Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

9/11 only "make-believe," Iranian government official says

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:06 PM
Original message
9/11 only "make-believe," Iranian government official says

http://rawstory.com/news/2006/9_11_only_make_believe_Ir...


An Iranian government official on Friday accused the US of orchestrating the attacks of September 11, 2001, saying New York's World Trade Center towers were actually blown up by a bomb rather than planes hijacked by terrorists. "What we watched on the TVs regarding the slamming of two planes into the New York Twin Towers, was in fact a make-believe scene," Deputy Culture Minister Mohammad-Hadi Homayoun was quoted by state news agency IRNA as saying, in an address to the Iran-Russia Dialogue among Civilizations Conference in Moscow.

"The sky-scrapers were destroyed through bomb explosions and afterwards the massive US media propaganda and the crusade issue began," the minister said, making reference to the controversial remarks by US President George W Bush outlining a "crusade" against terrorism following the September 11 attacks.
-----------------------------


the whole world knows it was a put-up job
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Holocaust didn't happen either then
Iran says so, and we all know Iran is always right!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm not going to believe a site that's banned here, that's for sure n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Here's some more...
Edited on Sat Oct-28-06 12:47 PM by KansDem
Collapse
Main article: Collapse of the World Trade Center
At 17:20 EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center collapsed. Since it had been evacuated, there were no casualties.

In May 2002, the Federal Emergency Management Agency of the United States (FEMA) released a report on the collapse. <3> FEMA made preliminary findings that the collapse was due primarily to fires on multiple stories caused by debris from the other two towers, and not to the actual impact damage of 1 WTC and 2 WTC as they collapsed. The report noted that, prior to this collapse, there was no record of the fire-induced collapse of a large fire-protected steel building such as 7 WTC.

The report did not reach final conclusions, outlining a number of issues needing to be explored with respect to the cause of the collapse. Specifically, FEMA made these findings:

Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue. (Chapter 5, pg 31.)

In response to FEMA's concerns, the Commerce Departments National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) conducted a three-year, US$24 million investigation into the structural failure and progressive collapse of several WTC complex structures, including 7 World Trade Center. The study included not only in-house technical expertise, but also drew upon the knowledge of several outside private institutions, including the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), the Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), the American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC), the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY).<4>

NIST has released video and still photo analysis of Building 7 prior to its collapse that appears to indicate a greater degree of structural damage from falling debris than originally assumed by FEMA. Specifically, a large 10-story gash existed on the south facade, extending a third across the face of the building and approximately a quarter of the way into the interior.<5> A unique aspect of the design of 7 WTC was that each outer structural column was responsible for supporting 2,000 square feet (186 square meters) of floor space, suggesting that the simultaneous removal of a number of columns would lead to a severely compromised structure. Consistent with this theory, news footage shows visible cracking and bowing of the building's east wall immediately prior to the collapse, which started from the penthouse floors. <5>

The final report from NIST regarding the collapse of 7 WTC was due in July 2005, but is still ongoing.<6> NIST released a progress report in June of 2004 outlining its working hypothesis. On this hypothesis a local failure in a critical column, caused by damage from either fire or falling debris from the collapses of the two towers, progressed first vertically and then horizontally to result in "a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure".<7><8> In answer to the question of whether "a controlled demolition hypothesis is being considered to explain the collapse", NIST says that it "While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, it would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements."<6>

Despite FEMA's preliminary finding that fire caused the collapse, some have presented alternate theories, usually as part of a larger belief in 9/11 conspiracy theories. In support of this belief, they have pointed to the presence of an undercover CIA office in the building<9>, and FEMA's finding that the average debris field radius was approximately 70 feet.<10>


Wikipedia

Don't forget, this is FEMA, the agency that did such a stellar job with Katrina.

How about this?

The Collapse of World Trade Center 7

Allegation: 9/11 Revealed suggests that the 47-story World Trade Center 7 building, which collapsed at 5:20 pm on September 11, was intentionally demolished. The primary piece of evidence for this is a comment that Mr. Larry Silverstein, who owned the World Trade Center complex, made on the September 2002 television documentary American Rebuilds. Mr. Silverstein said:

I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were going to be able to contain the fire. I said, you know, We've had such terrible loss of life that the smartest thing to do is just pull it. And they made that decision to pull it and we watched the building collapse.

9/11 Revealed and other conspiracy theorists put forward the notion that Mr. Silversteins suggestion to pull it is slang for intentionally demolishing the WTC 7 building.


usinfo.state.gov

Sounds like it was "pulled" or brought down with explosives. It sure looks like it from the video...

And please direct me to the link of DU's banned-websites directory so I don't make this error in the future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. but you believe the bush administration?
Edited on Sun Oct-29-06 12:50 PM by mirandapriestly
wow it only took someone a minute to come up with an anti semite comparision, they are getting better at this!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. No, not a put-up job. A crime allowed to happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. agree - allowed to happen with a little help
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow! Iran will give the 9/11 truth movement credibility!
Not. Oh right, there were NO planes at all. This does so much for those that have real questions about a zillion other things. UGH.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. they don't say there were no planes, they said the planes didn't do it

bombs in the bldgs. did it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wait, so they think the planes were CGI?
The Iranians are on the fringe of the fringe...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is everyone
in Iran totally nuts? Apparently so. (sigh)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. no, just everyone in power
That country is a classic example of the inmates running the asylum. At least the people are getting fed up. Hopefully they'll deal with that current batch of crazies like they did with the Shah.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Sounds like America: everyone in power is nuts.
eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Just the people with the microphones. NT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. The planes were just distractors.. bombs blew up inside the building
which lead to a collapse of the building. If anyone on this site does not realize by now that 9/11 was the new Pearl Harbor by now, get out of the way and let Bush and his cronies continue to walk all over you.

I am not sure what this will look like. But there is enough mounting evidence against the offical white house lie about 9/11 to doubt what is going on. My husband a die-hard republican "I love Bush" has enough doubts now to realize why my activism is so important to me. So if a die hard Bush-bot can accept the information, I don't understand why this site cannot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Because all the 9/11 conspiracy theories I've seen are like fundie creationist theories
When there's a big hole in the logic, they just invent a new angle to close that hole with no evidence. Both are equal loads of bullshit as far as I'm concerned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. do butterflys have blood?
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. It's a reference to a personal thing
but not relevant to the topic at hand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Its odd you pick a metomorphic creature to reference your screen
name. A butterfly begins as a larva.. it morphs into a beautiful creature... And blood is our life force... so I hope you many pleasures on your journey.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Which hole do you need filled????
Maybe a true indepedent investigation is needed to find out exactly what happened.... That's mainly what people are asking for now like the Jersey Girls... Here's how is goes "If we're nuts, prove us nuts, prove anything..." There documentary that came out on 9/11 was great.

I think its valid. Disprove the theories.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
59. How about proving your theories....
So far I have seen zero evidence for the 9/11 theories presented thus far. All I have gotten is distortions and speculations accompained by a cleverly edited video. A coincidence does not automatically translate into conspiracy.

If you make extraordinary claims, then be prepared to present extraordinary evidence. In other words, if you want the American public to believe the theories then present your Ellsbergs/Mark Felts in goverment and present evidence that the buildings were not brought down by dislodged fire proofing, structural damage, and fire.

Face it, every single 9/11 "truth" allegation has been debunked several times. And the most science I've seen from the CT movement is a man lighting a rabbit hutch on fire. They ARE like the Creationists because instead of testing a theory they twist the facts in order to fit it.

Here are three sites that disprove your theories for example:

http://www.debunking911.com/index.html
http://wtc.nist.gov /
http://www.911myths.com

Of course anyone that does debunk 9/11 theories is dismissed as being a goverment shill, disinfo agent ,actively complicit in the plot (take the Naudets for example), or condescendenly looked upon as a person needing to be "enlightened", "woken up" (which is just as bad as a Christian thinking I need to be "saved"), etc.. According to a CT, it is impossible to question goverment and believe the official story. Which of course is rubbish. I want facts, not faith.

Sometimes a cigar is simply a cigar.

Bush has already done enough to merit criticism and removal. You don't need to make shit up. And he didn't need 9/11 to start another war in Iraq. Apparently many have forgotten the propaganda that got us into Operation Desert Storm. No terror attack necessary.

Is the Bush administration:

Incompetent? Yes
Stonewalling on releasing information? Yes
Covering their ass? Yes
Shortsighted in their foreign policy? Yes

However that in itself is not proof that the administration had anything to do with the attacks. Spinning the aftermath into a temporary advantage is also not proof of complicity.

Furthermore the CIA's presence in WTC7 does not prove conspiracy. They already have things like burn bags for secret document disposal. Secret documents raining down on Manhattan is not a good way to keep them secret.

It's exactly like the cranks during Clinton's presidency that thought that the UN was going to take over the country: black helicopters, the backs of road signs barcoded so that the UN troops could navigate, taking away all the guns, dissenters herded into camps, etc.

Or how about Mena Arkansas?? Clinton body count...it goes on and on.

Even if there were an independent investigation it wouldn't be enough to satisfy the conspiracy theorists. There will always be something "wrong". While there are still questions, I don't think that they merit another investigation at this time.

I do think that if the Democrats retake Congress then pressure can be applied to open up some of those sealed records. And that's a good thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. What is the official U.S. Government version other than a
bullshit conspiracy theory?

The military was either told to stand down, or we have the crappiest armed services in the world.



The truth may never come out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. If you don't like the theories, try dealing with a few facts:


1. 200 out of the 300 questions posed by the 9/11 widows were ignored.
Only 27 of the 300 were adequately answered.

2. NORAD has had 7 different accounts of its actions that day.

3. There was no effective air defense for 100 minutes on 9/11.

4. The WTC steel was destroyed lickety split--over protest of
Fire Enginering Magazine, which warned that this would make FEMA's
investigation of the collapse "a half-baked farce" and the protests
of the families and the firemen, who objected to the descration of
the remains.

5. NIST's report on the WTC7 collapse was due last December. They
still haven't released it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
50. The evangelicals help to push the official 911 story
in a big way. Two of the mainstream media documentaries which pushed the OCT were produced by evangelicals. There is a team of 911 "survivors" who had rather incredible stories (ie they were on the floor where the plane "landed" in the wtc right next to them) are now making their rounds on the evangelical lecture circuit, there are several threads on it in this forum.
Your arguments are very weak and not based on fact which is funny cuz that is what you are accusing the other side of.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Time to REframe calling it "the official 911 story".

Giving it the descriptor "Official" gives it a certain cachet it doesn't deserve. I don't have a specific idea for a new description, but smarter people than myself could come up with something most of US would probably approve of. What do YOU THINK, Ms. M.P.?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. well, maybe "official conspiracy theory" , which we've had all along, but
that insinuates that all versions of 9-11 are conspiracy theories, and still uses "official" so I dunno. Who DID come up with the theory exactly? the PNAC theory? or the neocon theory?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. If the Gov't's story was true, then OBL et al. conspired to take certain

illegal actions that would benefit certain people and interests (a criminal conspiracy). Boosh and company should be charged under the RICO statutes, in my opinion. Then the Impeachment should take place, followed by a visit to the Hague for an appearance before the World Court for crimes against humanity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. I heard today that there 1000 subpoenas during
the Clinton administration from the GOP congress to the Clinton WH. How many subpoena's have there been to the Bush WH from the same Congress? ......ZERO. That ought to tell you something. (that I'm sure you already know, but it is illustrative)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Just curious...
If you really believe in MIHOP or LIHOP, why are you still living here? If I actually believed that my own government purposely MURDERED 3,000 of my fellow citizens for political/economic gain and then covered it up, I would be on the next bus to Canada. Any reasonable person would.

Would you live in Stalin's USSR? Hitler's Germany? Kim Jung Il's NK? (3,000 dead in a single day would be impressive even for those monsters.) Of course not, you would get the hell out of there the first chance you got. So why live in evil Bush's AmeriKa if he kills thousands of innocent Americans for political gain?

Know what I think? You don't really believe MIHOP, you just think it's fun to play fantasy world while the rest of us live in reality.

Seriously, how many candidates you are voting for on Nov. 7th actually agree with your theories? Probably none. Most of them would probably think you're a moron. Not trying to insult you, it's just a fact.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Why are you parroting Tucker Carlson's illogical idiocy?
Not only is your argument among the most illogical and unconvincing OCT arguments I've ever read, but it is a direct talking point of Tucker Carlson. He's the only person I've ever heard make the argument that if you believe in LIHOP/MIHOP, your only choice is to leave the country.

Well actually not. When I was younger, I lived in South Africa during the late apartheid era when it was clear that the government was guilty of horrific crimes, both at home and in neighboring countries. Not a single South African friend I knew, even victims of torture and detention, reasoned that if these crimes were occurring, they should leave. They were patriots who wanted to stay and take back their country.

So I assume that most of the people on this forum who believ in LIHOP/MIHOP reason that if it is true, the only alternative is to keep getting at the truth and use the truth to dispose of the Bush administration to the dust bin of history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. I had no idea Tucker Carlson used that line of logic.
I came up with that on my own after reading some of the posts I've seen on DU.

It's not supposed to be an argument against MIHOP or in support of OCT. I use it because I beleive many of the conpiracy theorists don't really believe this BS, it's just a "fun" distraction from reality.

In my opinion, if you REALLY TRULY believe MIHOP, then you would also have to believe that the US government is pure murderous evil, comparable to Hitler and Stalin. Hell, comparable to Darth Vader.

Yet, these same people aren't exactly fleeing the country. They aren't scared of black helicopters coming to take them away. They aren't afraid of the NEXT government organized 9-11 killing them or their families. They aren't afraid of being sent to Gitmo. They seem to be staying right here in the US. I guess they aren't really THAT concerned, IE, they don't believe their own theories.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nozebro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Define "conspiracy theorist". Sounds like Booshco's lies that OBL & 19

M.E. cokeheads got together in a secret cave in Arf Arfghanistan, did a few lines of nose cohen candy and came up with the idea of doing 9/11, in order to accomplish their long-time goal of helping RWing politicians and rich Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. You're alleging the most complicated,
murderous, perfect, evil, world changing conspiracy in world history. That makes you a conspiracy theorist. Burden of proof is on the accuser. Prove it.

I love the "muslims in caves" couldn't do 9-11 argument. It conveniently ignores the millions of dollars from OBL, the eyewitnesses who aided the terrorists in their flight training, the surveillance video from the airports of them boarding the planes etc.

Not to mention that there are phone calls placed from the planes describing exactly what happened, Angry Muslims with a fake bomb and knives took over a plane and crashed it into some buildings.

Oh wait, but you "truthers" claim it was government voice replication software that called their families and described the events.

What is sooooooooo complicated about that? There was nothing overly technical or complicated about the mission they carried out. They scared the shit out of some passengers, took over some jets, and used their training to crash the jets into enormous towers. Any group of dedicated/homicidal terrorists could have reached their 75% success rate. Try microsoft flight simulator sometime. Taking off and landing are tough, crashing into buildings with hundreds of hours of flight training wouldn't be too much trouble. And even then only 3 of 4 reached their target.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spigot Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. The government has said 19 men and OBL did it
They are accusing them of the crime. THEY HAVEN'T PROVED IT. Use your own logic, smart guy.

Also, just a simple question. Why didn't any of the hijackers appear on the flight manifests?? How did they get on the plane without tickets??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spigot Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. I explained why that's the case
Living overseas isn't any safer, really. The U.S. dominates the whole world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #33
61. Rock bottom
First of all, I have to say, of all the arguments I've heard from official conspiracy theory apologists, yours are absolutely the least convincing, the worst, most illogical and transparently troll-like. Your arguments make me nostaligic about the days when OCTers like Lared and others actually debated the available facts. As far as I can tell, looking over your posts, your only argument is conclusive, circular ad hominem, and goes something like this: "People who argue for 9/11 truth are conspiracy theorists; conspiracy theoriests are crazy; therefore the 9/11 truth movement are crazy." That's about all you offer.

You are also conflating lots of different alternative theories together, which is a common rhetorical tactic of vehement defenders of the official story. There may be a researcher like Paul Thompson, who has meticulously constructed a time line based mainstream media sources that conclusively shows that the official story is wrong; there may be a researcher like Daniel Hopsicker who has demonstrated through first person interviews that the hijackers were nothing like the pious Muslims the official story portrayed them to be and had connections to cocain traffickers; but because you read somewhere that someone believes no planes flew into the Pentagon, then everyone believes that. And therefore you can dismiss all 9/11 reasearch. That's basically your argument.

You also assume that if "the government" was involved in 9/11, then it is pure evil and everyone must leave the country. How utterly bizarre. The truth movement suggests that rogoue elements within the intelligence, defense and/or private intelligence networks have been involved. That doesn't mean that your local post office supervisor is pure evil.

Why would the murder of 3,000 people make the entire government pure evil? After all, we saw the Bush administration murder, through neglect, through failure to deliver food, water, medicine or to evacuate people, several thousand people in New Orleans and it was on national television, day after day. Why haven't you fled to Canada? We've seen the Bush administration cause a war that has killed 600,000 Iraqi civilians and 2,700 soldiers and marines for no good strategic reason. Why haven't you fled to Mexico?

So here's a challenge to you. This is what I think is the most convincing evidence of government complicity, based on mainstream media sources.

The 9/11 Commission claims that the only state sponsor of the hijackers was Afghanistan's Taliban government. But mainstream media sources reported in 2001 that the hijackers received funding from Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence, it's version of the CIA. The head of the ISI was Lt. Gen. Mahmoud Ahmad. It has been well documented that he ordered $100,000 be sent to Mohammed Atta (although there are differing accounts of exactly when the money was sent).

Lt. Gen. Mahmoud Ahmad, the financier of the 9/11 attacks, flew to Washington, DC, on September 4, 2001, and had meetings with top officials of the CIA, Pentagon, National Security Council and State Department. On the morning of September 11, 2001, as the planes flew into the towers, Gen. Ahmad, the financier of the hijackers, was meeting with Porter Goss, a former CIA officer, and at the time a Republican representative and chair of the House Intelligence Committee, and soon to be named head of the CIA. Goss later told the press that he and Ahmad were discussing terrorism generated in Afghanistan.

So tell me how you can reconcile the official story with the fact of the financier of the hijackings meeting with leading defense and intelligence officials of the Bush administration?

Why is it that I don't expect an answer from you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hpot Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Let's discuss the facts
Edited on Sat Oct-28-06 01:53 PM by hpot
Maybe you can amaze us with your powerful analytical skills besides weak attacks. It took me a lot of research before agreeing with the 'False Flag Operation' hypothesis and I still do not want to believe it.

The evidence is available for anyone willing to watch. Here are the videos I recommend:


9/11 Press For Truth
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=558909910425507...

9/11 - 2/1/2006 BYU Professor Steven E Jones WTC Lecture UVSC
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408...

911 Eyewitness Hoboken Highlights
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=649807020487057...

911 Mysteries
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-81722719553081...

Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=900707975435571...

TerrorStorm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-59482636075793...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spigot Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Assuming you actually want a response...
...(which I know you don't given your attitude, but here it is anyway):

Where would I be safest?? In a country where the government murdered 3,000 people to generate momentum towards overseas invasions?? Or in another country where these invasions may well take place??

It's a tough call, and I've considered all options.

Canada and Mexico are cooperating with the U.S. because they have to, and they are cooperating militarily and through intelligence gathering. We will have international highways from Mexico to Canada before long. I don't see any big differences between living in both places, except that here my taxes directly fund the overseas invasions. However, here (assuming my vote is counted), I actually have some small say as to who is in government.

Europe is probably the most appealing option, but unfortunately I only speak English so my options are limited. England isn't any better than here; Ireland may as well be England (Global warming and the slowing of the gulf stream also worry me in this case). One very appealing measure to Europe is the Euro, though, which will eventually be much stronger than the dollar. I've considered Croatia and other Meditteranean nations as a possibility, but I would need to learn the language first.

Austrailia has a very conservative government like ours, but it is out of the way and so, if a nuclear war broke out, it would likely be the best place to be. This is another option.

South America, Africa, and Asia are all bad choices. Places like Brazil and Venezuela are appealing in that they are self-sufficient in regards to their energy, so a U.S. takeover of the Persian Gulf doesn't really affect them. However, as we've seen the U.S. is not unwilling to support coups in these areas when it suits them, and is willing to support the killing of civilians.

Africa, in certain parts, is subject to U.S. involvement because of oil and natural gas. Other parts are very poor, and its generally an unpleasant place to live.

The middle east, we know what's going on there. China and Russia both have wealthy areas, but both are subject to American whims. They will only get the oil we allow them to have, and eventually conflict may arise.

Japan is our ally, but they are very dependent on foreign oil, and I don't speak the language, again.

So, to answer your question (finally), I've decided that my best bet is to stay here, for now. I'm still pursuing my education, and once I graduate I may leave. The best place to go, I think, is a country bordering the Meditteranean, like Italy, Spain, Croatia, or something like that. The destruction of the gulf stream won't affect these countries as much, and they generally have arable land good for farming and living in a self-sufficient way. I would have the learn the language first, and would like to have a contact in the area.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Seen the light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
20. LOL! Such yummy propaganda nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Klimmer Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. Iran simply sees what anyone who looks into 9-11 sees . . .
Edited on Sat Oct-28-06 12:52 PM by Klimmer
That 9-11 was a false flag-op designed to allow the BCF and the Rethug Neo-con Criminal Administration to get everything it wanted: pre-emptive war, war profiteering, strip the US Constitution and Bill of Rights of all civil rights against the US citizenry, big oil reserves, the list goes on and on.

You think 19 hi-jackers with box knives could have done all that was done on 9-11-01? That is the most absurd Official Conspiracy Theory (OCT) I have ever heard. Yet it is published by our very own government under the title "The 9-11 Commission Report." The document is a total whitewash and book of lies.

Those who know and have looked into it with a critical eye know the truth of the matter. The jets didn't take down the WTC towers, nor did any jet take down WTC tower 7. What ultimately took down the towers on 9-11 was controlled demolition (CD). The jets were just shock and awe, patsies. And something else hit the Pentagon other than flight AA77.

Wake-up and learn the truth of the matter or perhaps you will be the last to know, and the last to be an OCT apologist. Get a brain.

Edit: obviously my post is directed towards those who believe the OCT, not 9-11 truthers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. See post #23
Answer my question.

Also, lets run down the list of people who agree with you errr...."truthers"

1. Iran. Nuff said.
2. Charlie Sheen. Because he's sane.
3. Arab propaganda machine, who also claim Jews drink the blood of gentiles and use it in their matzo.
4. Cartman from South Park.
5. Many people from the Middle East, which is the most educated and logical part of the world. :eyes:
6. Some professor in Wisconsin.
7. You.

Great company you keep there. By the way, how many of the candidates you are voting for next week would agree with your theories? Let me help you...none. Most of them would probably think you're a moron. That's not me insulting you, that's just the reality of the situation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Klimmer Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Perhaps when you are willing to discuss facts . . .
without resulting in calling grouping people and calling them nuts or insane if they disagree with you, then maybe you'll be ready to hear the answer.

I love this country. I was born here. I served in the US Army Honor Guard. I do not shrink away from a fight. I took an oath to defend this country and to defend the constitution on which this ounce great country was built and founded on from foreign and domestic enemies.

Any time you want to talk facts without rosorting to personal attacks, then I and many here will discuss it with you.

Until then you are not ready to hear the truth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. a few other people who doubt the OCT
Paul Craig Roberts, Former Assistant Secretary of Treasury under Reagan
Andreas Von Buelow, former German Secretary of Defense
General Anatoly Kornukov, Commander in Chief of the Russian Air Force
Paul Hellyer, former Canadian Minister of National Defense
Dr. Robert Bowman, United States Air Force (Retired), Archbishop, United Catholic Church
Dr. Johannes Koeppl, a former German Defense Ministry official and NATO advisor
Michael Meacher, British MP, Environmental Minister from May 1997 to June 2003

....

And speaking only for myself, I did move to Canada. Applied in 2003, moved mid-2005. And thrilled that my tax dollars (which are lower than they were in the US) are no longer paying for the US's war crimes.

However, my path is not for everyone. I do not subscribe to the silly "love it or leave it" theory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. if you don't reply to the responses to your questions,
what's the point of repeating your questions?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. If I were Arab...I would be extremely offended by what you said:
Edited on Sun Oct-29-06 06:12 AM by seatnineb
In the fuckin' sarcastic words of India:

Many people from the Middle East, which is the most educated and logical part of the world.

Keep your bullshit sarcastic prejudice to yourself.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Fine, I'll say it again.
The Middle East is one of the most backward places on planet Earth. It's anti-jew, anti-women, anti-gay, anti-rational thought. Can you really argue to the contrary?

I hate to generalize too much, because there are certainly exceptions, but for the most part, it's true.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Judaism just happens to be a middle eastern religion.

It's origins can be traced to what is now Modern day Iraq and Egypt.

And yes.....

There are regimes/goverments/monarchies in the current middle east that are anti-gay,anti-women and anti-rational thought..... these same regimes /goverments/monarchies that just happen to be funded/armed and protected by the good ol'U.S of A aswell as a host of other "civilized" nations.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Israel is by FAR the most modern and tolerant counrty
in the Middle East. It's quite the anomaly compared to its neighbors. I don't think you'll see gay pride parades marching down the streets of Damascus or Tehran anytime soon.

And yes I agree, funding these backwards countries with our oil dollars is extremely unsettling. We seem willing to "look the other way" in exchange for $2.00 gas. Just another reason we need to find an alternative energy source or find oil in more stable/rational parts of the world. Russia and Central Asia seem promising, although I'd much prefer we switch to a homegrowm renewable resource such as ethanol.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. So Israel's dealings with apartheid South Africa and the brutal Salvador
Edited on Sun Oct-29-06 01:31 PM by seatnineb
.....goverment aswell as their "aid" with Honduras,Haiti,Nicaragua and Guatamala amongst others should be forgotten....

Yes....Israel are tolerant within their own society....but like other "civilized" nations.....they don't hesitate to fuck around with others.......just ask the Palestinians or the Lebanese.

Besides are not Israeli Arabs and North Africans second class citizens in Israel?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. I find your ethnocentric and racial profiling disturbing. Your mission
to bring civilization to the dark masses in the Middle East, as your tax dollars pay to keep their monarchs in power and weapons, is reminiscent of the "White Mans Burden," England's rationalization for colonization of India and Africa.

It also echos quite closely the neoconservative line of rationalization, that killing 10s of thousands (conservatively) of Arabs is somehow doing them a favor.

Humans are one race, the human race. We all have the capacity to act with great compassion and also to act with great brutality. No matter where on the planet we might be. That goes for all of us.

There aren't any bad guys, (in terms of ethnicity) there's just a bunch of guys. Some of them are assholes and some aren't. Most people just want to have enough to feed their selves and their families, play a game of soccer or chess in the park once in a while, to feel that they have a place in the community where they live, and to see their families thrive. It's the same all over.

Take a look in the mirror and think about it a little bit before you react, okay?



By the way, have you voted in the 9/11 poll here in the forum yet? I didn't see any remarks in their from you as to your #1 reason you don't believe 9/11 was an inside job. I won't demean you just because we disagree. Please share since we all inhabit this bit of cyber space together, if you choose.

Peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I never said I wanted to bring civilization to the ME.
Quite the contrary. I'd much rather pull all our troops and money out of the region and let them kill/oppress whoever they want without involving the west, much like we did with Somalia. We, (UN and the West) tried to help that country, and in return we had little kids and women cheering while dragging dead US troops through the streets. Sorry Somalia, some people are beyond help. Have a nice life. Same to many in the ME. Beyond help. Let them do what they want to do, i.e, kill each other, hate the jews, oppress women, establish iron fist Islamic states etc. Have a good time! I don't want to be involved! Do whatever it is you do in the name of "allah."

The reason terrorism is flourishing in that region can all be traced back to oil money from the west. Every time you fill up your tank, some Arab government gets richer and in turn finances "Mohammed's Super Duper Martyr Allah Arab Death to Israel Brigade" or whatever terrorist organization is in vogue toward killing Jews and Westerners.

Unfortunately, the oil in the region makes pulling out of the region impossible right now. Like it or not, the ME is extremely important to our economy and way of life.

Which brings me back to my main point. 1. Find an alternative energy source or stable oil rich region to develop (Russia?). 2. Pull all our troops and $ out of the ME. Maybe without outside influence Islam can go through an enlightened reformation era and be on par with the rest of the civilized world in a 100 years or so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Yes, there are two kinds of people in this world. One kind thinks
there are two kinds of people in this world. The rest of us know better. I'm guessing you are one of the former.

You live in a fantasy world my friend.

To you it's all just those mean old Moslem's fault. Before you came up with your great modern idea it was the mean old Jews fault, and don't forget those pesky African ex-slaves who made life so tough on the good people of the US for being in our country.

Now I realize why you so badly want to discourage and disparage all this talk about a false flag operation, never mind the facts. It is directly in conflict with your bigoted world view. It has to be those 19 basket case arab hijackers and our old disgruntled employee, Osama, and no one else because any other analysis of the event would directly confront your fantasy view of who is good, who is bad, and it's all just black and white to you.

Never mind posting your #1 reason you think 9/11 wasn't an inside job. It's clear. It's because Arabs and Islam are evil, in your analysis. End of story, right?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Not at all.
American Muslims are peaceful, hard working, and well integrated into our society. Muslims in South East Asia are great too. Islam is a perfectly fine religion. It isn't the religion that's the problem, it's the culture. People confuse the two. Unfortunately, the "culture warriors" of the Middle East use their religion to brainwash the populace into believing their backward ways are godly and pleasing to Allah. (I took a four credit course on Islam in college, so I know what I'm talking about. That's also where I fist encountered my first MIHOPer in 2003. He was a muslim professor from a nearby college.)

The Middle Eastern culture, in most countries, is extremely fucked up and WRONG. Being anti-gay, anti-jew, anti-woman is WRONG. Mutilating female genitalia is WRONG. Not allowing women to drive cars or vote is WRONG. Death sentences for adulterers is WRONG. Honor killings are WRONG. Teaching children to hate jews and glorify suicide bombers is WRONG. As Bill Maher says, "Don't be so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance."

I think you and many others on DU may be guilty of that. I'm not a bigot, I'm a realist. Real progressives wouldn't defend an obviously bigoted, oppressive and flawed culture.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spigot Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. There's a timeline for everything
Would you try to introduce democracy to a group of cavemen??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Please don't reply to any more of my posts.
It's like arguing with my 11 year old cousin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. "The Middle East is one of the most backward places on planet Earth. "
Baloney.

Iran, before the fall of the Shah, had one of the highest levels of education
in the world.

Iraq did too, before the overthrow of Saddam.

Yes, they were dictatorships, but they were NOT backward.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Spigot Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. We've conveniently made them backward
It helps our thirst for oil to have them be backward.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Sure dude, whatever you say.
Edited on Sun Oct-29-06 05:04 PM by India3
Anti-Jew, anti-women, anti-secular government, anti-west, anti-gay doesn't make a region backward? Suicide bombings, state sanctioned beheadings and stonings, honor killings, FGM, Islamic law doesn't make a region backward? Give me a break.

We're talking about a region of the world where hundreds of thousands rioted, destroyed property (embassies and western stores/restaurants) and killed each other over FUCKING DANISH CARTOONS. That's not backward?

Besides some parts of Africa, I can't think of a worse place to live on this planet. Would you really want to live in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq (now or during Saddam), Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan? I would HOPE not. And if you happen to be gay, female or Jewish, (or non-muslim for that matter) fugghedaboutit.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #47
62. You are talkin' bullshit...

Iran have 1 Jewish politician in their parliament....

And there are 20000 Iranian Jews in Iran even if they are disciminated against......


Jews have been living in Iran in large numbers since Cyrus the Great freed them from slavery when he captured Babylon in 539BC. Members of the Jewish community in Iran today, for the most part, keep a low profile and many Iranians are unaware of their presence. Mr Motamed said there were about 14,000 Jews in Tehran, which has 20 active synagogues, 6,000 to 7,000 in Shiraz; 2,000 in Estafan and small groups scattered throughout the rest of the country.

He confirmed that Jews and other minorities were excluded from "sensitive" posts in the military and judiciary. And the authorities refuse to allow Jewish schools to close on the sabbath. But Mr Motamed said there had been improvements in other areas. Legislation introduced three years ago overturned a judicial practice of awarding more compensation to families of Muslim accident victims than to those of Jews. And when he complained in the Majlis about a TV soap regularly portraying rabbis as evil, he said the Speaker, Mehdi Karubi, had expressed support.


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=1049...


But then again if you are an Arab jew and you live in Israel....you still get shafted.......


Nor will it address the internal racism and hierarchy that afflicts the institution of Israeli citizenship, where Arab Israelis, including Arab Jews, Christians, and Muslims, suffer second class status, and where the income levels between Ashkenazi and Mizrahim continue to be stark and unjust, and where the founding narratives and the dominant culture are derived from the Aliyah from Europe.
http://www.logosjournal.com/butler.htm


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-31-06 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #47
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Jul 30th 2014, 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC