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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 09:44 AM
Original message
Manuel Garcia Sees Physics That Don’t Exist
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5272

Manuel Garcia Sees Physics That Don’t Exist

by Kevin Ryan

Another Opportunity to Understand Our Predicament

Over the years we’ve heard from a few educated people who claim to understand and support the latest story given by the US government for the unprecedented destruction of the WTC buildings. Unfortunately, those folks usually turn out to either work for the Bush Administration directly, like FEMA and NIST, or are in some other way profiting from the War on Terror. Some people accept what these Bush scientists say because they have PhDs in scientific fields, or because certain media sources promote the official myths. In a way, the curious behavior of these scientists and media sources allows us to better see the predicament we all face.

With the case of Manuel Garcia, and his three recent, rapid-fire articles in Counterpunch, we appear to have another opportunity to examine the phenomenon of Bush science. Here we see a fully educated scientist making strong supportive statements of the Bush Administration’s 9/11 theories, despite the fact that he must know those theories are based on false or unsubstantiated claims. For our own understanding, let’s take a closer look at Manuel Garcia and his efforts.

Garcia not only works for the government, he works for a very interesting organization in terms of the best hypothesis for what happened that day. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL), Garcia’s employer, appears to be where explosive thermite was invented, and it continues to be a focus of research there.(1) At LLNL, government scientists have learned how to combine the exothermic power of the thermite reaction with organic moieties to produce a thermite reaction that can do pressure/volume work (i.e. turn massive quantities of concrete and other building materials into dust). From the research of Steven Jones, we know that the thermite reaction likely played a role in bringing the towers down, and it would not be surprising if technology developed by LLNL was involved. Could that be why Manuel Garcia is so intent on seeing Physics that don’t exist, in order to avoid seeing links to technology developed by his employer?

There may be more to it than that. Notice that there are many aspects about the official story of 9/11/01 that strain credulity, to say the least, but none more so than the “collapse” of the WTC buildings. As with the air defense failures, we’ve been given several contradictory stories about these events over the years, none of which have panned out. The first was an urban legend that grew, as a result of the long delays in official commitment, from media reports of extreme temperatures and melting steel. We were given other stories for the destruction of these buildings, but the Pancake Theory, which was the primary explanation offered by FEMA and was the central explanation in numerous media stories, lasted for a period of more than three years. The Pancake Theory recently died a quiet death with the FAQ responses offered by NIST, but as with the urban legend media stories, we have been offered no apologies from those who propped-up the ongoing 9/11 Wars with these false claims...

Continued...
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5272
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Typical smear
Manuel Garcia a native New Yorker who works as a physicist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California with a PhD Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering, from Princeton His technical interests are generally in fluid flow and energy, specifically in gas dynamics and plasma physics; and his working experience includes measurements on nuclear bomb tests, devising mathematical models of energetic physical effects, and trying to enlarge a union of weapons scientists. He can be reached at [email protected]

Its obvious this guy's credentials should be in question :eyes:

Note all the substantive counter-argument offered in that article. :eyes: :eyes:


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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. You must remember Kevin Ryan
is a hero 9/11 "whistle-blower." They guy from UL that wrote a communication about how the NIST was misleading the public. The problem was Ryan did not understand what he was commenting on, and wound up getting fired.

But remember he is a hero "whistle-blower" so he needs no credentials to make authoritative comments and innuendo. Ryan is a joke.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. The Lawrence Livermore NATIONAL Laboratory -US DOE
How naive can you be? (I know you're not really, you know damn well what it means, but I'll humor you)It is operated by the University of California for the US Department of Energy
(You know, energy as in oil, as in big bucks and Enron). They are the same guys who "informed" Dr. Jones of the cold fusion research that he promptly put an end to.

If he didn't write that paper with that conclusion, he'd lose his job, it's called "Bush science".
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting
Edited on Thu Dec-28-06 10:33 AM by vincent_vega_lives
Here http://www.journalof911studies.com/ the first article I go to http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200611/911-Acceleration-Study-Proves-Explosive-Demolition.pdf

I google the author and his company and only come up with 9-11 conspiracy sites, nothing else. Can find no online info on Dr. Frank Legge from Perth Australia or his company.


Not that proves anything but...
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. For people who claim to be seeking truth,
CTers surely do present the writings of a demonstrable LIAR like Kevin Ryan with criticism.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Everyone is a demostratable liar, bolo. If there are swiftboaters to demonstrate
it.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. That's a very good article. Garcia reminds me of the "experts" who knew
it was impossible for the Earth to revolve around the sun, and said so.

Thanks for posting it, it's well worth the read.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Wow
Gracia, a physicist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California reminds you of theologians that tried to force all science into biblical scholasticism from medieval times?

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Sure, those theologians were "experts" who defended the state from the likes
of anyone who would challenge the official story. Much like Gacia.

I've found it's good to be suspicious of those who claim to have all the answers, whether they be theologians or scientists.

People get hung up on their own infallibilty.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I see no evidence of Mr Garcia
seeing himself as infallible or having all the answers.

Nor is he defending the state. The NIST is not the state any more than a hundreds other institutions that get funding by the government.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Would they exist absent the state? I didn't think so either. n/t
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I think they could
There are plenty of reasons an organization similar to the NISTS would be supported by the private sector. Perhaps not as large and perhaps with a reduced and more specific scope then the NISTS, but I see nothing that requires a state to secure its existence
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Anything is possible. My guess though is it's not that probable. n/t
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. The idea of Earth revolving around the Sun
was demonstrated by scientific method. I don't see a lot of that type of research from "truth-seekers." Those who believed in the universe revolving around the Earth used the Bible and philosophical ideas, rejecting the concept of empiricism. Yours is a false analogy.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Sure, but the idea of the sun revolving around the Earth was demonstrated
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 01:43 PM by John Q. Citizen
by simple observation. It appears that the sun moves across the sky and come back up on the other side the next morning.

It took many years before the powers that be excepted the logic and rational put forth by Gallileo. They didn't look at his theory and say, "By golly, you are right." It wasn't because they were stupid. They were just wedded to their own theory. The bible doesn't talk about the sun revolving around the Earth, by the way, and it also didn't matter a whit to the religious when later on the theory Gallileo published turned out to be true. It didn't cause the end of religion or anything like that.

People are still wedded to thier preconcieved notions, which is one reason, that by and large, most of the new and exciting advances in science come from the young, who don't have as much to lose and more to gain by turning the world on it's head.

The old farts tend to defend the status quo. And well established scientists living on government grants tend to defend the status quo as well. Just as scientists working for the tobacco companies tend to not find the link between smoking and cancer. Guys and gals with PHds. I mean, they always have somebody to drag out there as an "expert" who can show why global warming is false, right? For 30 years now thay get up and say, "What me worry? I don't see any of those guys starving and out of jobs, do you?

Who is funding Garcia's work?

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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. OK...
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 08:42 PM by Anarcho-Socialist
...the Bible is sketchy on planetary arrangement but the Catholic Church certainly put forward the view that Earth in its own uniqueness was the centre of the universe based on the relationship between man and god as taken from the Bible.

However comparing Garcia to junk scientists who proselytise for tobacco companies and for the denial of global warming will not do, as it has not been demonstrated that he shares those positions.

You also make these scientists sound like welfare queens growing fat on government grants. My impression tends to be that competition for government grants is usually fierce and the money is never quite enough.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. From the article in the OP
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5272

snip

Garcia’s analysis of the WTC thermodynamics then begins with the removal of all of the fireproofing from all the steel, an unsupported assumption at best. In any case, to consider temperature increases, an honest scientist would take the materials and the energy sources involved, and perform some straightforward calculations to evaluate the available energies. In the case of the WTC towers, we know from FEMA and NIST that about 4,500 gallons of jet fuel were available to feed the fires on the impact and failure floors, giving an energy value of approximately 600 GJ, considering moderate combustion. And we know the buildings had a fire load of 20 Kg/m^2, which would provide an energy value of about 500 GJ for the furnishings on several floors in the vicinity of the failure zones.(3) These realistic values give a total energy of about 1,100 GJ that would be available to heat one building, but Garcia uses 8,000 GJ and 3,000 GJ, values NIST created through their deceptive, pretzel-logic manipulations.

Maybe this incredible energy yield means that Garcia and NIST have solved the energy crisis, and we can end the 9/11 Wars and bring our troops home. If not, maybe Garcia can help us understand where all that additional energy came from, instead of just spouting off with so much arrogance. We really would appreciate it.

In the absence of this explanation, Garcia proceeds to apply this tremendous amount of mysterious energy to the heating of the materials involved. But instead of taking the quantities of steel, concrete, and other materials into account (don’t forget the aircraft itself) Garcia helps us to “expand our range of rationality” by dumbing-down the scenario using a “fictitious homogenized” substance called “ironcrete”. Garcia muddies the water with his ironcrete because, although he doesn’t give the calculations, this allows him to use a sleight of hand, giving a value for specific heat that is less than that of any of the starting materials. Few would notice, but this means that, in support of Garcia’s purposes, it takes less heat to increase the temperature of each kilogram of ironcrete than it would to increase the temperature of the steel and concrete used in the WTC towers. Since he’s using eight times more energy than could have been available anyway, this minor scam doesn’t seem worth the effort.

But note that Garcia also suggests all the available heat became trapped in his ironcrete, thereby assuming that no hot gases left the impact zone, that no heat escaped by conduction, and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat. He also conveniently ignores all the other materials in the aircraft and the buildings, including the Aluminum, all the office furnishings, and the vast amount of air and water vapor, all of which would be heated too, absorbing energy. Considering his quantum mechanical collapse dynamics and magical fireproofing loss, these distributions of heat energy may not seem so strange, that is until Garcia needs that energy back to support his later claims of melting Aluminum, plastic “cracking” to create dense pockets of hydrocarbon vapors that mimic high-explosives, and even a replay of the beginnings of life on earth (no kidding).
snip

more....


This guy sounds like a joker.

Reminds me of that guy, Greening was it..? who liked to collect atoms from the environment so they could end up where he needed them to explain excess sulpher?

This guy Garcia just moves the heat around where he needs it, according to the article. Very scientific, if you believe in magic.

What Garcia's study really suggests it that their was excess heat. That would account for where Garcia sees heat acting to take down the building. His magic doesn't explain the excess heat, though.

Which is why some super thermite substance has been proposed as a possible source of that heat. Because since early on, one readily observable fact is that there was some excess heat in the absence of a good explainable source.

Because it better explains the heat surplus, it's a better theory than plane, kerosine, and fire.

Even if it's wrong.

But there does seem to be a lot of evidence of surplus heat.

I mean either the kerosine burned down the elavator shaft 80 stories and got burned up there or it stayed up on the floor where it was hit and almost all of it disappated in the initial fire ball.

You can't be moving all that heat around and try to have it all end up back being used to weaken steel cores.


You can't have your cake and eat it too. There was excess heat from some unknown source and it showed up in the ariel photography as well as in the eyewitness reports of molton metal; It was evidenced in the massive amounts of water pumped and the pulverization. There was too much unexplained energy released considering the fire floors and duration of the fire events, and Garcia makes that clear. Just ignor his magical heat transfer when and where it's needed and one can see how much heat there had to be to get anywhere near where Garcia needs it to be.









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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. "Ironcrete" isn't recognized by spellcheck -OH! That's because he made it up!
"heat trapped in "ironcrete""???? Hmm, now why would he need to "create" more energy? Because there isn't enough made available in the "official" version to explain what happened! When I see the OCT's defending this kind of stuff, I realize that they can't possibly believe what they are posting. Oh, but he 's an "expert", that means that they automatically trust him (or so they say) , just like CNN newsmen with blow-dried hair.
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-28-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Huh
Edited on Thu Dec-28-06 04:06 PM by vincent_vega_lives
So you think gas dynamics and plasma physics are somehow similar to theo-centric science?
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
18. "Bush scientists"! He's right about that one.eom
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