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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 08:43 AM
Original message
Bizarre New Attack by Alexander Cockburn on 9/11 Truth Movement
You've probably already read it, but if you haven't, you can find it here.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11282006.html

Brief summary: he says we're all nuts, should get therapy and have caused the American left to decline.

This passage struck me as being completely bizarre:


Indeed it's very probable that the FBI or US military intelligence, even the CIA, had penetrated the Al Qaeda team planning the 9/11 attacks; that intelligence reports--some are already known--piled up in various Washington bureaucracies pointing to the impending onslaught and even the manner in which it might be carried out.

The history of intelligence operations is profuse with example of successful intelligence collection, but also fatal slowness to act on the intelligence, along with eagerness not to compromise the security and future usefulness of the informant, who has to prove his own credentials by even pressing for prompt action by the plotters. Sometime an undercover agent will actually propose an action, either to deflect efforts away from some graver threat, or to put the plotters in a position where they can be caught red-handed. In their penetrations of environmental groups the FBI certainly did this.


He appears to be suggesting that (a) the CIA is lying and knew much more about the hijackers than it let on (my comment: he's right, it is lying), but (ii) we shouldn't trouble ourselves about it any more, because it's just not going to be a false flag attack and it's probably incompetence anyway.

This is the wierdest thing I've seen for some time. In the sentence "Sometime an undercover agent will actually propose an action ... to put the plotters in a position where they can be caught red-handed" he seems to be suggesting that the CIA (or other agency) even facilitated the attack itself. However, he doesn't seem to want a new investigation.

This is just completely bizarre and anti-democratic - how can democracy work without scrutiny of the intelligence services? If the CIA is lying (it is), then let's have their lies exposed and see the relevant officials go to jail - for the cover-up, if nothing else. If they knew more about the hijackers or even helped them, then let's have all the messy details, because the details of 9/11 frame the debate about the trade-off between civil liberties and security we are currently making.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Does Cockburn actually date the "decline of the left" to 9/12/01? That's
about as hilarious as it gets.

And I see that Cockburn ties Oswald to the Kennedy assassination. Wow! That's intellectual. Though he never makes the claim that Oswald acted alone, or that Oswald didn't act alone.

And apparently he still embraces the pancake theory. I guess he doesn't realize that NIST has moved on.

Cockburn is apparently appalled that all the speakers at an anti-war event didn't endlessly recite his points about why the Iraq war is bad. Hey, most people at an anti war rally probably already know that.

My hope is that Cockburn gets daily email about 9/11 until he is a little old man and breaths his last gasp. Just to piss him off.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. heh heh, I'll put in my two cents
on the email. (I'm sure it's already been done) The entire audience hissed at the sound of his name at the Berkeley lecture.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. So he's confirming what many of us suspect, then
condemning us? I heard about this attack in that Berkeley lecture (on video). One of the editors of The Nation was speaking out against 911, so it was ironic. How can the 911 truth movement be ruining the left? Everyone I talk to who doesn't already know about it, easily believes it with the introduction of a few facts.
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softwarevotingtrail Donating Member (107 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Cockburn thinks box cutters against US defense forces is a fair fight
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 11:31 AM by softwarevotingtrail
Cockburn says that people who doubt the official version have way too much confidence in American "efficiency." That there is nothing unusual at all about the fact that US military aircraft didn't respond in a timely manner to attacks on some of the most highly protected targets on Planet Earth.

It's not surprising in the slightest to Cockburn that the multi-billion dollar American defense & security machine failed to do what it's supposed to do (scramble jets, shoot down aircraft, etc.) In fact, he says it's "preposterous" to assume that lack of a timely military response was anything usual at all.

At the same time, he believes it's perfectly within reason to assume that a few dozen cave dwellers armed with box-cutters were able to carry out a flawless mission against these high-profile targets.

What's irrational is to ignore the obvious: That the official version of events on Sept. 11 simply due not add up.

Even Harper's Magazine has called the official 9/11 Commission report a "white wash." I don't know what happened that day. All I want to see is a real investigation of what happened not tainted by conflicts of interest and partisanship. Condi Rice's close friend and colleague Phil Zelikow was the chairman of the commission, for God's sake!

I do believe that the Truth Movement has done enormous good. I believe that it has caused millions of people to mistrust the Bush Administration. I believe it has caused millions of people to vote against the people who got us into the Iraq War on false pretenses. I also believe that if indeed 9/11 was a conspiracy involving rogue elements of the military-industrial complex, that the Truth Movement has served as a warning to these people, to paraphrase Sting: Every step you take, we'll be watching you.




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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Welcome to DU!...nt
Sid
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. It's funny, separating out the political aspect of the 9/11 movement and the
fact that a lot of people just believe that it's an inside job. I've thought is was an inside job from the first.

I for one have never read any of the work of Griffin, Rupert, Alex Jones or the guy from canada, ( i forget his name) but I don't feel like I'm missing out because of it.

We have this infighting between those who believe 9/11 was an inside job, and then we also have this infighting on the left between those who believe 9/11 was an inside job and those who don't.

I think that a lot of the people who practice politics on a professional level (and that includes professional political journalists) are fighting for turf. That has always happened prior to 9/11 and 9/11 apparently hasn't changed that a bit.

I honestly don't hate Cockburn because he believes 9/11 wasn't an inside job, but it does annoy me that he attributes mental deficiency, racism, or stupidity to me because I do. In fact, while I was reading his curious screed, I also found a great article on his site about the uprising in Oaxaca and the social and political background to the uprising. So Cockburn and his site aren't totally useless by any means. I just get tired of the turf battles sometimes which are really incidental to whether 9/11 was an inside job or not.

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
35. I think I owe you an apology
The other day I had called you out on another thread because I had 'misinterpreted' some of your other posts and I thought you were an OCTer. Obviously, I was wrong and I am sorry.

DYEW
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Thanks, apology accepted. I wondered what that was about.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. Seems discrediting and condemning the 9-11 truth movement
has become a cottage industry. The unfortunate thing is that a lot of progressives are becoming convinced by people like Cockburn that anyone who wants to know the truth about 9-11 is a wacko. I was at a party last weekend and ran into a fellow who's been very, very active in progressive causes for decades. We got to talking about politics, which is no surprise since both of us are very 'political' and usually in agreement. I was shocked to find out that he would totally discount the 9-11 truth movement. He was all in a twist because we were 'mad' at Amy Goodman and Noam Chomskey. How could we ever come out against them? Excuse me, last time I checked they came out against us. The real jaw dropper was that he believed the 9-11 movement was trying to destroy the Democratic Party. My response was that I can't believe that people like Goodman and Chomskey would try to prevent other people from trying to find out the truth. When someone is so opposed to finding out the truth then something is very wrong and my reaction is to keeping digging further.

I can understand a lot of people don't even want to think about this stuff and that's fine. But for those of us who know that something terribly wrong happened that day and that people within our own government were very involved, then I can't rest until the truth is uncovered and the people involved are brought to justice, I don't care who they turn out to be.

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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. bob dylan
Well, I don't mind a reasonable amount of trouble,
Trouble always comes to pass
But all I care about now
Is that I'm seeing the real you at last.

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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. oops
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 11:13 PM by paulthompson
ignore
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. I noticed the same thing
I conclude Cockburn is deep in denial, like most people, and that he's a supercilious asshole
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spillthebeans Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. The establishment is afraid that the whole card house might collapse nt

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Bryan Sacks Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I saw the same thing, Kevin
Have much to say about it, but when I have more time.

It is truly bizarre.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. How do you arrive at "bizarre"?
Could you show me where Cockburn suggests that scrutiny of intelligence services is a bad idea?
Could you show me where he says Conspiracists are all mentally ill and in need of therapy?


Michael Neumann, a philosopher, and CounterPunch contributor, at the University of Trent, in Ontario, remarked in a note to me:
"I think the problem of conspiracy nuttery has got worse, and is part of a general trend. There really were serious questions about the Kennedy assassination, an unusual number of them, and it wasn't too crazy to come to the wrong conclusion. There wasn't a single serious question about 9-11. But this is the age of angels, creationism, corpses all over Kosovo, Arabs suspiciously speaking Arabic, Satanic child abuse, nucular Eyraquees, and channeling. The main engine of the 9-11 conspiracy cult is nothing political; it's the death of any conception of evidence.

"This probably comes from the decline of Western power. Deep down, almost everyone, across the political spectrum, is locked in a bigotry which can only attribute that decline to some irrational or supernatural power. The result is the ascendency of magic over common sense, let alone reason."

________________________

By the same token, I'm sure that the Bush gang, and all the conspirators of capital, are delighted at the obsessions of the 9/11 conspiracists. It's a distraction from the 1,001 real plots of capitalism that demand exposure and political challenge.

"The tendency to occultism is a symptom of regression in consciousness", Adorno wrote in Minima Moralia. . "The veiled tendency of society towards disaster lulls its victims in a false revelation, with a hallucinated phenomenon. In vain they hope in its fragmented blatancy to look their total doom in the eye and withstand it The offal of the phenomenal world becomes, to sick consciousness, the mundus intelligibilis."
http://www.counterpunch.com/cockburn11282006.html
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. More meta-analytical nonsense from "philosophers" pretending
there's no such thing as false flag terror attacks, and our government and corporate media should always be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to telling us the truth about crucial events.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:07 PM
Original message
You could not have read it.
Remembering our conversations about Mayor Brown and that PBS show, that's all I have to say to you.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
31. I read your post which is what I commented on. n/t
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
12. Wow, when did well written, clearly thought out
musing on the Lefts conspiracy theorists become bizarre and undemocratic.
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. He thinks we're nuts, but...
... he says:


Indeed it's very probable that the FBI or US military intelligence, even the CIA, had penetrated the Al Qaeda team planning the 9/11 attacks.


Which is one of our main points. If one of our main points is right, we can't be nuts.

He also goes on to suggest they MIHOP:


Sometime an undercover agent will actually propose an action... to put the plotters in a position where they can be caught red-handed.


He's suggesting the CIA (or other agency) took actions to make the plot go forward, that's MIHOP.

To sum up, he says:
(1) We're nuts;
(2) OK, maybe they did MIHOP.

You don't find that bizarre?

On the whacko scale I give him a double Nico, a triple Webfairy and a quadruple Judy.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. He's not suggesting that at all
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 09:22 AM by LARED
He's suggesting the CIA (or other agency) took actions to make the plot go forward, that's MIHOP.

The quote

Indeed it's very probable that the FBI or US military intelligence, even the CIA, had penetrated the Al Qaeda team planning the 9/11 attacks; that intelligence reports--some are already known--piled up in various Washington bureaucracies pointing to the impending onslaught and even the manner in which it might be carried out. The history of intelligence operations is profuse with example of successful intelligence collection, but also fatal slowness to act on the intelligence, along with eagerness not to compromise the security and future usefulness of the informant, who has to prove his own credentials by even pressing for prompt action by the plotters.


He's is suggesting that a government intelligence institution may of had people on the ground that knew more than what is public knowledge, but because of bureaucratic inertia and ineffective communication processes this information was not acted on. IMO this is quite probable and not in the least indicative of MIHOP. Those types of things happen in every business and organization.

He's suggesting the CIA (or other agency) took actions to make the plot go forward, that's MIHOP.

The quote

Sometime an undercover agent will actually propose an action, either to deflect efforts away from some graver threat, or to put the plotters in a position where they can be caught red-handed. In their penetrations of environmental groups the FBI certainly did this.


Again this does not indicate MIHOP. Just how do you think undercover agents act? here's how; they get in the inside to assist in making bad stuff happen so the can foil the plot and catch then. The agent inside does not necessarily know every detail of an operation, as terror cell operate with very limited "intercell" communication.

Here's the bottom line; the intelligence agencies screwed up AGAIN. History is full of screwed up intelligence operation.

On edit

I am fully aware that intelligence agencies can act in ways that allows bad stuff to happen to obtain a goal. There is simply no evidence that is the case on 9/11



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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. The idea that...
... the CIA
(a) Knew more about the hijackers than they have admitted (which is a slam-dunk);
(b) Had penetrated the hijackers' cell (which Cockburn thinks is "very probable"); and
(c) Whilst posing as members of the cell, had taken actions to facilitate the plot (for example by giving the hijackers money or keeping information from the FBI), whether they knew the full details of the plot or not (which is what Cockburn is suggesting);

But that they didn't Make It Happen On Purpose is not going to fly.

You only saved the intellectual coherence of your position with your edit, but Cockburn doesn't have any such edit - once again, he admits the penetration is "very probable" - hence "bizarre".


No evidence the CIA did anything bad regarding 9/11?! Does not informing the FBI the hijackers were in the country not count as bad? If they knew they were al-Qaeda operatives and followed them round for 2 years, why did they let them carry out the mission? At the very least, the CIA was conducting an illegal operation in the US to penerate the hijackers' cell. As the operation was illegal and resulted in 3,000 deaths, then I think we can clearly classify it as "something bad".
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Jarrah and Ashehhi knew they were being followed.....
Yeah....well .....the CIA/FBI/Mossad or whoever..... were so shit hot that both lead hijackers,Jarrah and Alshehhi, were aware that they were being followed in the weeks and months before 9/11......


Ramzi Binalshib confirmed to Fouda that members of the Hambourg cell,who by then were in thr final phases of the operation in the run up to the zero hour,were frequently being tailed."For example" he(Binalshib) said proudly,"brothers Marwan and Ziad were tailed by security officers throughout their reconnaissance flight from New York to California-all the way through.But Allah was with them"

Page 135.
Masterminds Of Terror



.....gee.....these Arab geniuses must have been sooooo confident......knowing that they were subjects of interest for the security apparatus.........but still went ahead with 9/11.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. But Allah was with them (n/t)
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Sure........ Allah was with Al-CIA -DA! n/t
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Good catch, I'd completely forgotten that
And let's not forget Alhazmi and Almihdhar thought they were followed to the US from Thailand, too. KSM says:


Mihdhar also gave a general report to Sheikh Mohammed, telling him of their problems enrolling in language schools and that they believed they were surveilled from Thailand to the US. (p. 20)
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/defense/941.pdf
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. You ain't never heard of Al-CIA-da
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 10:12 AM by seatnineb

In the words of LARED
I am fully aware that intelligence agencies can act in ways that allows bad stuff to happen to obtain a goal. There is simply no evidence that is the case on 9/11



Come on........."intelligence agencies" are hardly going to leave evidence lying around showing that they have allowed bad stuff to happen....are they?

The evidence that intelligence agencies leave lying around leading to the bad stuff gets attributed to their alter ego's....you know...al-CIA-da.....


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spillthebeans Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. you mean the flying passports have been planted? eom
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. So, LARED, what's the difference?
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 04:09 PM by mhatrw
If the entire 9/11 cover up is because US intelligence assets inadvertently facilitated 9/11, does that make everything OK in your book?

Why are these nuances of intent so damned important to defenders of the 9/11 official conspiracy theory? Why is it so critical for y'all to have us believe they are covering up negligent homicide rather than murder in the first degree?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Evidence. nt
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Cute.
And meaningless.

How do cops solve crimes?

You must confront your suspects with the worst possible charges against them. No investigator has ever gotten anywhere by tacitly assuming the best possible motives of his or her prime suspects.

Yet you desperately want us to attribute the best possible motives to every single non-Arab involved in the mass murder of 3,000 souls on US soil. Why?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. No, I don't. Do you enjoy arguing with a caricature of my position?
The fact that you haven't shown a single factual weakness in Cockburn's article remains.
Besides, as long as it gets people talking about "9/11 Truth", it's a good thing, correct?
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Not talking so much as thinking.
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 07:26 PM by mhatrw
Nice side-step, BTW.

There's almost nothing factual in Cockburn's article, leaving little to "factually dispute." However, I certainly have many problems with it:

1) Regardless of facts, skepticism about the events of 9/11 is inherently politically healthy given the litany of heinous acts that have since been committed in 9/11's name.

2) We could use a lot more good old fashioned American populism right now.

3) While Marx is an essential political theorist, the cult of Marxism is far more destructive to the left than the healthy distrust of elites who have consistently proven themselves to be untrustworthy to say the least.

4) There is nothing remotely racist about the suggestion that the failure of our trillion dollar a year national defense system to intercept a single hijacking over a 90 minute period on 9/11 bears extremely close scrutiny. According to the official story, everybody from the FBI, Cleveland Center ATC, United Airlines officials, the FAA, several other local ATC towers, Cleveland’s and Pittsburgh’s mayors to an entire roomful of concerned US Congressmen knew all about the threat Flight 93 posed at least 25 minutes before anybody in the US military was made aware of it -- more than 90 minutes into our biggest national security emergency since at least Pearl Harbor. So exactly who screwed up? How and why? Why aren't we entitled to ask these simple and obvious questions without having bizarre charges of racism thrown in our faces? Conflating this sort of inexcusable ineptitude with the failure to complete a risky hostage rescue mission in a foreign country is like comparing a baseball manager's decision to send just 3 fielders out on the field with his failure to pull a starting pitcher before he falters.

5) What is so destructive about 9/11 official story skeptics other than the fact that they threaten 9/11 official story apologists like Cockburn and the rest of the left gatekeepers who have spent the last five years studiously avoiding the subject of 9/11 accountability?

6) Cockburn writes, "Chuck Spinney, now retired after years of brilliant government service exposing the Pentagon's budgetary outrages, tells me that 'there ARE pictures taken of the 757 plane hitting Pentagon -- they were taken by the surveillance cameras at Pentagon's heliport, which was right next to impact point. I have seen them, both stills and moving pictures. I just missed seeing it personally, but the driver of the van I just got out of in South Parking saw it so closely that he could see the terrified faces of passengers in windows. I knew two people who were on the plane. One was ID'd by dental remains found in the Pentagon.'"

Is this second generation "insider" hearsay supposed to impress us? Are we supposed to be content with Cockburn's assurances that Spinney told him that Spinney's van driver saw something on a video the very existence of which has since been withheld from the US public for no discernible reason? Does Cockburn's strange brand of leftism support transparency in government?

7) When did Osama "take credit for the attacks"? Why did he originally deny he had anything to do with them? And aren't various terrorist groups always clamoring to "take credit" whenever something they don't like blows up?

8) Cockburn writes, "Ultimately, the 9/11 conspiracists want us to believe that the Bush/Cheney gang is a new breed of evil. This might be the most dangerous deception of all, for it fosters the fantasy that a new administration, a Hillary or Gore administration, would pursue more humane policies."

This is nothing but a huge, stinking strawman. Further, if some people believe that the Bush/Cheney gang are far more evil than the Democrats, so what? How is that contrary to the greater goals of the left?

9) Why would "helping" down the WTC towers with explosives require a conspiracy of thousands? Couldn't the small team needed to complete this work have easily been killed -- simply by having them report to the WTC towers again on 9/11 and locking the doors on them?

10) Cockburn writes, "There is a one particularly vigorous coven which has established to its own satisfaction that the original NASA moon landing was faked, and never took place. This "conspiracy" would have required the complicity of thousands of people , all of whom have kept their mouths shut. The proponents of the "fake moon landing" plot tend to overlap with the JFK and 9/11 crowds."

How would Cockburn respond if we were to apply his facile guilt-by-association technique to all of the various contributors to Counterpunch?

11) Cockburn writes, "The "conspiracy" is always open-ended as to the number of conspirators, widening steadily to include all the people involved in the execution and cover-up of the demolition of the Towers and the onslaught on the Pentagon, from the teams acquiring the explosives and the missile, inserting the explosives in the relevant floors of three vast buildings, (moving day after day among the unsuspecting office workers), then on 9/11 activating the detonators. Subsequently the conspiracy includes the disposers of the steel and rubble, the waste recyclers in Staten Island and perhaps even the Chinese who took the salvaged incriminating metal for use in the Three Gorges dam, where it will submerged in water and concrete for ever. Tens of thousands of people, all silent as the tomb to this day."

Another stinky strawman. But just for the sake of argument, how many office skyscraper workers so much as notice the existence of the building operation workers who move among them? How many people does it typically take to detonate a building once it is rigged for controlled demolition? And what are the people who disposed of the WTC metal before it could be analyzed supposed to say about this? To whom? Who would then report what?

12) Occam's Razor quite obviously does not apply to historical human events generally, and certainly not in the manner claimed by Cockburn vis a vis 9/11.

13) As for Sperry's "analysis," the buildings didn't stand for hours after impact. Nor was the demolition indistinguishable from the effects of plane crashes, unless you presuppose what you are trying to prove.

14) Why does Cockburn have more faith in FEMA's "explanation" of WTC-7's collapse than either the NIST or even FEMA itself?

15) Cockburn writes, "What is the goal of the 9/11 conspiracists? They ask questions, yes, but they never answer them. They never put forward an overall scenario of the alleged conspiracy. They say that's not up to them. So who is it up to? Who do they expect to answer their questions? When answers are put forward, they are dismissed as fabrications or they simply rebound with another question."

Yet another stinky strawman. What is wrong with asking questions about 9/11? Why is Cockburn the only one allowed to ask questions? Why do people seeking the truth about 9/11 need to answer his attacks? Why can't concerned citizens question their own government?

16) Cockburn writes, "As discussed in Wayne Barrett and Dan Collin's excellent book Grand Illusion, about Rudy Giuliani and 9/11, helicopter pilots radioed warnings nine minutes before the final collapse that the South Tower might well go down and, repeatedly, as much as 25 minutes before the North Tower's fall."

Why did they suspect as much -- considering that this event was historically unique? Why didn't word of these suspicions get out to anybody else until years after the fact?

17) When has Cockburn ever campaigned to hold anybody accountable for anything that happened on 9/11? How does attacking those who want to hold people accountable for their actions on 9/11 help further this supposed goal of his?

The rest of the article is simply more meta-analysis mumbo-jumbo that assumes that a healthy skepticism of one's government and corporate media outlets is a problem that requires a sociological diagnosis and cure.
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #32
43. Excellent analysis and refutation.Thanks. n/t
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. exposed again?
eh?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
23. Cockburn outs himself as a washed up "vulgar Marxist" and nihilist
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 11:44 AM by HamdenRice
There are two really telling passages. In one, he laments that the left no longer learns about politics from Marx, as though Marx is the only source of political wisdom in the world. That's the old "vulgar Marxist" approach, ie, that all of Marx's knowledge was perfect and that anything non Marxist is foolish.

Then later he reveals his political nihilism:

"Ultimately, the 9/11 conspiracists want us to believe that the Bush/Cheney gang is a new breed of evil. This might be the most dangerous deception of all, for it fosters the fantasy that a new adminstration, a Hillary or Gore administration, would pursue more humane policies ..."

Right. Don't work for the election of Democrats like Gore, because they and the republicans are all alike anyway.

This is the same problem I have with Chomsky. Let's just sit back and make our perfect structural analyses in which all politicians are both equally evil and yet equally blameless (it's the system after all), and not actually do anything.
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spillthebeans Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. In my opinion Cheney/Rumsfeld
are a special plant of evil

They worked on plans to suspend the constitution even before they were in office.


Plans for detention facilities or camps have a long history, going back to fears in the 1970s of a national uprising by black militants. As Alonzo Chardy reported in the Miami Herald on July 5, 1987, an executive order for continuity of government (COG) had been drafted in 1982 by FEMA head Louis Giuffrida. The order called for "suspension of the Constitution" and "declaration of martial law." The martial law portions of the plan were outlined in a memo by Giuffrida's deputy, John Brinkerhoff.

In 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 188, one of a series of directives that authorized continued planning for COG by a private parallel government.

Two books, James Mann's "Rise of the Vulcans" and James Bamford's "A Pretext for War," have revealed that in the 1980s this parallel structure, operating outside normal government channels, included the then-head of G. D. Searle and Co., Donald Rumsfeld, and then-Congressman from Wyoming Dick Cheney.

After 9/11, new martial law plans began to surface similar to those of FEMA in the 1980s. In January 2002 the Pentagon submitted a proposal for deploying troops on American streets. One month later John Brinkerhoff, the author of the 1982 FEMA memo, published an article arguing for the legality of using U.S. troops for purposes of domestic security.

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/rec.html

Now Cheney admits on tape, being director of the CFR and keeping this information secret from his voters.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x7730

When he mentions Gore or Clinton, we have to keep in mind that obviously Gore won in 2000. Did he act like Obrador?

And then you have News like "Rupert Murdoch Loves Hillary Clinton"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/09/politics/main1600694.shtml


Will there ever be a presidential candidate like Dennis Kucinich for example? Of course not.


Nevertheless, voting incumbents out and new ones in, is a very good strategy. And people should vote even with e-Voting and vote stealing.
And local elections are very important, but people concentrate more on the presidential elections.
Sitting on your hands and doing nothing will certainly bring you closer to the abyss than you think.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. It's also shallow. Whether wholly systemic or not, false flag terrorist
attacks and high level conspiracies are historical facts.
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
34. Umberto Eco addresses
this issue of the conspiracist engageing in the search for God in his magnum opus, Foucaults Pendulum (sorry the comma button is not working). We live in a meaningless and chaotic world and it gives people mental satisfaction believing that there is some magnificently divine power, benevolent or in this case malevolent, pulling the strings. Of course to the religiously inclined, all evidence to the countrary is dismissed (which happens to be the overwhelming evidence, like 9/11) while the smallest seeming inconsistency is jumped upon as unassailable proof.

The more things change, the more things stay the same.

By the way, does anyone else find it wierd to attribute the powers of God to our government? I mean seriously, the Knights Templar were way cooler!
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. The only thing weirder is to attribute the powers of god to 19 foreigners
Edited on Fri Dec-01-06 11:58 PM by John Q. Citizen
from Arabia that nobody really knows if they did 9/11 or not, including our government.

That's really stretching it.

I mean when faced with the choice of who would have the ability and the opportunity, the logical first suspect would be someone in our government over 19 foreigners from Arabia, wouldn't it?

Most homicide detectives know this. They know that the vast overwhelming majority of murders are committed by people who know the victim and who have easy access to the victim.

The shaggy haired stranger is rarely attributed the powers of god.

In this case though, there were no cops, and nobody took a good hard look at the family, friends or neighbors. They went straight to the shaggy haired stranger. Not the greatest detective work, I think.

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G Hawes Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Huh? Powers of god?
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 12:21 AM by G Hawes
What does that mean? What "powers" are you alluding to, and how does it relate to your post? Please explain.

As for the rest of your post...

The "logical suspects" in an investigation are those to whom either a particular modus operandi fits or those to whom the evidence points, with the latter being the stronger. Investigations are not typically about hypotheticals, but about evidence. Homicide investigations only delve into the hypothetical if and when they are stymied due to a lack of actual evidence and a lack of an evidence trail that leads them to identifiable suspects. (Thus the existence of "profilers" and such, but those cases are exceptions, not the rule).

In this case, the evidentiary trail led directly to identifiable suspects, so there was no need to resort to hypotheticals. There was no need to resort to "shaggy haired strangers", and they did not, in fact, resort to "shaggy haired strangers" despite your post that suggests otherwise.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Yeah, that's what they always say. Whatever. Either you get it or you don't.
If you don't, that's your problem.

Good luck and fly straight, Mr. Hawks.

What's the G. stand for?
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. See thats the thing,
for the 19 hijackers to commit the attacks of 9/11 (by the way, your racist characterizing of the hijackers is disconcerting and not particularly helpful), they do not require the powers of God to be invested in them, unlike the shadow government. There is a term in philosophy- the invisble emperor: he knows all and sees all and is his hand is behind all events. Essentially, it is a term ridiculing the belief in the omnipotent Judeo-Christian God. No invisible emperors are needed for the 19 hijacker, official story. They had the desire and the mission to attack the US, and learned enough to carry to execute their plan. Human incompetence and a general failure on the part of those who are supposed to protect us are the reason they succeeded. Covering up mistakes on their own part rather than a conspiracy is self evident. Nothing they did had any supernatural quality to it.

The government conspiracy theory, on the other hand, is the quintessential invisble emperor. Somehow, they rigged all te WTC buildings with explosives unbeknownest to anyone working there (or at least a janitor, just one, not wanting to be complicit in mass murder). Then they shot a missile into the pentagon despite having a perfectly good plane they could have crashed into it and not had to lie about what struck the pentagon (this point always made me laugh). Then they had to hide nearly all evidence and bribe the overwhelming number of witnesses to agree with the main story. All evidence against a divinely powerful government was created by said government to hide its own nature (just like God not giving any evidence of his existence). But a handful of people playing semantics and jumping on miniscule details as proof of the existence of the government-invisible emperor.
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spillthebeans Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Why should people enjoying cocaine and strippers die in a Jihad? nt
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Keep cover
The Hashshashin Ismaili sect (the assassins) used a gnostic argument to engage in seemingly "un-islamic" activities: Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

And if not that there is a simpler explanation: humans are a swirling vortex of inconsistency and contradiction. Some are more than others. Considering the reward for martyrs is 72 virgins in paradise, maybe they were pre-gaming?
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spillthebeans Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. the virgin thing is a media myth
Edited on Sat Dec-02-06 01:58 PM by spillthebeans

it's like buying a round trip ticket at the London bombings 7/7


And on TV they are admitting they were running a drill, like on 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKvkhe3rqtc


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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Considering that there is but one race of humans, the human race, I don't
see your point. It seems to be a reoccurring theme though that people who passionately care if someone else believes 9/11 was an inside job always have to charge racism against those who don't share their opinions and passions. But the whole concept of racism is irrational, since there is only the human race.

If you prefer to believe what your government tells you about 9/11, I don't care. That is your prerogative. Just don't act so surprised that everyone doesn't share your faith. Please don't attempt to define for me why I believe that 9/11 was an inside job. Instead, you would be better off attempting to define why you don't believe 9/11 was an inside job and leave it at that.

Your chances of are much greater getting that right, and are a much less elitist position.

Assuming that you know why I believe 9/11 was an an inside job or that I hold a certain theory of how that inside job was carried out is to ascribe the supernatural power of mind reading to yourself.

I do believe 9/11 was an inside job and I don't believe you are a mind reader. Get over it.
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. You are the one
who dismissed them as "shaggy haired strangers" who could not possibly have been capable of pulling off the attack. Yeah its true that race is a social construct, and it is indeed illogical to think in those terms, but people apparently still do. Not that your description was technically racist, but it does have certain undertones. Although I find Ward Churchill pretty vile, he makes a good point about racism and how it relates to 9/11. You also misrepresent my argument by accusing me of believing anything the government tells me about 9/11. Are they hiding things? Of course, I am not surprised by this and the government has had credibility problems since the dawn of history. But the alternative, that 9/11 was engineered by our government in whatever way, is even less credible (less credible than the government, thats a pretty funny phrase). At least the official story generally makes sense when you take a step back. The conspiracist, pardon the cliche, cannot see the forest for the trees. That is what Cockburn is arguing when he describes his experience with criminal trials.

And your attempt to throw my argument back in my face (ie that I am trying to read your mind so I must be the one engaging in god play) only reinforces my point. 9/11, to the conspiracist, can mean anything or nothing. You might believe in MIHOP or LIHOP or any other clever acronyms. It is all essentially unfalsifiable because nobody knows where the goal posts are and they change depending on the argument. Like religiona nd communism, all contradictory evidence is digested into the 9/11 conspiracy world view and viewed as cover up or plants.

Lets say there is another full investigation and it turns out that none of the alternative theories turn out to be true. It would not matter, because one can always argue that there was a cover up. And so it goes on, and on, and on...
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Knights Templar in Flight School.....
They are still around and they could learn to fly. They're REAL smart. Not like a bunch of dirty Ay-rabs.

This theory needs to be worked out further.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. What does that mean? Seriously.
Certainly, many significant world events just randomly happen rather than being completely orchestrated by TPTB.

However, in the case of 9/11, we are presented with two choices: either we must believe without evidence that a James Bond villain named Osama Bin Laden perpetrated the entire event using his worldwide army of craftily stealthy al Qaeda minions or else we are tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists attributing God-like malevolent powers to our own government because it makes us feel better.

That's life in the Eco chamber of today's "conventional wisdom."
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-02-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Its not that they were that stealthy,
as the chronology of events seemst to suggest. The government was just too stupid to know where to look or when it did have the info, didnt act on it due to a variety bureacratic failings. Not malice of aforethought, just incompetence.
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