Professor's 9/11 theories outrage NH leaders (NH Union Leader)

[NewHampshireDem]

A tenured professor of psychology at the University of New Hampshire, believes an "elite" group within the federal government orchestrated the September 11th attacks on America.

William Woodward has already raised that possibility in his classroom and later this year hopes to teach a class that would explore Sept. 11th "in psychological terms -- terms like belief, conspiracy, fear, truth, courage, group dynamics."

He may not get the chance. Several state leaders yesterday criticized Woodward for bringing the radical theories into the classroom.

"In my view, there are limitations to academic freedom and freedom of speech," said U.S. Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H.

"I believe it is inappropriate for someone at a public university which is supported with taxpayer dollars to take positions that are generally an affront to the sensibility of most all Americans," Gregg said.

<more>
http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Professor%27s+9%2f11+theories+outrage+NH+leaders&articleId=0a013444-f391-4eaf-ae95-24cab674130b

You'll note in the article that the 'NH leaders' were all Repubs. How long before Faux news picks this one up? I'll lay dollars to donuts it's on 'The Factor' by the end of the week.

[az chela]

1. Lets hope this brings about an investigation as to what really

happened on 9/11.
There are too many unanswered questions and theories that indicate a cover-up and they need to be brought out in the open.It has been 5 years,we have a right to know the truth.

[DocSavage]

62. Could

you maybe just throw out a guess on how many people would be involved in a operation like the govt would have had to do? Just wondering where all the bodies are cause you know after 5 years someone would have talked, then there is the question about the families, and thier families, well you get my drift. A nuber within 1K would be fine with me.

[electricray]

86. The thing is

it could conceiveably be thousands but the point you are making assumes the premise that every person has to be in on every part of the operation. The fact is only a few people are needed to orchestrate the multitudes that it would take to fool the world. Consider the CIA and other organizations that are massive but deal with secret information. There are levels of security and methods for countering any leaks that are time-tested and very effective. Anyone who does leak information ends up looking like a fringe wacko so leaks of real information don't pose that much of a threat to a well-oiled secrecy machine.

The thing is, there are a lot of unanswered questions. They go unanswered for a reason. This was one of the biggest events in our nations history and people at the highest levels of our government don't want to know the answers or know them and are covering them up. Whether the reason is because of the political damage of revealing our leaders' folly or the actual civil unrest that would occur if the most extreme conspiracy theories were borne out we as a nation have a right to know the real info and why it is being kept secret.

Is your handle DocSavage as a tribute? I find that guy a little reprehensible. No offense to you, just saying. Unless Dan Savage happens to have a PhD as well. Then I humbly withdraw.

[DocSavage]

103. RE: handle

Read the books alot as a kid, liked them.

[truedelphi]

112. What you are saying reminds me

that I had heard that air traffic controllers and air plane pilots were
told to keep quiet about anything they sw or heard that day - so those who might have a view
of a tiny bit of the puzzle do not (Cannot) add it and it is forever lost

[Usrename]

99. My guess is less than the number involved in Iran/Contra

Iran/Contra was much larger and more complicated. And at least four of those convicted conspirators were hired to work for this Administration. Right?

Pay attention, please.

[Chemical Bill]

107. What I find facinating...

is that you seem to be implying that there could not possibly be any truth to the professor's hypothesis because you don't see how there could be any truth to the professor's hypothesis. Is that what you are think?

Bill

[Sinti]

111. Less than 20, probably less than 12

All intel/black ops work on compartmentalization. Only a few see the whole picture, while the others just do their job.

[mhatrw]

115. How about 20?

Isn't that about how many that you believe pulled off the whole job?

Why would pulling off 9/11 be harder for well-placed and powerful insiders than it would be for a ragtag band of 19 Arabs armed with box cutters?

[krispos42]

2. I doubt it will take that long n/t

[Selatius]

3. Freedom of speech means nothing without the right to offend

If only popular ideas are aired, then it leaves the possibility that the prevailing sentiment is wrong. At one time people thought the Earth was flat. Did they ban or punish those who said otherwise? Yes, they did. So where do we draw the line? Who decides? These NH Repubs?

[greyl]

5. I'm pretty sure there'd be some hot threads here about an anti-gay

professor who said that homosexuality wasn't a genetic trait.
Correct?

[Selatius]

6. Most likely, but my point still stands.

If the professor will submit his findings to the scientific community for peer review, we'll know if he's speaking because the evidence indicates that or because he simply imposed his beliefs on the whole process and selected facts to fit his beliefs and ignored other relevant facts that may have challenged his beliefs...like Bush with Iraq.

[greyl]

9. Peer review. That's the golden key. nt

[Ghost Dog]

27. Who said anything about "findings"?

(ed: apart from the media "spin").

What I see is a proposal to debate, in class, and form, in an exemplary manner, perhaps, experimental hypotheses...

Is there anything out of order to do with this way of proceeding, sir?

[greyl]

4. It just so happens that "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" are total idiots.

The name sounds nice, but the org is wacked.

A psych teacher should know better. At least I'd hope so.

[pretzel4gore]

12. we should believe you?

all i know is that the busheviks used fraud to win the 2k election. 911 was staged as part of their scheme, it appears. calling bush skeptics 'idiots' helps the busheviks, so cease and desist, ok...pertinent criticism of anti busheviks is necessary, and helpful, but it should be done where the guidelines are agreed upon, where benefit result to US. idiots? bush is the only idiot that who needs a kick in the ass, imo....

[wildbilln864]

23. no we should not believe him/her...

That one is one of a group of about four or five who seem to constantly monitor the September 11th forum and attempt to discourage any efforts to debunk the OCT of 911.

Here is one of many lists of many respected members of society that feel a new complete investigation is warranted. Are all of these people also idiots?
Click here.

[mirandapriestly]

80. A vocal minority, look at the recs received for this

and other 911 threads. People want to talk about it.

[Grateful for Hope]

101. Just noticed that

33 recs, and probably more if it had stayed out of the dungeon. Does say something about the level of interest in this subject on DU.

[AZCat]

97. You seem to equate...

pointing out discrepancies or fallacies of alternate "theories" with "attempt(s) to discourage any efforts to debunk the OCT of 911." This is of course incorrect, as any rational person can see.

[HamdenRice]

48. The search function is your friend!

I agree with the other person who responded to your post. Try doing a search of the posts by author of some of the people who seem available, on a 24 hour, 7 day a week basis, to ridicule any questioning of the 9/11 official conspiracy theory. The results are quite chilling.

[pretzel4gore]

64. yes, Grey1 is right...

i instinctively defend anti bush people, and instinctively attack those who are onside with the fartin freeper (bush) simply put, i'm wrong. the 'scholars for 911 truth' are indeed idiots (possibly not as unusual as earlier thought)

[greyl]

110. No. You should thoroughly investigate the matters for yourself. nt

[ima_sinnic]

24. "total idiots" because you say so? gee, it must be true!

gee, nice of you to come around here and save everybody the trouble of having to think for themselves. sort of like, er, um, a few other unnamed gasbags who get paid to spout their gibberish 24/7s.

on edit: since they bother you so much, I am going to make a point of very carefully perusing their webiste and writings.

2nd edit: a link to their website: http://911review.org/ScholarsforTruthabout911/
how about that--they actually have peer-reviewed papers!

[hack89]

63. I think you need to research what peer review really means.

it doesn't mean creating your own organization and journal and then publishing your own articles. It doesn't work for the intelligent design folks at the Discovery Institute and it doesn't work for the 911 "scholars".

When an established professional engineering or scientific journal publishes anything from the 9/11 scholars then we can talk about peer review.

[havocmom]

28. Critical investigation without limits of emotional fever/political doctrin

not wanted? Hmmm, that says much right there.

As to the educator in NH, good on him. There is not enough honest teaching going on in America. Consequently, lots of people never learn how to dig for evidence then test it rationally. That seems to be the professors aim. Amazing who would want to prevent such an exercise.

And quite telling. Those pols in NH under some pressure to keep a lid on things at their Uni?

Now, who and how would anybody apply pressure to any pol in the nation? Oh yeah, all those wire taps that the junta knew the FISA court would not have approved probably provided some dirt on just about everyone. So easy to apply pressure whenever needed if you know what skeletons are in closets.

When fair and complete examination of data and circumstances, motives and results are thwarted in America, we cannot call it a democratic republic. When only party or church approved doctrine is allowed, we have something entirely different, don't we.

The iron curtain didn't fall in the Reagan years, it was moved here, piece by piece.

[EVDebs]

44. A Vietnam vet Air Force pilot supports their theories and is running for

Congress in FL from what I've heard. Why isn't he drinking the Kool-Aid ?

[petgoat]

53. Why isn't he drinking the Kool-Aid ?

Because he has a PhD from Caltech and he used to be the director of the "Star
Wars" program before it was called "Star Wars" and he resigned when he realized
its potential as an offensive weapon.

He gave an amazoing speech back in 2004: "Some Dare Call It Treason-Wake Up America!"


http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/28/bowman.html

[Recursion]

105. Umm... is there any indication he thinks otherwise?

I'm just guessing here, but given that he's a psych professor and he said he wants to teach it in terms of things like "conspiracy" and "group dynamics", my assumption would be that he's interested in studying the "9/11 alternative" movement or whatever you want to call it, not neccessarily that he wants to convince students that the government did it.

And even if you think this guy's a nut, you have to put up with a lot of nuts to find a Newton or Galileo.

[keopeli]

7. Freedom of speech, by definition, has no limits.

The only exceptions have to do with the welfare of the state. One cannot yell fire in a theater. One cannot threaten the president or public officials.

Advancing hypothesis is the traditional way to inspire research and test theories. Let the teacher have his say. His students will be perfectly capable of thinking for themselves.

[FlavaKreemSnak]

8. Do you think they will say that the professor threatened the state?

Like for example if his opinions influenced other people to agree with him that it could hurt support for the war on terror?

[teryang]

57. That's what they said about physicist Steven Jones

That he was threatening the violent overthrow of the government on CSPAN.

[patricia92243]

10. When lecturing to a "Captive Audience" is free speech still allowed? n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

47. you mean college students?

They aren't a captive audience. They're free to leave a given lecture, drop the class entirely, or not sign up for it in the first place.

[yurbud]

51. the great thing about college is profs aren't censored like K-12 teachers

I could barely stand going to school until I graduated from high school, and once I got to college, I couldn't get enough.

If I found a particular instructor too far out in personal style, I'd drop the class, but I tried not to drop people for ideological reasons.

Even if the person is wrong, it's a good exercise in critical thinking to look at what they put together, find the flaws, and at least consider the possibility that they are right. That's what scholars do.

What they teach should be limited by methods of scholarship and relevance to their discipline, but not because it offends the sensibilities of people who just want to hear what they already believe.

[Hissyspit]

72. College students are not a "captive audience."

And they have freedom to speak up in opposition to the professor in class. It's called dialectics. It's called freedom of speech and it's traditional academics.

[neoblues]

11. Free Speech**

In the United States, we enjoy certain guaranteed freedoms. Among them is the "Freedom of Speech"**, which is something we Republicans are proud to have provided you with. :sarcasm: Bush is God's Messenger! Be Afraid! Republicans are the Chosen Ones! Fear! Conservative Americans are the Only Real Americans! Outsiders Beware! Obey Republicans! Fear! Listen to Rush/Hannity/O'Reilly! Fear! Annoy Democrats! Hate! Never Trust Outsiders! Hate! Crush the Enemy! Fear! Fear the Terra-ists! Fear! War is Good! Fear! Kill! Fear! Hate! Fear! Destroy!
Obey...
**WARNING†: Except if it offends the sensibilities of Republicans/Conservatives/Christians (even a single individual) or can be construed to disagree with any of their accepted beliefs, concepts, precepts, generalizations, interpolations or extrapolations (as approved of by leading Republican elected representatives, presidential administrations, corporate media, conservative media outlets and networks, popular conservative media personalities/pundits, federal/state/local Republican parties and their members, and Conservatives, Neo-Conservatives, Republican voters, Right-Wing Christians, and worthwhile Americans (note: Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, Namby-Pamby Types, and their ilk are not considered "worthwhile", and therefore their opinions on this matter are not only irrelevant, but not wanted!)). Obey... Bush is God!

† Punishable by loss of career, social ostracision, public humiliation, destruction (smearing) of reputation, "disappearment", criminal prosecution, and loss of life (by stoning/mob violence/individual assault/execution)...

Warning: this message contains examples of extremely stupid "Republican sublimial" (subliminal) messages, just because it seems appropriate when discussing our loss of civil rights and the Republican madness!

Edit: added "sarcasm" just in case anyone might miss it...

[SpiralHawk]

13. Jugghead Gregg believes it is cool to toss widows out of their homes

So I could give a fig what he thinks about professors having their own informed opinions.

Jugghead has proven time and and again that he hates the truth, and supports corrupt republicon cronies.

Jugghead, you are irrelevant so stick a lump of granite down your gullet.

[ixion]

14. Fortunately, it's not about 'your view' senator

and thank goodness for that, you fascist scumbag. :grr:

[tanyev]

15. Ah, here it is. I found it.

Bill of Rights

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the limited freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



Huh. Never noticed that before.



:sarcasm:

[0007]

16. What are these fearless leaders afraid of?

Flying was once considered a radical theory also.

[truthisfreedom]

17. most Americans agree that Gregg is totally full of shit.

[Vinca]

18. No Judd, no restrictions on freedom of speech .

Not that your president and party haven't tried their best.

[Buzz Clik]

19. Agreed:

How long before Faux news picks this one up? I'll lay dollars to donuts it's on 'The Factor' by the end of the week.

The rightwing shows love to parade lefty extremists with their nutbag points of view and then portray them as typical.

[SpiralHawk]

25. Jugghead is the nutbag. the Professor is asking the right questions

bout 9/11....

MIHOP

[rodeodance]

20. this will be a very lively classroom.

[wildbilln864]

21. I hope more...

citizens will exercise their freedom to challenge the lie that is 911!
K&R!

[formercia]

22. The 'elite' group is called the Knights of Malta

They have been trying to take over this country for generations.

[EVDebs]

45. Their Will Be Done, by Martin A. Lee in motherjones magazine

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

They were there at the creation of the CIA and usurped it via 'Wild Bill' Donovan et al from the git-go. Proxies are Opus Dei (see FBI spy Hanssen, neocons like Robt. Novak etc.) and prior, historically, the Jesuits.

[formercia]

54. Opus Dei took over from the Jesuits

after Jesuits began to preach revolutionary theology and the Pope put his own 'boys' in charge.

Opus Dei are the footsoldiers and the Knights of Malta (SMOM) are the 'officer corps and Diplomats'

[formercia]

55. Thanks for the link.

I think we've been here before.

Good to see you again.:)

[ima_sinnic]

26. my e-mail to Senator Gregg:

Quoting you from today's Union Leader regarding Prof. William Woodward's plan to explore what really happened to bring about 9/11: "In my view, there are limitations to academic freedom and freedom of speech," said U.S. Sen. Judd Gregg.

Better check the First Amendment again, Senator. I don't see the word "limited" in the phrase "no law . . . abridging freedom of speech."

Why do Republicans always get so threatened by the idea of investigating what really happened that day? Your pal, the unelected fraud currently fouling up the White House, certainly didn't knock himself out to get to the truth (remember the 28 deleted pages, the need to testify behind closed doors while sitting on Dick Cheney's lap, the foot-dragging to release documents, the gagging of Sibel Edmonds, the rush to whisk away bin Laden's relatives while AMERICANS were grounded?). It's obvious a coverup has taken place and We The People will get to the bottom of it, since our "representatives" in Congress refuse to do so.

edit: link to e-mail form: http://gregg.senate.gov/sitepages/contact.cfm

[DemonFighterLives]

31. Don't forget Kissinger!

Great Letter! :thumbsup:

[flyarm]

38. HEY DO YOU HAVE A TOWN OR ZIP CODE SO OTHERS CAN

SEND A LETTER TO THIS SENATOR??

this email keeps outsiders from sending a letter..i would really like to address this senator..as it was the airline i worked for my entire adult life..that was involved , and fellow crew members and co-workers of mine who were victims on 9/11

i would like to respond to this pathetic senator!..please pm me if you have a address ( i just need a street name and zip code..)

thanks !!

fly

[ima_sinnic]

39. use the form in this link

http://gregg.senate.gov/sitepages/contact.cfm

it asked my address but did not stop me from sending (I live in Florida). If for some reason that does not work, you can look around on the web and find a business with a NH address.

I notice on this page it says only NH residents will get a response, but I did get one acknowledging that the message was received but that NH residents would get a reply in the mail.

[PinkyisBlue]

92. Gregg is my Senator and he never sends a response.

I've sent both him and Sununu various e-mails, and Sununu responds but Gregg never does. I have even telephoned Gregg's Washington, DC Senate office; the staff person never asked my name or address, so it's obvious they weren't planning to respond. Gregg is so pompous; he probably figures he doesn't need to answer to people who question him or disagree with him. He has Diebold on his team, what else does he need?

[CJCRANE]

29. I don't

see how what he said is wrong. Makes sense to me.

Here's a good article I found about 9/11 recently (no mention of controlled demolitions etc):

The Propaganda Preparation for 9/11

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP206A.html

Excerpt:

"The events of September 11 were masterminded by those who were in the best position to manage the consequences - namely, those most able to manage the flow of information, those most able to coordinate all the elements necessary for the perpetration of a successful operation (subverting airport security, guiding the planes to their specific targets), and most significantly, those who stood to reasonably benefit in the aftermath. Conspiracies, by their very nature, are not crimes of passion. They may involve rational, albeit cold-blooded, attempts to achieve a desired end by employing the most effective means available. It is for this reason that "mainstream" terror groups like Hamas and Hizbullah largely avoid attacking American interests where such attacks would serve no practical interest."

[DemonFighterLives]

30. Clampdown

We must not have questions about the official version of 911!
For National Security reasons, big brother must not be challenged.

The thought police will be on this like stink on sh*t.
:dem:

[formercia]

32. How it began...

If you research the names in this article, you will find many to be Knights of Malta, including Bush 41 (hon.)


PRINCES OF PLUNDER

http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/princes_of_plunder.htm

THE SHAPE OF TREACHERY AND THE BRIDGE AT ARNHEM

By David Guyatt

If President George W Bush has his way, then the spread of the American system of democracy will continue to proliferate around the world. There are those, however, who argue that the American form of democracy has little to do with genuine democratic representation but rather more closely resembles a revolving fascist dictatorship beholden to the interests of a wealthy elite and big business. <1>

This form of government, it is argued, has as its underlying model the European Synarchist movement that was founded in the 1870's, by Joseph Alexandre Saint-Yves d'Alveydre. St Yves considered the medieval Knights Templars to be ultimate Synarchists of their time and consequently drew on Templar ideals when formulating his ideas.

St Yves movement came to the fore in the early 1920's, following the end of WWI and the signing of the Versailles Treaty <2> . In its essence, Synarchy advocates that government be run by a secret society or cabal - an elite of enlightened initiates who rule from behind the scenes. <3> As authors Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince describe it: …it therefore doesn't matter which political party holds power in a state - or even what political system that state has. Synarchists would step in and take control of the key state institutions. <4>

[DemonFighterLives]

36. Yes indeed

:thumbsup:
Skull and Boners
http://www.ctrl.org/boodleboys/

Don't miss part 2 if you haven't seen these.
:dem:

[texpatriot2004]

33. I agree 100% w/ the Prof. and good idea to explore 9-11 in those

terms. Furthermore, I don't agree that there are "limits to Academic freedom and freedom of speech."

[screembloodymurder]

34. I agree.

I'm 100% behind the prof and furthermore to call for limitations on free speech (when it goes against the majority's thinking) is treason. That kind of thinking gave us Hitler and Nazis Germany.

[leesa]

35. The fantasy of 19 Muslims with boxcutters is an affront to MY sensibilities

[stepnw1f]

37. GOP Using the Positions in Power to Stifle Freedom of Speech

once again. Kinda like the media, but done more honestly.

[rman]

40. "Goebbels was in favor of freedom of speech for views he liked, ...

so was Stalin. If you are in favor of freedom of speech, then you are in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise."

- Noam Chomsky (Manufacturing Consent)

[dfgrbac]

41. Now Proven - 9/11 was an INSIDE JOB!

After expert analysis of 9/11 debris and the videos of the falling WTC buildings, there is no doubt that 9/11 was an inside job. Professor Steven Jones of Brigham Young University has proved that the demolition explosive called thermate was used to bring down the towers and building 7. This explosive is not used for any other purpose, so there is no other reason for it to be found in the WTC debris. My friends, this is the smoking gun for 9/11! And the best proof of controlled demolition is building 7 which was not hit by anything.

Here is Dr. Jones' paper on his investigation.

This site has a video of Dr. Jones explaining what he has found - it's 2 hours long, but worth it for the information he gives.

And Alex Jones moderated a symposium panel discussion on this that was telecast on CSPAN on July 29th. This is also two hours. The video archive is still available.

[allisonthegreat]

56. this was talked about on coasttocoast am last night

just briefly..during open lines caller called in and stated he didn't believe that the government had anything to do with 9/11. Art Bell agreed. i disagree with both of them and have for a long time. I think there is enough evidence now for inquiry. I wish I had seen the Alex Jones segment on C-Span.
I think it is that no one wants to believe that the government is as diabolical as this. One can only ponder the reasoning by such a catastrophic disaster and to put thousands to death...

[54anickel]

42. Hmmm, why doesn't that logic apply to "Intelligent Design"?

...taxpayer dollars to take positions that are generally an affront to the sensibility of most all Americans

There's plenty of "crap" taught at public universities these days - their economics and business ethics classes could be considered an affront to most all Americans sense of responsiblity and social justice too. :eyes:

So sad that they claim to promote critical thinking skills when it seems to me it's becoming just the opposite these days.

[mike_c]

43. politicians-- especially conservatives-- calling for limitations...

...of constitutional guarantees-- hmmm, anyone see a pattern here? Just who really hates us for our freedom?

[IChing]

46. " There are limitations to academic freedom and freedom of speech"

except when I am talking but anyone else's is up to my derision

[nolabels]

50. I think most of the citizenry would be in favor of limits on politicians

Sounds like a strange coincidence :shrug:

[slay]

49. We need a new 9/11 investigation - a real one this time!

All the evidence I've seen points to LIHOP or MIHOP. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure of all the facts, but I am 100% sure we need a new investigation.

[pauldp]

60. Absolutely. A point of unity among most on this board.

Whether you are MIHOP, LIHOP, criminal negligence
or incompetence a new investigation is essential,
and I'm sure it would bring down this cabal of criminals.
The question is who would conduct it?

[truedelphi]

68. I'm real DENSE about acronyms

MIHOP LIHOP

explain what the term mean, please?

[NewHampshireDem]

69. MIHOP=Made It Happen On Purpose, LIHOP=Let It Happen n/t

[VegasWolf]

52. The fantasy of burning kerosene bringing down TWO massively steel

and concrete reinforced buildings collapsing in what appears to be a purely vertically controlled demolition boggles my mind. Only Bushco could could come up with a plot this implausible.

[wildbilln864]

59. yes and don't...

forget that there were three buildings which totaly collapsed that day and that third one wasn't hit by any plane!
We've all been played like old violins.
Every move they've made has been based on 911! Iraq! NSA spying on Americans! Violating the FISA law! Torture! Rendition! Secret Prisons! Abu Ghraib! They're constantly lying about everything! And it's all a result of the lie that is 911!

[The Straight Story]

65. Ummm, about wtc7

It was damaged, as were other buildings surrounded. They did demolish those other buildings and would have demolished 7 if it had still been standing due to the extent of the damage.

So why would they demolish it in the thick of things or deny they did demolish it?

Makes not sense for it to be a conspiracy.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

74. WTC 7 collapsed out of grief at losing its two life-long companions

It makes about as much sense as any other reason I've read about why WTC 7 collapsed. Let's see what the Commission's report says about WTC 7 . . . oh, that's right, it omits any reference to WTC 7. No harm, no foul.

[readmoreoften]

81. Yes, the others burned longer and stronger and did not collapse.

That's because steel structures don't collapse from fire. Buildings 5 and 6 were closer to the towers than 7 and sustained more damage. I don't know why they demolished it. But they did. It's plain as the nose on our collective face. Why they did it is a mystery. But that doesn't change the fact that they did it.

[The Straight Story]

87. 7 was bigger than the others iirc

and thus would have had more stress on it. Just my 2 cents.

[Usrename]

102. Asbestos liability.

Big dollars $$$$

[ananda]

104. Didn't building 7 contain..

.. the offices of someone important, like O'Neill?

[Recursion]

106. I thought the biggest predictor of a buildings' collapse that day...

... was whether or not it was owned by Larry Silverstein. ie, 100% of the buildings in the complex owned by Silverstein collapsed that day, and 0% of the buildings not owned by Silverstein collapsed that day.

[Junkdrawer]

78. And yet anyone who questions the Convention Myth will be persecuted...

much as anyone who questions the Virgin Birth.

[Charlie Brown]

58. It sounds like the critics are misconstruing what he's told his class

According to the students, Woodward merely offered alternative ways to look at Sept. 11, and said that he believed there should be more investigation of what happened. Everything else he brought up he made clear were just his opinions, and nothing more. That's hardly an endorsement of conspiracy theories. If the Iraq vet from the class is okay with how the guy teaches, then certainly Gregg should be.

from the article:

One of the students in Woodward's political psychology class where the topic came up was Zack Bazzi, a UNH psychology major and National Guardsman who served in Iraq.

"Bazzi said it was common for Woodward to share "different versions of different events in history" in the upper-level course. "He certainly doesn't try to indoctrinate the kids," he said. "He just puts it out there."

Bazzi said Woodward was "systematically careful" when he shared his own, often controversial, views on any topic. "I will stress he would always present this as his opinion, and he'll acknowledge it's controversial, he'll acknowledge a lot of people think he's out there. Then he'll present it and move on."

What did Woodward say about Sept. 11th? "From my recollection, he said the government's theory on it is wrong and it's flawed and he thinks there are alternative theories to be explored," Bazzi said. "From my recollection, not one person in the class agreed with him."

Woodward said he hopes to develop a course that would explore Sept. 11th in psychological terms. But because of the sensitive nature of the topic, he would seek guidance from his department chairman and his dean before he proceeds.

[NewHampshireDem]

61. *GASP*

That would be sooo unlike the rightwing gasbags. </sacrasm>

And it must be just a coincidence that classes at UNH start TOMORROW ... and I'm sure that the whole thing has nothing to do with the 700+ person strong protest against the Greatest President Ever that took place just over the border yesterday.

</sarcasm>

Ooops ... there it goes. Damn typos. :)

[savemefromdumbya]

66. That's right sweep it under the carpet!

It's only a matter of time til the excrement hits the fan over 911? Who will pardon Bush and Cheney?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bamacrat]

70. Is it just me or are a lot of people starting say this?

seems like Ive heard more than this guy suggest the government was behind it. Im reading "Armed Madhouse" right now by Greg Palast, he discusses the real possibility we did it.

[Lindacooks]

71. Yeah, this is what 'freedom of speech' means to Repukes:

They get to say anything they want, no matter how false or slanderous, and they get away with it.

Anybody who criticizes them or speaks the truth is called a traitor and told to shut up.

[nicknameless]

73. Limitations on 9-11 discussion okay ONLY if they stifle dissent.

But this garbage is fine?:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1992136

"ABC docudrama will blame Clinton and Dems for 9/11."

[Taxloss]

75. Entertaining thread.

Teaching creationism is of course frowned upon here, but some myths are treated more leniently ...

[salvorhardin]

76. His list of publications screams postmodernist

At least on the face of it. I wouldn't want to say more without actually reading his work though.

William Woodward earned his Ph.D. at Yale University in 1975.

His research focuses on psychology in relation to other disciplines. He has a long-standing interest in scientific biography of men and women in psychology, i.e., how their research, theoretical development, professional and private lives came together. Currently he is working on a human ecological account of the Rwandan genocide and a proposal for public policy in Central Africa. He has previously edited a multi-faceted account of B. F. Skinner, as well as books on psychology in 19th and 20th century thought and society. His undergraduate teaching deals with social issues of family therapy, moral development, and civil rights at the sophomore level, and psychoanalysis, behaviorism, and Gestalt social psychology at the senior level.

He also teaches case studies in environmental psychology on the Seacoast of New Hampshire. During the 1980's he spearheaded summer institutes in East Germany and edited a book on science studies there. He occasionally teaches a course on psychology and 'race' and he has mentored undergraduate papers involving the history of counseling and mental health among minorities.
http://www.unh.edu/psychology/faculty/fac_woodward.htm

[mirandapriestly]

83. The myth of Islamic extremists fooling NORAD, the Air Force

and the FAA is a terrible myth, I agree. How many thousands have died in the ME as a result of it? No charges have ever been brought and no case proved against any of them. In fact , as the movie seems to be suggesting there are quite a few unanswered questions.

[Jazz2006]

77. I think it's dumb to try to stifle discussion

Frankly, I think the guy should play the loose change video for the class and see how long it takes for them to tear it apart (once they stop laughing at how badly done it is and once they get past their anger at how appallingly and mockingly it treats the victims and their families, and start to deconstruct all of its lies, distortions and nonsense). Shouldn't take them long to dismantle it piece by piece.

Who cares if the guy wants to teach a course on the psychology of 9/11 and conspiracies, etc.? Most people are smart enough to listen to and to study alternative theories and reject the ones that are not backed up by facts and evidence. In fact, people should listen to and study alternative theories and apply critical thinking skills to them. When that is done with the current conspiracy theories advocated by the 'scholars' and the 'truthiness seekers', they all fall down.

There are many things that the government is covering up about 9/11. Maybe once the conspiracy theories are put to bed, we can get on with uncovering the truth.

[petgoat]

79. Why must CTers be Disposed of Before You Can Seek Truth?

hmmmmmm?

Yes. I must eat this chocolate cake before I can read the
newspaper. Must go the beach before I can take a shower.
And drink this wine before I go for a jog.

[Jazz2006]

84. I did not suggest that CTers should be disposed of.

That would be murder and I would certainly never advocate that.

The conspiracy theories such as controlled demolitions, pod planes, missiles hitting the pentagon, faked body parts at Shanksville, the no-plane theories, the extra-plane theories, etc., give the neocon administration the cover it needs to not have to answer a single thing.

The admin just brushes off all legitimate questions along with the conpiracy garbage and they get away with it because it's easy for them to point and laugh and say, "there's no need to respond to a bunch of crazy conspiracy theories" and you know, people can understand that. Why bother talking to those who claim there were no planes but holograms, that all of the news footage was faked, that all of the witnesses are lying, that the passengers are all in on the conspiracy and are either living somewhere else while duping their families and loved ones or else they were dumped at sea or somthing, that the rescue and cleanup workers in Shanksville are all lying because there was no plane crash there, that FDNY was in on killing 343 of their colleagues to make a snuff film, etc. etc. etc.?

Who can blame them for not responding to stuff like that?

Thus, they get away with not having to answer anything at all as a result.

That's why I said that the conspiracy theories should be put to bed. (Not that conspiracy theorists should be disposed of).

[IChing]

88. OK first just show me the missing tapes from the pentagon

that would be a starter, and I don't mean the parking lot one.

You know of course the ones that I am talking about!
The ones taken by government agents from various locations and never released.

[Jazz2006]

90. Feel free to send in an FOIA request for them.

And then perhaps address what I actually said in my post, if you like.

Edit to add: a piece of advice when formulating your FOIA request, be sure that the wording does not restrict your request to those showing the airplane impacting the building. Try to frame your request more broadly than those have gone before so that you can obtain as many of the videos as possible. Of the 85 videos, apparently 56 of them do not show the Pentagon building, the crash site or the impact of flight 77; of the remaining 29, 16 do not show the crash site or the impact; of the remaining 13, which apparently do show the crash site, 12 of them only show it after the fact.

So, just saying that when you write your request, try to keep it broad enough that you won't be shut down due to the restrictive wording of your request.

Good luck to you.

[IChing]

93. thanks out of the 85 tapes only two were released the others were

viewed by the FBI and not released.


September 9, 2005: Kahn files a REPLY BRIEF IN FURTHER SUPPORT OF DEFENDANT"S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT

September 9, 2005: Special Agent Jacqueline Maguire of the FBI's Counterterrorism Division files a DECLARATION describing her search for records responsive to Bingham's FOIA request. Maguire admits to determining that 85 videotapes in the FBI's possession are "potentially responsive" the the request, that she personally viewed 29 of the tapes, and that she located only one videotape that showed the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon. Maguire also refers to "one videotape taken from a closed circuit television at a Doubletree Hotel in Arlington Virginia," but states that it did not show the impact of Flight 77.

September 26, 2005: Hodes files a request seeking "copies of 85 videotapes in the possession of the FBI described in the declaration of Special Agent Jacqueline Maguire dated September 7, 2005.

October 20, 2005: The DOJ sends a letter to Hodes claiming that the requested material is exempt.

October 24, 2005: Hodes appeals the DOJ's October 20 claim that its material is exempt.

February 22, 2006: Judicial Watch, Inc. files a lawsuit in the United States District Court for the Distrct of Columbia seeking declaratory and injunctive relief against the Department of Defense for its refusal to disclose records sought under the FOIA request.

May 5, 2006: Judge Friedman orders the defendants to show cause on or before May 26, 2006 why their motion for summary judgment should not be denied as moot, noting that the criminal proceedings against Moussaoui have ended.

May 16, 2006: Judicial Watch obtains two videos from the DOD, and posts them on their website. The site is down for about half of the day due to demand.

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/footage.html

[Jazz2006]

95. Yes, that's why I suggested that you send in an FOIA request with

broader parameters in the request. It is easy for them claim that things are non-responsive to the request when the request is too narrow. So, when you send yours in, don't confine it to videos that show the impact.

Any time you want to get back to my initial post, though, please do so.

[angryxyouth]

82. These Ideas are only radical if you are still blind

I was in the demolition business for years. I did a walk thru of one meridian plaza in Phila after the fire. That building after burning for something like 18 hours was more or less solid except for some warped steel beams towards the top of the building. Steel buildings do not fall in their foot prints with out prep, not to mention 3 building perfectly. Science and technology will solve this mystery.
I personally would love to talk to the operating engineers and teamsters to ask what they loaded and hauled. :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[wildbilln864]

85. someone with...

expertise! Cool angryx. Are you familiar with thermite or thermate?

[angryxyouth]

108. Thermate is a reactive metal that burns so hot it can cut

through steel like a hot knife through butter. Reactive metals are crazy once they ignite. I Once had a titanium heat exchanger catch fire from a spark from a near by torch. This thing was huge,and burned white until there was almost nothing left but what looked like volcanic rock.

Ordinarily thermate would be used to cut a column in two places, high and low. the cuts would be at roughly 45 degree angles. a shaped charge would be used to knock the cut piece out, giving the column room to fall.

I would prep a building in much the same way except that instead of explosives, I would prep all of the steel columns with torches. at the bottom level I would pull the centerpieces out using cable and a loader.

[angryxyouth]

109. Sorry Mixed up theremite and thermate

[wildbilln864]

113. angryx, please could you...

speculate about a question I have?
If you shut down the power from the 50th floor up and had 36 hours. Could you rig the towers to collapse? How many men would be needed? How would you guess this could be accomplished if it could be? Thanks in advance and no problem if you decline to speculate.
Bill

[angryxyouth]

114. This is the real mind f*** for me.

There are 3 buildings that we are talking about. I do not know how many floors were involved as far as pre set "explosives". I would guess at least every other floor, and the basement.
Access would have to be through the elevator shafts, all interior columns would have to be involved.in an ideal world you would knock off some of the fire proofing to expose the steel. But you do not need shaped charges for all of them, because once the building started to move the cut-outs from the thermite would fall out. All charges would have to be hardwired, I would think,because radio frequencies could set off radio detonators. phone lines could have been tied in. 36 hours to rig 3 building would be impossible. The manpower would have to be a well trained army. This makes my head spin. If you could overkill everything and not be precise and neat, anything is possible. There are very few people who could engineer this kind of thing.
CDI who did the clean up is probably the most capable.

[wildbilln864]

117. Well angryx...

thanks for the response! What if building 7 was rigged at a different time? Did you consider this with the plan being just rigging buildings 1 and 2 from the fiftieth floor on up? Just trying to be clear.
OK. You'd probably know more about it than most here I'd think! Thanks again.

[angryxyouth]

118. I was involved with conventional demolition

Anytime we used explosives which was very rare, we sub contracted it out to CDI. The first real skyscrapers to come down in this way were wtc 1 & 2. So the only ones who really know how it was done, did it. I don't understand why you start your question with the 50th. floor, When you watch the footage it is smooth sailing all the way down; Also that would mean that there would have been a lot of bolts shearing. When bolts shear they go like bullets. I do not remember any reports of damage to people or buildings near the WTCs from bolts. These would be huge bolts too! Load bearing steel at the lower floors would be heaver then that at the top, I just don't see the fall to be so perfectly straight if it wasn't controlled all the way down. Steel in smaller structures likes to twist,topple and bend, and Elevator shafts and stairwells are notorious sticking points in a mechanical fell if they are not prepared well enough. Believe me it is not fun going back into a building to cut steel with a torch after you have already given it a tug. As hard as the rigging of these buildings is for me to get my head around, the perfect fell, or 3, without the use of explosives is even harder to get my mind around. I am trying to get a dialog started with some old friends and family still in the business and are members of what used to be the NADC and is now the NDA. There is also a group of lawyers in my area who are trying to get a movement for truth going. I will be active with them. Sorry if this has been a little disjointed, I am trying to edit a lot of information.:yourock:

[wildbilln864]

119. Thanks again angryx...

I just used the 50th floor and up because that's whre the article stated that the power was down from the 50th on up.
I have to agree though! It was a steady obliteration all the way down it seemed. Except 7 seemed to loose it's bottom and fall down.
And best wishes with your efforts too!

[readmoreoften]

89. yes, please, get involved.

we need more people involved in demolition to comment on the strange collapse of building 7

[Th1onein]

91. I very much doubt the Repugs want to talk about this at all.

No, this won't be on The Factor. Nope. You bring it up, it becomes an issue; part of the agenda. The best thing to do is shut up those who are talking about it.

[Rex]

94. So Bob Jones 'University' can pump out thousands of dittoheads

and who gets all up in arms about that? Not the RW. Not the M$M. Not Congress. :eyes:

[autorank]

96. Judd Gregg helped bring us the worst disaster...Bush...end his tenure...

...soon. He's a real problem.

[NewHampshireDem]

98. UPDATED: When the news becomes the news

It really is quite sad ... on the front page (http://www.theunionleader.com/) there's a picture of the professor right next to a picture of the plane hitting the first tower. The headline: "UNH prof provokes 9/11 firestorm." Disgusting. It makes it sound as though the professor set the WTC on fire ... it really must be seen to be believed.

http://www.theunionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=UNH+prof+provokes+9%2f11+firestorm&articleId=0116a668-84fd-4e3e-815a-54ccc77e167f

The article then goes on the share pretty much 90% responses from freeper-type morans

[Grateful for Hope]

100. That is sad

though, not entirely unexpected. The truth WILL win out in the end, though. We can count on it.

[whistle]

116. Is it an affront to the sensibility of most all Americans to seek and...

...teach the truth? Or is an affront to the sensibility of most all Americans when the truth is suppressed?