and associated enabling technologies. The Group's expertise spans the areas of surface ship and aircraft/missile survivability, electronic warfare (EW) systems, mission analysis and planning, signature management tactics, and advanced systems applications. The Group is organized around three "Centers of Excellence": the Center for Signature Technology (Mr. Larry Myers, Director), the Center for Tactical Air Warfare (Mr. Laddie Coburn, Director), and the Center for Advanced Systems Applications (Ms. Gail Heim, Director). Each Center's focus is summarized as follows.


Center for Signature Technology



The focus of this Center is on high-tech signature technology activities including stealth, counter stealth, communications, and EW as they apply to weapon systems and platforms. Technical services are provided to support government, commercial, and international customers in all technical and analytical related activities from initial R&D through modeling and simulation, field test and evaluation, and then life-cycle support. When appropriate, this Center will also do prototyping and maintains the capability to subcontract for specialized manufacturing activities.



Center for Tactical Air Warfare



This Center's staff are primarily resident in Lexington Park, MD, with a small field activity located at China Lake, CA. The focus of the Center's activities is to provide technical RDT&E, systems engineering, and program support to the NAVAIR/NAWCAD organizations located at NAS Patuxent River, Md and NAS China Lake, CA. The operationally experienced team of SPC engineers specializes in jet aircraft RDT&E, aircraft survivability, aircraft avionics, weapons systems integration, combat identification systems, and smart/precision-guided weapons. The Center has supported activities on AX, JAST, and JSF new concept aircraft as well as JSOW/JDAM, and JASSM new precision-strike weapons.



Center for Advanced Systems Applications



Engineers in this Center provide technical and program expertise in the areas of sensors, lasers, solid-state devices, electro-optical/infrared, microwave devices, communications systems, etc., as they are applied to both advanced development and prototype/fielded systems. This Center's customers include leading-edge technology organizations (such as the U.S. government's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) and associated research laboratories and commercial contractors.



Areas of Core Expertise:



# LO/CLO technology design and development
# Electronic warfare systems
# RF/IR/EO/acoustic and materials signature technologies
# Physics-based engagement modeling and simulation
# Advanced aperture design and integration
# Design, development, and application of sensor systems
# Vehicle test and evaluation
# Life-cycle support
# Aircraft, missile, and ship survivability
# Weapon system integration
# Combat identification systems
# Technical and financial program management support

Products:
# EW Radar Threat Simulator (RTS)
# Position-Time Sensor Simulation (PTS)
Mr. Roy M. Smith, Group Vice President



http://www.sysplan.com/
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Remote control
There were several (10 or more) planes which were thought to have been hijacked. (From NORAD official statements)

NORAD even admits AA 77 was a UFO until it allegedly hit the pentagon. So, we know they didn't/couldn't track all the planes. That is a fact.

Any remote control planners would have had the NORAD failures figured into their planning. IOW, they knew NORAD would never be able to track the remote controlled planes, and furthermore, they would be able to move, by remote control, the allegedly hijacked planes offshore and into the sea, or wherever, without detection because NORAD was/would be so messed up.

Really, more than just another pretty theory, eh?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. refitted 767 tanker
Edited on Mon Jul-26-04 12:44 AM by demodewd

"Since the refitted 767s were able to carry both passengers and a fuel load, as shown in this photo, it is likely that the plane designated Flight 175 was in fact a refitted 767 tanker, disguised as a conventional civilian passenger plane."
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. So where then is your "pod"?

And where in the WTC shots are the pods at the end of the wings?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. Remember N844AA?
The Boeing 727 that was stolen from an airport in Angola?
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=64000&showcom...

The Boeing 727 took off from the Angolan capital on May 25 after being at the airport for 14 months. When it started taxiing down the runway, transponder off, the radio control tower tried to make contact with the pilot, but there was no response and nothing has been seen of the plane since.
Miami-based Aerospace Sales and Leasing Co.
http://www.aviatorsale.com/aix708 /
is reported to be the plane's current owner, and said it was in the process of repossessing the aircraft when it left Luanda. A representative of the company told the Washington Post it had removed all the seats and replaced them with fuel tanks. It flew the 727 to Luanda with a plan to deliver fuel to remote African airfields, he said.
http://www.commercialaviationtoday.com/archives/2003/1-...

Here is the FAA registration for the plane.
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=...
As you can see, the status is given as VALID.
This statement has NOT been contradicted by other US authorities.
Nor by the Angolans.

Helder Preza, Angola's aviation director, told the Portuguese radio network RDP that the plane arrived in Luanda in March 2002, but that authorities prevented it from flying on because "the documentation we held did not pertain to the aircraft in question."
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Security_Issues/727disap...

According to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, the plane was built in 1975. Although it was originally operated by American Airlines, according to FAA records, its latest registered owner was an aircraft leasing firm based in Miami, Florida.
Efforts to contact the firm were unsuccessful. The telephone number for the company has been disconnected.
An FAA spokesman had no new information on the plane or the firm. He told VOA firms are legally obliged to inform the agency of address changes and any transfers in aircraft ownership. But the spokesman conceded that does not always happen and he could not rule out the possibility the plane may have been sold to foreign owners.
Curiously, despite the FAA records, other U.S. government officials said the plane belongs to an American who lives in South Africa who leased the aircraft to others. These officials provided no additional details.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/200...

Lots more loverly details at:
http://www.wolstrupwebdesign.com/forumbeta/forum_posts....
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid...
Airports in Angola
http://www.aircraft-charter-world.com/airports/africa/a...

The FAA database comes through AGAIN.
Just as it did in the case of the Airscan-owned Cessna which went missing on July 16 2001,
and then had it registration cancelled on October 15, 2001.
The US-based mercenaries at Airscan
claim that this plane was destroyed.
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acmain.htm

With the State Department's permission, MPRI is negotiating with the Angolan government to train its army. The firm also teaches Army ROTC at 28 universities and provides assistant military attaches at three U.S. embassies in a pilot program.
<snip>
Great Britain is considering legislation to regulate such operations. In the United States, private military companies must obtain licenses from the State Department to work in another country, but it is not against U.S. law for individual Americans to become mercenaries.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20000215security1...

The US connection extends to Dick Cheney, the former defence minister and also, until last July, chairman of the board and chief executive officer of Halliburton's, the oil service company with interests in Cabinda.
Cheney dropped the Halliburton position when he accepted George W. Bush 's invitation to be his running mate.
Not surprisingly, people became suspicious when Airscan gained the contract to provide air surveillance to Cabinda's borders: some said the facilitator was Cheney.
http://www.cabinda.net/usdiplomacyangola.html

For purposes of this discussion, there are three types of mercenaries. .......
The third type provides highly specialized services with a military application, but these groups are not in themselves notably military or paramilitary in organization or methods. Although members of such an organization may or may not have military experience or training, they have skills and abilities with military as well as civilian use. These are usually much smaller than the first two types, performing such functions as personal protection, signal intercept, computer "cracking," secure communications, or technical surveillance. An example of these is AirScan, a company based in Titusville, Florida. According to the company's website, AirScan "provides day/night operational superiority," performing "airborne surveillance and security operations and specialized consulting services for a variety of customers across a number of mission areas. Many of our clients require discretion and their privacy is respected." Like most such firms, the company serves a wide variety of clients, including the US Department of the Interior and multinational oil companies.<14> In Angola, AirScan uses light twin-engine aircraft (Cessna 337s), equipped with low-light television, infrared, and other sensors, to provide aerial surveillance on the periphery of oil fields.
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/99summer/...

Mercenary Bastards
Who's been hiring the dogs of war?
http://www.gettingit.com/article/538

AirScan currently has contracts with the Department of State, Department of the Army, US Air Force, Governments of Angola and Columbia, and numerous other customers to perform airborne surveillance/security missions as well as tactical support missions for the military. The company, headquartered in Rockledge Florida, currently operates a fleet of Cessna C-337 Skymasters outfitted with the latest electro/optical/infrared surveillance systems.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele....

Apparently, the multimillion dollar systems were not all that helpful in locating Savimbi. However, legitimate questions exist about what U.S. official and unofficial intelligence resources were brought to bear on the recalcitrant ex-US. ally Savimbi. Under CIA Director George Tenet's new authority to eliminate terrorists listed in his "worldwide attack matrix," it is open season on anyone the U.S. brands a terrorist. According to US government sources, Savimbi was tracked by the military forces of U.S. NATO ally Portugal, who were aided by private mercenaries from Israel and South Africa. Jardo Muekalia, who headed UNITA's Washington office until it was forced to close in 1997, says that that the military forces that ultimately succeeded in assassinating Savimbi were supported by COMMERCIAL SATELLITE IMAGERY and other intelligence support provided by Houston-based Brown & Root, Cheney's old outfit. Both the State Department and Pentagon vehemently deny any US government role in the killing of Savimbi.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=2576

The Cabinda operation is under the command of AirScan Brigadier General (Ret) Joe Stringham who, for some years during the civil war period, ran clandestine American military operations in El Salvador.
Like MPRI, AirScan's origins are vague. There are reports within the shadowy world of contemporary "Soldiers of fortune", that those associated with the company have been involved in running guns from Uganda to the Sudanese People's Liberation Army in southern Sudan. The rewards for such work are good.
The lowest pay for "grunts" in Cabinda is $225 a day. Those involved in gun-running ventures receive a bit more. In northern Uganda, it is argued, the risks are greater.
Tours of duty are in weeks rather than months: six on and six off, either back in the US or a destination of choice, as long as the air fare is commensurate. Many of the contractors head for Sun City. No money is earned by lower-ranking AirScan personnel while on furlough.
By all accounts, AirScan's relations with the corrupt luanda government are "testy".
Stringham had been made promises by the angolans about accommodation and recreation facilities such as a swimming pool for his men, but little has been forthcoming. There is a pool at the unit base: it is filled with garbage. Just about every item required by the force is flown in, including drinking water.
Conditions within Cabinda are regarded as insecure by those who have recently been there. No AirScan member of staff can go into town without a heavily armed escort. There is no fraternising with the locals or members of the expatriate portuguese community. Until 1975, Cabinda was a portuguese Protectorate.
http://www.cabinda.net/Cabinda02.html

"Even if it turns out that Occidental says, and is able to prove, there wasn't an intentional bombing of the hamlet, they still have to answer for the fact that cluster bombs were dropped with the participation of AirScan people in a situation where so many civilians were killed. And that's just a blatant violation of the laws of war, whether they intended to kill civilians or not,"
http://www.laborrights.org/press/oxy042503.htm
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
65. Taking the Mickey out of the mouse.
We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website. If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.

objection says:
George Bush has a strong claim to be credible. Or do you mean to presume that the very purpose of the American people is something other than to elect a credible person? If you believe yourself to be more credible by all means stand for election.

Am I the only one getting rather hungry?

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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. What about the ones who merely pretend to support DU ideals?
Why do they get to enjoy the benefits of using this forum to undermine people who don't buy their support of the 9/11 lies told by bushco? Why do THEY get a pass? Shouldn't THEY be invited to go to websites where the bushco choir hangs out? And, while we're at it, am I correct that it's ok to question the motives of Dick Eastman or Joe Vialls or a publication that contains an article "they" don't like? Shouldn't the Dick Eastmans (and supporters) be able to do likewise to the stealth right-wingers here?

Yes, peristalsis is definitely starting up.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. If you see stealth right wingers, Hiroo, hit the alert button.
Let the moderators decide who can post here and who can't.

Dick Eastman, Joe Vialls, and the prolific Anablep-stalker Gerard Holmgren are charlatans and liemongers. And those who feel the need to quote WhatReallyHappened.com or the American Free Press should understand that the racist suppositions of those sites exclude them from a serious discussion of anything.

Why don't you stick to the facts and answer some questions, Abe? Leave the dark innuendo aside and let the moderators do their job.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. Are you a STEALTH right winger?
Or just another liberal admirer of the bush Administration's 9/11 Fairy Tale?
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. DU Rules
Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #69
92. Finally,
Edited on Tue Jul-27-04 09:25 PM by DulceDecorum
BOLOboffin publicly admits the presence of A STALKER on the DU board.

BOLOboffin says:
Dick Eastman, Joe Vialls, and the prolific Anablep-stalker Gerard Holmgren are charlatans and liemongers.

Anablep was NEVER stalked by Gerard Holmgren.
Quite the opposite.

BOLOboffin, I think you had better go read the rules.
AGAIN.
Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

Dick Eastman and Gerard Holmgren
are both registered members of the Democratic Underground.
You, sir, owe them both an apology.

Somehow though,
I doubt that one will be forthcoming.
And I am not in the least bit surprised
to see BOLOboffin come out
AGAINST those who question
objectionable Diebold statements such as this:
George Bush has a strong claim to be credible. Or do you mean to presume that the very purpose of the American people is something other than to elect a credible person? If you believe yourself to be more credible by all means stand for election.

First of all,
GORE WON.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/11/12_...

Bush is a loser
http://www.infernalpress.com/Columns/election.html
and a charlatan
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0328-01.htm
and a liemonger.
http://www.bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm
Bush has NO credibility whatsoever.
http://www.house.gov/appropriations_democrats/caughtonf...
http://bootnewt.tripod.com/bushwantsbodybags.htm

objection says:
George Bush has a strong claim to be credible. Or do you mean to presume that the very purpose of the American people is something other than to elect a credible person? If you believe yourself to be more credible by all means stand for election.

I take that to mean that
objection SUPPORTS the pResidency of George Dubya Bush.
How do YOU take it,
BOLOboffin?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #94
107. From Dov Zakheim
and PNAC
the subject has been diverted to Dick Eastman.

The first website you posted has carefully culled authors with curious views.
http://69.28.73.17/authorprofiles/authorprofiles.html
The website itself does not appear to identify itself or list its goals.
This is never a a good sign.
Even AMF and WRH each have a page upon which they identify themselves and their objectives. But the website you have chosen to link to appears to have no such page.

As for your comment on hatred and conspiracies,
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/456367.html
let us consider the work of Jared Israel
whose work is also found on your link:

The policy of Nazification, pursued by the US establishment starting at the end of World War II, meant that though the Germans lost the war, Nazis came to dominate powerful institutions in many countries. This was truly a world catastrophe.
First the US Establishment preserved the deadly plague of Nazism intact. Made it the dominant force in the secret services of the US and Germany and spread the disease around the world.
Then for 35 years they buried the truth in classified documents.
http://emperors-clothes.com/coverup/summary.htm

WHO
could Jared Israel possibly be referring to???
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_acti...

The second link you posted concerning world domination,
was disturbing to say the least.
However,it is STILL against DU rules to heap verbal abuse upon registered members.
And now back to PNAC.

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.
We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.
Elliott Abrams
Gary Bauer
William J. Bennett
Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney
Eliot A. Cohen
Midge Decter
Paula Dobriansky
Steve Forbes
Aaron Friedberg
Francis Fukuyama
Frank Gaffney
Fred C. Ikle
Donald Kagan
Zalmay Khalilzad
I. Lewis Libby
Norman Podhoretz
Dan Quayle
Peter W. Rodman
Stephen P. Rosen
Henry S. Rowen
Donald Rumsfeld
Vin Weber
George Weigel
Paul Wolfowitz

Much of the media attention to the American negotiating position on the ICC concentrated on the risks perceived by the Pentagon to American peacekeepers stationed around the world. As real as those risks may be, especially under the concept of universal jurisdiction,
OUR REAL CONCERN SHOULD BE FOR OUR pRESIDENT AND HIS TOP ADVISERS.
The definition of WAR CRIMES includes, for example: INTENTIONALLY DIRECTING ATTACKS AGAINST THE CIVILIAN POPULATION SUCH AS OR AGAINST INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS NOT TAKING DIRECT PART IN HOSTILITIES. A fair reading of this provision leaves one unable to answer with confidence the question whether the United States was guilty of war crimes for its aerial bombing campaigns over Germany and Japan in World War II. A fortiori, these provisions seem to imply that the U.S. would have been guilty of a war crime for dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/global0201.htm

Laws of War :
General Orders No. 100
INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF ARMIES OF THE UNITED STATES IN THE FIELD

Art. 33.
It is no longer considered lawful - on the contrary, it is held to be a serious breach of the law of war - to force the subjects of the enemy into the service of the victorious government, except the latter should proclaim, after a fair and complete conquest of the hostile country or district, that it is resolved to keep the country, district, or place permanently as its own and make it a portion of its own country.

Art. 44.
All wanton violence committed against persons in the invaded country, all destruction of property not commanded by the authorized officer, all robbery, all pillage or sacking, even after taking a place by main force, all rape, wounding, maiming, or killing of such inhabitants, are prohibited under the penalty of death, or such other severe punishment as may seem adequate for the gravity of the offense.
A soldier, officer or private, in the act of committing such violence, and disobeying a superior ordering him to abstain from it, may be lawfully killed on the spot by such superior.

SECTION IX
Assassination
Art. 148.
The law of war does not allow proclaiming either an individual belonging to the hostile army, or a citizen, or a subject of the hostile government, an outlaw, who may be slain without trial by any captor, any more than the modern law of peace allows such intentional outlawry; on the contrary, it abhors such outrage. The sternest retaliation should follow the murder committed in consequence of such proclamation, made by whatever authority. Civilized nations look with horror upon offers of rewards for the assassination of enemies as relapses into barbarism.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lieber.htm

OUR REAL CONCERN SHOULD BE FOR OUR pRESIDENT AND HIS TOP ADVISERS.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. Flagrant hypocrisy.
DU Rule:

Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere.


The quote against me, put completely out of context, is already answered elsewhere.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #96
101. The objectionable name-calling continues.
The quote came from this thread.
Post #34 which has now been deleted
had a picture of Mickey Mouse, a sarcastic comment and that quote.

Refresh my memory.
WHERE have you addressed the fact that you have stated point blank:
"George Bush has a strong claim to be credible."

Please explain how that statement
is in ANY way accurate,
factually,
in ANY context.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. DU Rule:
Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere.

You do intend to respect the rule, don't you?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. You do not intend to answer a legitimate question or respect DD, do you?
What is your objection to answering a question about your own statement?
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #105
108.  I responded

on the appropriate thread.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #108
121. WHERE?
THIS is the thread you where posted that comment.

Post 34 (now deleted)
objection says:
George Bush has a strong claim to be credible. Or do you mean to presume that the very purpose of the American people is something other than to elect a credible person? If you believe yourself to be more credible by all means stand for election.

RULES
If you wish to contribute to the defeat of the Democratic candidate for president, then you are welcome to use someone else's bandwidth on some other website. As the election season draws closer, we may expand this rule to include Democratic candidates for other political offices.
Democratic Underground may not be used for political organizing activity by supporters of any political party other than the Democratic party.

I take this to mean that Zell Miller democRATS should
shove it.
And Bush was NOT elected.


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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. For the record:

The deleted message #37 contained no such comment, which is why I take exception so strongly to DulceDecorum deliberately breaking the rule by posting #65 ad sibsequent attempts to falsely give the impression that my message #37 did contain the comment that #65 needlessly repeats .

The comment appeared in a completely different context, in the SPIEGEL thread about the two gates at Boston. I'd fish around to supply a link except that I've obviously already spent much more time here than was good for me. More pleasing matters press for attention, with no time to spare to entertain inconsistent immoderation.

The original context was one of credibility as a matter of fact, not as a question of merit. My views on merit are evident elsewhere. The confusion was unfortunate but it was therefore immediately attended to, so DulceDecorum's indulgently ignorant persistence here is thus especially offensive and maliciously disingenuous. My positon was already made perfectly clear on the other thread. I do not and never did support any Republican. I am a committed Internationalist.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #124
128. "committed internationalist"? What is THAT supposed to mean?
First, you talk about how credible the unelected Bush is, then when someone finally calls you on the carpet (after dozens of messages which seem to be for no other purpose than to disparage progressive Democrats,
undermine discussions about what really happened on 9/11, and act as a bomb thrower for those who seem more like Disinformation agents and PR firm employees than objective truth seekers), you then resort to the right-wing's favorite tactics to avoid answering for what you've said an done by claiming first denying the legitimacy of the question, then changing the subject, then claiming you've already answered the question, and finally. defining yourself as someone who obviously does not belong here.

Go start your own forum for "committed internationalists", take the others with you, and kindly leave us alone.

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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #128
131. Make your mind up.

Want to be alone or want an answer?

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #131
135. Some time back,
I suggested that if one person managed to get six posts deleted in a single thread,
they should face some form of reprobation.

This thread has now accumlated a considerable number of deleted posts
from someone who is disrupting the discussion on Dov Zakheim
and disrupting poorly.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #124
134. Not true
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 12:00 PM by DulceDecorum
You posted the comment on THIS thread beneath a picture of Mickey Mouse. Any post you may have made on the Speigel thread has been deleted and I repeat my assertion

objection says:
George Bush has a strong claim to be credible. Or do you mean to presume that the very purpose of the American people is something other than to elect a credible person? If you believe yourself to be more credible by all means stand for election.
Objection has come RIGHT out
on the Democratic Underground
in support of George Bush.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

objection now says:
The original context was one of credibility as a matter of fact, not as a question of merit. My views on merit are evident elsewhere. The confusion was unfortunate but it was therefore immediately attended to,

Factually incorrect.

The post contained a sarcastic comment aimed at a fellow poster,
and was therefore deleted.
Your acerbic position does not appear to have changed.

Post #125 NOBODY
gets to run to be President of the United States without a strong claim to be credible. That is how the system works. It may yet be worth a shot but no politician ever yet stood up to say "Vote for me; I am not credible".
By all means, please, proceed to demolish the Bush claim.
That is another matter.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. Others here

will have seen what really was in that post.

So at least then they now know that much more about the true nature of "DuleDecorum".



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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #136
138. Others saw it all right,
and some even have screen shots.
Regulars to this forum
already know all about true credibility.
Vistors can see
just how badly you have disrupted
this thread which is about Dov Zaheim.

Why do you NOT want us to discuss Dov Zakheim?
Or the antics of one Prescott Bush?
Or Global Hawk technology
and its abuses against humanity?
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. The Mickey message #37
that apparently failed to appeal to your sense of humor intended to enquire as to the pertinence to Dov Zakheim of message #345, "Remember N844AA?"

Anybody with an understanding was perfectly welcome to explain, as they are now.

Or to guess.

I am sure you'll think of something.

It would also be of interest to see an explanation of "Am I the only one getting rather hungry?"

Do not steal someone else's bandwidth by posting images that are hosted on another website. Democratic Underground is a high-traffic website, so posting images from other sites will cause their server load to increase dramatically, and might even cost the website owner money. If you wish to post an image from another website, you must contact the owner of the other website to get their consent.

If you post copyrighted images, always post the source of the image.

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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #134
142.  Why

would a comment about GW Bush would be posted with an image of Mickey Mouse?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #142
145. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. Bologna rejects the meat grinder???
If Bush said the sun would rise in the east tomorrow, that would be a credible statement. Just because Bush is a corrupt moron doesn't mean he's not occasionally right.

Really, I expected better...
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #146
153. Don't worry, the censors are hard at work - taking down messages.
.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. DU Rules
Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper.

Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere.


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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
93. George Bush is no longer credible?
You DID say that didn't you?
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. DU Rules:

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper.

Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere.

You do intend to respect the rules, don't you?

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #97
120. objection said Bush is credible
and it would appear that
he has no intention of taking that statement back.

objection says:
George Bush has a strong claim to be credible. Or do you mean to presume that the very purpose of the American people is something other than to elect a credible person? If you believe yourself to be more credible by all means stand for election.

Well, well, well,
a Zell Miller "democRAT."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/0...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/25/miller.rnc /

So, to clarify: thus far Zell Miller has endorsed George W. Bush (Idiots 133), written a book slamming Democrats (Idiots 136), started an organization called "Democrats for Bush" dedicated to bashing John Kerry (Idiots 149), wanted to stop the 9/11 investigation because it would "energize our enemies and demoralize our troops" (Idiots 150), and has now announced that he will be speaking at the Republican National Convention. Zell, in the words of our illustrious vice president, fuck yourself.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/161.html

I would ask you, objection, WHY you are here but then again...
Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot, a former Montana governor, said the campaign would use Miller often on the trail, particularly to rally fellow Democrats to the cause. Miller urged Democratic Bush-backers to find at least five others they could persuade to support the president.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115119,00.html
I think you might just have filled your quota.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #120
126. taking that statement back?

:eyes:

The statement was deleted.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #68
95. Hmmmm
does that mean the BOLOboffin was WRONG
in referring to Dick Eastman and Gerard Holmgren
as charlatans and liemongers?
whaddayasay objection?
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. The rules are clear.

As is the background of Dick Eastman.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #98
119. From Dov Zakheim
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 12:59 AM by DulceDecorum
and PNAC
the subject has been diverted to Dick Eastman.

Since you have offered that Dick Eastman is not kosher,
let us look at others of his ilk.

objection says:
George Bush has a strong claim to be credible.

Bush - Nazi Link Confirmed
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_acti...

Bush - Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951 - Federal Documents
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_acti...

Loftus - I want a full Congressional investigation and I think your reporting in the Gazette certainly justifies one. I want the cover-up itself investigated, and I want the long-concealed Nazi histories of these families brought out to the public.
Buchanan - Who should investigate?
Loftus - Now that this information has finally come out, I am calling for full investigations by both the House and Senate Judiciary committees. Well see where it goes from there. But I want the cover-up fully and aggressively investigated. The American people and Congress have a right to find out how this happened, to make sure it never happens again. Its too late for justice, but its never too late for the truth. The American people and survivors of the Holocaust and veterans of the war are entitled to the truth.
Buchanan - Why hasnt it come out before?
Loftus - President Clinton wanted all the Nazi files declassified, but it didnt happen fast enough. Some of the documents you saw on I.G. Farben were only declassified a few days before you walked into the archives. You were very lucky, Id say
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_acti...

objection says:
George Bush has a strong claim to be credible. Or do you mean to presume that the very purpose of the American people is something other than to elect a credible person? If you believe yourself to be more credible by all means stand for election.

So, objection,
is George Bush
aka your favorite chickenhawk
http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_acti...
at least as credible as his business partners?
You could start with a discussion on the merits of Kenny-Boy,
or would you prefer to commence with Unka Jonathan of Riggs Bank?
http://www.bushwatch.net/bushmillions.html

And now, back to the neoCONS.
http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/index.html
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #119
125. Nobody

gets to run to be President of the United States without a strong claim to be credible. That is how the system works. It may yet be worth a shot but no politician ever yet stood up to say "Vote for me; I am not credible".

By all means, please, proceed to demolish the Bush claim.

That is another matter.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #125
137. From Dov to Bush to crediblity
All that info on how Bush got his money from ripping off people
(Eastman has yet to make a dime from exploiting)
and you come back with a claim of the credibilty of the pResident.

You call yourself an internationalist.
How is that different from a neocon?
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #137
149. the difference
Neocons are a small exclusive clique of American unilateralits who bind themselves in a nutshell so as to count themselves as kings of infinite space.

True Internationalism is the opposite: a large, open, Worldwide understanding of multilateralists willing to perform internationally because of bad dreams.

(with due apology to Hamlet: Act II, Scene II)

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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #119
129. "objection" says he's a "committed internationalist". Neofascist?
That's what it sounds like to me. Maybe the "dynamic trio" will help him define himself in a way that gives him a little distance from the neo-fascists he seems to have most in common with.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #129
133. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Flight Termination System



http://www.sysplan.com/Radar/Downloads/FTS.pdf
http://www.sysplan.com/Radar/FTS

Check out the base unit in the PDF. I'm guessing that shot was taken in Osamas cave. Osama, being the evil criminal ubergenuis that he is , knew he couldn't rely on Atta, with his high cholesterol and affinity for fine coccata, to pull off the greatest caper of all time. So he invested in SPC.

I can't find the picture of the ENIAC that Osama was rumored to be running promis software on ,given to him by Saddam, somewhere in the mountains of Tora Bora. Osama allegdly made a killing in put options and heroin money filtered though the WTC computers right before they turned to dust-destroying all evidence and allowing Osama to laze away the days in the lush suburbs of Pakistan. :crazy:
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yep, I neither dug deep enough into the PDF files..nor
read the original article close enough.

I see whereas they also have a contract with Seattle Tacoma container shipping and Homeland Security issues.

That's comforting
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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. WTC computers
>"Osama allegdly made a killing in put options and heroin money filtered though the WTC computers right before they turned to dust-destroying all evidence and allowing Osama to laze away the days in the lush suburbs of Pakistan."

Heres a quote on this from a source i wasnt aware of until yesterday :

"An unexplained surge in transactions was recorded prior to the attacks, leading to speculation that someone might have profited from previous knowledge of the terrorist plot by moving sums of money. But because the facilities of many financial companies processing the transactions were housed in New York's World Trade Center, destroyed in the blasts, it has until now been impossible to verify that suspicion." http://storage.itworld.com/4650/IDG011219clues/page_1.h...

So the german firm Conwar was trying to recover the data from the hard-discs.

" That's where Convar Systeme Deutschland GmbH comes in. The company is helping reconstruct data from hard disk drives found in the ruins of the twin towers."

But alas:

"The bad news is, that Convar, who started to work on
it, was aquired by Kroll, a Pentagon contractor..."

And the investigation has apparently been halted.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. "impossible" is ridiculous

If any interest has a proceed to claim from any transaction there must be a trace of it apart from anything lost in the WTC. As a simple matter of common sense with no a record of any benefit there is no possible ownership of it.

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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Looks like
you are going to be in my throat every time I post something.

( Here is the same formulation (with "impossible") from CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/12/20/wtc.harddri... / )

Ofcourse your objection is not less valid because the CNN reported it as "impossible".
I dont know if it is impossible. But it seems to me a good point that if there are other ways to track down the people who did it, it has not been done.

Since youre gonna be in my throat, I might as well provide you with some good reading.

"According to Phil Erlanger, a former Senior Technical Analyst with Fidelity , and founder of a Florida firm that tracks short selling and options trading, insiders made off with billions (not mere millions) in profits by betting on the fall of stocks they knew would tumble in the aftermath of the WTC and Pentagon attacks."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/HEN204B.html
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
25.  I read the contemporary news reports back in 2001

It began with the put option story, assuming that Bin Laden affiliates had their hands in the till. Then as soon as that failed to firm up the tale was dropped like a hot potato. Later on those who ought to know, in the financial press, said that with due regard to the bigger picture the trading spikes were not so unusual. Men see what they want to see and disregard the rest. Whichever the case the early bird missed the worm. You're unlikely to see any action on it. That's the point. If they're all willing to swallow "impossible" they'll swallow anything and there are too many other cans of worms to fish through.






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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Im not sure
Edited on Mon Jul-26-04 02:32 PM by k-robjoe
if I got your post right.

To me it sounds like youre making sense, only formulating it in a very cryptic way.

On edit : Just came across this article on the WTC hard-disc recovery : http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/9-11...

Ive only skimmed through the first part of it, but it looks like there is some interesting links in it.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. OK try it like this

99 percent of what I see in this vicinity is not only going to get nowhere, it has already demonstrably failed to get anywhere, and that's a shame because once you've shrugged off all the spurious distractions there are other lines of enquiry that may yet see some real progress. You can recognise these issues by the way that the bogus distraction nonsense suddenly crops up as if with vengeance whenever they happen to be mentioned.


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k-robjoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. M-hm
Lets just say you made yourself clear.

(Notice the edit to my previous post.)
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Noticed how apologists for bushco try to shift the focus?
They target Osama bin Straw Man as the shrewd short sellers! Poor old Osama gets called everything except what he is: CIA Asset/Patsy.
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
16. Col. Donn de Grand-Pre, U.S. Army (ret.): Explosive New 9/11 Revelations a
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'm sick to my stomach
"men's hearts will fail them" as the Bible says

I hope this is not the case

the evidence seems to piling up
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Is the pod for real or not !!? (eom)
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. You don't know yet? Then tell me...
Is this here, or not?
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Abe...I don't know what to believe
and what not to believe, too many liars lol

can you provide me some proof without having to go back and dig my little heart out.

Is there anything other than the pictures themselves?

I haven't followed the pod story enough to come to any real conclusion

I'm open ears!
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Wowee.
:wow:

Abe is asked to provide proof!

Don't hold your breath.

:cry:
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. EXPLOSIVE!!!!!
The conspiracy theorists deliberated for hours until they concluded that the flight crews of the passenger jets were not in control of the airplanes!

This is because they were lying DEAD ON THE FLOOR WHILE THE HIJACKERS FLEW THE PLANES.

Jeebus, what nonsense.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. You're beginning to sound like Dick Eastman

How do you know they were DEAD ON THE FLOOR?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. From the 9/11 Commission report.
I don't know that all the pilots were dead, but the idea of CT people sitting around for hours to figure out that the original flight crews weren't in control of the plane when they crashed is priceless to me.

If the original crews had remained in control of the planes, they would have flown to their intended destinations, correct?

Anyway, here's what we know about the state of the various flight crews from the report:

There's no word on the condition of Flight 11's cockpit crew. The two main sources, Betty Ong and Madeline Sweeney, couldn't get in contact with them.

Flight 175: Both pilots had been killed (reported by one flight attendant).

Flight 77: Barbara Olson said the captain announced the hijacking and asked what to tell the pilot.

Flight 93: Callers reported that a passenger had been stabbed and that two people were lying on the floor of the cabin,injured or deadpossibly the captain and first officer.One caller reported that a flight attendant had been killed.

So we know one crew was killed outright, one crew appeared to be dead, one pilot was evidently alive (unless Barbara mistook the voice of a hijacker for the pilot), and one crew whose condition was completely unknown.

I feel completely justified in saying all the cockpit crews were slaughtered. It's just my opinion, but there's a lot more evidence for it than remote controlled nonsense. Call me Dick Eastman if you want - I'm far from it.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Until recently, I would have said that you have a thing for Babs "Olson"
Preaching to the choir (that's a joke! I mean "Trio") & quoting from the Official Cover-up Report makes me feel completely justified in wanting to give an opinion about motivations, but not so much that I will.

In addition to Babs & Ted, who are some of your other fave right-wing extremists?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I dare you to stick to the subject, Abe.
I know you possess the ability to answer questions in a timely and substantive manner. Stop retreating to your baseless accusations and your dark innuendo. Deal with the subject at hand.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
99. How do you KNOW?
BOLOboffin says:
Anyway, here's what we know about the state of the various flight crews from the report:

How do you KNOW ANYTHING?
HOW did ANYONE make those phone calls?

The phone companies have NO RECORDS of ANY bills for ANY such calls.
The FAA had ordered the air-to-ground phones REMOVED from the planes since they were a FIRE HAZARD.

The cell-phones do NOT work at that altitude or speed.

And in the case of Ted
(hubby of Barby the Harpy, your fave rave)
we know for a FACT
that the executioners down in Texas
were forced to let a guy on death row
live an extra day or so
simply because
NOBODY COULD GET THROUGH TO THE US DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

The damn hijackers are still alive.
So THEY cannot have been aboard the plane.
So WHO WAS?
And HOW do you know?

We KNOW for a fact than an aircraft can disappear without trace.
How do you KNOW that N644AA is not hiding out with N844AA?
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. How do you KNOW

the phone companies have NO RECORDS of ANY bills for ANY such calls?

You got some kind of way to prove a negative?

We do KNOW that the accused are NOT still alive.

Remains were found. An autopsy was conducted.

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #100
123. The phone companies
said that there were no bills for the families
or the cell-phones or the airfones.
No credit card was EVER charged and
there is NO ACTUAL PROOF that ANY such calls were ever made.

Qualcomm Tests Cell Phones Aboard Plane
07.16.2004, 08:53 PM
The seatback phones use FAA-approved technology that doesn't interfere with jet navigation systems. And they were expensive. Airlines generally charge about $4 a minute plus a $4 access charge.
Even before Thursday it was widely known that cell phones will sometimes work on jetliners. On Sept. 11, 2001, several passengers aboard hijacked airliners called loved ones
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/2004...

When was the last time you saw a phone company
pass up a chance to make several bucks on a single call?

The seatphones are dangerous and
the FAA had revoked all permission to use them BEFORE september 11.The article above admits that AA had ripped them out of its planes - per FAA orders.

Furthermore, the pilot is supposed to be able to disable any electrical circuitry in the plane, just in case. All he has to do is pull the correct switch. Any time he feels like it.
It was real nice of those hijackers to let those people make all those phone calls. Maybe we should go and thank them and ask them how come they are still alive when their photos and bios are STILL hanging up on the FBI website.

As for your remains,
ever heard of TriState Crematory?
A lot of urns filled with "remains" of deceased people,
turned out to have potting soil or cement inside them.

As for your autopsies.
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/07/article_tro_flight7...

The two American Airlines planes were NOT scheduled to fly that day and the BTS records indicate that they NEVER actually took off.
The two United Airlines planes remain - apparently in good health - on the FAA register to this very day. N591UA has even been spotted around O'Hare. It is using the paperwork of N594UA.

We have stated the facts and our sources.
What do you have, a magic eight ball?
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #123
127. Of course there is a proof.

Testimony exists to the effect that the calls were recieved. A call is not recieved without being made.

When was the last time you saw a phone company pass up a chance to make several bucks on a single call?

If I recall correctly no charges were made for calls in New York while the Twin Towers burned. A free season was declared for public telephones.

How come that DulceDecorum, apparently with a link to supply to everything else in the universe has no link to anything about the phone records and billing?

What is the pertinence of the dangerous seatphones issue? Is it to be suggested that the use of the phones caused the destruction of one or more the aircraft?

I have noticed no evidence to indicate that TriState Crematory was in any way involved.

The Sierra Times Article is a gross distortion. Read the reproduced offical document. It simply does not say that there were no Arabs.

The two American Airlines planes were of course scheduled to fly. There is no possible doubt that tickets to fly were were sold. The BTS disclaimer was previous pointed out. Unauthorized attempts to utilize that system for other than its intended purposes are prohibited and may result in criminal prosecution. So why then persist so ignorantly?

It is extraordinarily difficult to detect anything at all within your contributions that is remotely relevant or strong against critical examination.

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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #127
130. Testimony? Ted Olson also claimed that HE got calls. Believe him, too?
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 09:06 AM by Abe Linkman
Since YOU and YOUR SIDE claim the calls were made, it is up to YOU to provide proof of same.

You haven't because you can't.
You can't because they didn't happen.

George bush said Iraq has WMD. That's HIS testimony, but the only person here who believes george BUSH is YOU. Your "partners" are too clever to be blunt, if indeed, they too share your views.

Upon critical examination, it appears that you have nothing to add here except "bombs" and BS.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #130
132. It is very sad to see

such a routinely unfortunate confusion of prejudice, belief, opinion and fact. You should consider the distinctions.

I propose no claim, just a simple appreciation of ordinary rules of evidence. Innocent until proved guilty.

I have never once said that I believe Bush about anything, nor do you have any proof that I did.




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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #127
140. Testimony exists
That part is true.
Ever heard of PERJURY?

objection says:
How come that DulceDecorum, apparently with a link to supply to everything else in the universe has no link to anything about the phone records and billing?

Well, I AM flattered, sir.
But I must tell you that
the phone records are either highly classified
or non-existent
and NO bills were EVER sent
to ANY addresses of ANY cell-phones
that were allegedly used by ANY passengers on September 11.

And the proof of that is
"that DulceDecorum, apparently with a link to supply to everything else in the universe has no link to anything about the phone records and billing."
http://www.petitiononline.com/11601TFS/petition.html

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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. anything substantial about the phone records

would have been a good start, so where please did the idea of people not being billed come from?

It would possibly be perjurous to simply make it up, would it not?

I have certainly not heard of PERJURY in the sense that if you knew of any proof of perjury we would presumably have heard all about it by now, so in the mean time the testimony is entitled to stand.

CAPITAL LETTERS prove nothing but desperation.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. 8 out of 8
Hani Hanjour..a svelte 5'7",155..boy I guess he and his buddy manhandled those two Flight 77 pilots.8 out of 8...pretty good day for slitting large bodied pilot and co-pilots throats. And to think that the crew on #93 knew about the other hijackings. Well. no need to worry. Lets keep that cockpit door open...I mean wouldn't you do the same..after having knowlege of the other hijackings? No need to tilt the plane and put their asses on the floor."Come on in boys...here... have a seat..."
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. That could well be close to the truth.

Why risk violence if you can bribe or talk your way in?

The same had been done by others before.



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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. this ain't Amateur Hour!
The Flight 93 crew were well aware of the other three hijackings. They would not have let these "hijackers" in the cockpit without putting their lives on the line and they were physically bigger(the crew) and could have used the throttle to their advantage. Advantage...crew.This was a one time big time operation to push the American public into rubber stamping the planned trillion dollar middle east war adventure which is unfolding right before our eyes. No time for amateur Arab pilots(who,by all records were not too adept as flyers) doing acrobatic flight maneuvers and subduing healthy strong pilots with box cutters. This ain't Amateur Hour, this is WWlll.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. Funny you should mention Flight 93...
From the 9/11 Commission report:

The hijackers attacked at 9:28. While traveling 35,000 feet above eastern Ohio, United 93 suddenly dropped 700 feet. Eleven seconds into the descent, the FAAs air traffic control center in Cleveland received the first of two radio transmissions from the aircraft. During the first broadcast, the captain or first officer could be heard declaring Mayday amid the sounds of a physical struggle in the cockpit. The second radio transmission, 35 seconds later, indicated that the fight was continuing. The captain or first officer could be heard shouting:Hey get out of here get out of here get out of here.(71)

So there was a sudden descent, a protracted physical struggle, an attempt to transmit a Mayday call...yeah, those smooth talking al-Qaeda types can be quite boisterious when playing buddy-buddy with their new pilot friends.

The cockpit voice recorder didn't preserve this struggle evidently. The flight back to Washington took longer than the 30 minute loop of the CVR. But it did record an interesting event in the hijackers' fluent locution:

The cockpit voice recorder data indicate that a woman, most likely a flight attendant, was being held captive in the cockpit. She struggled with one of the hijackers who killed or otherwise silenced her.(76)

Also, the Commission states their belief that the hijacker pilot of 93 remained seated until the other three hijackers had taken control of the cockpit. That's why some passengers only reported three hijackers. So I'd say that the small framed Hani Hanjour also stayed clear of the physical struggle. Atta did, and the other similarities between the Flight 11 and 175 hijackings makes it plausible that the hijacker pilot of 175 did the same.

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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. They knew..
The crew knew of the other hijackings at circa 9:00. The cockpit doors would obviously been locked. The pilot and co-pilot would have been on alert..as well as the rest of the crew. 9-11 commission findings aren't bonafide fact bolo...do your homework..this government has always had fixers...Arlen Spectre,Gerald Ford,Hamilton,Kerry et al. Those transmissions could have been broadcast from anywhere and from anyone. They prove nothing. And certainly would not be admissable in a court of law. A simple tilt and these supposed hijackers would have been bouncing on their keysters. After the reports of the other 3 takeovers..do you think the pilot and co-pilot would have given aN INCH...NO..WAY..IN..HELL!!!!!!!I have supreme confidence in my physically and mentally fit American pilots.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. You need to give in to the facts of the case, demodewd.
From the 9/11 report:

Uniteds first decisive action to notify its airborne aircraft to take defensive action did not come until 9:19, when a United flight dispatcher, Ed Ballinger, took the initiative to begin transmitting warnings to his 16 transcontinental flights: Beware any cockpit intrusion Two a/c hit World Trade Center. One of the flights that received the warning was United 93. Because Ballinger was still responsible for his other flights as well as Flight 175, his warning message was not transmitted to Flight 93 until 9:23.(69)

By all accounts, the first 46 minutes of Flight 93s cross-country trip proceeded routinely. Radio communications from the plane were normal. Heading, speed, and altitude ran according to plan. At 9:24, Ballingers warning to United 93 was received in the cockpit. Within two minutes, at 9:26, the pilot, Jason Dahl, responded with a note of puzzlement: Ed, confirm latest mssg plzJason.(70)

The hijackers attacked at 9:28. While traveling 35,000 feet above eastern Ohio, United 93 suddenly dropped 700 feet. Eleven seconds into the descent, the FAAs air traffic control center in Cleveland received the first of two radio transmissions from the aircraft. During the first broadcast, the captain or first officer could be heard declaring Mayday amid the sounds of a physical struggle in the cockpit. The second radio transmission, 35 seconds later, indicated that the fight was continuing. The captain or first officer could be heard shouting:Hey get out of hereget out of hereget out of here.(71)


You're off on your estimated time of Flight 93 being notified. They got word of the possible threat four minutes before they were attacked.

Those transmissions could not have come from anywhere. The ATCs had been communicating with the plane for 46 minutes.

Those transmissions would easily be admitted to a court of law, as would the cockpit voice recorder, which captured the last thirty minutes of Flight 93.

A simple tilt and the hijackers would have been bouncing on their keysters...along with the rest of the United Airlines passengers. Do you think concern for the innocent passengers might have been a factor in that decision?

The pilot and co-pilot did fight back, demodewd. So did their passengers. Unfortunately, the hijackers won.

While we're at it, here's a question I really want to hear an answer to: When you say that this government has always had fixers and call John Kerry one of them, how exactly do you see that helping him win the Presidency in November 2004?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Question for YOU, bolo
As an apologist for the buscho 9/11 Conspiracy Theory, and as disruptive
spinner whose only purpose here is apparently to try and undermine people who are convinced that bushco lied about 9/11 (and plenty of other things, too)...how exactly do you see what you're doing as helping John Kerry to win the Presidency in November, 2004?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. Since you have answered a question of mine, Abe...
...I'm happy to answer this one.

First off, your premises are wrong. You paint me as an apologist for BushCo and a disruptive spinner. I am neither.

I am not here to try and undermine people who are convinced that BushCo lied about 9/11. I am here to correct the record. Facts are facts, Abraham. You are free to post and believe anything you want to, but you should never expect, as long as I'm allowed to post here, that you won't get called on your bullsh*t. I have no doubts that your motives are pure, and if I believed what you believe about BushCo, I might very well consider someone like me to be an agent in their behalf.

But I am only an advocate for the truth, based on the facts, based on the evidence.

How does this help John Kerry? Because it helps the surfing bystander understand that this is not a place that believes every silly hypothesis dreamed up by revisionist wackos. It's a place that debates any possibility, and comes to a consensus based on the facts, and not wishful thinking and hatred. It's a place above the usual Internet cut, in short.

By allowing real debate and making the standard one of facts and evidence instead of hatred and accusation, DU becomes a place that's considered trustworthy. As an open forum, you expect a certain amount of wacky accusation and smartassery, but if it's tempered by an painstaking devotion to truth, then people will become more open to the conclusions of the majority of DU members.

And as an important Internet tool for organizing voters around important issues, DU must be seen as trustworthy. That helps John Kerry.

So that's your answer, Abe. By raising the standard of discussion here at DU, I see myself as one small part of helping DU become a viable contributor to the marketplace of ideas. That helps one of DU's primary short-term goals, to see John Kerry elected in November.

There is such a thing as too much hatred, Abe. Any human is susceptible to it, and it blinds judgment and clouds rational thinking. I think Bush is bad enough without having to see him and his masters behind every evil thing that benefits them. Is Bush taking shameless advantage of the 9/11 attacks? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that he or his cohorts were planning the event. It doesn't even mean that he wanted it to happen.

And wild accusations based on flimsy evidence, such as Flight 77 denial and the missile pod extravaganza, do nothing to find the truth of what happened that day. They contribute nothing to the election efforts of John Kerry - they are in fact antithetical to it. Demodewd just yesterday called Kerry a "fixer" of situations for the government, equating him in his fevered imagination with BushCo. How does that help John Kerry get elected, Abe?

How about you? Since I've now answered your question, you'll be so kind as to answer one of mine...and it's the same as the one you've put to me, which I answered.

How does your posting here help get John Kerry elected in November?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Countering Disinfo & Official Conspiracy Theory PR
I'm here to learn what really happened on 9/11 and to do my best to point out disinformation and Official Conspiracy Theory PR. Even though there are only a handful of people (some have more than one identity) here who disrupt and undermine the truth about 9/11, that handful never stops trying to thwart the efforts of those of us who have long known that the Official Conspiracy Theory is a total lie. It's a lot of propaganda to counter, but somebody's got to make an effort to do so.

btw - Do you know of ANYONE else who claims to be a supporter of Kerry and who is also an active apologist for the bushco 9/11 Conspiracy Theory?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. Some have more than one identity? Really?
Got any evidence of that? I'm sure the moderators would be happy to see whatcha got.

If all you have to counter the 9/11 commission report is missile pods, Flight 77 denial, and controlled demolitions, then you're going to have to get used to being against the world, Abe. Sounds like you're up for the challenge, but it's going to get lonely up on that mountain.

I know plenty of Kerry supporters who understand that Osama bin Laden used 19 al-Qaeda operatives to conduct an unprecedented attack upon America. There's nothing that connects this exclusively to BushCo: this is something that John Kerry understands himself. Are they actively involved in keeping the weeds of CT down around this truth? No. They lack the motivations that I do, and that's perfectly fine.

Online, of course, we've got MercutioATC, LARED, Oude, vincent, and our self-appointed referee objection. I actually don't know where their loyalties lie in the upcoming campaign, but I gather that they are Kerry supporters because they're here. Why else would someone be posting here?

If all you've got to say I'm a BushCo apologist is that I think Osama did it based on the evidence, then that's mighty weak.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. WHAT evidence, bolo. WHAT evidence?
"If all you've got to say I'm a BushCo apologist is that I think Osama did it based on the evidence, then that's mighty weak."

The evidence is not only weak, it's nonexistent.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #72
86. Your entire demeanor would be different if you were here to ...
Edited on Tue Jul-27-04 07:21 PM by Abe Linkman
be fair, objective, and interested in learning the truth about what really happened on 9/11. What you do is not helpful to those of us who
are here to discuss and learn the truth. What YOU do does not contribute to that. If you really wanted to be fair, you wouldn't even be here. THAT'S why you are considered a detriment and divisive presence. We aren't here to be taunted because we don't buy the fairy tale you are here to sell. Frankly, I'm sure most people here would just as soon that those who are apologists for the bushco 9/11 Conspiracy Theory leave, so that we don't have to deal with the BS, and instead can devote our time, attention, and energy to the reason why WE are here.
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. TThis reminds me a a stock message board war between
Edited on Tue Jul-27-04 07:40 PM by midwayer
the shorts and the longs. I think much of this is due to the stagnation in the research in which a wall has been hit. Exactly the frustration Kaminsky is expressing in his article as of today.

We need more SOLID evidence and until something breaks it's almost a waste of time.

My feeling is we may eventually, over time, see some more info trickle out, whether it be in favor of the Bush apologists or the Conspiracy theorist's only time will tell.

Abe I'm with you pretty much with you here and I think what some may be forgetting is the roots of the issue i.e. the Northwoods Doc,PNAC,Straussian Ideology, and I'm sure many more I could discuss on down the line.

I think these types of fundamental issues are what sets the plausible foundation for the conspiracy seperate from the technical details.

just some thoughts
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #88
106. roots?

Northwoods?

You might as well cite the Garden of Eden.

Tell us please; what sort of SOLID evidence do you have to make you think that "Northwoods" is authentic to begin with?

Did you ever hear from one person who was there at the time to vouch for it?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
73. Bob Kerry
Bob Kerry..you know the ex-senator that was on the commission? Four minutes is a lifetime when it takes the crew ten seconds to correspond with the attendants and to secure the cockpit door. You should try to investigate the Warren Commission and all the other fixed "Commissions" that our government has conducted the last 50 years or so. Try the RFK inquiry. What makes this commission different? They start out by ASSUMING that Osama bin Laden was culpable WITHOUT EVEN putting his case on trial. That invalidates anything and everything these fixers were up to. How do you justify that bolodude? You assume the accused and proceed from there? What is this...a Stalinist Inquiry? A Commission telling us what happened on that day when they completey closed the door on a legitimate inquiry into who may have been actually actually culpable. What a shameful travesty. And you support these people and apparently believe them. Shame on you.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Amen, demodewd,
It's important that people who are new to trying to find out what REALLY happened on 9/11 know that there are a few people here, like bolo, who
do everything in their power to undermine anything that conflicts with the "Evildoer Cavemen Did It" Official Conspiracy Theory.

If one is an advocate for "Osama did it", then fine. Just be man enough to say so. This BS of pretending to be something else is disgusting.



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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Okay, Abe. I'm an advocate for "Osama did it." As if I've never said that.
Why do you feel the need to paint me as hiding my beliefs on this matter? I've always said that Osama did it. I've never hidden that.

Why don't you stick to the messages and stop attacking me, Abe?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. You mean Bob Kerrey?
A "e" distinguishes John Kerry from Bob Kerrey, especially when you're using last names only, demodewd.

Look at the evidence they present, demo. 19 associates of OSL got on those planes. This is provable by phone records, banking transactions, traceable travel paths, meetings...Osama bin Laden was culpable in these attacks.

Every investigation starts with a hypothesis and proceeds from there. As evidence is discovered and weighed, the hypothesis gains acceptance, loses acceptance, or is modified to fit the facts. No evidence ever ruled out Osama. No evidence ever led anywhere else.

Was the 9/11 Commission limited in its scope? Then it can only be used to talk about what it was meant to - and what happened on that day is what it's talking about. There are no references to missile pods or remote-controlled airplanes or controlled demolitions...because these things did not happen. Excluding these scenarios from the inquiry doesn't invalidate the report at all. It validates the report further as an honest attempt to understand what happened that day.

Keep railing about conclusions based on the evidence. The report isn't so complimentary and excusing of Bush as you imagine it to be. There's a nice long bit about how Clinton's administration foiled the Millenium bombers - and it notes how Bush's administration didn't have the same focus on terrorism that Clinton's adminstration possessed. You'd do better to use this report as a starting ground for investigation and see what strings are left unravelled that you can start tugging on.

Take back your overcoat of shame - it doesn't belong to me.
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #79
87. Fancy that!
Until you bring the evidence to a legitimate court what you state is nothing but hearsay. Of course Intelligence is going to provide bank transactions,details of meetings etc. This is standard disinfo protocol...are you familiar with intelligence disinformation as a standard practice? Every false flaG OPERATION HAs its patsies. It is quite conceivable that these coke sniffing Arab brats were conspiring. Did Oswald conspire to kill Kennedy? Perhaps. But patsies are what they are...patsies. This was a once in a lifetime State run operation to convince you and me..bolo..that it is quite legitimate to over run any number of Middle eastern nations that just so happen to possess vast quantities of oil and natural gas and poppies. Fancy that!
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. bank transactions and details of meetings

are not hearsay.

Which hole do you want to be poked in?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #90
102. Mohammed Atta
Was Mohammed Atta a double agent? Lets get into detail of this man's life. Cocaine. Big wads of dough on his person. Heavy drinking. Multi-lingual including Hebrew. Shall we go into his connections at that airport in Florida where he took flying lessons? The same airport notorious as a CIA hangout? Shall we ask why all the airport's records were confiscated on Sept 12 under the direction of Jeb Bush? Was this part of the Commission's inquiry? Evidence means nothing unless its taken to court,verified and cross examined. This was not done. This was deliberately ignored by a Commission that I am assuming you have respect for. A trial first. Then a Commission. This is democratic protocol. Do you believe in this??
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. In principle yes, you're absolutley right.

But what would you get in practice? Take a look at the course of the "trial" of Slobodan Milosevic in the Hague. Is that the better sort of option?

Be thankful for small mercies. The aftermath to 9/11 was long and slow and full of holes because an awful lot of different agencies all wanted to be where the action is but by the same token it is that much more likely to be free from criminal hanky panky. Organised conspiracies only work to the extent that they stay tight.

So how and why then did the naughty 19 stay so tight? If it is likely that Atta was a double agent, at least on the odd occassion when he'd be straight and sober enough to know who the hell he was dealing with, what then glued them all together?

It helps, I suggest, to take a good look at Afghanistan to see what Al Qa'eda is really all about. How did they get their guns and tanks to fight the Russians? The Poppy is not just a part of the Afghan economy; the Poppy is the Afghan economy.

The interesting thing is then that if illicit substances were the key there must be an awful lot of previous customers who know well enough what the real deal was but....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. Deleted message
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. Is that clear enough?

:nopity:
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #104
110. :wtf:
:wtf:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #104
111. :wtf:
:wtf:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. Based on 2.5 Million pages of documents
Here we've got Ray Mcgovern and Sibel Edmonds

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/23/133...

I think this may be a pretty credible example of the pattern of exclusion and obstruction utilized in the preparation of the report.

SIBEL EDMONDS: Well, they again here are protecting certain foreign relations and certain foreign business relations. There are no mentionings there of anything that had to do with the united emirates and involvement of certain underground and semi-legit organizations through united emirates and also obtaining visas through bribery to certain state department individuals. There was no mentioning of the cell in Chicago and the activities that it brought about, and that were directly, these activities related to the 9/11 attack. As far as the money laundering is concerned, and I'm saying is, because these semi-legit organizations have not been named, and are still in operation. Again, just under the name of protecting certain foreign relations, there were no mentionings of these incidents. So again, anything that the administration wanted to protect has remained protected as you would see in this report, because there are no mentionings.

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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #89
118. This Chicago cell?
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 12:17 AM by NecessaryOnslaught
October 1, 2001
"According to ABCNEWS, the FBI and federal agents made the discovery after arresting five people across the Midwest last week. One of the suspects was arrested in the Chicago area, three in Detroit, and a fifth person in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

The FBI found materials on the suspects that indicate they may have been planning a truck bombing on the Sears Tower. Four of the five people arrested had fraudulent licenses to drive trucks carrying hazardous materials, agents discovered. The FBI and other federal agents also seized computer disks and drawings related to the Sears Tower, according to ABCNEWS."
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/100101_ns_searstower.ht...

Thursday September 20, 2001

American investigators said yesterday they had uncovered a suspected terrorist cell in Detroit, arresting three men in a raid on a house where diagrams of airports and forged identity documents were found.

The three Detroit suspects were charged with possession of false documents, misuse of visas, passports and other immigration papers, and were being questioned about their knowledge of last Tuesday's attacks.

FBI agent Robert Pertuso said that he and officers on the joint terrorism taskforce in the Michigan city found "handwritten sketches of what appeared to be a diagram of an airport flight line, to include aircraft and runways".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0%2C3604%...

October 12,2001
PLYMOUTH -- Two men whom police described as Middle Eastern were detained in the township by federal immigration authorities after being found with detailed video footage of the Sears Tower in Chicago....a sign posted on the side of the vehicle read "Moving Systems Incorporated" and included a phone number, police said.

Plymouth Police Officer David McCann reviewed the tape found inside the camera. The tape had video footage of Chicago with zoomed-in shots of the Sears Tower, according to police.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation was notified of the incident and all three subjects were transported to the Plymouth Police station.

The subjects were then processed through the National Crime Information Center and placed into detention, according to the report.

FBI Agents James Sweeney and Richard Tofani arrived at the station and proceeded to investigate both the subjects and their belongings with the assistance of Immigration and Naturalization Services.

Elmakias and Katar were eventually detained by INS and transported to a federal facility, said police. Reisler was released.

http://www.zwire.com/site/mercury_101801.html


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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #73
83. Kudos Demodewd
a shame it is.

-------
"Members of the Bush administration have cast doubt on a plan to issue a document containing evidence linking Osama Bin Laden to the recent attacks on the United States.

The idea was suggested by the American Secretary of State, Colin Powell, on Sunday.

Powell: Raised hopes of seeing hard evidence

But a matter of hours later President Bush failed to endorse it.

Washington seems to have had a swift change of heart on this important issue.

Mr Powell spoke in a television interview on Sunday of issuing a document that would tie Bin Laden to the most recent attacks."

He suggested it would be published in the near future."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1562751.stm



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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #83
114. The document with all the evidence linking al-kada
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. That's cute.

Do you publish your bank account?



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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
84. Unbelievable. Did Arlen "Magic Bullet" Spector cook this up, too?
This reeks. Just like the kind of BS the Warren Commission came up with.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #84
144. Abe, you DO realize that the WCR was written 40 years ago, right?
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 01:46 PM by MercutioATC
The Warren Commission Report and Arlen Spector seem to have become mantras for you. Yes, we get the idea that you don't believe in the "wacky caveman conspiracy". I don't think citing 40-year-old documents (which have to do with a completely different subject) is strengthening your case, though...
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #144
147. What's the matter? You can call yourself "Arlen" if you want to.
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 02:23 PM by Abe Linkman
The propaganda "report" you cite seems to have become your only means of coping with questions you can't answer. Yes, we get the idea that you don't know how a nine foot round exit was made thru a Pentagon wall, and so you made up some wild Voodoo force theory that you think people will either believe, or at least accept as being plausible.

I don't think citing a propaganda report & making up a Voodoo explanation for how a nine foot hole got made is strengthening your case
as an objective Democrat who wants to see the bush lies exposed for what they are.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. The exit hole aside, what flaws do you see in the report?
??
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. The "report" is of no use in learning what really happened on 9/11
It's only purpose appears to be for use by PR flacks, disinformation agents and other apologists for the bogus "Cavemen Did It" Conspiracy Theory. I think it was produced so that people like you could point to it instead of having to explain the unexplainable. It's worthless.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. Considering you dismissed it as "propaganda" before you even read it,
you don't carry much credibility on this particular issue.

Again, what, specifically, do you disagree with aside from the conclusions?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. I read it & turns out I was right all along. Total RW propaganda/BS.
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 08:28 PM by Abe Linkman
What makes you think anyone here cares about a "report" that's little more than a thinly disguised piece of propaganda?

Why is it that YOU have to cite a report about damages at the Pentagon that doesn't even report on the exit hole? Fear of sounding foolish with the BS Voodoo theory you've been trotting out?

That kind of stuff is what Disinfo Agents & PR flacks rely on. It has no place here on DU. You ought to be thankful that the DU rules are such that apologists for bush are allowed to come here and disrupt those of us who are here because we are interested in discussing what really happened on 9/11. It would be nice to have a day or two without having to put up with distractions from people who come here for a different reason.

Are you also a bush supporter, like "objection"? If so, why are you here? If not, then why are you trying to bolster the lies he and his Aministration have put out for three years?

More importantly, since you know damn well no one here is buying the fairy tale you're selling, what's the point of you being here?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #154
155. Seems we've covered this ground. I'm voting for Kerry (as I've stated)
...and I notice you have failed, again, to cite ONE specific issue you have with the report (aside from the exit hole, which it doesn't address anyway). C'mon...if it's "Total...B/S" there MUST be domething you disagree with...

Abe, this is called the "9/11, Military Affairs, and Terrorism" Forum. It's not the "Conspiracy Theory" Forum. That would indicate to me that it's open to ALL points of view regarding 9/11, not just those that blindly disregard everything Bush says.

I've also stated my reasons for posting here. If my posts irritate you that much, feel free to ignore them.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #155
157. How did the nine foot EXIT hole get there, merc? How? YOU tell us.
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 09:35 PM by Abe Linkman
Can YOU explain how that hole got there?

You said:

"it's open to ALL points of view regarding 9/11, not just those that blindly disregard everything Bush says."

And, you've certainly exercised YOUR right to express ALL points of view...by my reckoning, at one time or another, you've supported everything from the "Wacky Cavemen Did It" to LIHOP and even what I'd consider to be MIHOP.

Now, how did the Pentagon exit hole get there? Do you know?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #157
158. I don't think anybody has a definitive answer, only theories.
I've given you mine. You've given me yours. We disagree. Whay's the point of going back and forth about it?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. Stop ducking the question. Tell us what YOUR theory is.
You're using the same tactics that right-wingers use, and I'd hate to think you're one of them (I know you're not. I really, really know you're not one of them.).

The most plausible explanation for how the big nine foot circular exit hole was made in the Pentagon wall is that a shaped charge explosion caused it.

If you disagree with that, be a good sport and tell us what you believe caused it. If you have a plausible explanation, it would go a long way towards making you seem less like a robotic apologist for bushco's lies.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #159
160. I've given you my opinion before, but here it is again:
I believe the hole was caused by a mix of aviation fuel and solid debris moving at high speed (the same force that the ASCE engineers state caused most of the internal damage). It was enough to completely destroy concrete support columns that had been reinforced with a spiral steel shell near the point of impact. The exit hole was a mere 300 feet further into the building and occurred in a non-reinforced wall. This is the same force that destroyed a column 80 feet from the exit hole.

http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0203feat.h...

Which is a better example of "voodoo"?

1) A blast strong enough to blow through a fortified outer wall and destroy heavily reinforced columns makes a hole in an unreinforced wall 300 feet away.

2) The government conspires to have an F-16 piloted by remote control fire a missile into the Pentagon and then crash into it in conjunction with the detonation of shaped charges. No explanation is offered for the disposition of the commercial airliner that "supposedly" crashed into the Pentagon, although it's still unaccounted for.




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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #160
161. If you believe....
Edited on Thu Jul-29-04 12:56 AM by demodewd
If you believe the blast of aviation fuel and solid debris created the nine foot hole and knocked out or severely debilitated columns in its path then why is that section of the building profoundly void of smoke discoloration and evidence of fire?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #161
162. Not a blast. Mass moving at high velocity from the crash.
(the inertia caused by the crash)

Actually, there IS soot above the exit hole, from the subsequent fire. Did you LOOK at the picture?
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #162
164. re: above the exit hole
Soot above the exit hole...and that is all. Where is the soot on the walls in the immediate area of the hole? That "inertia" would have included a jet fuel concentrated fire ball. Your explanation assumes that the debris,fuel and fire assumed a nice concentric extremely powerful force.This is characteristic of a bunker buster or jet stream from shaped charges.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #164
165. Why would smoke go anyplace other than up?
Look at pictures of any house fire that was put out before the house was completely engulfed. You'll see soot above the windows, not below or on the sides.

Again, the fire came AFTER the initial damage. The initial damage to the interior and the exit hole weren't caused by a blast (fire), but a mix of tons of liquid jet fuel and debris "pushed" along by the inertia the plane lost when it struck the building.

That's the ASCE's explanation.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #160
163. Not at all plausible. No scientific support for it. It's VOODOO.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't see how you expect your credibility to be enhanced by such an obviously outrageous notion, but then again, that may not be your main concern here.

Stick with the ATC stuff, and you won't arouse as many snickers.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #163
166. You're entitled to your opinion, too.
I just don't see the need to bring shaped charges into the discussion when the ASCE has already described the force involved.

My version also addresses that pesky AAL77 and what happened to it. The only explanation I've seen you give is a link to Eastman's site where he claims that AAL77 overflew the Pentagon with it's engines "off" at 400 MPH (a physical impossibility) and landed unnoticed at Reagan (another impossibility).
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #166
167. I don't see the need to make up a BS explanation like that. Why do it?
You failed to explain how your "mixture of fuel and debris" was able to form itself into a near-perfect nine foot round "force". WHEN and WHERE was the nine foot force formed, and HOW was it formed.

If you can't answer even basic questions, then your VOODOO explanation is about as convincing as saying Osama bin Oswald had the resources to carry out the attacks of 9/11.

Then, you have the gall to try and imply that "ASCE" is the source for what caused the exit hole. LOL

No credibility, merc. You can't be serious. I don't even think you're an ATC.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #167
168. You don't HAVE to think I'm an ATC...only the FAA does
(I like my paychecks)
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RH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #157
173. how that hole got there

The same way the other two exit holes got there: A B757 hit the building.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. Nobody has to cite anything

Participation is voluntary. Some people try to be helpful.

Take it or leave it.

objection is not a Bush supporter.

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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #156
169. Tunnel vision
I, personally do not understand why either of these theories are even an issue when there are other fundamental issues that supercede this that need to be proven before this even becomes an issue in itself.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
143. UAL93 was well west of the other planes. There were 4500 planes in the air
Only three had been hijacked. If YOU were a pilot and were told that a passenger was having a heart attack by your lead flight attendant (who, unbeknownst to you, had a knife to her throat)would you respond?

No, I obviously don't know that this is what happened, but if I can come up with this "plan" so easily, couldn't somebody else?

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true grit Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. I read this article
Interesting about Cheney. The Col. predicts Cheney's demise prior to the election. Would this be enough to postpone the election? I'll keep watching. The truth is out there.....thanks
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. If the pod and refueling equipment is shown to be false, does this
new theory get tossed in the trash bin?
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Well. then would the question be
would the pod even be necessary for remote capabilities?, correct?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Here's a tip for you -- assuming you are here because you want the truth
Avoid discussions about technical points. 9/11 Web sites are full of Disinformation agents who use a variety of tactics, and one of the most common is to discount logic by attempting to discredit the validity of a technical point. Remember, "they" have instant access to experts on any subject that comes up. So, they can say anything they want to, and "back it up" by citing an "expert". You know, just like in a court case, if you have the money, you can get an expert to testify to anything.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Shush, objection! I was beginning to feel important...
:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. Good advice if you're trying to avoid the truth
Avoid discussions about technical points.

Yes, those testy technical points, also known as facts, should be avoided at all costs if they get in the way with an agenda.

I do find it amazing that those living in a reality based world use experts like engineers, scientists, to support reality, while the CT'ers usual "expert" is someone with no known credentials or peer review process.
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carlvs Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
151. And you definitly want to avoid...
anybody or any web site that uses these terms in relation to the events on 9-11:

"Missle Pods" :thumbsdown:
"Pipes" :thumbsdown:
"Explosives" :thumbsdown:
"Shaped-charges" :thumbsdown:
"Fake Cell Phone Calls" :thumbsdown:
"Wrong-sized Jet Engines" :thumbsdown:
"Controlled Demolition" :thumbsdown:
"Cavepeople" :thumbsdown:
"Disinformation Agents" :thumbsdown:

among others.

However, use of these terms is ok if the person or site in question is debunking their exsistance... :)
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. Well that's one question but not exactly
Edited on Mon Jul-26-04 08:46 PM by LARED
the one I had in mind.

IMO, the speculation that any of the jets were remotely controlled lacks any evidence.

The pods and spray nozzles do not exist on any image of flight 175 and there is no evidence that indicates the jets were flown by remote control.
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. What evidence would there be?

For the sake of the argument, what does remote control look like?

If the supposition were that hijackers flew the planes but not quite with the objective of crashing suicidally into buildings, how would that extra factor be proved?

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. All sorts
If the jets were flown by remote control, they would have been fitted with the control systems to do that. Something the pilots may have noticed.

Humans would be needed to install the remote control system. Unless the systems were installed minutes before the planes left the remote control systems would have been seen by maintenance people. Can the systems be installed in minutes. No chance. Can they be installed in a way that no one would notice. No chance.

There is no evidence that the remote control systems are even compatible with commercial airliners, meet FAA requirements and a host of other protocols and procedures used to monitor and maintain airplanes.

If a remote control system was installed someone somewhere most likely would have noticed something amiss.



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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #53
64. How are you so sure?

Is it true or is it not true that in the early nineties Lufthansa, afraid that its planes may be remotely interfered with, completely stripped American flight control computers from its entire fleet to replace them with a home grown version?

That sort of thing must be verifiable (or refutable) as a matter of fact and if so the implication is indisputable; remote control is possible with the hardware already installed.

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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. FTS module photograph

"This is a photograph of the Flight Termination System module, from their site.(5). Note it has a cylindrical shape, and is consistent with the size and shape of the object observed under the fuselage of flight 175"
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. The evidence just continues to pile up. Aspirins to bolo, merc et al.
Maybe Alka Seltzer?

merc: Do you have any evidence to the contrary, or do you now accept that the FTS module is consistent with the size and shape of the object observed under the fuselage of FL 175 - that's in every photograph EXCEPT for the one supplied by...you guessed it: BOLO (does he have Photoshop software? I dunno, but I don't have any evidence to the contrary. do you?)
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Something continues to pile up when Abe's posting.
I didn't supply the clear photograph of Flight 175's belly just before impact.

It came from the NIST study's interim report. Anyone can go and get that picture from that website today. I brought it to your attention, but I possess no ability to manipulate images available on the NIST website.

That said, this is a clear distraction away from the subject of this thread. Why can't you or DD the first (Dulce) or dd the second (demodewd) EVER stick to the subject? Why do you always feel the need to turn every thread into a hopeless mishmash of every concievable topic?

The truth cannot thrive in an atmosphere of chaotic and undisciplined talk. Why do you continue to create an atmosphere that obscures the truth, Abe?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
67. One problem with the "lookalike" theory:
Whether it be the nose of the Global Hawk or the FTS module, people cite the similar shape as "evidence" that it was some remore control device.

The Global Hawk's nose is shaped the way it is (with the bump) because engineers had to fit electronics inside and still maintain an aerodynamic shape. The FTS module is shaped the way it is because it's a modular system and, also, needs to be aerodynamic.

IF you started with an empty 757/767 and wanted to add a remote control device, why would it be necessary to add an external bump? You'd have an entire fuselage to work with - no lack of space. Actually, it'd be a really silly idea because your "lookalike" plane would no longer look like the original.

Again, no evidence to the contrary, just common sense.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #67
78. You're wrong, and I don't have any evidence to the contrary.
And, I won't argue with someone who is wrong.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. You won't argue with someone that's wrong?
By elimination, that means you only argue with people who are right.

Thanks for the endorsement, Abe.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #82
91. I have to make an exception for you. Too many unsuspecting folks ...
might be easily persuaded by some of your more insidious arguments. So, it's a pain in the neck, but somebody's gotta do it. If you don't counter BS on a site like this, some people might not realize they're being snookered by a "pro" like you.
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
55. fully autonomous flight capability
Not being a techie, I can't even begin to discuss this, but never minding the source, just wondering if this has been addressed and throwing it out here.

One of the things that seems to be brought up is the G force factor as well.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/planes_of_911_exceeded_thei...


Jim Heikkila
Saturday August 17, 2002

Two of the aircraft exceeded their software limits on 9/11.

------------------------------------------------------
As well as fully autonomous flight capability, the 767 and 757 are the ONLY COMMUTER PLANES MADE BY BOEING THAT CAN BE FLOWN VIA REMOTE CONTROL. It is a feature that is standard to all of them, all 757's and 767's can do it. The purpose for this is if there is a problem with the pilots, Norad can fly the planes to safe destinations via remote. Only in this flight mode can those craft exceed their software limits and perform to their actual physical limits because a pre existing emergency situation is assumed if this mode of flight is used.

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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Is this a real quote from CBS?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1204/pg1

quote: A confusing set of details from CBS 21 September 2001

(CBS) New radar evidence obtained by CBS News strongly suggests that the hijacked jetliner which crashed into the Pentagon hit its intended target. Top government officials have suggested that American Airlines Flight 77 was originally headed for the White House and possibly circled the Capitol building. CBS News Transportation Correspondent Bob Orr reports that's not what the recorded flight path shows. Eight minutes before the crash, at 9:30 a.m. EDT, radar tracked the plane as it closed to within 30 miles of Washington. Sources say the hijacked jet continued east at a high speed toward the city, but flew several miles south of the restricted airspace around the White House. At 9:33 the plane crossed the Capitol Beltway and took aim on its military target. But the jet, flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it's clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph. Some eyewitnesses believe the plane actually hit the ground at the base of the Pentagon first, and then skidded into the building. Investigators say that's a possibility, which if true, crash experts say may well have saved some lives. At the White House Friday, spokesman Ari Fleischer saw it a different way. "That is not the radar data that we have seen," Fleischer said, adding, "The plane was headed toward the White House." Ten days after the hijacked airliner slammed into the Pentagon, leaving 189 people dead or missing including those on the plane, and gouging a giant smoky slice out of the world's biggest office building, some 300 people were looking for clues. (CBS)
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. Link
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. There are no such software limits

except on autopilot. Ask Boeing or any actual pilot.

The idea of a calculation that the Pentagon plane pulled between five and seven g's is also laughably bogus. Where would the data come from? While they were spouting that sort of nonsense others were complaining about a cover up; no such data was published!
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objection Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. e.g.
On the 22nd of January 2002 a Boeing 757-208, TF-FIO, on Icelandair flight number 315, made an approach to Oslo airport Gardermoen. The descent and approach was made in strong tailwind. The unstabilized final approach was abandoned at low altitude, and during the go-around the aircraft entered an extreme manoeuvre with high positive and negative pitch attitudes, and the aircraft exceeded maximum negative and positive g-values.

http://www.aaib-n.org/SL%20Rapporter%202003/report%207-...
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. Ok..that
is the answer referring to the specific link I gave to the piece from the "anonymous" poster.

But then the queston goes to the original speculative premise post of this thread which is the "strange connections" of SPC and thier "more efficient Boeing 767s" The Consiracy Planet post uses the premise that the FTS tubes are a given.

My contention would be that the tubes for the FTS system may not have been necessary by utilizing some other sort of black op software, technology, etc. which could have been fitted at MacDill or Elgin for this specific operation.

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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
57. The premise of this thread is Dov Zakheim and SPC and the planes
With his ties to the White House and SPC's ties in providing high tech services that fall right in line with what it would take to pull off something like this. Is it so far out of the realm of possibility that the technolgy IS available? Without the necessity of the Pod?

"OPS BLACKSTAR is Highly Compartmented, Secret Fire-Command & Control Platform System that flies out of Holloman AFB NM./FT. Huachuca, AZ (BLACKBAG OPS). Combine BLACKSTAR (Pilotless) and Thiokol's Corps. Portal Transport Systems (illegally downloaded by Wen Ho Lee, at Los Alamos), and You can control ANY AIRCRAFT THAT IS FBW. Remember that OPS BLACKSTAR has broadcast dissemination capabilities to 100 Aircraft at one time (AWACS, ASARS, JSTARS, TENCAP, TROJAN SPIRIT, GUARDRAIL-CS, UAV's, SIGINT, TEAMMATE, TRACKWOLF, REMBASS, HUMINT, CI IMINT, MASINT, TECHINT, JTF, ARF-OR, ACE, JIC, ACT) for an effective INTELLIGENCE BOS. I have personally SEEN, OPS BLACKSTAR in operation.

I just thought you might would like to know. Tonight, on 60 minutes 2, there was a segment where the reporter went aboard one of those AWACS flying around overhead. He asked all the usual BS questions and got all the standard answers. I admit, I was so lulled by it all, I almost missed the big (I think,REALLY BIG) statement the reporter made very near the end of the segment..."The code name form their mission is "Darkstar"... See the connection? The BLACKSTAR program and an AWAC mission code named Dark star?"

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1204/pg1

Just speculative thoughts
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. Carol Valentine
I just found her site

I'm sure the rest of you have seen it

I have no comments yet, but any thoughts appreciated
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midwayer Donating Member (719 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. On an intial look
It looks like her conclusion is the Isreali's did it
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
122. Great post, Demo Dude!!!
I first heard the tanker theory at the old Peoples Investigation of 911 site. It was advanced, on the basis of photographic evidence, by a very intelligent, observant and open-minded British aviation buff who went by the name of "Ronboy" there. It's definately one of the most probable theories I've heard, much more likely than the "official version".

But the idea that what we can see under the wing of that plane is some kind of missile or bomb, also has quite a lot going for it. We may need some kind of leak or clue from someone who actually knew about this covert operation, before we know which of these two theories is correct. A combination of the two could also be right--say it was a tanker with plenty of fuel to make a spectacular explosion show on TV, with some kind of missile or bomb involved in creating the effect as well.

The evidence concerning "Flight Termination Systems" is very relevant too. This was also discussed at that smart 'ol Peoples Investigation of 911 site, I sure wish it was still around. There I met the very smart NYC accountant Jamie who first revealed mafiosio Paul Gargano of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey as a key player in the whole 9/11 deal!

But please be careful about attributin to much to Zionism or Israel.
The Bush Regime neo-cons did it, they could call on some help from their wealthy friends in Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Pakistan. But these neo-cons themselves are responsible for the disaster. It couldn't have been done without "inside" help at the top of the U.S. Whitehouse and Pentagon. In no way did Israel, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan put their heads together and come up with this "behind our backs". Balderdash!!!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-12-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
170. Dov Zakheim, former DOD Comptroller is under investigation
DoD Statement on Jack Shaw and the Iraq Telecommunications Contract

For several months there have been allegations in the press that activities of John A. Shaw, Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for International Technology Security, were under investigation by the Inspector General of the Department of Defense (DoD IG). The allegations were examined by DoD IG criminal investigators in Baghdad and a criminal investigation was never opened.

Furthermore, attempts to discredit Shaw and his report on Iraqi telecommunications contracting matters were brought to the attention of the DoD IG and were accordingly referred to the FBI.

Shaw carried out his duties in the investigation of Iraqi telecommunications matters pursuant to the authorities spelled out in the Memorandum of Understanding between the DoD IG and the Acting Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics. Shaw provided a copy of his report to the DOD IG and, at the request of the Coalition Provisional Authority, to the Iraqi National Communications and Media Commission.

Shaw is not now, nor has he ever been, under investigation by the DoD IG. Any questions concerning FBI activities should be addressed to the FBI.
http://www.dod.mil/releases/2004/nr20040810-1103.html


Winds of Change:Troubled Waters Ahead For the Neo Cons
by
Wayne Madsen

The neo-con attack on Shaw was predictable considering their previous attacks on Ambassador Joe Wilson, his wife Valerie Plame, former U.S. Central Command chief General Anthony Zinni, former counter-terrorism coordinator Richard Clarke, former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, CIA counter-terrorism agent Michael Scheuer (the "anonymous" author of Imperial Hubris who has recently been gagged by the Bush administration), fired FBI translator Sibel Edmonds (who likely discovered a penetration by Israeli and other intelligence assets using the false flag of the Turkish American Council and who also has been gagged by the Bush administration), and all those who took on the global domination cabal. But Shaw showed incredible moxie. When he decided to investigate Pentagon Inspector General Reports that firms tied to Perle and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz were benefiting from windfall profit contracts in Iraq, Shaw decided to go to Iraq himself to find out what was going on. When Shaw was denied entry into Iraq by U.S. military officers (yes, a top level official of the Defense Department was denied access to Iraq by U.S. military personnel!), he decided to sneak into the country disguised as a Halliburton contractor. Using the cover of Cheney's old company to get the goods on Cheney's friends' illegal activities was yet another masterful stroke of genius by Shaw. But it also earned him the wrath of the neo-cons. They soon leaked a story to the Los Angeles Times claiming that Shaw actually snuck into Iraq to ensure that Qualcomm (on whose board sat a friend of Shaw's) was awarded a lucrative cell network contract.

But nothing could be further from the truth. Shaw, who worked for Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush, represented the Old Guard Republican entity that in August 2003 set up shop in the Pentagon right under the noses of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Feith to investigate the neo-con cabal and their illegal contract deals. The entity, known as the International Armament and Technology Trade Directorate, was soon shut down as a result of neo-con pressure. Not to be deterred, Shaw continued his investigation of the neo-cons. Although the neo-cons told the Los Angeles Times that the FBI was investigating Shaw, the reverse was the case: the FBI was investigating the neo-cons, particularly Perle and Wolfowitz, for fraudulent activities involving Iraqi contracts. And in worse news for the neo-cons: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was giving the Inspector General's and Shaw's investigations a "wink and a nod" of approval.

The financial stakes for the Pentagon are high - the Iraqi CPA's Inspector General recently revealed that over $1 billion of Iraqi money was missing from the audit books on Iraqi contracts. For Shaw and the FBI, it was a matter of what they suspected for many years - that Perle, Wolfowitz, and their comrades were running entities that ensured favorable treatment for Israeli activities - whether they were business opportunities in a U.S.-occupied Arab country or protecting Israeli spies operating within the U.S. defense and intelligence establishments.

Shaw certainly must have recalled how, during the Reagan administration, an Israeli spy named Jonathan Pollard was able to steal massive amounts of sensitive U.S. intelligence over a long period of time and hand it over to his Israeli control officer, a dangerous and deadly agent provocateur named Rafael "Rafi" Eitan. That had disastrous effects on U.S. intelligence operations throughout the world because some of the documents were handed by the Israelis to the Soviets in return for letting more Soviet Jews emigrate to Israel.

more
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/081104_winds_ ...

Thanks lancdem and medeak
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...


seemslikeadream

3. Defense Official Probed on Contracts


Los Angeles Times
July 07, 2004
T. Christian Miller

Washington -- A senior Defense Department official conducted unauthorized investigations of Iraq reconstruction efforts and used their results to push for lucrative contracts for friends and their business clients, according to current and former Pentagon officials and documents.
John "Jack" Shaw, deputy undersecretary for international technology security, represented himself as an agent of the Pentagon's inspector general in conducting the investigations this year, sources said.

In one case, Shaw disguised himself as an employee of Halliburton Co. and gained access to a port in southern Iraq after he was denied entry by the U.S. military, the sources said.

In that investigation, Shaw found problems with operations at the port of Umm al Qasr, Pentagon sources said. In another, he criticized a competition sponsored by the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority to award cell phone licenses in Iraq.

In both cases, Shaw urged government officials to fix the alleged problems by directing multimillion-dollar contracts to companies linked to his friends, without competitive bidding, according to the Pentagon sources and documents. In the case of the port, the clients of a lobbyist friend won a no- bid contract for dredging.

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/unitedstates/de ...
Pentagon urges repeal of Iraq phone contracts


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


The Pentagon has asked the Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad to cancel three contracts for Iraqi cell phone networks worth about $500 million annually, citing fraud and the companies' links to an Iraqi-born Briton with ties to Saddam Hussein.
A June 14 memorandum from John A. Shaw, deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, says an investigation uncovered "fraud on the Ministry of Communications by Orascom, Atheer and AsiaCell."

The companies are suspected of rigging the bids for the cell phone contracts in favor of Nadhmi Auchi, who owns part of Orascom and a controlling interest in the bank BNP Paribas, which "is the French bank selected by Saddam Hussein to run the Oil for Food program."
"His role in assisting the Saddam regime, to his own immense profit, makes all three firms ineligible under Section 6.1.4 in that all the evidence strongly indicates Auchi had a direct or indirect ownership interest in all three firms at the time of signature, and his role continues today," the memorandum said.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040621-115845 ...




IndianaGreen (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-11-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message

4. However, Dov Zakheim, former DOD Comptroller is under investigation!


DOD IG is investigating Zakheim, who reported directly to Paul Wolfowitz. Apparently there is the matter of the money that was appropriated for Afghan reconstruction that got sidetracked for the invasion of Iraq before there was any Congressional authorization for doing so. There is a little known law with a funny name that was broken if the allegations against Zakheim bear fruit, the Anti-Deficiency Act. This law does have teeth!

You heard it first hear on DU's LBN!




seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-11-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #4

8. Dr. Zakheim


Dov S. Zakheim was sworn in as the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and Chief Financial Officer for the Department of Defense on May 4, 2001. Dr. Zakheim has previously served in a number of key positions in government and private business. Most recently, he was corporate vice president of System Planning Corp., a technology, research and analysis firm based in Arlington, Va. He also served as chief executive officer of SPC International Corp., a subsidiary specializing in political, military and economic consulting. During the 2000 presidential campaign, he served as a senior foreign policy advisor to then-Governor Bush.

From 1985 until March 1987, Dr. Zakheim was Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Planning and Resources in the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense (Policy). In that capacity, he played an active role in the Department's system acquisition and strategic planning processes. Dr. Zakheim held a variety of other DoD posts from 1981 to 1985. Earlier, he was employed by the National Security and International Affairs Division of the Congressional Budget Office.

Dr. Zakheim has been a participant on a number of government, corporate, non-profit and charitable boards. His government service includes terms on the United States Commission for the Preservation of America's Heritage Abroad; the Task Force on Defense Reform (1997); the first Board of Visitors of the Department of Defense Overseas Regional Schools (1998); and the Defense Science Board task force on "The Impact of DoD Acquisition Policies on the Health of the Defense Industry" (2000).

A 1970 graduate of Columbia University with a bachelor's in government, Dr. Zakheim also studied at the London School of Economics. He earned his doctorate in economics and politics at St. Antony's College, University of Oxford, where he was graduate fellow in programs of both the National Science Foundation and Columbia College, and then a research fellow. Dr. Zakheim has been an adjunct professor at the National War College, Yeshiva University, Columbia University and Trinity College, Hartford, Conn., where he was presidential scholar.
http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/zakheim_bio.html



seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-11-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #8

9. Dov Zakheim, called for "some catastrophic and catalyzing event


In a document called "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century" published by The American Enterprise's "Project for a New American Century"(1), System Planning Corporation (SPC) International executive, Dov Zakheim, called for "some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor" being necessary to foster the frame of mind needed for the American public to support a war in the Middle East that would politically and culturally reshape the region. A respected and established voice in the intelligence community, his views were eagerly accepted, and Dov went from his position at Systems Planning Corporation to become the Comptroller of the Pentagon in May 2001.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDef ...



seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-11-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #8

10. The CEO of SPC



Dr. Dov Zakheim has been nominated to serve as Under Secretary of Defense and Comptroller. He is presently the CEO of SPC International, and in the past he has served as Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Planning and Resources as well as in a variety of Defense Department positions under former President Reagan. He was a member of the Task Force on Defense Reform under then-Secretary of Defense William Cohen and in February of 2000 he was appointed to the Defense Science Board Task Force on the Impact of DoD Acquisition Policies on the Health of the Defense Industry. He has received the Department of Defense Distinguished Public Service Medal; the Bronze Palm to the DoD Distinguished Public Service Medal and the CBO Director's Award for Outstanding Service. A New York native, Dr. Zakheim is a graduate of Columbia University and has also studied at the London School of Economics. He received his doctorate degree from St. Anthony's College at Oxford University.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20010212-2.html

It was an SPC subsidiary, TRIDATA CORPORATION, that oversaw the investigation after the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in 1993.


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IndianaGreen (1000+ posts) Thu Aug-12-04 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #8

11. Yep, that's the guy!


Another of the PNAC boys. He is no longer in DOD.



seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-11-04 06:49 PM
Response to Original message

5. Plame


Fitzgerald continues to expand his case against the leakers of Plame's identity. But he may be getting more than he originally bargained for. As his investigation expanded into the bowels of the Pentagon, he was bound to discover that the treachery of the neo-cons was not merely confined to the leaking of the name of a covert CIA officer - disastrous in itself - but coupled with other activities that call into question the loyalties and financial dealings of those who swore an oath to the U.S. Constitution.

With Ashcroft's deputy, James Comey, the person who appointed Fitzgerald, finding himself increasingly frozen out of Ashcroft's inner sanctum deliberations, it is clear that the neo-cons are worried about what Fitzgerald is discovering and how far his investigation will go. Also unusual was the fact that as Fitzgerald's case began to gain steam - with George W. Bush and Dick Cheney both retaining criminal defense attorneys - FBI Director Robert Mueller suddenly transferred the lead FBI agent on the Plame case, John C. Eckenrode, a well-seasoned 29-year veteran of the bureau, to head up the FBI's Philadelphia office. An FBI spokesman in Philadelphia said that such sudden transfers, in the middle of major investigations, sometimes, just "happen."


Make no mistake about it: the violation of the 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 by the disclosure of Plame's identity and that of her non-official cover corporate umbrella organization (Brewster, Jennings & Associates) along with its official counterpart, the CIA's Nonproliferation Center - had a disastrous impact on the ability of the United States to track the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction around the world. At least one anonymous star (representing a covert U.S. agent killed while working abroad) placed on the CIA's Wall of Honor during the past year was reportedly a direct result of the disastrous disclosures from Cheney's office. The political vendettas of the neo-cons in exposing Plame's dangerous work and retaliating against Wilson's revelations about Bush's use of bogus intelligence regarding a fanciful Iraqi uranium shopping spree in Niger ensured that America's military-intelligence complex was going to seek a final accounting with the neo-cons. And a final accounting they are getting, in spades.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/081104_winds_ ...



seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-11-04 08:01 PM
Response to Original message

6. Official: Pentagon Deputy Used Unauthorized Probes to Secure Lucrative Con

July 07, 2004

By: T. Christian Miller
Los Angeles Times


Schmitz canceled the agreement two weeks after Shaw was first accused of tampering with the emergency phone network contract. Schmitz declined to comment, but in his letter canceling the arrangement, he praised Shaw for "outstanding leadership."

Shaw used the agreement to win permission to visit Iraq last fall. In an Oct. 28 letter to Army Gen. John P. Abizaid, head of the U.S. Central Command, Shaw said he wanted to "investigate those who threatened the national security of the United States through the transfer of advanced technologies to Iraq."

Specifically, Shaw said he planned to identify countries that had smuggled contraband weapons into Iraq and catalog existing conventional weapons stockpiles.

Although he did not mention it in the letter, Shaw also was interested in investigating operations at the port of Umm al Qasr.

Last summer, Shaw was visited by Richard E. Powers, a longtime friend and lobbyist. Powers was representing SSA Marine, a Seattle- based port operations company that had won a controversial limited-bid contract in the early days of the war to manage the troubled port.

more
http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=8028 ...



seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Wed Aug-11-04 08:16 PM
Response to Original message

7. Wolfowitz Approves New DTSA Under Feith


Defense Daily - September 6, 2001

Wolfowitz Approves New DTSA Under Feith
Tarbell To Retire

As expected, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz on Friday approved shifting what is now the Technology Security Directorate (TSD) out from under the Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) overseen by Pentagon acquisition chief Pete Aldridge to the control of DoD policy chief Douglas Feith, and renaming it the Defense Technology Security Administration (DTSA), according to documents and officials.

TSD Director Dave Tarbell disclosed the shift yesterday during the ComDef 2001 conference in Washington, D.C. Tarbell also disclosed plans to retire and seek a new career in industry. Lisa Bronson will replace Tarbell as the head of the new DTSA under Feith, while Jack Shaw will serve as Aldridges point man on export control issues.

Pentagon officials suggested the move in July to improve the export competitiveness of U.S. suppliers by shifting export control oversight away from DTRA, which is charged with controlling the proliferation of defense technologies, a mission in opposition to DTSAs charge (Defense Daily, July 30).

"The Director, Administration and Management in coordination with the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, and the General Counsel, DoD, will take the actions necessary to implement this decision," Wolfowitz wrote in an Aug. 31 memo authorizing the changes that was obtained by Defense Daily. "The Under Secretary for Policy shall ensure that there is appropriate coordination with the Under Secretary of Acquisition, Technology and Logistics on technology security matters. The latter has important responsibilities, especially relating to international defense industrial cooperation, that should be taken into account in the formulation and implementation of export licensing policy."

more
http://www.clw.org/atop/newswire/nw090701.html


DoD Statement on Jack Shaw and the Iraq Telecommunications Contract
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



Plane Lands In Cleveland; Bomb Feared Aboard
Reported by: 9News Staff
Web produced by: Liz Foreman
9/11/01 11:43:57 AM
This story has been removed from WCPO.com.
It was a preliminary AP story, and was factually incorrect.
http://www.wcpo.com/specials/2001/americaattacked/news_...

911 : The Cleveland Airport Mystery
http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #170
171. Dov, where did you get those funds?
seemslikeadream

`Jews brainwashed Bush? What a joke!'
Four years ago, when Zakheim was on presidential candidate George Bush's foreign policy planning team, he told Haaretz the U.S. did not need to play policeman around the globe, and that American military involvement overseas should be reserved for extreme situations, such as the prevention of genocide.

............

From the time when reports about the Bush administration's intention to go to war started to circulate, critics have charged that Jewish neoconservatives in the Pentagon were responsible for dragging the U.S. into war with Iraq, with the intention of protecting Israeli, not American, interests. Proponents of this claim hail from all parts of the political spectrum, starting with arch-conservative Pat Buchanan, and continuing with two Democrats from Capitol Hill, Congressman Jim Moran (Virginia), and Senator Friz Hollings (South Carolina).

"Pat Buchanan, in my view, is an anti-Semite," said Zakheim. "I'm sorry, but you cannot keep saying what he says, and say he's not an anti-Semite. He is an anti-Semite. I know one when I see one."

..........

Alongside such claims about corruption in Saddam Hussein's regime, Zakheim brings up the issue of terror. Given Saddam Hussein's well-known support for Palestinian suicide bombers, "why is it so hard to believe that he had ties with Al-Qaida," Zakheim wonders. "If you make the connection - Iraq, weapons of mass destruction, terrorism - then it definitely becomes a world problem," he concludes.

.........


Israelis who worked with Zakheim are full of praise for his professionalism. Though he always upheld American interests, they say, he had a warm place in his heart for Israel and he did as much as he could to help. For instance, after the start of the intifada, when it became clear that Israel's police force lacked equipment to defuse bombs, Zakheim found funds, and arranged a transfer of $28 million for automatic gear used by sappers. Zakheim is proud of his close relations with many Israelis - recently his son was married in Jerusalem, but at the time, a stepson who went on a photo-shoot in Hebron was beaten by settlers.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/441712.html


Iraq Survey Group
Donald Rumsfeld's al Qaeda

By John Stanton and Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writers


And with the ISG's intelligence fusion operation located in Washington, DC, that means Rumsfeld's hands are dirty. There is also a clear line that can be drawn between the ISG and Undersecretary for Plans and Policy Douglas Feith's Office of Special Plans/Office of Northern Gulf Affairs (speculation has been that he is a dual USA-Israeli citizen like Dov Zakheim). Feith reportedly created the disinformation about Iraqi WMD and then Rumsfeld/Cambone allegedly used torture as a tactic to elicit false confessions and exaggerated claims under extreme duress. It is a tactic that SS Commander Heinrich Himmler and Soviet KGB Chief Levrenti Beria practiced so well in Germany and the USSR, respectively. No one claims that the USA and Israel rise to the level of Nazi and Soviet torturers, but, it is too early to say.

Recent evidence offered by General Janis Karpinski, NGO's and investigative reporters, indicates that Israeli interrogators may have been active in Iraqi detention centers. But the Israeli government has stated that any Israelis in Iraq were there on their own. We are inclined to believe them to a point. The problem is that it gives rise to the specter that anti-Arab Israeli xenophobes, including members of the racist and terrorist Kach and Kahane Chai, were participating as either freelance torturers in Iraq or as part of a parallel intelligence operationseparate from Mossadbeing run out of Ariel Sharon's office. They, like their American counterparts, make for great recruits. The scary part is that neither government can control themor, perhaps, does not want to get involved.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/070904Stan ...



IndianaGreen

How Zakheim "found funds" is what is at issue here...
For instance, after the start of the intifada, when it became clear that Israel's police force lacked equipment to defuse bombs, Zakheim found funds, and arranged a transfer of $28 million for automatic gear used by sappers.

Alright, Dov, where did you get those funds? It is our money and it was appropriated for a specific purpose, where did you get it from?



seemslikeadream
This quote
In a document called "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century" published by The American Enterprise's "Project for a New American Century"(1), System Planning Corporation (SPC) International executive, Dov Zakheim, called for "some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor" being necessary to foster the frame of mind needed for the American public to support a war in the Middle East that would politically and culturally reshape the region.

in above post is incorrect

He was a signitory to a document that actually said,

"Furthermore, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to ba a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDef ...

sorry for the error


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #171
172. Mossad cold war penetration of US as deep as that of KGB.
A number of UN Security Council special ops from 1997-2000 were specifically designed to root out all old cold-war left-overs in the wake of Aldrich Ames and Bob Hanssen fiascos. In particular counter-intelligence ops centred on discredited information centred around Armand Hammer's chums and MARC RICH who wormed a presidential pardon out of Clinton at the 11th hour when he should have been strung out with the washing. Likewise intelligence about corruption of Robert Maxwell and his links to murdered ex-Whitewater ass Vince Foster, which was gagged by Thatcher's blue-eyed wonderwoman Stella Rimington, later head of UK's MI5 under John Major.



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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #172
174. Vince Foster murdered?
Freeper crap. No sane person believes that.
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #174
175. UK's Stella Rimington, MI5 head 1992-1996 and previously
Edited on Thu Aug-19-04 11:15 AM by emad aisat sana
deputy head, responsible on Thatcher's orders for all UK intelligence cover-ups re Whitewater fiasco, including Robert Maxwell's extensive business links with Vince Foster. Did such a magnificent job that PM John Major then elevated her to top MI5 post. Foster's death as much a cover up as Enron's Clifford Baxter.

Maxwell's sons Ian and Kevin took the rap for their Pop's 400 million swindle/bankruptcy of Mirror newspapers' pension fund following gagging of official UK government enquiry into the heist. Robert Maxwell's finance director LARRY TRACHTENBERG eventually cleared of criminal charges along with Kevin Maxwell in UK High Court action widely seen as whitewash.

Trachtenberg family actively involved with Dov Zakheim

Larry Trachtenberg's son David J Trachtenberg: Charting a Path for US Missile Defenses:
http://www.csis.org/burke/hd/reports/chartingmd.pd
PDASD for International Security Policy David J. Trachtenberg

http://www.afa.org/magazine/march2002/0302chart.pdf

and Stephen Trachtenberg: Clinton's Council for Foreign Relattions Member:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2807/CFRClinton.ht...

Robert C Trachtenberg:
http://www.dumpmccain.com/index_bak.html

Dov S Zakheim used to be on the board of a private US detective/investigation agency run by Larry Trachtenberg that was busted and fined over $250,000 in the US in 1989 for harassment of senior UN officials investigating Security Council intelligenece about Mossad involvement in bombing of the Pan Am Lockerbie flight that was bombed - allegedly by the Libyans in December 1988 in UK. Scottish Court sitting in the Hague sentenced Al-Megrahi to 27 years for this act of terror even there were many reports of flawed CIA intelligence into the bombing.

Latest info on Trachtenberg:

Kevin Maxwell Faces Financial Waterloo As Deadlines Loom
Independent on Sunday, The August 01, 2004

Kevin Maxwell, the son of the disgraced newspaper tycoon, Robert, faces a financial meltdown this week. The High Court will hear an application on Wednesday to wind up Meynard Freres, the finance operation run by Mr Maxwell (pictured right), Malcolm Grumbridge, a long-time associate of the Maxwell family, and LARRY TRACHTENBERG, an American-born financier who ran businesses for Robert Maxwell before his death in 1991. Both Mr Trachtenberg and Mr Maxwell were acquitted of fraud and theft offences relating to the disappearance of more than pounds 400m from the pension funds of companies in the Maxwell empire, which collapsed in late 1991. Kevin Maxwell, the son of the disgraced newspaper tycoon, Robert, faces a financial meltdown this week.

The High Court will hear an application on Wednesday to wind up Meynard Freres, the finance operation run by Mr Maxwell (pictured right), Malcolm Grumbridge, a long-time associate of the Maxwell family, and Larry Trachtenberg, an American-born financier who ran businesses for Robert Maxwell before his death in 1991. Both Mr Trachtenberg and Mr Maxwell were acquitted of fraud and theft offences relating to the disappearance of more than pounds 400m from the pension funds of companies in the Maxwell empire, which collapsed in late 1991. Mr Maxwell was declared bankrupt when he was deemed responsible for the losses, but discharged his bankruptcy three years later. Mr Maxwell then set up a telecoms company, Telemonde, which was listed on the Nasdaq market in the US. However, this company, where Mr Trachtenberg was also a director, collapsed two years ago. Since then, Mr Maxwell has been operating via Meynard Freres, a business he set up in the mid-1990s. It has been active doing financial and property deals.

It was involved a few months ago in the purchase of the business and assets of Astec Engineering Services, a Midlands business that had run into difficulty and was restructuring under a company voluntary arrangement (CVA). The CVA was supervised by a north London insolvency practitioner, David Rubin. Mr Rubin presented a winding-up petition against Meynard Freres at the High Court on 24 June because of moneys still owning under the Astec deal. A hearing is due on Wednesday and if Meynard does not pay up it is likely to be closed down. No one at Meynard returned calls when contacted about the potential winding- up. Mr Maxwell faces being declared bankrupt before this happens. Judge Michael Payne at Oxford Crown Court gave him 45 days in the middle of June to pay a debt of pounds 1bn owing to a company called Global Investment. The grace was given to Mr Maxwell to allow him to sell assets to pay the money.

This 45 days runs out tomorrow, and if Mr Maxwell has not paid, Global can take him back to court and have him declared bankrupt. Global's solicitors, Beachcroft Wansbroughs, was not able to confirm that any money had been paid. Global had previously issued a petition to wind up Maynard Freres but that petition was dismissed in May. Despite his financial problems, Mr Maxwell, 45, lives in a 40- room home, Moulsford Manor, overlooking the Thames near Oxford. The house, which is held in the name of his wife, Pandora, was put up for sale with a pounds 3m price tag last year. But after six months on the market it was withdrawn. Family money has enabled all of his six children to be educated privately and the eldest, Tilly, is studying at Oxford. Mr Maxwell is often seen dining at top London restaurants such as Locanda Locatelli and The Wolseley. He was unavailable for comment on his financial problems.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12569477&BRD= ...
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Jester_11218 Donating Member (914 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
178. It was Richard Perle
Here is more info:

http://tvnewslies.org/html/smoking_gun.html

Scroll down.
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