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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:01 PM
Original message
F.A.A. Official Scrapped Tape of 9/11 Controllers'

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/national/06CND-TAPE.h...

F.A.A. Official Scrapped Tape of 9/11 Controllers'
Statements
NY Times May 6

WASHINGTON, May 6 At least six air traffic
controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked
airliners on Sept. 11, 2001, made a tape recording
that day describing the events, but the tape was
destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a
transcript or even listening to it, the Transportation
Department said today...

The taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, but it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. quality-assurance manager, who crushed the cassette in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department.


Does anyone have an explanation for this peculiar behaviour?
Was the FAA manager a performance artist rehearsing for his next show?

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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. If true, more evidence for MIHOP.
He had to know the implications of what may have been on that tape.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
prodigal_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. so torturers produce recorded evidence while
FAA officials destroy evidence?

In what world are either of those actions OK?

Nice.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Bob Stanford saves the government

One could think it was an original Radio-tape with the correspondence with pilots, passengers or something. But it wasnt.

So we can go to bed because the tape was not important?





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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. inexcusable
If I found myself in that situation, I would want to dictate to tape. I'd we waaay too shaken to type. I would expect that document of record to be retained until I was finished with it.

It sounds like just some over-zealous employee covering his ass, but if you :tinfoilhat:ers wanna go for it, I won't say a word.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I agree
The article seems to indicate there was some underlying reason that the tape shouldn't have been made in the first place. What that is, I can't understand from the article.

A manager gathered the several ATCs that had dealt with the hijacked planes and interviewed them. The manager that destroyed the tape had promised a ATC union official that the tape would be destroyed. Mercutio, can you shed a little light here?

1. If the tape simply duplicated information that could be derived from other sources, then why take the time and trouble to destroy and discard it? It doesn't make sense.

2. If the tape had more information than could be derived from other sources, then the destruction of the tape is especially offensive.

Either way, have at it. As I see it, this is incompetence above and beyond the call of duty. The only thing that could make this worse is if the manager who destroyed the tape happened to be the president of the Re-Elect Bush campaign in his area.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. bolo: Those criminals belong on FOX's "Dumbest Criminals" show
"As I see it, this is incompetence above and beyond the call of duty."

Those 9-11 conspirators are SOME kind of "incompetent" criminals. It's a wonder they ever even made it out of the cave in one piece.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The incompetence-LIHOP mindset
Why are they still stuck in this purgatory? PNAC, pre-planned wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and__________,a neo-European currency threating the dollar's hegemony, pipelines to be built, smack to be harvested---all of these things hinging on 9/11. And Busco just looks the other way while the gang that couldn't fly straight just does their thing? Right. Bushco don't throw darts at a board kids.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Handicappers
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." - J. Edgar Hoover

The "caveman & incompetence did it" theorists need a new name:
Handicappers.

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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. its a chronic condition for some
Paging Dr. Tim Osman to the psych. ward..
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I really don't understand you guys
Here's a situation tailor-made for your theories. Trogl and I have for once stepped aside and said, "Have at it."

And yet you'd still rather discuss us. What gives?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Sorry, Bolo...I haven't a clue about this one. My thoughts, though...
Edited on Fri May-07-04 01:20 AM by MercutioATC
It was recorded in New York Center (not Cleveland Center, where I work).

From the language used, I'd think that a manager interviewed controllers without any official authorization to do so and without union representation present, which is contrary to our contract with the FAA. Unless the government wanted to deal with another lawsuit, they'd have to destroy the tape.

On the other hand, these same controllers were interviewed numerous times with appropriate measures in place. This information would have been kept.

What it sounds like to me is that an overzealous manager (this is the federal government...you wouldn't believe how we've mastered the Peter Principle) tried to carry out his own interview without any approval. That's a no-no.

However, rest assured that these same people were interviewed numerous times (legitimately) by the FBI and the FAA. This is just another sensationalistic piece, in my estimation.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I get it.
So the manager was destroying evidence that this overzealous manager had violated the ATC contract. Things are making more sense.

It still was an idiotic thing to do. The tape should have been transcribed and then destroyed in the presence of witnesses.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Actually, no. If the interview wasn't approved, it should have
been destroyed.

This is a labor law issue. Union employees are entitled to their contractual rights. A good portion of our economy is based on these rights.

That said, had the interview contained anything NOT divulged in the other interviews (remember, these controllers were interviewed by EVERYBODY, even Tom Brokaw) I'm sure it would have been saved in the interest of national security (which always takes precedence).
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Especially, any "stuff" that could support "Cave People Did It" theory
"had the interview contained anything NOT divulged in the other interviews (remember, these controllers were interviewed by EVERYBODY, even Tom Brokaw) I'm sure it would have been saved in the interest of national security (which always takes precedence)."

Tom Brokaw: Wowie! He's one tough cookie. Is Jack Welch his boss? Oh, no, wait. Welch did his thing on election night 2,000 and then retired.
But, I'm sure that Tom Brokaw ("crusading" journalist that he is) asked all of the right questions, and if there was anything that conflicted with the "Cave People Did It" Theory, Mr. Brokaw would have take the appropriate action.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. That wasn't my point. My point was that these controllers have been
interviewed numerous times by people ranging from FAA management to the FBI to the national media. It's hardly as if their stories haven't been heard.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Re: Rights
MercutioATC says:
This is a labor law issue. Union employees are entitled to their contractual rights. A good portion of our economy is based on these rights.

Pray, what rights do the people of Afghanistan and Iraq have?
Their nations have been and are being bombed because of the something that happened - OR DID NOT HAPPEN - in the United States on September 11, 2001.

Why should we believe the person who destroyed that tape when he says that EVERYTHING on it has been revealed?
His credibilty is equivalent to that of Dubya.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. What do Iraq and Afghanistan have to do with U.S. labor law?
I'm not disagreeing that the people of Iraq and Afghanistan should have rights, but that has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. You're kidding


who crushed the cassette in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building

I don't think the manager was worrying about union lawsuits. He did everything to prevent a reconstruction of the tape. He wanted to irreversibly destroy it because he didn't like its contents.

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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. By the way, Mercutio

have you been working in Oberlin on 9/11?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Actually, I was at the FAA's Tech Center in Atlantic City on 9/11
working on RVSM (Reduced Vertical Separation Minima) simulations, but yes, I do work in Oberlin. UAL93 went down in the airspace I usually work.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. But you surely know some people

who have been working there on 9/11?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Sure, I know the controller who was working when UAL93 went down.
Why?
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I've read somewhere that the Center was evacuated

nearly completely around 10 o clock.

Can you confirm that?


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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. There was a bomb scare and the Center was evacuated.
Edited on Fri May-07-04 11:18 AM by MercutioATC
A skeleton crew remained to work the airplanes, though.

Actually, not a "bomb" scare...it was thought that the Center might have been a target for a hijacked aircraft.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. A hijacked aircraft? Which one?

UA 93?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. A combination of UAL93 and another aircraft near Cleveland.
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Could you please clarify the statement?

Sorry, I don't understand that. Were there two aircrafts directed to Cleveland Center? Which other aircraft?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. UAL93 turned around near the Center. Additionally, there was an aircraft
that we lost contact with over Cleveland (false alarm as it turns out).
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. OK. But

after flight 93 made its U-turn over Cleveland, it moved straight away from the Center, right? So it cannot have been a threat.

So it must have been the other aircraft causing the evacuation, or am I wrong?

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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Good. You follow the line.
who was "skeleton" with poor lonely Stacey - you?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Nope, ONCE AGAIN, I was in Atlantic City.
Edited on Sat May-08-04 01:22 PM by MercutioATC
There was one male controller in Area 5 with Stacey, one or 2 controllers in each of the other 6 Areas on the floor and supervisory staff.

..call it 10-20 people.
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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. ATTENTION RED HERRING - ATTENTION RFD HERRING - ATTENTION RED HERRING -AT
Edited on Fri May-07-04 01:29 PM by medienanalyse
dear DUers,

the story is made by the same fabric as so many others as i.e. the "Hunt the Boeing":

we shall again run for evidence that does not exist, protest against a deletion of something which content is completely unclear ...

Let us take the simple facts: what we miss as evidence - and I am talking REAL evidence which really must be existant, is:

2 CVR tapes (at least) of UA93 and AA77, which were recovered
2 FDR tapes " "
4 RADAR screenshot tapes, that is the NORAD one, the FAA Herndon one, the one from Cleveland and the one from Boston/Nashua at least, additionally the one from Reagan airport about the approach of AA77

In charge were the ARTCCs Cleveland and Nashua - and NOT the New York one. So we are missing the
2 radio tapes from Cleveland and Nashua (the fakes which are available are a joke)

We need the videotapes of the airport cameras from Logan, Kennedy and Dulles.

Some more tapes? Let me recall: the tapes of the surveillance cameras close to the Pentagon.

What about of all the tapes of all the airports which were not involved, but had the events on their screens and could listen to the radio?

There are some more tapes: the tapes of the three C-130 close to the evnts. The tapes of the F-15 circling UAL93.

Some more tapes? What about the tapes of the allegedly scrambled five F-15 /F-16 from OTIS and Langley?

Enough about TAPES. It is only the TAPE-evidence that I am listing here. The perpetrators of 9/11 know exactly what to hide and what to offer.

And the whole sceptic movement loves to run for the sticks. When do peopl ever notice that the NY times does NOT just tell us what they "found out"?
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
16. NYFD Union Members must not be Republican enough
Those poor schmucks who made tapes (in which they lied about hearing explosions in the WTC. okay, okay, I agree what they heard could have been ANYthing from firecrackers to computers hitting the deck after a 100 story freefall. they weren't NECESSARILY part of the controlled demolition of the buildings) at the WTC have just had to bite their lip and live with their recorded statements. Maybe now, they'll get the message and all become Republicans.
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dinyc Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. hmm
Obviously (?) the two planes they are talking about are Flight 11 & Flight 175. Originally these two planes were tracked from the facility in Nashua NH I believe. It was the Nashua ATC who reported the planes almost collided over upstate NY.

So when were they handed over to the people in LI?
Weren't the planes incommunicato by the time they were?
Maybe not Flight 175, but definitely Flight 11.
When they say 16 people gathered in a room and passed around a mic, were all of these people from the LI facility?

Isn't the premise of why this tape was made a little stupid?
The center manager's idea was to have the tape available overnight, in case the F.B.I. wanted something before the controllers returned to work the next day, according to people involved.

Earlier the article says the ATC's shift was ending and they wanted to go home. I remember seeing a pic of the Nashua facility with cops parked at the entrance. Would the FBI really be happy with a tape recording they didn't supervise? Were these people really allowed to leave work before being debriefed properly by law enforcement (removing any need for a tape like this to be made in the first place)?

That seems a little bit odd. And where was the tape between the time it was made and 12/01 2/02 when the quality control guy did his Get Smart! routine?
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