I am amazed this topic is still not allowed in GD

[Quixote1818]

I have to admit that I was one of the people who thought you all were totally NUTS, just last week. Here is how I came to change my mind:

1. Talking to three people I have met in the last year who seemed like reasonable people tell me they believed the buildings were brought down by explosives.

2. Seeing the professor argue with Sean Hannity talking about the science of this issue on a U-Tube video two days ago.

3. Running into a U-Tube video about the problems with the official story of what happened at the Pentagon.

4. Links at U-Tube that took me to the sites that expose all this stuff.

5. Watching this video:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/August2006/210806E...

That was the path that brought me over to this side of the debate. Now that I see how much debate is really going on with this issue in Academia across the country as well as what polls are saying about this. I am amazed DU is still not allowing this to be a discussing topic on GD. I am about the hardest person to convince about conspiracy theory's and here I am today. Now it's time to spread the word!

[helderheid]

1. And yet election fraud threads aren't moved to election reform.

And I agree they shouldn't, just as these threads shouldn't be moved here.

[Quixote1818]

2. I am wondering if they want to wait until after the elections before

allowing this to move into GD and for Democratic politicians to start bringing this up. A lot of people are not ready for this yet. Once we take control of congress shit might start hitting the fan all over the place!

[helderheid]

3. good point - timing is everything

[Nozebro]

6. Don't hold your breath, because that isn't going to happen.

Other than Cynthia McKenney, I can't think of any other well-known Democrat that has even gotten their little toe "wet" as far as questioning the 9/11 False Flag attacks. Both major parties are supported by the same special interest groups and it is NOT in any of their interests to question things like 9/11.

Since the above is true, it is NOT realistic to expect any change in the policies & practices of "mainstream" web sites...not matter what the site is called.

[HamdenRice]

11. Maybe not true -- Patrick Leahy

It could be construed as ambiguous, but last week or the week before, Leah said about 9/11 in an interview something like, "why did they let it happen."

I suspect he is cautiously LIHOP. Dennis Kucinich has also made LIHOPy comments. I suspect many Dem leaders believe in LIHOP/MIHOP, but don't want to alienate those people who believe anyone who questions the official story is nuts.

[Nozebro]

14. Give an example of how LIHOP is a realistic concept re: 9/11

I'd be interested in hearing your view on how it is possible for there to be such a thing as LIHOP.

[meganmonkey]

7. Actually, I tend to think that the people are a lot readier than

the Dem politicians are.

I attend a daily (anti-war) protest in my town, and when we started doing this (last April) there was a woman who stood with us and passed out flyers she had made about 911, with links to some of the 911 truth sites. At first I thought 'Oh crap, everyone is going to think that's what we are about and write us off as kooks', but in reality, a shocking number of people were already aware of the alternate theories or were very open to the idea that this was at least LIHOP if not MIHOP

[Ezlivin]

4. Check out "9/11 Mysteries" for a thorough discussion of CD

I've watched all of the 9/11 videos and none of them have been so thorough as the "9/11 Mysteries Part 1: Demolitions" was.

It has eyewitness testimony and lots of footage from the day that you probably have not seen. The discussion is rational and the narration is done by a woman which seems to make it more "accessible" to the public.

Check it out here: http://www.911weknow.com/911-mysteries-movie.html

I do believe the tide is turning. Let's hope we can get another investigation opened!

[Quixote1818]

5. Thanks!!! nt

[whistle]

8. It is the source that keeps bringing this material over to the "dungeon"

...in this case Alex Jones

[RedSock]

10. nope -- you are wrong

The mods will move anything that sounds like a conspiracy to the dungeon.

You could include a link in your post to the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, Time ... it doesn't matter.

Float some theory that isn't "proven" and boom -- to the dungeon you go.

[reprehensor]

9. Here's some good readin'

Transcript: "The 9/11 Commission Report One Year Later - A Citizens' Response: Did the Commission Get it Right?" (Briefing, July 22, 2005)

http://www.house.gov/mckinney/20050722transcript.pdf

(Definitely download and save it for later.)

[HamdenRice]

12. Maybe it's not allowed because of people like you -- or like you were

Just a week ago, you thought anyone who believed in LIHOP/MIHOP was completely nuts? Then I'm sure you helped shout down 9/11 discussion in GD and contribute to the ostrich-like posture of the DU community.

My son, you need to do penance. Three Hail Mary's, an Our Father, and 2 hours reading Paul Thompson's cooperativeresearch.org 9/11 timeline.

I wouldn't obsess over CD if you have just had your mind opened. The evidence of intelligence and financial connections between the 9/11 plotters and rogue elements of our government is much, much stronger than evidence of CD. In other words, at the end of the day, you may find you have doubts about CD and rejoin the other side. But if you look into Pakistan's ISI, its connections to the hijackers and our intelligence community, if you look into the connections of Mohammed Atta in Florida, you will find an almost iron-clad case against the OCT.

[Quixote1818]

29. I was most certainly that way

I remember seeing video of Building 7 at GD several years ago and saying it was fake. I really had very little evidence to base my decision on either. It just seemed too far out to believe.

[vincent_vega_lives]

13. Poles show 20% of Americans

still believe the Moon Landing Hoax conspiracy. I'm sure it was much higher back in the 1980s.

This CT has grown much quicker and wider due to the internet. I'm sure this CT will get bigger before it plateaus. No matter how much debunking I'm sure this CT will endure in some circles for eternity, but mainstream numbers will eventually dwindle.

[Nozebro]

15. You want a crazy CT? Saying OBL & Co. outfoxed the U.S. is a crazy CT

This CT that has been promoted by the Government, the corporate media, right-wingers on the internet, and various disinformation/PR specialists has been in full force for five years, yet more and more people are coming to realize just how absurd it is to think that a man who lives in a cave and who has ties to the CIA and the bush family, could have pulled off a massive strike against the U.S. on 9/11 is more than crazy. It's a hoax.

[vincent_vega_lives]

16. I know the "OCT" right

1. various disinformation/PR specialists. When you have to resort to that claim, you know you are dealing with a true believer.

2. He did'nt live in a cave until the US Military forced him to. Even now I doubt he is living in a cave.

3. Osama's CIA "ties" are more like the "6 degrees of separation" game.

4. I wouldnt call 19 hijackers who's resources consisted of flight training, plane tickets and box cutters a "massive strike".

[Nozebro]

17. Can you substantiate ANY of those claims? If so, let's see it.

nt

[vincent_vega_lives]

18. Interesting

You ask for substantiations for refutations of YOUR claims, without substantiating your own.

[Nozebro]

20. You haven't refuted ANYTHING. You've just made silly claims/charges

nt

[vincent_vega_lives]

21. Silly Claims 1-4

1. "This CT that has been promoted by the Government, the corporate media, right-wingers on the internet, and various disinformation/PR specialists..."

2. "...yet more and more people are coming to realize just how absurd it is to think that a man who lives in a cave and who has ties to the CIA and the bush family..."

3. "...could have pulled off a massive strike against the U.S. on 9/11..."

4. It's a hoax.

[Nozebro]

22. Amazing that there are people who get paid to promote those claims.

Of course I'm not referring to you. Who the H--- would pay someone to promote claims like those?

[Chomp]

23. Bwahahahahahaha!

Because outfoxing the US is SO hard, right? Don't make me laugh.

At present, the following groups are all outfoxing the US: the Taliban, the Mujahadeen, the Iraqi Sunni malitias, the Mahdi Army, the Iraqi Bin Ladanists/AQ types, the Baathists, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Iran, Cuba...In other words, just about every enemy the US has.

Jesus man, a bunch of looney terrorists getting past criminally incometant/negligent US defences is by far the most believable explanation.

[Nozebro]

24. So you think the U.S. is wasting billions each yr. on defense & intel. agencies?

BTW - did you intentionally leave off the GOP, corporate America, and the MSM?

[Chomp]

28. ?

Q1. No
Q2. I have no idea what you mean



Thanks.

[vincent_vega_lives]

19. You think?

Wes Clark believes this BS?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nozebro]

26. Thanks for your thoughtful, reasonable post. I agree 100%. Do you think

maybe there might be something else besides fear of how the public might react to the truth (never mind that the public...most of whom are hopelessly ignorant about the world and are too stupid to care, anyhow) that explains DU's policy with regard to this issue?

[mirandapriestly]

31. well, I can't say what I really think

of course, but you can read between the lines .

[Nozebro]

32. Oh, come on MP. You can be honest with US, can't you?

You make it sound like we're in "tear down this wall" East Germany, where the truth is found by reading and knowing how to interpret _____what's______ between the lines.

Yes, I understand fully.

[mirandapriestly]

36. sad, isn't it?

we have to read between the lines...

[Vidar]

27. Completely agree.

[Quixote1818]

30. What gets me is even FOX news allows discussion of this topic

Sure they tear the guys down who appear but some of them have got in some really good points and have been able to direct people to the different web sites. For example the professor who mentioned that one of the members of the Bush Administration is on board with this. That kind of stumped Sean Hannity.

[AlwaysQuestion]

33. A compromise perhaps--or maybe it's already been thought of

I'm relatively new, so perhaps you or someone else can address my comment and put me on the right track. I rather like to have everything relative to 911 in one spot. It makes it easy for me to gravitate to new material and rehash some of the old. The topic areas are just like a file cabinet. As for people thinking most of us here are conspiracy theorists, I don't give a whit what they think. I know my own mind, trust in my own judgment and I'm sure you and others feel similarly about yourselves. The only whack jobs I've come across here are those who actually believe the official story--and I am sore appalled.

I see nothing wrong with a compromise by allowing a 911 topic on the general discussion board for a few days and once it's loaded up with comments, have it transferred to the topic file.

Surely the moderators know that those who disagree with the official government 911 story are not whack jobs. Please tell me they don't cuz I want to be able to respect their judgment. That doesn't mean that we necessarily KNOW the right story--we are only surmizing given the government's official position that we should not have access to the facts. Put the blame where the blame lies--directly on the current administration.

P.S. Quite frankly, I believe that all thinking Americans and countrymen from the so-called American allies should be taking an ongoing active interest in 911. It is afterall the catalyst for Bushco's actions which has mired the country down in debt, killed thousands of fighting men and women on both sides and killed countless thousands of Iraqi innocents. Yes, 911 should be front and centre UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE TRUTH WINS OUT AND THE UNGODLY MESS IS STRAIGHTENED OUT.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbieinok]

34. explosive theories leave me cold -- I don't understand the

engineering/science debates.

What soon made me very suspicious of the official story --

--where were the military planes that should have been on the 4 planes??

--why did bushco not want an investigation?? they had to bee pushed to get a commission .... compare the reponse and intensity of the investigation into 9-11 and the investigation of the shuttle explosion.....and the amount of money allocated

--the Patriot Act was ready to go (I understand it was very long), and it was rushed through with members of congress given little time to study it ... and they had to do this while under anthrax attack (and whatever happened to THAT investigation????????)

And THEN the PNAC document that said a Pearl Harbor style event would be needed to get public support for what the PNACers wanted to achieve.

AND the farce of the 9-11 hearings (W and Cheney interviewed together and NOT under oath) and the August memo that W ignored while on that incredibly bizarre vacation.

[screembloodymurder]

35. We're being watched by government agents and we were put here to

make it easier for the administrators to ID the watchers.

[savemefromdumbya]

51. gosh!

everyone is watching everyone else!

[mirandapriestly]

37. Election fraud was treated as "conspiracy theory" by DU

and look at this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

a snippet from the HBO special, there is no doubt about the machines being 100% hackable without anyone knowing.

[Nozebro]

38. I'm confused. What's the difference between "conspiracy theory",

"conspiracy", a logical conclusion, historical fact etc.? What role does corporate media play in framing something as being a "conspiracy theory" or plain old conspiracy, or something else? Why should we allow CORPORATE media to decide for US whether or not something is a conspiracy theory?

Prosecutors all over the nation file conspiracy charges every day. Does that fact have any bearing on how we should talk about CTs, CTers, and Truth Seekers?

[mirandapriestly]

41. the term is used so that others will immediately dismiss it

I hate the term because of that, although the actual meaning is fairly accurate. People will say "I don't believe any of the conspiracy theories about 9-11" and they mean they don't believe any of the theorizing or speculating that people have done in an attempt to understand what happened, since what we were told does not make sense, but that is so silly, because what we have been told by the Bush administration and the corporate owned media is really just a conspiracy theory and a bad, unproved one that has not been investigated! but they believe THAT? Most Americans are in need of authority figures to tell them what the truth is and they don't trust any source that doesn't wear a suit and an official corporate logo, even it it appeals to their common sense.

There is nothing to separate the 19 hijackers story from conspiracy theory, but because it has the "official" stamp of approval, everyone believes it. It's also racist, because they would never get away with unproved allegations of this nature against a white skinned country.

[AZCat]

42. "Racist"? That's a new one... (n/t)

[Nozebro]

43. Because you hadn't thought of it before, or because you disagree? If you

disagree, I'd be interested in hearing your spin (sorry, I meant your well-thought-out reasoning).

[mirandapriestly]

44. thanks nozebro

responding to posts like that becomes tiring (is that their point?).

[AZCat]

46. Whatever, miranda.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

[Nozebro]

47. Yes, I believe so. Just think about how the GOP uses vote suppression tactics.

As you well know:
The GOP uses a ton of tricks to discourage people from voting, prevent it where possible, confuse if it's inevitable, and steal if necessary. Whatever it takes to win. To "them", the end (winning) justifies the means.

[AZCat]

48. Let me get this straight...

Are you and miranda accusing me of trying to suppress discussion of September 11th conspiracy theories?

[Nozebro]

49. Why would you say something like that? I don't support a CT and I don't

believe, in fact I'm real sure, MP doesn't either. The only people here that support a conspiracy theory are all on your side. Your question suggests you want to shut yourself up. Not that I'd object, but...

[AZCat]

50. I know you understand what I'm trying to say.

This particular agenda of yours - attempting to redefine certain terms - doesn't prevent you from being able to understand my post. Are you going to respond to it?

[AZCat]

45. I hadn't thought of it before.

I don't know if I agree - I'll have to think about it some more.

[Quixote1818]

40. The earth being a sphere was once a conspiracy theory. nt