OCTer's: Question..

[truthpowertruth]

Results of Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) remote sensing data and interpretations show the distribution and intensity of thermal hot spots in the area in and around the World Trade Center on September 16 and 23, 2001. Data collected on the 16th were processed, interpreted and released to emergency response teams on the 18th of September, 2001. The September 23 data were processed, interpreted and the results released on October 12, 2001. The images of the World Trade Center site show significant thermal hot spots on Sept. 16, 2001. By Sept. 23, 2001, most of the hot spots had cooled or the fires had been put out.

The AVIRIS instrument is a National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) remote sensing instrument that measures upwelling spectral radiance in the visible through short-wavelength infrared. The instrument has 224 spectral channels (bands) with wavelengths from 0.37 to 2.5 microns (micrometers).

In response to requests from the EPA through the USGS, NASA flew AVIRIS on a De Havilland Twin Otter over lower Manhattan at mid-day on September 16 and 23, 2001. For these deployments, the Twin Otter was flown at altitudes of 6,500 and 12,500 feet. The spectral data for the maps shown here were measured at 6,500 feet and have a spatial resolution (pixel spacing) of approximately 6 feet (2 meters).

AVIRIS records the near-infrared signature of heat remotely. The accompanying maps are false color images that show the core affected area around the World Trade Center. Initial analysis of these data revealed a number of thermal hot spots on September 16 in the region where the buildings collapsed 5 days earlier. Analysis of the data indicates temperatures greater than 800oF. Over 3 dozen hot spots appear in the core zone. By September 23, only 4, or possibly 5, hot spots are apparent, with temperatures cooler than those on September 16 (Thermal Figure 1).



http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html



Question:

Where did the energy come from to create these hot spots that lasted days after the collapse?

[truthpowertruth]

1. I'm confused of your position guys.

Please clarify. It would be much appreciated. Thank you.

Where did the energy come from to create these hot spots that lasted days after the collapse?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

2. If the NIST Engineer John Gross fumbles over them, what would you expect here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x142441

[Bolo Boffin]

3. John Gross does no such thing. n/t

[truthpowertruth]

4. Please answer the question.

It would be appreciated.

[Bolo Boffin]

6. The question has been answered before now.

The question is answered below.

Now get yourself back to that other thread and answer mine. Quick like bunnies!

[truthpowertruth]

9. Nah. It's pointless.

It's an argument of semantics.

Let's argue substance here. It's much more productive.

[Bolo Boffin]

29. Words mean things, especially when we're talking about...

...imflammatory statements that are not representative of the truth.

"Pools of molten steel" is two steps away from reality. There were no pools, there's no credible evidence of molten steel.

That's not semantics. That's reality.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. In your opinion he doesn't. The viewers will be able to decide for themselves. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

5. This thread was obviously started to circumvent a question...

...in the thread Ommmmm so helpfully linked to.

Just so that's on the record.

Now. Thermal hot spots in the Pile. Where did the energy come from? Two 110-story office buildings collapsed there (plus one 47-story office building). The buildings all had fires going when they finally collapsed. The energy released in collapse was enough to grind much of the building's contents into fine particulate matter and then pack them tightly together. The fires continued to burn, thanks to an abundance of highly flammable material now packed densely together under the insulating cover of the Pile.

These fires burned for weeks. There was plenty of fuel, plenty of oxygen. The temperatures reached by these fires were certainly enough to heat steel into the orange-hot range, and melt aluminum.

[truthpowertruth]

7. I need evidence for this statement:

"The energy released in collapse was enough to grind much of the building's contents into fine particulate matter and then pack them tightly together. The fires continued to burn, thanks to an abundance of highly flammable material now packed densely together under the insulating cover of the Pile."

Where did you get this information and how was it proven?

[The Lone Groover]

8. Now that's interesting...

The energy released in collapse was enough to grind much of the building's contents into fine particulate matter

Where did the energy to come from that created all that dust from the first instant of collapse - it's there from the first second.

Looks like the building is being blown up, right from the start.

[jberryhill]

38. So? Suppose it was blown up.

Show me a controlled demolition that produces hot spots for weeks.

What bearing do the hot spots have on CD v. non-CD?

[SidDithers]

10. Underground fires can burn for weeks...

if there is sufficient fuel and oxygen present.

Do you think there were no fires in the pile?

Sid

[truthpowertruth]

12. What's this?

That dosen't look like fire.

[SidDithers]

14. Hahahahahah...

that picture has been described as molten steel by CTers. Please tell me that you're going to do the same. Please. Pretty please.

Sid

[truthpowertruth]

15. Umm, no, I'm asking you is that fire?

Because you said that those hot spots are attributed to fire. Wouldn't the object shown in the picture also show up as a hot spot in the thermal map?

[SidDithers]

16. Probably not...

because it is too small compared to the scale of the thermal image map that you posted.

Sid

[truthpowertruth]

17. Yea, it's that simple.

You just make it up as you go along.

[SidDithers]

18. Perhaps you can enlighten us...

as to why you think this object is so important.

Sid

[wildbilln864]

20. you know!

you've been involved with this subject before. The question I have is why would molten metals be present weeks after the collapses? One day we may get a real answer. :shrug:

[SidDithers]

22. I do know, and I have discussed this picture before...

but the OP seems to have a point to make. I'm just not sure what it is.

Sid

[SidDithers]

24. Taken directly from the OP...

"The spectral data for the maps shown here were measured at 6,500 feet and have a spatial resolution (pixel spacing) of approximately 6 feet (2 meters)."

So maybe you're right, that object may indeed appear on the thermal map as a single pixel. Which one is it?

Sid

[MervinFerd]

11. Answer: Broken pieces of Cold Fusion Reactors scattered in the debris.

Stupid question deserve stupid answers.

[jberryhill]

19. I don't know for sure. Where do you think it came from?

All of the cars in the parking garage were electric, I suppose, so there wouldn't be any volatile fuel around.... Hmmmm... beats me.

If I don't know an answer to a question, then 9/11 was an inside job, right?

We spent about three weeks on the hot spots, including that very picture, last month, btw.

Yes, I understand the CT party line is that thermite burns for weeks, and nothing else is capable of doing so.

I also understand that ancient man was not able to work metal in forges powered by charcoal or wood. It's an astounding corpus of work. I commend those threads heartily.

[wildbilln864]

21. volatile fuel around!?

not the kind to raise the temperatures to 2700 degrees! :eyes:

[SidDithers]

23. 2700 degrees?...

out of which orifice did you pull that number?

And no units, typical of truther science.

Sid

[wildbilln864]

25. farenheit! Didn't think I had to spell everything out for you.

No wonder you're an OTCer.
But ok, I was 250 degrees off! Still, kerosene would lack about 900 degrees.
Farenheit! :eyes:
link

snip/
"Most steel has other metals added to tune its properties, like strength, corrosion resistance, or ease of fabrication. Steel is just the element iron that has been processed to control the amount of carbon. Iron, out of the ground, melts at around 1510 degrees C (2750°F). Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F)."

[SidDithers]

26. The OP only describes temps above 800F...

so I ask again, why do you think temps in the pile were 2500F.

And yes, in science, units are important. Leaving them out is indicative of a lack of understanding.

Sid

[wildbilln864]

27. rediculous!

more like a lack of proofreading maybe. I notice them left out all the time in various place by lots of people. It sure doesn't prove a lack of understanding. That's your opinion. I have my own.
I agree units are important though! :hi:

[SidDithers]

28. Fine, apologies for making so much of your oversight...

back to the question. Why do you think temps in the pile were 2500F on Sept 16, when the OP only states temps above 800F.

Sid

[wildbilln864]

30. I am going by the accounts....

of molten metals weeks after. Also I've seen molten steel flowing from the side of one tower before it collapsed. I do not believe it was molten aluminum either as I know that molten aluminum looks silvery. Similar to molten mercury. The material flowing from out was bright yellow to white hot.
Notice 5 seconds into the video the color of the flames. I think this indicates they're cooler. Not able to melt the steel and probably not hot enough to weaken it. And certainly they didn't weaken all the massive core columbs below the damaged areas!

Watch these three short videos please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbaiuK3M3U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw8XMXL5d5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-ekc-nSQ_A

[jberryhill]

33. Could you just tell me what you know in 10 words or less

About what happens when molten aluminum comes into contact with steel.

With the huge - and I mean huge - backup battery banks that were in the Fuji computer installation at the 80th floor, among other battery banks used for industrial power control systems, I would also expect a fat lot of molten lead.

We use a lot of different metals to support our technology.

What I gather from these repeated discussions is that a lot of people don't get what can go on when you mix different kinds of metals of various melting points.

Steel DISSOLVES in liquid aluminum. And it doesn't need to be anywhere near 2700 deg F to do so.

The melting point of Sodium Chloride - table salt - is damn high. I can put table salt into liquid solution at room temperature with water.

If you are going to tell me there was molten aluminum around, then you are going to have to explain to me what YOU think that molten aluminum can do to steel.

[wildbilln864]

36. What is this nonsence?

"The melting point of Sodium Chloride - table salt - is damn high. I can put table salt into liquid solution at room temperature with water."

That's not melting that's a chemical characteristic of salt. It is soluble in water. Duh!
Steel is not!

I don't think that any molten aluminum did anything to any steel!

"If you are going to tell me there was molten aluminum around, then you are going to have to explain to me what YOU think that molten aluminum can do to steel."

If you are going to tell me that steel dissolves in liquid aluminum the YOU should give proof.
Just sayin! :eyes:



on edit:
And you can post all the representative cigarette BS you want but it still dioesn't explain three steel framed skyscrapers completely collapsing from kerosene fires!

[jberryhill]

37. Here's your proof

http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/furnace2/melting.html

Aluminum dissolves iron. Steel is more soluble than cast iron. However, chromium steels are the most resistant to liquid aluminum¹s corrosive action. The type of alloy melted also has an effect on molten aluminum¹s attack on steel with zinc containing alloys being the most corrosive.

Willbill, since I use my real name, you might look up my doctoral thesis on growth of crystalline materials from metal solutions. If you are going to make assertions about the behavior of molten metals, then at least purchase a clue.

I don't think that any molten aluminum did anything to any steel!

You didn't think that?

Okay, what do you think of this:



What does that diagram tell you about what you think about Iron and Aluminum in molten equilibrium?

I've asked you before, and you don't say anything.

Now previously you have posted things to the effect that, to your knowledge, "only thermite" could have done X, Y, or Z. The bottom line is that you know jack about metallurgy.

It is particularly apt that when confronted with actual FACTS about molten metals in your learned discussion of molten metals, you should ask "what is this nonsense?"

Priceless.

[jberryhill]

35. Units ARE important

And the tip of a lit cigarette is hotter than the hot spots in that image.

If you can't figure out where something hot enough to burn like a cigarette might have been in the towers, then I can't help you.

Roll a joint, light it, inhale - boom, you have something over 1000 deg F inches from your nose.

[jberryhill]

32. Oh, really?

Tell me what you know about the power transformers beneath the WTC?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2674646408572574875

They are filled with volatiles, just like the fuel tanks of the vehicles in the parking garages.

Look up the word "tuyere" in Wikipedia, and consider what you had there in the WTC bathtub. You had a pit with burning material in it, and you had tubes supplying oxygen (sewers, subways, utility tunnels of various kinds). You had a disorganized pile of debris with various chimneys formed therein.

I would also like you to study the Al-Fe phase diagram, and then have you tell me what happens when molten aluminum spends it time hanging around with steel.

[LARED]

31. Answer

Where did the energy come from to create these hot spots that lasted days after the collapse?

Heat of combustion releases energy.

Next?

[jberryhill]

34. Only 800 F? Geez, you can do better with a cigarette

Here are representative temperatures of the tip of a lit cigarette:


http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae1.cfm
Temperature without drawing:
Side of the lit portion: 400 deg C (or 752 deg F)
Middle of the lit portion: 580 deg C (or 1112 deg F)

Temperature during drawing:
Middle of the lit portion: 700 deg C (or 1292 deg F)

You can get over 1200 deg F with a carbon fueled smoldering, provided that you have an air draft.

Were there air drafts in the pile? I would think there certainly would be. The buildings had fires in them to start with, and then collapsed into disorganized piles into a "bathtub" which had subway tunnels, sewers, and other shafts feeding into it. The fires would start a thermal draft basically turning localized spots with the right conditions into furnaces.

Check out how a chimney works sometime.

This is a description of the apparatus our ancestors used to forge iron:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery

A bloomery consists of a pit or chimney with heat-resistant walls made of earth, clay, or stone. Near the bottom, one or more clay pipes enter through the side walls. These pipes, called tuyères allow air to enter the furnace, either by natural draft, or forced with a bellows.

Hmmm... an earthen pit with fuel in it.... pipes entering from the side walls.... allowing in air by natural draft.... Now, where oh where would one find something like that in lower Manhattan after 9/11?

Gosh, you've just got me flummoxed as to how anything could get as hot as the tip of a cigarette at the WTC site.

Musta been too many dudes smoking down there.

[jberryhill]

39. Aside from other things mentioned....

http://research.unc.edu/endeavors/win2005/9_11.php


In addition to the 2,749 people killed at the World Trade Center (WTC) on September 11, how many more deaths and disabilities will result from the toxic pollution released in the city? Books have been written to add up all the sources and amounts of pollutants, including asbestos, silica, lead, volatile organic compounds, polychlorinated biphenyls, dioxins, and mercury.

Scientists from Carolina and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have recently added a piece to the puzzle by finding a way to measure the levels of chemical compounds — polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) — generated by the combustion of fuels and other organic matter. PAHs were created by the WTC explosions involving about 91,000 liters of jet fuel; 490,000 liters of transformer oil; 380,000 liters of heating and diesel oil; and 100,000 tons of organic debris

Now do you dispute this or not?