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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 05:18 PM
Original message
Thermite devices...pdf
Link!

A very enlightening read! IMHO! :hi:
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. I can link to nuclear devices or high explosive cutting charges ...
because they exist doesn't mean they were used.

The fundamental flaw with the thermite theory is that no one can explain what advantage it has over conventional high explosives. Why use bulky thermite charges when you can use these?:

http://www.dynawell.de/explosives_lsc.html
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. that's a very...
strange position to take. Eitherway, the investigation should clear all this up, if we ever get one! :shrug:
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Logic is somewhat strange in this setting
but it does have its uses.

The point simply that there is no evidence that thermite was used.

And there will never be another investigation - it is not an issue with the public and Congress has no intention investigating 911.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Perhaps...
they'll change their minds at some point.
Your statement that there's no evidence thermit was used is dubious at best when considering nuclear physicist Dr. Steven Jones' research which states otherwise.
But I can understand where you're coming from. After all, there's no evidence left of anything considering 911 except PNAC approved data.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. But Jones has no evidence ..
none that he is willing to publish. His proof is nothing more than what is found on any CT site - he certainly has no physical evidence.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. but see,
there's where you're wrong! He and others have physical evidence! Read the book!
:hi:
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I looked at it and saw nothing that I would consider proof ..
can you summarize what you consider the physical evidence?
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. you looked at it?
What? The cover? :rofl:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. This is where you step up and answer hack89's question...
about the purported physical evidence that the non-peer-reviewed, formerly of BYU, formerly of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, Dr. Jones, has.

Or will you dodge again?

Sid

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Big Pappa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. That may take awhile.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. no dodge here,
Edited on Fri Jan-26-07 09:36 AM by wildbilln864
I drive a chevy!
If hack was paying attention he'd know and so would you. Jones has physical samples from the WTC that he and others have been analyzing. Is that simple enough for you?


watch one of the many presentations of Jones and learn something!
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. When may we expect Jones to publish the results...
of his analysis?

Sid
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Possibly...
you could write him and ask him.
But I expect before the end of the year. :shrug:
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. "Before the end of the year"? What's taking so long?
If he's got hot data, shouldn't he get it out right away? It can't be all -that- complicated to write up.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Logic: would this device produce the evidence Jones claims to have?
Jones, I believe, claims to have found chemical evidence of thermite on randomly obtained pieces of steel supposedly from WTC. There are lots of problems with this claim (chain of custody, contamination), but the major question for current purposes is:
"Would this device produce the evidence Jones claims?"

Jones (claims to have) found residue of thermite, but this device would use only small amounts of thermite and only small bits of steel would be contdaminated with thermite residue. Would you expect that Jones found thermite residue on a piece of steel originating on (say) the 23rd floor?
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. An interesting misdirection is in there...
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 09:12 PM by jberryhill
Particularly if "Robert Moore Esq." is a patent attorney. (I am USPTO Reg. No. 36,452, http://des.uspto.gov/OEDCI/details.do?regisNum=36452 )

It is worth pointing out that due to some changes made in the US patent system several years ago, patent applications, which used to be maintained in secrecy during pendency, are now published at 18 months from the earliest effective filing date on which the application is based.

Moore makes a number of citations to a patent application 20060266204. Published application numbers are distinguishable from patent numbers, which are serially assigned, in that that application numbers are preceded by the year of publication.

What this boils down to is that patent application 20060266204 is based upon an application filed on Mar. 8, 2005 (as a provisional application). It was re-filed as a utility application on March 12, 2006, and then published in November 2006.

Now here's the thing that stands out as a deliberately misleading statement. In footnote viii, Moore goes off on a tangent about the long pendency time for patent applications. That is true, it takes a long time to get a patent. However, the footnote's point about the backlog of unexamined applications is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the fact that he is citing a published application originally filed in 2005, as exemplary of technology that is alleged to have been employed in 2001. If you understand the patent system it is very difficult to interpret Moore's jump from a 2006 published application, to a digression on pendency time, as anything other than a deliberate attempt to draw away the attention of a lay reader to the fact that he is citing a document published in 2006. The lay reader would presumably conclude from this juxtaposition that "Oh, it says 2006, but these things take a long time to surface". That is an invalid conclusion. The applications are published on schedule at 18 months whether they have been examined or not.

If Moore is a patent attorney, then he knows EXACTLY why that footnote is misleading. Curiously, this Journal does not, as every other scientific journal does, identify the contact information for authors of its papers. If it is "peer reviewed" then ANY patent attorney reading that footnote would have said, "WTF? Why is he citing a 2005-filed application for a device he suggests was used in 2001?"

There are some other points about that application which would also be apparent to any patent attorney "peer reviewer". The application uses what patent attorneys call "prophetic" language when describing the construction and use of the device. Contrary to popular myth, you don't have to build the device or even a model of the device prior to filing a patent application. You can file the application based on an embodiment of a device which you believe *will* work as designed. The utility requirement of patentability is a low threshold, because granting patents on things that don't work doesn't really do any harm in a practical sense - i.e. nobody is going to be sued for infringing a patent on a non-functional device anyway. So, when you read the patent application, it is crystal clear that language in the application saying thing such as:

"By careful design and compartmentalization, solid fuels and oxidizers (or gas-producing agents) can be separated inside sealed compartments. Essentially instantaneous thermal activation along the length of the device will produce a uniform, high-velocity linear jet. A linear thermite charge's modular unit design will allow adaptation for a desired geometry and will be easily deployed in the field. As used herein, a linear thermite charge includes straight linear and curvilinear charges. Integrated attachment mechanisms for fixing the device to a target material or structure are preferred. These mechanisms will allow for quick attachment at any angle and will ensure that the device is firmly anchored to the material.

"This level of material strength is anticipated to be more than adequate for the anticipated stress levels from the reaction of the energetic materials."


Patent attorneys do not choose verb tenses at random, because there is an obligation under 18 USC 1001 for an oath or declaration to accompany the patent filing. Hence, if the device has been made and tested, these types of statements will say "are separatred" instead of "can be separated" or "allows" instead of "will allow". Because if it turns out that one of the embodiments doesn't really work or wasn't made, then you can be called on the carpet for drafting the application as if it had been made or tested prior to filing.

Accordingly, the suggestion by Moore that the device was somehow the subject of secret testing or use some five years earlier than the filing date is contradicted by the language actually used in the patent application.

I don't know how clear I've managed to make that, but if you know a patent attorney, go ahead and show him or her the Moore paper along with these comments, and you should get a definite response.




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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. In summary....
It remains unclear whether it is even possible to cut beams of the required thickness by thermite. The device may not have been built. The patent does not specify the materials of which it is built. The patent does not produce test data of the effectiveness of the device.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yes, that's one thing to be gleaned from the article...

The other is that the yet-unbuilt device was state-of-the-art in 2005.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. and here's another...
informative link!

free membership required to view.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. But, will it cut an I-beam?
Honestly, there's no demonstration of this.

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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-26-07 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
18. kicked!
:hi:
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. and kicked!
:hi:
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. While kicking, do you suppose you could respond

...to my comments on the substance of the report?
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. no.
my point of this thread is that such devices exist. :hi:
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. But the article you posted does not show that point
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. No? No? No? There are a number of simple questions you have ignored?
Can you not answer them?
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. You keep kicking, but you won't respond to comments. Why?
Cat got your tongue? Fingers burned off by thermite?

Succinctly: What you have here is a -patent application-, recently filed. There are drawings of a concept, but no demonstration that it works and no data as to its performance. The fact that a patent application is so recently files suggests very strongly that thermite -has not- been in use anywhere for cutting thick beams. It is, therefore, entirely unclear whether the device described in the application will actually work and even less clear whether it would have any advantage over conventional explosive shaped charges.

It is further very doubtful whether this device would produce the 'evidence' claimed by Jones and other CD CTers. If this thing "cuts through steel like butter", how much thermite residue would you expect to find on a randomly selected piece of steel from the wreckage?

And 'fer Gawd's sake, how would this account for "molten pools of metal"??

"Just asking questions."
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. kicking...
cause I can!
:hi:
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-13-07 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
29. kick!
:hi:
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-07-07 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
30. kick!
:hi:
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undergroundrailroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-07-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. Locking
I think we've exhausted all conversation in this thread. The contents of the thread will be available as a "read only".


Thanks for your participation.


:hi: Undergroundrailroad
DU Lead Moderator
911 Forum
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