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frankly_fedup2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:47 AM
Original message
Something I have never seen reported and/or explained . . .
is the air-traffic controllers' stories. Why did they just watch these planes go off course and the transponders turned off and not notify anyone? Who were these controllers? What are their names? What is their excuses.

Also, why did everything our government is suppose to have in place to protect us from such attacks not work? Nothing!

Also, after Bush saw the video of the first plane and said, "Must be a terrible pilot." I, personally watching at home was thinking, "Oh my God . . . those poor people in the WTC and on the plane. He was kind of joking.

Also, when Bush finally did leave Florida, why did he not have a military escort with him? After all, they have always claimed Air Force One was a target as well. Why was it later, when they were flying across the country that the Air Force joined Air Force One for its protection.

Does anyone know where any of these answers are OR if anyone else have asked these questions as well AND were they just ignored?

I'm really interested in the Air-Traffic controllers stories. They, obviously, did not seem to be able to do anything but watch the blips on the screen.

Also, did the 911 Comission ever ask ANYONE about some of these questions? Why are they asking the Government what it did or didn't do before or after 911? Why not question them regarding incidents that happened that day?

One more question (not related to the above) . . . what does the "Mark all clock" due? I'm new and trying to figure it out but I cannot figure out the Mark All Clock icon?????
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. I have a friend who's husband used to sit in those planes.
You know 3 min. or 1 min to take off.We have talked and talked about this.We never could figure it out and their is Air Force one with a fleet of fighters to hide Bush in the West some place. It has always been a big question to me.
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Thione1n Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. No one has been allowed to speak with the air traffic controllers
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frankly_fedup2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Wouldn't that alone be a smoking gun to a certain extent (nt)?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Besides Tom Brokaw, you mean?
Tom interviewed all of the controllers involved as part of a 9/11 special.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think that they reported that
the plane was off course. They called the pilots. There were some tapes. In my opinion george let it happen. Good excuse to go after saddam and also take over the country. That is why they never put fighter planes in the sky. I don't think the fighters could go with out an ok from gw bush.
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Thione1n Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I think the CIA did it.
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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. Why did no designated representative of the federal government address....
the nation during or after the attacks. Even as late as 11am California time, I was still only hearing that a plane was headed for Los Angeles, and the news was never clear that it was a plane that had already crashed, that had previously been headed for Los Angeles.

At a time like that, the President would normally address the nation immediately or if he was incapacitated (which I suppose he was ... mentally), a designated representative would officially address the nation.
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jbfam4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Karen Hughes addressed the nation
Thought that was VERY strange, but all the rest were hiding.
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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. I adressed it and Kristen Breitweiser
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 11:20 AM by medienanalyse
I found out it was only ONE ATC in the ARTCC Cleveland, named Stacey Taylor. The rest was evacuated. No more ATCs as witnesses.

It was only ONE ATC in Nashua (responsible for the WTC flights). This ATC was also responsible for the Egypt air disaster.

The center - that is FAA in Herndon - was also closed to all civilians.

Kristen Breitweiser adressed it because WTC2 security personal gave out by loudspeakers that only WTC1 was hit, so no problem Her husband would still be alive if the ATC in Nashua, who told the public that they just stared "helplessly" on their screens when the second plane took the same way, would just have phoned the WTC security.

All in my book. see http://www.medienanalyse-international.de/fakten.html

Just found the Breitweiser source:

BREITWEISER: I want an independent investigation into the 24 hours of September 11th. I want to know why certain things failed. I want to know why my husband was told to return to his desk when the FAA comes out on Monday with a press conference saying that it was an excruciating 11 minutes for the controllers to think about that airliner heading dead center on my husbands building. Eleven minutes on an express elevator in tower two would have been my husbands life.
http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Egulufuture/future/breitwe...
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. You seem to have your facts mixed up again...
Stacey was one of two controllers left in Area 5 at Cleveland Center after the evacuation. Each of the other 6 areas in the building had controllers working, too. Additionally, supervisory personnel were still present. We've covered this ground before.....
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. Three separate events
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 04:25 PM by DulceDecorum
namely, the WTC collapse,
and the Pentagon bombing,
and the departure of 25 billion dollars with fighter jet escort,
occurred on September 11, 2001.

As for the planes, they all survived.
As for the hijackers, many are still alive.
As for the pilots, some of their credentials are very shaky.
As for the script-writers,
they are still desperately trying to convince you that the events of September 11, 2001, were caused by the Muslims.

Finally, we must try to achieve a level of public discourse on these issues that is simultaneously energetic and mutually respectful. I hoped, through my book and testimony, to make criticism of the conduct of the war on terrorism and the separate war in Iraq more active and legitimate. We need public debate if we are to succeed. We should not dismiss critics through character assassination, nor should we besmirch advocates of the Patriot Act as fascists.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/25/opinion/25CLAR.html?p...

Unfortunately for Richard Clarke et al,
ALL advocates of the Patriot Act ARE fascists
and all the PR in the world
will not change a pig's ear into a silk purse.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Surely, I will regret this, but I must ask
what is the 25 billion departure via fighter jet escort about?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
13. I can only address the ATC issues...
Edited on Tue Apr-27-04 11:22 AM by MercutioATC
The controllers who were involved didn't just sit idly by. They continued to work all of the other aircraft they had, attempted to contact the hijacked planes repeatedly, moved other planes out of their way when they deviated from their flight plans and notified their supervisors. That's exactly what they're supposed to do.

Here's how information got passed prior to 9/11:

1) Controller cannot contact a plane or observes it deviating from its flight plan.

2) Controller tries to contact pilot.

3) Unable to contact pilot, controller moves other aircraft out of harm's way and notifies his/her supervisor.

4) Supervisor comes to the sector and observes the problem.

5) Supervisor evaluates the problem and decides whether to call the manager in charge.

6) Manager in charge observes the situation.

7) Manager in charge evaluates the problem and decides whether to call the Command Center.

8) Command Center observes the situation.

9) Command Center evaluates the problem and decides whether to call NORAD.

These people aren't waiting breathlessly for the phone to ring 24/7 either...they have other duties and may take a minute or two to come to the phone.

THAT'S precisely where the delay existed. Procedures have changed, but prior to 9/11 there were a LOT of links in the chain.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Oh my!
it is starting to look like USAToday might have made up some of that stuff they wrote about Ben Sliney then.
No matter, we know they lie to us on a daily basis.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'm not familiar with that article. Have a summary or a link I could read
to give me the gist of what they claimed?
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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. ultimate stupidity
Mercutio,

it is you who mixes up the facts again. You ignore the rules of the FAA which were posted here several times how to treat even the DOUBT of a hijacking.

You ignore the facts of the day, that is :everybody was alarmed after the first hijacking. The open lines.

And additionally your claim is not worth to discuss because of the obvious try to deviate from the main questions by building up a "timeline" of "one after the other". I.e.:
"9) Command Center evaluates the problem and decides whether to call NORAD"
This says that the Command Center is number 9 in a line of information and evaluation. Poor command center! It has no own screens, it has no possibilities to listen to the radioing of the ATCs, it has no contact to anybody ...

And look at this poor NORAD: they do not have screens too, do not listen to the traffic on the lines and never know where the planes and their own fighters are.

They are all so innocent in their lack of knowledge.

No, Mercutio. We see your agenda. It is enough.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I should just give up with you, but:
In order:

1) I've explained how the culture was different before 9/11. Yes, there were procedures for dealing with loss of communications, last transponders, and deviations from filed flight plans. We'd all seen these things hundreds of times. I couldn't possibly count the number of times I've had a plane stop talking to me or deviate. I've seen hundreds of lost transponders.

Insisting that the way controllers handled events that day was suspicious is akin to saying that somebody who ignores the "check engine" light in their car after they've seen it illuminate hundreds of times with no existing problem is part of some vast conspiracy.

The rules are different now and awareness has obviously been heightened. We still lose transponders and communications on a regular basis and fighters don't get scrambled.

2) "You ignore the facts of the day, that is :everybody was alarmed after the first hijacking. The open lines."

I have NO idea what you mean by this...

3) Of course the Command Center has displays. It's all a matter of scale. The Command Center analyzes traffic flow, not individual aircraft. As an analogy, controllers have an "on the street" view of traffic...Command Center has a satellite picture. The Command center wouldn't be aware of a problem with one aircraft of the 4500 in the sky unless their attention was specifically turned that way.

4) As I said, I don't comment on NORAD's actions. I have no knowledge of how they operate.

5) Again, why the hell would I have an agenda other than trying to dispel some common misconceptions about the job I do? I have nothing to gain by lying. I would, however, like it if people had a better general understanding of what air traffic controllers do.

Show me ONE piece of "knowledge" of the ATC system that you have gained firsthand. I have 13 years of firsthand knowledge. You don't have to agree with me, but to suggest I say what I do because of some hidden agenda is just silly.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 08:36 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 08:43 AM
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. No replies that aren't deleted? I'm interested...what is your response?
Hell, PM me if you must (just this once). I'm just interested in how you'll respond..
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Wonder who is responsible for all that censoring? And WHY?
Well, whoever owns the press, and all that. Or is it: "All the views that fit the print".
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Oh PLEASE...the mods are now part of the conspiracy?
My bet is that the deleted messages simply broke DU rules. I was just curious, since they were in reply to my post.
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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. yes they broke DU rules
Edited on Sun May-02-04 02:52 AM by medienanalyse
They were done by two other persons and me concerning identities. The very narrow rules at this point allow you, Mercutio, to claim a profession and to argue with your alleged professionalism, but to doubt this allegation and to introduce other thoughts about your profession leads to removal of postings.
I will try to avoid that, I was too angry, too emotional. Especially because I normally accompany my thoughts with facts as i.e.:

qutote: "We still lose transponders and communications on a regular basis and fighters don't get scrambled." He wants us to add in our thoughts: "and we ATCs do not call for mama NOARD immediately".

Which is against the rules of the FAA and which is untrue. Before 9/11 about 70 times it was necessary to intercept civilian planes - per year. AFTER 9/11 this number increased several times. there is no lax mode of laissez-faire, completely impossible in such a narrow airspace in comparison to so many flights.

You do not know about the open lines. Do you really need to get the links posted again and again that after the first hit open lines were switsched betweeen FAA-NORAD-NEADS-NMCC-Bush-Mineta and the ATCs in charge?

Do you really need to get a description of the atmosphere after the first signs of hijacking? In theory and in fact of 9/11? Every little problem is observed with a even closer look and reaction.

The screens in herndon - too small for so many duties? No links online to the ATC in charge in his space in the ARTCC?

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Once again, I'm understanding very little of what you say...
I really don't care if you believe me or not, but transponders are still regularly lost as are communications. I have notified my supervisor on some of these occasions, but NORAD has yet to scramble a fighter on any of my aircraft.

Although I don't know where those 70 planes a year were being intercepted (certainly not in Cleveland Center airspace), I'd venture a guess that the majority of them were intercepted by fighters already on a training mission when the civilian aircraft entered their training space or a nearby restricted area. In 13 years, I have never seen a fighter intercept a civilian aircraft.

Look, don't believe ME. Talk to an ATC who works in a busy enroute facility sometime. I guarantee they'll confirm what I've said.
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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. interceptors nearly every day in action
Edited on Mon May-03-04 02:31 AM by medienanalyse
when I discuss the message and not the messenger (although you try to insist to discuss if I believe you or not), so: when I follow the rules including being polite, then I smile a little bit and say:

your message, dear old friend mercutio, is untrue. My archives bear a lot of intercept-situations. In Germany we had i.e. some very famous ones: one which stopped the traffic in Frankfurt for hours. And one when a C-130 lost all instruments in a thunderstorm (coming from Ramstein). But I even notice some incidents in the USA, i.e. here: www.medienanalyse-international.de/cessna.html
It`s all in English.
Mike Ruppert collected much more, and others too.

So all in all it is well documented that your claim about lost radio, lost transponders without reaction is just (politly again) "untrue".

Have a nice and pleasant day. BTW.: were you the male voice on the tape together with Stacey on 9/11?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm going to reply to this tomorrow...I want 7110.65 references
and it's easier for me to find them on paper than an internet search.

Suffice it to say that Arnett doesn't know anything about ATC.

BTW, have you ever actually spoken to somebody that you've verified IS a real air traffic controller? You might find it much more useful than basing theories on the ignorance of non-aviation people.
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. WHICH conspiracy? The "Cave People Did It"? I doubt it.
Please state your conspiracy theory. In plain, ATC English.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I asked why the mods deleted the replies to my post and wanted to
see what they said. You replied:



"Wonder who is responsible for all that censoring? And WHY?

Well, whoever owns the press, and all that. Or is it: "All the views that fit the print"."


Naturally, I assumed you were suggesting that the mods were censoring content here at DU. It seems that's not what you meant.


...what DID you mean??????

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