Chemtrails Are Real:Those Who Think They are Kooky are Paid Fakes or Useful Idiots

After over a month of not seeing chemtrails, "they" hit my part of Massachusetts in a most obvious manner yesterday, well, obvious if one was outside during the early afternoon and had the time to observe wtf was going on. Only one part of the sky was targetted by the spray planes. These WERE NOT commercial airplanes. There seemed to be up to about 5 planes doing all the dirty work. This is where fake debunkers and fake believers have it all wrong. The "debunkers" say it would take so many people for such a conspiracy to take place, thus making it unlikely that it is a true Frankenscientist conspiracy. Fake believers such as Chem11 and Deborah/Foot Soldier are astroturfing that yes something is wrong but that it is a result of all aircraft. "They" are trying to say, hey, yeah, they look funny, I was a chemmie too, but this has to do with all aircraft. I say NO FRIGGIN WAY!!!!!

So yesterday one side of the skies is being manipulated by just a few planes. They were doing the criss cross grids, they were all over the area in which the sun was located. So they started about 12-1:00 pm and within a few hours less than half the sky was that ugly white/gray fake cloud cover. These planes were not on commercial routes. They were not ascending the skies to reach some type of flight altitude. They were systematically creating fake cloud cover in order to block out the sun. Now I am not sure whether this is being done to make the areas hotter or cooler. I am not sure whether this is done to block harmful uv-b rays from hitting us. I am not so so sure about the reasons, but I am sure this is being done in order to control the weather without coming up with new energy systems that are viable for the planet and its inhabitants. This is all about the Frankensteinian science of atmospheric manipulation. This is not about mind control, population reduction, or aliens. In a nutshell, this is about radiative forcing, yet the specifics are unknown because of the secretive nature of the program{s}.

Now while debunkers have come and gone over the years, it has become apparent that the old school debunker is finished. That "chemmies" are suffering from "clouditis" just doesn't ring true when we even hear from slobs like Patrick Minnis that aircraft emissions are creating the observed artificial cloud cover. The new debunker has everything to do with the kookiness of the chemtrail forums. The new debunker has everything to do with the fake brand of believer who believes that all aircraft are involved. It is easy to say that chemtrails are kooky when indeed there appears to be this psy-op in place to portray chemtrails as kooky. Those chemtrail forums have been and will continue to be manipulated by paid disinfo cretins.

Most people are at work or are busy doing something else to notice how strange it is that a few aircraft can totally mangle up the skies. Plus, at all these chemtrail forums, there is nothing but utter bullshit with some truths sprinkled in, but such truths remain hidden due to the predominantly tinfoil nature of nearly all of the postings.

There is more than enough evidence that there is indeed a chemtrail program in place. Because it is top secret, it is quite difficult to put one's finger on what exactly all the objectives are. It is my belief that most of what we are seeing has to do with man-pigs versus nature. What part of "owning the weather" doesn't make sense? That in a nutshell is what they are up to. And since "they" wish to leap social and legal implications, chemtrail subliminals are being shoved in our faces. Since "they" wish to manipulate the atmosphere instead of fundamentally addressing the actual causes of atmospheric duress, we are flooded with fake believers and fake debunkers all over the internet. I came across one thread recently, and it looked like it was going to be a good one, one centered on the Frankensciences, yet unfortunately it devolved into much silly postings about chembusters.

All aircraft are not involved. Persistent contrails, which are rare but real, are not the same as chemtrails. Chemtrails are not good for us. If such a program was in our interests, if it was in fact necessary, then this would all be out in the open. But just look at what has become to democracy in America. It has been perverted. If we have leaders starting illegal wars, running torture camps, breaking the constitution left and right, and when these truths take years to be revealed, well, the same thing is going on with the chemtrails.Tortue? We are America, we wouldn't torture anyone, that is unamerican. Chemtrails? No, the government isn't spraying us like bugs trying to depopulate and mind control us. You only believe in chemtrails because you read about it on the loony internet. Uh, yeah, that is the tinfoil being spewed that I certainly don't believe in.

Because it is so obvious that they are real, the disinformation has taken a new turn. It is now being admitted that aircraft are creating fake nasty cloud cover. But the disinfo is that this has always been going on, but that now there are more aircraft, thus more cirrus aviaticus.

Fake believers, fake debunkers, both should eat shit and go away, along with all the Frankensciences that are the real nonsense.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.a...

Dr. McKay (photos)believes there are four ongoing projects in our atmosphere, “The first project is an effort to block the rays of the sun from hitting the earth including the ultra violet radiation that will come through without an adequate layer of ozone in the upper regions above the earth. This, it is hoped, will lower temperature on the surface of the earth and block ultra violet radiation from causing skin cancer in humans. The aerosol is probably aluminum oxide or a compound that would have similar properties.”

“The second and most secretive project is the United States Navy's, RFMP, Radio Frequency Mission Planner, military program. The RFMP is the system name given to a group of computer programs and one of the supporting, subprograms within the RFMP system is called the VTRPE computer program. VTRPE is an acronym that stands for Variable Terrain Radio Parabolic Equation, It is a computer Radio Frequency propagation program that deals with radio waves and enables the RFMP system to visually see the battlefield terrain in 3 dimensions (3-D) on a television screen. The RFMP system also depends on satellites to feed their images of the battlefield into the RFMP system to be combined with the battlefield picture painted from the ground thus producing 3-D images.”

”By providing an extremely interactive and visual (television type radar screens) environment, the Radio Frequency Mission Planner, RFMP system allows the computer operator to develop familiarity with the "Radio Frequency" environment before a battlefield war mission occurs by playing a variety of "what-if" virtual warfare scenarios on his computer screen. Since all major modes of Radio Frequency propagation are modeled in his computer, (RFMP system), special, sometimes counter- intuitive, cases can be examined in detail and exploited during a warfare battle mission.”

”The VTRPE computer program only worked accurately over water and along coastal areas but not over land masses because the system's radar waves required an atmospheric condition known as "ducting", over land, to operate accurately.”

”The government and military solved the "ducting" problem by releasing an aerosol, a mixture of barium salts into the atmosphere over America. They made an atmospheric RF duct with a base of barium aerosol from aircraft. The chemical and electrical characteristics of the mixture will cause water moisture to stay in clouds. Again, the aerosol sets up an electrical and chemical environment that supports RF ducting for the RFMP / VTRPE warfare system. Fibers with barium may support ducting. The mixture of barium salt aerosol when sprayed in a straight line will also provide a ducting path from point A to point B and will enable high frequency communications along that path, even over the curvature of the earth, in both directions. Enemy high frequency communications can be monitored easier with the straight line A to B ducting medium.”


”The third project also utilizes the mixture of barium salts in the atmosphere. Weather control is a project of the U.S. Air Force and utilizes Nikola Tesla concepts of radio frequency radiation (HAARP) against the ionosphere above the earth. Fragile life support systems in our environment are being manipulated, tested and altered by government for military advantage. Air Force documents implied, "the risks are high but the rewards are worth it." The mixture of barium salts, supporting moisture, is encouraged along the weather fronts and manipulated in a control fashion. It is believed microwave energy is also utilized in the weather control program. Weather data is also a required input to the VTRPE program of the RFMP system. Perfected weather control technology will enable a military to withhold rain, cause floods, cause drought, cause storms, withhold sunshine, damage food crops, and bring any country to its knees without firing a shot.”

”The fourth project in the atmosphere is the DARPA, Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, biological detection and decontamination programs. The program also utilizes the mixture of barium salts as the base vehicle in aerosol along with special polymer fibers in the atmosphere. They have released biological into the atmosphere in trials, testing the detection and decontamination systems.”


http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephendmckay/page7/

I believe that chemtrails are all about Frankensteinian atmospheric manipulation. I believe that Carnicom and Chemtrail Central in the early years (2000-2004) were on about the biological innoculation theory (#4) too much.

I took a look at Dr. McKay's photos. They look very similar to what I witnessed yesterday. Now why this was taking place around the area of the sun, yet wasn't taking place on the other side of the skies, to me, is a smoking gun. I saw one plane going straight up spewing out the filth. I have seen crazy trails before which have looked like bent horseshoes. The physical evidence is overwhelming. The only thing keeping this from hitting the public's consciousness is the tinfoil by association disinfo campaign.

Posted by SocraticTruths

Chemtrails Are Real:Those Who Think They are Kooky are Paid Fakes or Useful Idiots


Think about it.

I have noticed that the chemtrail debunkers at DU primarily go for the mocking tinfoil by association tactics.

One fake debunker named Jay Reynolds has been in the forefront of calling chemmies victims of clouditis. He has made claims that the "chemtrail hoax" was started by Will Thomas and Chem11, who he also claims is really some tinfoil artist named Val Valerian.

The truth is that chemtrails was a word actually coined by the USAF.

http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/spring-05.html
Go down a ways to topic#3.

"Spring 2005 - Topic #3:  Was it in 1997 that Will Thomas is credited with coining the term "chemtrails"?  Well, not to take the wind out of his sails, but it appears that the folks at the United States Air Force Academy beat him to it by quite a few years.
 
There were courses, starting in Spring 1990, presented by the USAFA Department of Chemistry, with the intriguing title of "Chemtrails".  The image below is from the title page of the Fall 1991 course policies and laboratory manual and was found in the Library of Kent State University.
 
It appears that this course was related solely to the chemistry of traditional condensation trails and that this use of Chemtrails was simply a "catchy" coined term used in the title of the courses - so don't take this too seriously!  But one has to wonder..."

I have a real low tolerance for fake debunking. Such folks are simply repeating non-stop that chemtrails are kooky. My plan is to put such disingenuos postings on ignore. If you wish to be added to my list which now has one person on it, just continue with the mocking and obfuscation.

I find it ironic that someone using the moniker "Socratictruths" would post an OP with the title

Chemtrails Are Real: Those Who Think They are Kooky are Paid Fakes or Useful Idiots

Your namesake would be rather embarrassed.

It's a good thing to question things, to use critical thinking. It is quite another to label chemtrails as crazy tinfoil like a Jay Reynolds has done all these years, yet, what do you know, here is some slob named Patrick Minnis admitting that aircraft emissions are indeed creating fake cloud cover.

I have noticed that the "debunkers" at DU never interact with the materials presented by "chemmies". I guess it is much easier to be like Rush Limbaugh and just make statements and hope they stick.

There is definitely a cruel smarmy methodology for the "debunkers" here at DU. The responses come across as too, not to, robotic and simplistic.

But yeah, that ignore button is a beautiful thing, and you are very close to being placed on my personal list.

Creating fake cloud cover is something quite different than chemtrails. So stop pretending you have something to interact with. Do you have air testing that shows chemtrail are in fact chemicals. Do you have phenomenon in the sky that is inexplicable? No you don't. Until you provide actual evidence, please keep in mind It's a good thing to question things, to use critical thinking.

You're not going to convince me of your chemtrail fantasies nor will I persuade you to give up tilling at chemtrail windmills. I was simply amused by your moniker given the subject matter.

Since I am new here, I have decided to give everyone a chance. I have lurked here the past year, so there are a bunch of you who I do anticipate banning from consciousness.

Seeing that you refuse to stay away from the robotic ridiculing, that your writing seems to come from a lame psy-op script, that you continually ignore the points made by "chemmies" not only on this thread, but on all of them, you are now officially on ignore.

that you continually ignore the points made by "chemmies" not only on this thread, but on all of them,

I almost never get involved in Chemtrail debates.

solutions for global warming (lol)

http://www.cplearning.com/SEIe.html



http://www.willthomas.net/Chemtrails/Articles/Chemtrail...




I've never seen it or a pdf of it.

The Frankenscientists are saying that pollution is the answer to the pollution. That way, they are saying that we can continue to destroy the atmosphere, that we can continue with the status quo, that all that needs to be done is have added sulfates and aluminum particles e.g. put into the skies which will radiatively force away much of the harmful uv-b rays along with off-setting much of the C02.

There is this one insidious poster named Halva who appears to be quite the paid strawman.

http://chem11.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Fight&acti...

The problem with this thread however is that it seems to be between two fakes. Chem11 is the long time "chemmie" who now declares that all aircraft are involved. Halva is the long time "chemmie" whose role has been to make ludicrous statements and cause dissension on the chemtrail forums. I believe that such people have been involved in fake debates.

You see, this Halva guy tries to make it seem that he is in contact with all these people, from Rosalind Peterson to Paul Crutzen. He has been in the forefront arguing that what we are seeing are attempts to cool the planet. The problem with that is simply that Crutzen's plan is to geoengineer in the stratosphere. Yet what we are seeing is taking place in the upper troposphere. He has also come out in the last year to debunk "global dimming" and market the pollution as possibly being good for us.

Chem11 has been on about jet fuel for the last years. I thought he was on to something, and I do think that jet fuel is a part of it. But where he makes no sense is when he says that chemtrails come from all aircraft. He made sense when he showed me proof that the USAF doesn't have the sulfur specifications that commercial planes have to abide with. But such a fact is buried at his Megasprayer website. To me it all adds up to long term chemmies like himself and Deborah astroturfing that all aircraft are involved, which is a ludicrous idea.

The other astroturfing campaign I am seeing taking place lately is that Frankenscientists have credibility. What a few years back was obviously insane- the Teller, Crutzen, Wigley type proposals- now paid hacks all over the internet are trying to make it seem that these are responsible people who really care about saving the planet. This is similar to the neocon gameplan after 9/11. Take some real problem, such as New York being attacked by planes and turn it into a fake war on terror and an illegal Iraq War. For the Frankenscientists, they wish to take global warming and ozone depletion and instead of addressing the real sources of the problem, they are saying that we can pollute our way out of this. They cite the cooling effects of the Mt. Pinatubo volcano as proof of the goodness of pollution. They cite the days after 9/11 when aircraft were grounded and things got a bit hotter as more proof that pollution is good for us.

FrankenScience hits the mainstream:
Can Dr. Evil Save The World?
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/12343892/can_dr_...

Wouldn't it be easier to hide their sinister plans if they sprayed at night?

The spraying has been seen both during the day and at night. Because of the secrecy of the program it is very difficult to understand what they are up to. Most people, all they get out of this is tinfoil by association, they are given every reason to think this is some kind of lame hoax.

Basically, night time emissions trap in the heat from the day. Night time emissions contribute more to global warming than the daytime ones. I do think they spray keeping in mind trying to make it not look so obvious. They do it in the morning before we awake, or they do it early late afternoon then early evening when they are less likely to be seen. They do it at night, I finally witnessed some of those a few months back. I could see them due to the light given off by the moon.

I saw one study which said that "good pollution" done around the time of rush hour traffic, before or after, can be more effective in creating the fake cloud cover. I have seen a study that said that ozone in the troposphere is more effective than elsewhere in attenuating, weakening the uv-b radiation.

I did a lot of chemtrail posting at Gastronamus Cafe covering a lot of this stuff, but I have been banned there and am unable to even see my posts, while the fake I linked to above was never banned there even though he has to have said more crazy things as regards to chemtrails than anyone I have ever read. I was banned from that place because I was too close to logical introspection of wtf is going on, be it the chemtrail forum fakery or with the geoengineering. As long as one bows to Rense and other tinfoil, they will be welcomed into those places.

Daytime spraying would actually cool the planet in a way because it would block out the sun's rays a bit. This is the origination of the pollution is good for us marketing strategy. The strawman part of this is that the plans to geoengineer, to off set the greenhouse gases, this was proposed to be done in the stratosphere. No matter when they spray, however, there will still be a net warming effect. And the problem with Crutzen's plan is that if you put too much sulfur into the atmosphere, what will happen if volcanos spew out too? Then we will have too much damn sulfur in the skies. Acid rain anyone?

As for this being a sinister program, I never used that word. I do not think we are being sprayed like bugs. I do not know for sure whether they are trying to cool us off or heat us up in anticipation of a blank Frankensteinian check for their atmospheric shenanigans. At some forums I have made some good points on geoengineering only to have someone come up with the lame off-topic question of why if they are trying to kill us are they spraying way above us? Well, I am not falling for the tinfoil. "Chemmies" are individuals. Many are fakes. I do not beleve in extra-terrestials or the mind control crap. I do not believe in chembusters. I do believe in civil disobedience. I definitely believe in full disclosure.

I think this is about maintaining the status quo. The chemtrails ultimately are cheaper than changing the way we live. Now while most of us would be quite willing to change our ways of life if it helped make for a cleaner atmosphere, there are these elites out there who only care about money and war.

Finally, I think that because this is covert and not legal, they do not have as much direction in their activities as many believe they do. I think it is quite possible they are trying to warm us up. I also think they may be trying to block uv-b radiation and try to cool us also, yet since Mother Nature is one tough cookie, that they cannot fool her. So these last ten years may have been all about testing, about experimenting, about slowly bringing in the psy-ops and subliminals, to attack all of us with the tinfoil by association nonsense.

I have reply #8 on ignore. He is the only one on my list so far. Any debunkers who wish to interact with me, I recommend you keep out the mocking and obfuscation, and I will do likewise.

would know how to deal with so called debunkers you think are mocking or obfuscating your search for truth. Using the ignore button would so how cheapen the discourse. IMHO.

There is a big difference between robotic, ad hominen debunking with sincere, humanistic debunking. Thus you need to be ignored.

BTW, it's ad hominem.

me to your list also. "I have a friend who did not believe in chem trails, then he did, then he did not. Wow.

Hi, I take it you don't mean to add you to my ignore list. But I was over that friend's place yesterday, and both he and the Mrs. do think something strange is going on with the skies. I told my friend what I wrote about him. He said, no, that he does believe chemtrails are real, but that he is not worried about them.

That is ok. I am not going to end a friendship because someone doesn't agree with me completely. I think it is a start that he thinks they are real. This is what is meant by that the old school debunkers are finished. Something certainly is going on. Now astroturfers are on the march trying to capture the hearts and minds of such folks on the fence. They want them to ultimately believe that chemtrails are contrails, and that they are the result of climate change interacting with increased air traffic. Yeah right. That's the ticket.

I wrote:

"I saw one study which said that "good pollution" done around the time of rush hour traffic, before or after, can be more effective in creating the fake cloud cover."

What I really meant was that a study showed that in the early evening is when all the day's pollution has finally made its way up into the skies, on second thought my memory is groggy on this one, and it would take me a while to track down the link, I'd have to go perusing those websites I used to call home when my user name was Socrates. I apologize for my crud writing with this sentence and for any confusion it may have caused.

Where are the air sampling results that confirm the existence and chemical composition of the "chemtrails"?

If you're going to make a claim about something, you need evidence to support your claim.

But you knew that.

Sid

Mocking Socratictruths by requesting he have evidence to support his claim -- are you paid to be here or just useful?

From my lurking, I have never read any sincere debunking from yourself. One of the benefits of signing up to DU is this ignore button.

Even if I or anybody else had the money to get up to a chemtrail and capture its elements, there are these pesky laws about air traffic, about where you can fly, the altitudes, when you can. Plus myself or some other "chemmie" would need the schedule of when the spraying is going to take place.

There is tons of evidence that certain aircraft emissions are creating disgusting, fake cloud cover. More and more people are aware that something is up, literally, with the skies. They might not understand it, but word has been getting around despite all of the fake believers and fake debunkers on the internet.

If I ask for evidence, will you ignore me, too?

if you're going to continue railing on about chemtrails and weather manipulation, don't you think it would be wise to first confirm that the chemtrails are, indeed, something other than contrails?

And I know you've got me on ignore, 'cause I think you're cuckoobananas. I'm posting this here for the benefit of other readers.

Sid

 

- Make7

I am not looking to get banned by saying anything bad about Skinner or anyone else at DU. I have a friend who didn't believe in chemtrails, but then he did, now he doesn't again.

Perhaps there are other categories for those who don't believe they are real. Perhaps DU is simply trying to promote the Democratic Party by keeping all controversial subjects out of the main forum. I can see his point. We are always being unfairly labelled as loony left by right wing scum. Maybe Skinner is aproaching it from this angle.

The irony is that the biggest conspiracy websites are right wing, whether it's Alex Jones, Rense, or WhatReallyHappened. I think this is kind of like the Reagan Democrat strategy, they know they can get their right wingnuts and maybe they also want to take in dumbass fake Democratics.

So maybe Skinner just doesn't know anything about chemtrails. I definitely think he shouldn't have called them "kooky". Throw them down into the dungeon, fine, but there was no need for him to make that statement if he wasn't willing to back it up. Please don't censor or ban me Skinner or Lithos or any other moderator. The intent of my postings are not to make us look loony left or tinfoil.

Elvis Costello: "My Aim is True"

But thanks to all for the responses. I appreciate it. I also realise there are a bunch of folks here who have made great chemtrail posts in the past, so if interested, my thread is your thread. Now I am off for the day.

I'm not informed about the subject, the only thing about Jet Fuel I know is that it certainly didn't bring down the towers.



The problem is that you have different kind of people.

(Fake debunkers and Fake believers)

You have people who will believe everything without checking it out or doing their own research.
Many people will simply not acknowledge that they are wrong.
Some people just want to stir things up and have a fight.


You are right most people don't have time to notice things, and if there is something than it's secret.
And without access to all the data... how can anybody establish a clear picture?





regarding biological tests on unknowing citizens, well it happened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG6GMNd-xN0 (Bio test 1956 NYC)

War Against the Weak: Eugenics and America's Campaign to Create a Master Race


The plans of Adolf Hitler and the German Nazis to create a Nordic "master race" are often looked upon as a horrific but fairly isolated effort. Less notice has historically been given to the American eugenics movement of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Although their methods were less violent, the methodology and rationale which the American eugenicists employed, as catalogued in Edwin Black's Against the Weak, were chilling nonetheless and, in fact, influential in the mindset of Hitler himself. Funded and supported by several well-known wealthy donors, including the Rockefeller and Carnegie families and Alexander Graham Bell, the eugenicists believed that the physically impaired and "feeble-minded" should be subject to forced sterilization in order to create a stronger species and incur less social spending. These "defective" humans generally ended up being poorer folks who were sometimes categorized as such after shockingly arbitrary or capricious means ! such as failing a quiz related to pop culture by not knowing where the Pierce Arrow was manufactured. The list of groups and agencies conducting eugenics research was long, from the U.S. Army and the Departments of Labor and Agriculture to organizations with names like the "American Breeders Association." Black's detailed research into the history of the American eugenics movement is admirably extensive, but it is in the association between the beliefs of some members of the American aristocracy and Hitler that the book becomes most chilling. Black goes on to trace the evolution of eugenic thinking as it evolves into what is now called genetics. And while modern thinkers have thankfully discarded the pseudo-science of eugenics, such controversial modern issues as human cloning make one wonder how our own era will be remembered a hundred years hence. --John Moe
http://topics.practical.org/details/MGJML/FJKMJ


Banking on Baghdad: Inside Iraq's 7,000-Year History of War, Profit, and C



Banking on Baghdad: Inside Iraq's 7,000-Year History of War, Profit, and Conflict
Edwin Black
ISBN: 0-471-67186-X
Hardcover
400 pages
September 2004

New York Times and international bestselling author Edwin Black uncovers Iraq’s hidden economy and the companies that profit from its upheaval
Big business and global warfare have long been fiery and symbiotic forces in Iraq. Banking on Baghdad tells the dramatic and tragic history of a land long the center of world commerce–and documents the many ways Iraq’s recent history mirrors its tumultuous past. Tracing the involvement

of Western governments and militaries, as well as oil, banking, and other corporate interests in Iraq, Black shows that today, just as yesterday, the world needs Iraq’s resources–and is always willing to fight and invade in order to acquire and protect them.

While demonstrating that Iraq itself is partially to blame for its current state of turmoil, Black does not shy away from the uncomfortable truth that war and profit have also played an equal part in creating the Iraq we know today. Just as he did in IBM and the Holocaust, Black exposes the hidden associations between leading corporations, war, and oil–such as the astonishing connections between Nazi Germany, Iraq, and the Holocaust.

He exposes the war and race-based profiteering by some of the world’s most prestigious corporations, as well as the political and economic ties between the Bush administration and the companies that gain handsomely from its foreign policy. Just as he did in War Against the Weak, Black offers a compelling blend of history and contemporary investigative journalism that spans a century and eschews easy answers for complicated questions.

Edwin Black (Washington, DC) is the award-winning New York Times bestselling author of IBM and the Holocaust, The Transfer Agreement, and War Against the Weak. His journalism has appeared in the Washington Post, The Village Voice, The Sunday Times (of London), and The Los Angeles Times.

more
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471...




IBM and the Holocaust is the stunning story of IBM's strategic alliance with Nazi Germany -- beginning in 1933 in the first weeks that Hitler came to power and continuing well into World War II. As the Third Reich embarked upon its plan of conquest and genocide, IBM and its subsidiaries helped create enabling technologies, step-by-step, from the identification and cataloging programs of the 1930s to the selections of the 1940s.
Only after Jews were identified -- a massive and complex task that Hitler wanted done immediately -- could they be targeted for efficient asset confiscation, ghettoization, deportation, enslaved labor, and, ultimately, annihilation. It was a cross-tabulation and organizational challenge so monumental, it called for a computer. Of course, in the 1930s no computer existed.

But IBM's Hollerith punch card technology did exist. Aided by the company's custom-designed and constantly updated Hollerith systems, Hitler was able to automate his persecution of the Jews. Historians have always been amazed at the speed and accuracy with which the Nazis were able to identify and locate European Jewry. Until now, the pieces of this puzzle have never been fully assembled. The fact is, IBM technology was used to organize nearly everything in Germany and then Nazi Europe, from the identification of the Jews in censuses, registrations, and ancestral tracing programs to the running of railroads and organizing of concentration camp slave labor.

IBM and its German subsidiary custom-designed complex solutions, one by one, anticipating the Reich's needs. They did not merely sell the machines and walk away. Instead, IBM leased these machines for high fees and became the sole source of the billions of punch cards Hitler needed.

IBM and the Holocaust takes you through the carefully crafted corporate collusion with the Third Reich, as well as the structured deniability of oral agreements, undated letters, and the Geneva intermediaries -- all undertaken as the newspapers blazed with accounts of persecution and destruction.

Just as compelling is the human drama of one of our century's greatest minds, IBM founder Thomas Watson, who cooperated with the Nazis for the sake of profit.

Only with IBM's technologic assistance was Hitler able to achieve the staggering numbers of the Holocaust. Edwin Black has now uncovered one of the last great mysteries of Germany's war against the Jews -- how did Hitler get the names?

But we Americans have a lot of spunk for such a young people. We will have to plant gumption seeds here and there, then through consensus, eventually, we shall overcome the madness. No way will we ever give up.

There was also the story of Frances Farmer. She had too much spunk for the fascist society she lived in, so she got the lobotomy. We need more Americans to understand the roots of fascism. Hey, here's a suggestion, forget about fake believers spouting off about chembusters, and pick up The Mass Psychology of Fascism by Wilhelm Reich. Love and peace is the answer. We need to find a way to outlaw the wars. We thought with Vietnam, that they were declawed. Now with this Iraq War nonsense, we need to get them to the Hague, impeachment needs to be on the table, Cheney, Gonzales, Bush, they need to face justice, innocent until proven guilty, but come on, it is not tinfoil to think these guys have broken many a law. Enough is enough.

CGowen posted,

"You have people who will believe everything without checking it out or doing their own research.
Many people will simply not acknowledge that they are wrong.
Some people just want to stir things up and have a fight."

This is exactly what I have been trying to describe. I'll add one more. Some people will buy into any theory, but if something contradicts it, they will not try to work it out, they will instead ignore it. That strange person I linked to a thread about above, he has been harping on chemtrails as being about cooling the planet. But when debunkers asked him to explain how this is so when Crutzen's plan is for the geoengineering to be done in the stratosphere, he had no response. He seems to have no idea about the cooling and warming nature of aerosols. Then he also comes out strong calling global dimming not true. He and other fake believers come out saying that this person Jim Phelps is a real person. If one googles Jim Phelps, they find either some oddball Tom Flocco type but for chemtrails, or they find out that Jim Phelps was a character from the show Mission Impossible. 9/11 truthers have had the same thing happen to them. Crazy crap gets circulated around the internet, call them rabbit holes, and then the real tough questions get ignored. This is tinfoil by association going on, pure and simple.

You are right about the govt. doing illegal testing on its citizens. The Tuskagee soldiers comes to mind. My advice to "chemmies" would be to find credible data on respiratory illness over the last decade. Birds falling from the sky sounds suspicious. I wouldn't put it past them to be doing some testing somewhere on some people, but I tend to go with the debunker argument that if this was quite sinister, then they would also be poisoning their own families. I do think there is the great possibility that chemtrails are endangering our healths, I just think that this would be a result of the program, not any objective. If it's an objective, then it would be to whittle off the older folks, people more susceptible to illness.

I'm gonna stick with the radiative forcing/ Frankensteinian atmospheric science theory/ weather modification way of looking at chemtrails. That makes the most sense to me, and to be blunt, it has next to no tinfoil in it.

Why don't you share them with us?

I find that the problem with insincere debunkers, I'm not saying you are one, is that whenever a new thread on chemtrails is started anywhere, the "chemmies" are asked to be investigator and judge of the topic, and to get the whole thing settled one way or the other with the one thread.

This is why it is better if insincere debunkers are ignored. There is never any flow to the discussion/ research when they are taken seriously. If one looks at the three I have decided to ignore, their writings never relate to what is being offered.

I posted tons at Gastronamus Cafe, and also at this site called Megasprayer. I even posted at Chemtrail Centrail as FUIwon'tDoWhatUTellMe. At the other two I was Socrates. If interested in where I am personally coming from you could check out my posts at those places, though I am a bit paranoid that my posts could be altered, but am not sure on that, whether it is possible. They could certainly delete my posts if they wanted to.

So yeah, if there is something specific you are curious about, just say it, please give me some time to come up with a response. Geoengineering is certainly real. There is no doubt about that.

Rent a plane and pilot, take along a local journalist, videographer and physical scientist who has published peer reviewed papers in a respectable journal on subjects related to meteorology or climate science. Collect some air samples from what you believe to be a chemtrail (I assume because you see them so often that you have ample opportunity). Have your observers sign affidavits attesting to the validity of the collected samples. Then have those samples tested by 3 independent laboratories. Post on a public website the results, along with the affidavits, an accounting of the flight and all that occurred written by your journalist and physical scientist, video of the sampling flight and scans of the results from the labs.

It's that simple to test and prove (or disprove) your assertion and could be done for very little money. I'm sure your fellow chemtrail believers will pitch in to cover expenses. Heck, at just $25 per believer you'd probably need only a thousand or so donations to cover the whole thing.

Provide just that minimal evidence that any reasoning person would accept as indicating that there's something to the chemtrail story and you'll have journalists and scientists beating a path to your door.

there's a difference between weather control and spraying of chemicals.

I think spraying of chemicals at altitude is not an effective means of delivery.

What do you mean by "effective means of delivery"? The goal appears to be to create fake cloud cover primarily in the direction of the sun. Spraying is simply a word, and when I have used it I do not mean that I think we are the target, no, the target is the skies. "Their" problem is that what goes up must come down, that is why there is so much "spraying" going on, and from mine and many others' observations, this is being done by specific aircraft. Also, since what goes up must come down, this is why Dr. Crutzenstein and others propose "spraying" to be done in the stratosphere, not where the chemtrails are being placed.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

The sun rises to the East and sets to the West. So the other day for example, it was getting deeper into the afternoon, so the sun was heading towards the West, that is where I saw the chemtrailing, and when I have witnessed the chemtrailing, it has always been around the area of the sun.



"I don't think you even realize how stupid just the one line is."

This is what too many debunkers do here. They mock and throw in ad hominens. Why couldn't you just make your point and see my response? I don't mind sincere debunkers, but too many here are writing like astroturfing robots simply belching out non-stop that every conspiracy theory is insane.

Now why would I want to interact with anyone who is posting like a robot debunker?

The poster pointed out an obvious flaw in your perception. Move a few miles in either direction and the "spray planes" are no longer in the "area of the sun". I question much of your perception. You said one of the planes was ascending vertically. I doubt it. You are describing a rocket. If the planes are at altitude how can you tell if they are commercial or not? You say that only 5 planes were involved. Did you see them go out and then return? How do you know the planes weren't following published air ways? No offense but whenever I see these threads about Chemtrails I think about the ancients who experience an eclipse and then go out and sacrifice a virgin.

my consciousness.

When I see a limited operation it is clearly targeting the sun. Now today, we got all out blitzed, so more of the region was being covered, so you ended up with vast stretches of fake cloud cover then openings then another vast stretch, etc.. I have seen worse than today. Once one witnesses chemtrails for the first time, and then learns about persistent contrails, how rare they are, how they don't spread out into enormous fake, cloud cover, then they will start to see whenever shady crap is being emitted. And yes, these planes, i saw two today shooting straight up like rockets do. These are not commercial aircraft. They are too small and going too fast and simply flying some strnge routes, creating massive fake cloud gunk. It is so obvious, and this is the truth, and as it continues, more and more people are copping on to this nonsense. Clouditis? heck no. Commercial aircraft contrails leading to massive cirrus aviaticus? Heck no. Now don't get me wrong. Airliners are polluting too, but Chemtrails are not contrails!!!!!!!

But you are on ignore.

about your observation that it is "clearly targeting the sun".

Do you believe, that as you are watching the sunset from, say, Chicago, and you see trails in "front of the sun" in Chicago, that someone standing in Honolulu - where the sun is directly overhead at that time - also sees the same trails in "front of the sun".

If they are "targeting the sun", then they have to be doing it ONLY where YOU are - because you can't be "targeting the sun" for everyone on the entire illuminated hemisphere of the earth at one time.

Again, do you understand that it can be horizon-to-horizon cloudy in Chicago, and horizon-to-horizon blue sky in New Orleans - at the same time?

How would you know? You (or any other chemtrail believer) has ever done any testing of the alleged chemtrails. But you'd rather stick your finger in your ear and hum "na na na I can't hear you" to yourself when asked what proof you have, why you haven't sought out evidence, or instructed that your beliefs about objects between you and the sun are nonsensical.

Well the sun does not "head" anywhere, your perception of the sun changes only because you are on a revolving sphere, the sun is always overhead for someone and any small amount of smoke or clouds put in one area would not effect people a few miles away.

You think you are making a ground shaking observation, but then start this observation with a childish error that quite frankly demonstrates the sad state of science education in this country. So... Why should anyone consider your views on these so call "chemtrails" when you can't seem to grasp simple grade school science?

And here is the BIG flaw in your observation. The world is big with lots of sky, you could not get enough plane up there to have any affect on the weather, Hell only an idiot would use airplanes, Want to smoke up the sky just light much of our forest on fire or try and find a way to make volcanos erupt.

My observation was not a ad hominen attack because that line WAS stupid. An ad hominen attack would be if I said your nuts because your icon is Bob Marly and you must be a pot smoker.

Well anyway you won't make that mistake again.

Oh and the only reason I know of your post is because it was posted over at the Screw Loose Change blog as perfect example of how dumb 911 Truth people are, so you are making a point even if you don't know it.

and you're immediately added to their ignore list.

Pretty soon, they'll only be posting to themself.

Sid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding#Modern_uses

(And isn't paranoid, or defensive, or insulting and dismissive of any who DARE disagree with him. No, not at all.)

Redstone

How come nobody ever has any *definitive* pictures of these evil things going on? By definitive, something that can be in no way mistaken as regular air traffic doing regular air stuff.

All I ever see are the digital equivalence of hyperventilating about THE EVIL CHEMTRAILERS!!!! with no evidence other than someone's frantic "the sky is falling...and being chem'ed" accusations.

How come nobody ever sends a plane UP to have a close-up look-see or follow these evil planes back from whence they came?

How come nobody ever has any damn solid proof about this stuff! I'm sorry - but I dont' care how sincere one sounds, without the hard evidence that SHOULD be available this is nothing more than bloviating crap.

but I'm afraid you're only headed for the OP's ignore list. Sorry.

Sid

that certain aviation emissions are creating fake cloud cover.

I have decided to put all robotic debunking on ignore. The many insincere responses to this thread are indicative of the astroturfing campaign that nothing is going on. This nothing ranges from there is nothing strange about the skies to the false idea that chemtrails are contrails.

I will be posting for those interested in discussing and researching chemtrails. I have been more than fair in responding to debunkers, but there is definitely a formula which is in place here, one that simply amounts to equating chemtrails with Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, that there is nothing to see in the skies, just move along.

So I have decided to lock all responding to disingenuous debunking and to use that time to make posts with links and info pertaining to the realities as time permits and to interact with sincere people also interested in the true nature of the Frankensteinian atmospheric sciences.

The debunking is not working anyway. This is old school Jay Reynolds/ Minnis debunking. As the program continues, as word of mouth continues, as more people start to wonder why the skies are being engineered, this will overcome those aiding the astroturfing and those who get paid to do so.

One of my relatives was just like any of you debunkers. But then one day he finally saw it happening. This is about planting seeds and overcoming the tinfoil by association coverup strategy.

Anyone out there on the fence between the chemmies and the debunkers, I say just notice what they respond to and how. Just notice how they are trying to browbeat anyone from looking into this that they run the risk of appearing kooky. I recommend to all chemmies to start putting them on ignore also. If someone comes across as a sincere debunker, then they are the ones to listen and respond to. Those are few and far between at the DU. They either get some sick pleasure in hounding chemmies or are paid to do so.

The bottom line for the persistent debunking is to derail and obfuscate. The goal is to always keep the discussion at a chemtrails 101 level. Their goals are to pepper this as tinfoil by association despite all the evidence. I ask those on the fence to simply keep your eyes open on the skies, eventually one will see what the chemmies are on about, then one just needs to come up with the motive, the why is this going on stuff.

This is why the chemtrail subject has evolved from tinfoil by association to having people like Minnis ushered in to counter the chemmies. The clouditis explanation no longer makes any sense. The debunkers here are still stuck in 1999.

One last thought, and this is a thought many over the years have expressed, why do debunkers who think this is crazy talk spend so much time on these threads. Me thinks they doth protest too much.

So that's my plan, to keep building up that ignore list of posters who have nothing to add but robotic mocking, and to make posts to the best of my abilities.

instead of "chem trails"?

Many think using the word chemtrails is a problem, that it fits in with the tinfoil by association. The problem with that is that it was the USAF which actually coined the word, not Will Thomas as some disinfo agents would like people to believe. Plus, this is not cloud seeding like the cloud seeding which is acknowledged as being true.

To me, other ways to look at it would be aerosol mitigation, radiative forcing, yes- weather modification, or my own one- Franensteinian atmospheric sciences.

and yet on the opposite horizon or area there will be nothing. Semantics has nothing to do with the point I have been trying to make about how the chemtrails appear to be for blocking out the sun, but old school 1999 debunker types, they will twist anything and everything to suit the tinfoil by association memes.

I am confident that sincere people who start to look up to the skies will eventually see that something fishy is going on. And no 1999 smarmy debunking will prevent that.

Scientific skepticism goes all the way back to attitudes about reason and knowledge that came out of the Enlightenment. Scientific skepticism in its' current form traces back a few decades with perhaps Paul Kurtz, Isaac Asimov or Martin Gardner plausibly staking claim to the modern skeptic movement. More formally, I would pick 1976 when CSICOP coalesced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSICOP#The_formation_of_CS...

On edit: I left out Marcello Truzzi and Ray Hyman in the list of people who could be considered as progenitors of the modern skeptic movement.

Hmm... For some reason DU mangled my previous message. Could the mods delete my other message with this subject line?

Scientific skepticism goes all the way back to attitudes about reason and knowledge that came out of the Enlightenment. Scientific skepticism in its' current form traces back a few decades with perhaps Paul Kurtz, Isaac Asimov or Martin Gardner plausibly staking claim to the modern skeptic movement. More formally, I would pick 1976 when CSICOP coalesced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSICOP#The_formation_of_CS...

On edit: I left out Marcello Truzzi and Ray Hyman in the list of people who could be considered as progenitors of the modern skeptic movement.
"Truzzi was associated with the beginnings of the intellectual understandings of skepticism in America, first with his association with the Resources for the Scientific Evaluation of the Paranormal, whose members included Martin Gardner, Ray Hyman, James Randi, and Marcello Truzzi, all magicians. Also during the early 1970s, Truzzi was also publishing a privately circulated newsletter called the Zetetic. In 1976, Truzzi was the co-founder, with Paul Kurtz, of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), but he would later break from Kurtz and CSICOP. In 1978, he began publishing the Zetetic Scholar, and created the Center for Scientific Anomalies Research. He was a sociologist at Eastern Michigan University in Ypsilanti.
http://www.parapsych.org/marcello_truzzi.html "

when the Jay Reynolds of the world showed up, then the chemtrail central, etc..

As to the question about renting a plane and getting samples, I already answered that previously. It was somewhat annoying to see that question repeated.

What margin of error? You stated a date, I asked why you picked that date. Do you even know what margin of error means?

www.iamtryingtobelieve.com

You are the type of person one wonders why if they think everything posted on "conspiracy theories" is crazy tinfoil, then why do they spend so much time on them. If this is all craziness, then why such persistence in mocking and obfuscating, in derailing those interested in why the skies look so fried so often.

Thus your posts have now been locked from my consciousness.

My ignore list now stands at 9. What I have noticed about the "debunkers" here is that not only do they have no explanation for why the skies changed its look so much since the late 90s, they do not even admit how strange the skies look from certain aircraft emissions. The continual mocking and off-topic obfuscations are fairly obvious attempts to stifle freedoms of speech and association on this and other subjects.

You're missing some well considered arguments. The fact of the matter is that until you (or chemtrailers in general) provide evidence of your claims, you just won't be taken seriously. And as others and myself have pointed out repeatedly, that evidence is easy and cheap to come by (assuming it exists). Take some air samples from what you believe to be chemtrails.

you're put on ignore. It's just not working out between us. mmmmkay?

I already answered that question, and now you keep repeating it. Either you don't read threads closely before posting, or you are a troll. So whatever.

you put everyone on ignore, you then have the ability to just talk to yourself. Imagine no septics or critics.

you #4 photo and #6 are the same photo.

I did notice that before but was lazy to edit it then. I just tried to, but DU says it is too late to edit. I just took those photos from google images. I tend not to put up photos because I haven't set up my own server place to keep them, and I realise that anything I put up could disappear. Sorry for the duplicate, was just looking for pics showing what I meant about the sun being the focus of the aerosol crap going on.

You do realize that at any given time, the sun illuminates half of the earth's surface?

Let's say you are standing in Chicago, and you see an airplane between you and the sun at noon.

Chicago and New Orleans are just about situated along the same line of longitude.

Do you understand that if I am standing in New Orleans at noon, I will not see the airplane that you are seeing in front of the sun in Chicago?

Whether something is "in front of the sun" depends entirely on where you happen to be looking at the sun.

That's true even for things that are very large, and very high. For example, when the MOON gets "in front of the sun" and there is a total solar eclipse, it does not block out the sun for the entire hemisphere, but only causes an eclipse along a particular viewing track. Along the middle of that track, you see a total eclipse. Along the edges, you see a partial eclipse. Beyond that, you don't see any eclipse at all.

So if you are saying that you see these trails being laid out in a pattern between you and the sun, and you believe this is being done intentionally, then you also have to believe they are being done pretty much to specifically get between your specific area and the sun.

Try this:

A regulation basketball has a circumference of 30 inches, and a diameter of a little over 9 and a half inches.

The earth has a circumference of about 25,000 miles and a diameter of about 7,900 miles.

Let's fudge a little and say that 1 inch on your basketball is about 1,000 miles on earth.

Now, let's let your airplane fly really high. Say 10 miles. That lets you fly your airplane at an altitude of 1/100 of an inch above the surface of the basketball.

Hold your basketball in a room where light shines on one side of the basketball. Now, just where are you going to fly your airplane 1/100 of an inch off of the surface of that basketball, so that you will be "in front of the sun" for any significant portion of the inhabitants of the lit side of your basketball?

Just because you see something "from horizon to horizon" means that you are talking about a three mile radius around you, assuming your eyes are at an elevation of six feet - http://www.boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm

Do any of these observations strike you as relevant to the reaction you get when people make snide remarks about your observation that the activity is in the "part of the sky where the sun is"?

Fantastic! Just fantastic.

You are one whose writings are simply robotic debunking. My observations make perfect sense to everyone who knows what I mean and for new folks who might notice the activities and see that it seems to have the objective to block out the sun. Nice Try. Now to ignoreville with the rest of them.

Right... OK, since you're defining your assertions as tautologies to be intuited by the faithful, then why even bother making them.

BTW: I have a box of saltines that perform miracles when you eat them. I'll sell them to you cheap.

Sid

Pretty please?

This is a new phenomenon. All they can find is hazy sulfate pollution before the airlines had the sulfate specifications drastically reduced. But the military can go way beyond with sulfates. I don't have the exact numbers, but this is the truth. So any old pictures might have some similar looking haze.

One theory I have is that they use the sulfur "savings" from the commercial specifications and put em into the chemtrails. Then they add in whatever else they use, be it barium, titanium, aluminum particulates, who the friggin knows because it is illegal and classified and protected by some Ponzi scheme under the heading of Geoengineering and Frankensteinian Atmospheric Science.

Just do air sampling of the contrails you think are chemtrails. If you turn up something suspicious, and the tests were done properly with sufficient oversight, then I'll gladly post the evidence that chemtrails exist at my site and make sure that the news gets repeated on at least a couple hundred hard science blogs. You'll be famous, and likely rich from book deals, speaking engagements and selling the film rights.

You can prove there has always been chemtrails/contrails, just post a photo of one from 1990

You state assertion A
I ask for physical evidence E -> A
You refuse E and demand unrelated nonphysical evidence E' from me

I'm sorry slad but that's just nonsensical. The way it works in the real world is you state A, and E -> A. I verify to my satisfaction that indeed E -> A and agree with you. It's really quite easy. But chemtrailers and truthers don't want to play by the same rules as the rest of the universe. Then you wonder why we laugh when you say A.

On edit: What's more is you insist that -> does not matter. What are we to do with such solipsism?

It seems you say chemtrails are just contrails, so if that is true then show me some of those contrails from 1990

It is incumbent on you to provide the physical evidence to back up your assertion. It is not my responsibility to disprove your assertion.

been around, nothing new?

How about you?

I found several in 30 seconds. (and I'm on dial-up)

or a link

I think it's more important to learn about contrails in general first.
The illogic of your baffling line of inquiry is somewhat akin to asserting that Homo floresiensis didn't exist prior to 2004 because you haven't seen photos of them taken before 2004.

http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/history.html
www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2006/02/02-07-06tdc/02-07...

show me

ot: Btw, the point Plato makes with his cave metaphor is that the path to apprehending reality is through ones rational mind.

we're obviously taking about since jets have been flying, stop being so obtuse

"Crewmen of an American ship watch the contrails as American
and Japanese planes fight it out above Task Force 58 in the Great
Marianas Turkey Shoot on June 19, 1944."

http://www.goodsky.homestead.com/files/gallery.html

Not that hard to find, really.

Sid

Your lines are REALLY spread out

you don't?

Sid

please show me where the contrail have spread out to cover the whole sky?

Thanks for following through on this. I have whoever you were debating on ignore, but this is the #1 psy-op going on, that chemtrails are contrails. The debunkers at this website are lame with their arguments. The best debunkers are actually some fake chemmies who have cryptically changed their tunes under the weight of the copy and paste device. They are saying all aircraft are involved. They aren't. These are military planes flying crazy routes, changing the skies from blue to fake overcast.

We got blasted yet again in Boston today. Just like with the picture above. But a lot of people are catching on. They might not know why this is happening, but they can see it, and they can also see that these aren't persistent contrails coming from commercial flights. Chemtrails are real. This will be exposed just like the torture, the illegal wars, the wiretapping. Life is no picnic, but this will be revealed, no one who knows about this should be shocked if at some point it is exposed. The fake, chemtrail debunkers' writings are simply displays of insanity, cruelness, or a paid position.

Sid

a "chemtrail" and a "contrail" but here is one of my favorite contrail photos:


Pretty crazy effect, huh?

'cause this one is just too good to let fall.

Sid