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Daveparts Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 07:21 AM
Original message
The Mysterious Case of Flight 77






When I was a kid about twelve we lived in a house outside of Chicago built in 1929 the original owners never moved in because of the stock market crash. My father a WW2 navy flyer loved to work with concrete, everywhere we lived it was garages or driveways but in this case dad wanted to add a new porch over the old one. In order for the new concrete to adhere to the old concrete we had to rough it up, enter the jackhammer. I was a kid and I thought using a jackhammer would be cool but what I discovered was it was hard work as my father explained concrete never stops setting up and this concrete was forty years old and they say the concrete on the Roman aqueducts is almost as hard as granite.

My dad had used his GI bill to go to college after the war and become an engineer but flying was always his first love. We never missed air shows with vintage world war two aircraft and as I climbed through these planes I marveled at how thin the skin was and how lightly constructed they were, dad explained they were built like an egg. The only thing they were meant to slice through is the air and he continued that once the structure was damaged it would crumble especially the newer jet aircraft.

Flight 77 is the most important flight on September 11th, the aircraft that hit the world trade center towers grabbed the lions share of headlines and films but they were civilian targets. But to hit the Pentagon made September 11th a military attack. What were they (the terrorists) thinking? Why the Pentagon? Why not the Capital or the White House? Ask yourself if you were a terrorist what do you gain by attacking the Pentagon? Do you inhibit America’s military power? Do you damage the command structure? To me the Pentagon was pointless a field full of more notable famous targets yet to go out of their way to hit the pentagon is troubling.

Now lets put the shoe on the other foot, by attacking a US military facility it instantly becomes deserving of a full scale US military response, and who wanted that? And despite evidence to the contrary who was blamed? Then National Security Advisor Rice explained, the next time it could be a nuclear mushroom cloud so who must be attacked?
They were instantly certain of Saddam’s involvement yet had no knowledge of any possible contingencies where an aircraft could be used as a missile. Isn’t that what the President said? That no one could have expected that, except maybe the five simulations run by the NSA, NORAD, and the CIA and when did they run these simulations? Why September 11th of course. The Romans had a maxim “Who gains from this?” So by hitting the Pentagon who gained from this?

Flight 77 left Washington with 64 souls on board headed for Los Angeles including conservative columnist Barbara Olson who managed some how to make two phone calls from the doomed aircraft in the first call to her husband solicitor general Ted Olson she advised “They were hearded into the back of the plane by armed highjackers” not Arab highjackers just high jackers. The only weapons she mentioned were knives and cardboard box cutters. She felt nobody was in charge and asked her husband to tell the pilot what to do.” Ok, in stressful situations we don’t all think clearly, what could her husband have possibly suggested? So, there are five high jackers on board and two are supposedly flying the plane, what are the other three doing while Mrs. Olson is making phone calls? Wouldn’t you expect their job assignment might have something to do with watching the passengers?

But as Mr. Olson Continues, “She had trouble getting through, because she wasn’t using her cell phone – she was using the phone in the passengers’ seats,” said Mr. Olson. “I guess she didn’t have her purse, because she was calling collect, and she was trying to get through to the Department of Justice, which is never very easy.” … “She wanted to know ‘What can I tell the pilot? What can I do? How can I stop this?’” She was calling collect? The phones in question have an activation fee you must swipe a credit card to use them no credit card no phone call and even if she used someone else’s credit card why would she call collect? Twice? And who did she expect to accept collect calls at the Justice Department?

So, Mr. Olson seeing his wife’s airplane hit the side of the Pentagon does what any one would have done in a moment of personal crisis he calls CNN. A seasoned professional vetted by the National Security council should know even when strickened by grief that he needs clearance to release this kind information to the public. So what does the government say? Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson at the memorial service then said Barbara Olson's call, made "in the midst of terrible danger and turmoil swirling around her," was a "clarion call that awakened our nation's leaders to the true nature of the events of Sept. 11." So, it wasn’t a frantic woman in fear for her life asking for assistance?

Ok what do the high jackers have to say in their own defense, Hani Hanjour alleged by the FBI as being the pilot had neither a ticket nor is he listed on the manifest as a passenger, so how did the FBI know he was on the plane let alone the pilot. Hanjour had flight training with poor marks and was turned down to rent a Cessna due to poor performance. Majed Moqed carried A “Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Student Identity Card” was found in the rubble at the Pentagon with Moqed’s name on it. Forensic examination indicated that it may have been fraudulent. So we have no idea who this man was the plane disintegrates two twelve thousand pound titanium engines melt but a plastic ID card survives to the point where they can question it’s authenticity?

Salem Alhazmi, The real Salem Al-Hazmi, however, is alive and indignant in Saudi Arabia, and not one of the people who perished in the American Airlines flight that crashed on the Pentagon. He claims his passport was stolen three years before 9-11 so, who was the Salem Alhazmi on flight 77 that day? Khalid Almihdhar Officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said they were exploring several possibilities. One was that al-Midhar never entered the country and his name was simply used as an alias by one of the hijackers who died. Another possibility was that he allowed his name to be used on the flight by another hijacker, so that U.S. officials might assume he died, giving him time to escape the country. A third was that he did in fact die in the crash as a hijacker.
We have a winner there is almost a 30% possibility he was on that plane oh except again he is not listed on the manifest as a passenger. But the FBI is certain to a 1 in 3 probability that it was him all right. Now Nawaf Alhazmi the FBI seems pretty certain about him since he lived in a boarding house with and FBI informant. Five highjackers and we have no idea for certain who three of them are. The pilot with the worst flying credentials carries out the most difficult flight maneuver.

The two aircraft that hit the trade centers struck them head on, towers constructed of steel and concrete and glass these aircraft left their patterns behind on the damaged towers like a ghost yet flight 77 hit the pentagon at an angle boring through six reinforced concrete walls concrete that had been curing for forty years leaving a perfectly round hole. Shouldn’t the hole have been an ellipse? A hollow aluminum tube hitting reinforced concrete at four hundred knots hits with enough force to pierce 24inches of hardened concrete yet the engines weighing 6 tons each don’t leave any marks on the building?
Hypothetically how hard would you have to throw an empty beer can to pierce a concrete wall?

CNN on their web site posted the names of the passengers and crew of flight 77 all 64 of them, no wait they listed only 56 so I counted again and then again. No Arabs are listed did they leave them out on purpose? Out of sensitivity? Five hijackers so 5 plus 56 equals 61 Huh? No wonder the airlines are in such financial trouble you have five hijackers on the plane without tickets not listed on the manifest, the FBI knows who they are but American Airlines doesn’t then you’ve got four more mystery people counted but not named Odd huh? The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology said they were able to identify all the bodies save for the toddler Dana Falkenberg the AFIP came up with 58 bodies and as yet not one Arab is listed on that flight, how would a pathologist know a hijackers DNA from a passengers? I’m not real good at math but some things not right here.

But Barbara Olson said hijackers the FBI said Arab hijackers and they admit to being wrong about the majority of those. I won’t get into the theories about different aircraft there are too many to prove anything either way except to say NORAD admits to one aircraft being used in their simulations of September 11 the ones Condolesa Rice and George Bush never heard of but the NSA and CIA had. The truth about flight 77 is the truth is full of lies and if full of lies cannot be the truth.
Flight 77 was the most important flight on September 11th “Who gains from this?”
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ThePentaCon Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. It wasn't Flight 77 and it didn't hit the building
The majority of the witnesses we spoke with did not describe it as or said it looked like an American Airlines.

It was a military plane and it flew over the building.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The PentaCon movie you are plugging here is crap.
A majority of actual witnesses saw an American Airlines jet.

The Doubletree video alone proves that no plane flew over the Pentagon. More video exists.

Flight 77 can be tracked on the existing radar information from takeoff to crashing. The remains of Flight 77's passengers were recovered from the crash site.

Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.
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ThePentaCon Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Wrong.
A majority of actual witnesses saw an American Airlines jet.

Wrong. A majority saw 'a plane'. We are not refuting that, because there was 'a plane'. There are less than 30 published eyewitness accounts that explicitly state they saw an American Airlines impact the building. Most of these accounts are problematic. A good portion of these witnesses also have conflicts of interest and statistical improbablities working against them.


The Doubletree video alone proves that no plane flew over the Pentagon. More video exists.

Wrong. The Doubletree Video does not even prove the existence of a plane at all. The Doubltree video also has a tree blocking the flyover path. This tree has not been proven to exist on 9/11 or before. The Doubletree video also has very strange anomalies that cast doubt on it's authenticity.

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_Truth/index.php?showtopic=3095

Flight 77 can be tracked on the existing radar information from takeoff to crashing. The remains of Flight 77's passengers were recovered from the crash site.

Wrong again. The FDR analysis by Pilotsfor911truth.org of the csv/raw data show a plane too high to hit the light poles and the plane on the North side of the Navy Annex and Citgo. making it impossible to impact the 5 light poles and the building. Secondly, Flytecomm shows "Flight 77" near Illinois @ 9:43 am, well after the alleged impact.

Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

Wrong. A military plane flew OVER the Pentagon.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You are wrong.
A majority of witnesses saw an large jet consistent with an American Aircraft jet. Many of them identified the AA jet. No one, not a single one, not even the ones you interviewed, saw the plane fly over the Pentagon.

The tree in the Doubletree video doesn't block the flyover path at all. It's in front of a portion of it. But the plane should have been visible in the Doubletree video if it flew over the Pentagon. It wasn't. It didn't.

And other videos exist.

Flight 77 most certainly can be tracking in the extant recordings of primary radar, from takeoff to crashing. You have completely made a mess of the FDR data, as has been pointed out to you before.

The remains of Flight 77's passengers most certainly were recovered at the Pentagon.

Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

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ThePentaCon Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Missed this gem.
A majority of witnesses saw an large jet consistent with an American Aircraft jet. Many of them identified the AA jet. No one, not a single one, not even the ones you interviewed, saw the plane fly over the Pentagon.

Just saying things does not make them true. How do you know the ones we interviewed didn't see it fly over. Did you speak with them? Did they tell you the truth about what they saw. What about the witnesses Ms. Gallop interviewed in 2002, that "saw the plane fly over". Did you know about that. No you didn't. There are a lot of things you don't know. But what we do know, is that the plane was on the North side of the gas station and "pulled up" over the do not enter sign...


The tree in the Doubletree video doesn't block the flyover path at all. It's in front of a portion of it. But the plane should have been visible in the Doubletree video if it flew over the Pentagon. It wasn't. It didn't.

haha...ok. Whatever you say. Of course you would believe anything. You accept a video given to you 5 yrs later. I do see somehing fly over the building. Look closer. Unless the trucks on that hgihway are moving at 500 mph. So the questions remain. Can you see a plane in the DT video. NO. Can you see one "fly over". NO. Can we say the video is untampered with and does not show any anomalies? NO, we can't.

And other videos exist.

...that don't show a plane or impact.

Flight 77 most certainly can be tracking in the extant recordings of primary radar, from takeoff to crashing. You have completely made a mess of the FDR data, as has been pointed out to you before.

I've made a mess? Excuse me? Who are you? And what are YOUR qualifications.? All you've done is made vague declarations. Do you even know what you're talking about. Because it sure sounds like you don't. Please be specific how I "completely made a mess of the FDR data". Please point out who "pointed this out to me before". And show me EXACTLY where the FDR shows the tracking of 77 matching the primary radar.

The remains of Flight 77's passengers most certainly were recovered at the Pentagon.

Right names on a paper. Family members who recieve luggage tags and wedding rings. Real convincing.

Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

Right everyone, some lady on DU has made it abundantly clear-Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. We can clock out and go home now.
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ThePentaCon Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Are you always this nasty?
The PentaCon movie you are plugging here is crap.

Do you always lead with your emotions?

Just curious.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I am not the issue here. Your crappy movie is.
Are you guys EVER going to release it?
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ThePentaCon Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes. Soon.
Yes. Soon.

Do you have an explanation for the plane being on the North side of the gas station and still being able to hit the light poles and the building as outlined by the ASCE?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. First it was the end of 2006, then it was the end of January.
The plane wasn't on the North side of the gas station. You have mangled the FDR data and confused your "witnesses".

What is the delay in releasing your movie?
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ThePentaCon Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Wrong again.
The plane was on the North side.

Our witnesses are adamant about this. And they are VERY reliable witnesses.

Our witnesses have nothing to do with the FDR.

You and the "skeptics" are the only ones who have mangled anything. The facts are laid out for you. You simply choose to misrepresent them.

These are two seperate pieces of evidence, that are not related, but do contain similar parallels.

There is no release date.

You will see it when you see it.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. How does it feel to have your movie completely debunked before you even release it?
Aren't you the guys that use the FDR information recovered from the Pentagon to prove that the plane didn't hit there?

I mean, if you think it was planted there, or even if you think that the government just released it, claiming that the FDR was recovered there -- granting all that, you are saying that the government faked information to prove that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon when in fact it proves the exact opposite. How do you manage to believe that?

And we'll see about your "witnesses". You can make all the claims you want to about them as long as the film remains unreleased. Will you be releasing a full account of your interaction with these witnesses? Will we be able to see the videotapes of their interviews unaltered? If you talked with them beforehand, will we get complete and reliable accounts of these interactions?

And finally, here you sit, typing out how you have all of this unassailable evidence of government complicity, but instead of releasing it fully and to the proper authorities, you are making a film and designing logos for your T-shirts. That makes you complicit in the coverup of the governmental conspiracy, dude, for the worst of reasons - money and fame. You should be ashamed of yourself. Luckily, you have no such evidence and so you aren't actually complicit in a non-existent conspiracy, but really -- how can you sleep, knowing what you know and not releasing it fully to the public?
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ThePentaCon Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Profit is not the objective
We were forced to go this route. And at the same time we know how viral the information will go doing it this way.

No t-shirts.
No mugs.
No hats.

Both versions will be available online FIRST...for FREE.

People have also requested that it go on DVD, due to slower connections and those wanting to sit down and actually understand and enjoy this sweet victory. Sorry to burst your bubble.

We are setting up an Elisha Gallop Fund on the website, so please feel free to donate.

And Ms. Gallop, is going to have a very active role in Citizen Investigation Team's film and the promotion of the evidence contained within it.

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Big Pappa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. If its
that damn important then why not release it for the world to see. If your movie is the smoking gun you are doing the world a disservice by not releasing it.
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ThePentaCon Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. No sorry.
We are doing what we feel is right.

The world didn't go out to VA and get detained by Pentagon police.

The world didn't beat the streets of Arlington looking for witnesses.

The world is going to have to wait. They've waited for 5 yrs, they can wait a another week or two.

We announced our information as protection and we have NEVER made a documentary before.

We are trying to balance day jobs and families with creating a 4 hour "Researcher's Edition" and a shorter more concise 2 hour "Smoking Gun Version". You try doing that in 3-4 months.

The information by itself is worthless. Presented and accompanied by researchers and a Pentagon victim is much more powerful.

We are not going to just put a few witnesses on youtube and create a "viewer guide" PDF, to leave it to be fodder for forum debates.

This is going straight to a grand jury, to gov't/ law enforcement officials... to news outlets. It will need to go viral.


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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Will you be releasing your witness interviews in full?
Unaltered? Unedited?

Will you be releasing a full and accurate account of every contact you had with these people?
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Bryan Sacks Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-13-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. The 9/11 Commission's hasn't released ITS source interviews!
And here you are hounding someone who hasn't even completed a homemade project yet about releasing his.

Funny what some people's priorities are. Particularly authority-loving phonies.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-13-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Then CIT should provide us a better example...
Edited on Tue Feb-13-07 12:29 AM by boloboffin
...and show that they haven't manipulated any witness testimony at all.

They should release the witness interviews in full, unedited, unaltered. Do the 9/11 Commission one better, guys! Take the high road! Give us what you got, right now! Let the chips fall where they may -- you can release a director's cut AND a final cut later on down the line, just like Dylan and the posse!

Reveal your information! Bring down the MAN, baby!

PS: Still think Hillary killed Vince Foster, dude?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-13-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. You think pods and "no plane crash in Shanksville" are retarded, yet
Edited on Tue Feb-13-07 12:26 AM by greyl
you're defending this movie? edit: marketing for a non-existent movie, I should say. /edit
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Bryan Sacks Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-13-07 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I'm defending only consistency, and pointing to Bolo's lack of it.
I know nothing about the movie.

Step up, greyl, and speak out about the appalling lack of regard for transparency shown by the Commissioners.

Or, if you prefer, allow me to show you to Mr. Milgram's machine.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-13-07 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I consistently maintain that the PentaCon should one-up the 9/11 Commission
and release all interviews unaltered, unedited. They can release all the edited movies they like. Just give us the source material.

Tell the truth, Pentacom, unvarnished and unfiltered, and shame that 9/11 Commission devil!
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-13-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. yes it is Bryon...
obvious what their priorities are IMO. And it sure isn't finding the truth! :wtf: They've swallowed the Bush/PNAC CT hook lineand sinker! :shrug:
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