Iraqi citizenship: Anyone but Israelis

[drdon326]

The draft of Iraq's new constitution specifically excludes Israelis from obtaining citizenship.

The document , updated July 20, says:


"Any individual with another nationality (except for Israel) may obtain Iraqi nationality after a period of residency inside the borders of Iraq of not less than ten years for an Arab or twenty years for any other nationality, as long as he has good character and behavior, and has no criminal judgment against him from the Iraqi authorities during the time of his residency on the territory of the Iraqi republic.

The draft bill of rights also says an Iraqi can have more than one citizenship "as the nationality is not Israeli."

The Shiite, Kurdish and Sunni framers of Iraq's constitution are sharply divided on major issues, including the country's identity as an Arab nation and the role of Islam and federalism, some members have said privately according to the Associated Press.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45407

............................................................

1700 dead americans
10,000 injured or maimed

for this ?

[jimshoes]

1. Let Freedom Reign.

Mission Accomplished and all that. Phhhhtttt.

[newyorican]

2. I didn't know...

we invaded for the right of Israelis to get Iraqi citizenship.

[H5N1]

4. I guess some folks think so

[Coastie for Truth]

9. Consistency

The appender has previously posted at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=96332&mesg_id=96332

As pointed out in that , it is the sovereign right of a sovereign state to define its standard for citizenship narrowly or broadly. So, I have no prolem with this decision.

Only question - as applied to the approximately 125,000 (+/-) Iraqi Jewish refugees in Israel - if they and their descendants will hence forth and in the future be denied the opportunity to reclaim their Iraqi citizenship, does this prejudice the Palestinian's' "Right of Return?"

[newyorican]

18. What Iraqis do...

or don't do in regards to relations with Israel has nothing to do with relations or policies with Palestinians (Iraqi or Israeli).

It does, however, affect relations between Iraq and Israel. Rightfully so. Does Israel have any restrictions on Iraqi Arabs becoming citizens? I don't know.

As to your statement on Palestinian ROR, I find your comment to be most disingenuous. Israeli leaders and posters in this forum have repeatedly asserted that Palestinian ROR is a dead issue. Do actions by a sovereign Iraqi government make the issue deader than dead?

If you insist on some nonsensical linkage, a more logical approach is to ask whether the Israeli stance on Palestinian ROR has affected the relations and/or decisions of the new Iraqi government concerning restrictions on citizenship. One did come before the other, after all.

[Coastie for Truth]

52. Emotionally relevant

Maybe politically relevant

Totally legally irrelevant as a matter of customary international law and international humanitarian law.

[Jim Sagle]

3. But....but...but THAT would mean the portrait of the war as an Israeli

plot is (gasp!) PURE HORSESHIT!

And I hope we can similarly dispose of the portrait of Paul Woofowitless as devil with horns and fangs. Wolfie could'nt conspire piss out of a boot if PNAC instructions were written on the heel.

[TomClash]

5. Oh, gee, what a shame

Let's overthrow the Iraqi government now.:eyes:

[madrchsod]

6. interesting they were before the usa took over

well i mean the jews and christians....

[Coastie for Truth]

10. No. The Jews fled in the 1940's.

and the Chaldean Christians have been emigrating for some time - picked up when the Baathists took over.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. How fun!

Wasn't it just a few days ago we were treated to charges of racism about Israel's immigration policies, now this. Yet, it seems some might think this type of discrimination is A-OK! Why am I not in the least bit surprised?

[drdon326]

8. Oooo....oooo....ooooo....pick me Monte !!

I know why your not in the least surprised.

[Jim Sagle]

11. You just don't GET it.

Some victims are moreless equal than others. ;-)

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Are you for real?????

Who are these 'some people' from the other thread who might seem to think discrimination is okay? Coastie's the only one who might come close and he points out that he's consistant with it because he thinks it's a sovereignty issue. Accusing other posters of being okay with discrimination is a really serious accusation and you should stop making up this stuff...

Violet..

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Very real

I didn't say people from the other thread seem to think discrimination is OK. Reread what I wrote. As for making stuff up...well...

[Violet_Crumble]

14. No-one is saying it's okay...

As I seem to be missing this person who seems to think that discrimination is okay if it's against Jews, feel free to point out who. Unless you can do that and explain how they seem to be saying discrimination is okay, I think you are making up stuff in this instance...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Nice try...

You know it is "illegal" to call people out. Also, I didn't say discrimination against Jews. The discussion is about discrimination against Israelis. You can think I am making it up all you want, I just don't think you are looking.

On edit...P.S. Don't look for the word "OK." It would be a shame to waste time looking for the word "OK."

[Jim Sagle]

16. Great....NOW you tell me.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyorican]

19. No...

no one said it was "A-OK". No one even implied it.

Someone is blowing smoke out of something. The twisting, pretzel logic is quite amusing.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. I know...

n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Tsk, tsk....

Seriously VC, you should look deeper into other posts as you seem to like to do with my posts.

"As for discrimination against Jews, I'm going on what you wrote: 'Yet, it seems some might think this type of discrimination is A-OK! Why am I not in the least bit surprised?' Aren't you often in the habit of conflating the terms 'Israeli' and 'Jew'?"

You obviously were not going on what I wrote. You read my post, and then re-worded it to fit your needs. Then, you accuse me of often conflating Israeli and Jew in an attempt to explain why you changed my wording in your other post. It is a shame you don't see it...but, them's the breaks.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Then maybe you should spell it out for us dummies?

Exactly why weren't you surprised, bta? Are you telling me you haven't conflated the terms 'Israeli' and 'Jew' here in this forum at times?


Now back to yr false claims about some posters in this thread. Should I stop bothering to check my inbox? There's nothing there yet, which is no surprise, considering not one person said or even implied discrimination against Israelis was A-OK...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Enough

I see it, you don't, and that is a shame. So, don't bother checking your PM's...if you really can't see it, then...well, there is no point.

As for conflating, as I have always maintained, you can think what ever you please, it is a free board after all. I try to be as careful as I can not to conflate the two...also another DU I/P rule. I am sure I have slipped up a few times, but you make it sound if it is a regular thing.

I won't discuss this with you further. You aren't seeing it and to to continue this bantering would be a shame. But, I am interested in your take on the actual OP.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. I suggest you stop making false accusations...

As I said making false accusations that other DUers think discrimination is A-OK is a particularly nasty and offensive thing to do. And it was a false accusation, bta. There's not one single post here that even implies it's okay, let alone the 'some' that you falsely claimed..

So, I missed yr explanation as to why you weren't surprised. No surprises there, of course.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. Answer, please.

But, I am interested in your take on the actual OP.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. I'm still waiting for yrs...

And the PM with the posts that you were referring to...

Until then, you get zero...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

32. That says a lot.

What a shame.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Yep, it says I'd like you to answer my questions...

If you think it says anything else but that, yr very wrong...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

34. As are you.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. But I've already answered the question you asked...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x96332#96454

Is there something unclear about my comment: 'I'm consistent on what I think of any law that excludes or discriminates against a specific group of people based on their ethnicity, relgion, existing nationality, etc - the laws are racist and shouldn't exist...'?

Or does that somehow get morphed through an IsraelFirstTextFilter so it ends up reading: 'I think laws that discriminate against Israelis are A-OK!!'? ;)

Violet....

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Uh, I answered yr question, bta...

You asked what my take on the OP was because you were 'interested' in knowing. A simple "yes" or "no" would not have sufficed and would have made zero sense. I told you that my statement in the thread from yesterday answered the question you asked. If there's anything yr finding confusing in that statement, I'm quite happy to expand on it for you, but to me my statement is completely unambiguous and clear. Just a bit of a friendly hint here, bta, but it helps when asking people questions to have a desire to be genuinelly interested in what their stance is. This reminds me of an episode in this forum a long time ago when some now banned poster demanded that I voice my opposition to suicide bombings, and when I did told me that I was full of shit because I didn't use the complete list of outraged adjectives he used. Don't fall into that trap..

btw, I never implied you were talking about *me* in yr post where you falsely accused 'some people' in this thread of saying or implying that discrimination against Israelis is A-OK. Considering I hadn't posted in the thread prior to yr post making those accusations, I knew you weren't talking about *me*...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

45. And still with the insults

Here is some advice for you, VC, don't presume to know what I think. If I ask a question, I want answer and am interested in what the response is. Also, veiled threats are very unbecoming.

BTW...you did imply I was talking about you because of your crack about the "IsraeliFirst" filter.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. I'm not insulting you at all...

Okay, here's what I see as the problem. You asked a question and I gave you an answer, along with an invitation to tell me what's not clear about it. Instead of accepting my answer or asking anything about it, you said: 'twist it any way you like'. So, I'll ask again. What was unclear about my statement that would lead you to wonder about what my stance would be in the case of discrimination shown against Israelis?

No, bta. I implied nothing of the sort. I was making a joke based on the false accusation you'd made about some posters in this thread...

On a side-note, would it be too much to ask for you to stop with the accusations that I'm throwing insults at you? I've done nothing of the sort, and it's starting to get a bit irritating and isn't at all conducive to any sort of constructive discussion, which after all is why yr here, right?


Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

53. I am not okay with "discrimination"

Because I respect the sovereign rights of sovereign states as to CITIZENSHIP - but I take a very hard, absolutist, line - out there with (beyond) the ICRC (International Commission of the Red Cross/Red Crescent) on ASYLUM --- no more S/S Saint Louis tragedies.

I also believe that discrimination in the granting of ASYLUM -- as distinguished from CITIZENSHIP--- is a violation of several Geneva Conventions (spelled out on the ICRC web site) and of IHL generally (also as spelled out on the ICRC web site). Under certain cicumstances denial of ASYLUM may, in my opinion, be a war crime.

NO MORE STEAM SHIP SAINT LOUIS TRAGEDIES

[Violet_Crumble]

71. I'll die of shock if you respect sovereign rights in all cases.....

The Nuremburg Laws being the obvious one that comes to mind when it comes to a sovereign state and citizenship laws...

This particular thread isn't about asylum, but about citizenship, btw...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

73. We are specifically talking about acquisition of citizenship by marriage

(id est, "family unification") in our sub-thread about Israeli citizenship. In this thread we are talking about stripping of "nationality" by virtue of emigration.

I live in Santa Clara County CA - tell me something I don't know about "acquisition of citizenship by marriage."

"Beautiful Russian Brides"

"Beautiful Filipino Brides"

"Acquisition of citizenship by marriage" is the biggest citizenship scam and fraud going.

The same brokers who arrange "acquisition of citizenship by marriage" arranged temporary marriage are frequently tied in with sex trafficking and white slaving.

Come on - I thought you were a feminist.

And your dragging in of Nazi Nuremberg Laws is a low blow - below what I would expect of a self identified Progressive.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Nope, not in this thread you weren't...

Here's what you said further up in this thread: 'As pointed out in that in this forum, it is the sovereign right of a sovereign state to define its standard for citizenship narrowly or broadly. So, I have no prolem with this decision.'

The draft of Iraq's new constitution isn't talking about acquiring citizenship by marriage, Coastie. And apart from that, it'd make no sense at all if you were making the argument that it's the sovereign right of a sovereign state to define its standard for citizenship narrowly or broadly, but only when it comes to acquiring citizenship through marriage. That would lead to the question, what's so special about marriage that the sovereign right of a state becomes sancrosanct that isn't special about gaining or retaining citizenship any other way?


No, mentioning the obvious example of the Nuremberg Laws isn't a low blow - it's an obvious example of where the so-called sovereign rights of a state go beserk and descend into racism...

btw, aren't the sovereign rights of countries limited? Australia only gave full citizenship to Aboriginals in the late 1960's, and that was prompted by the worry that Australia might become an international pariah in the same way South Africa became...


Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

75. See the edit N/T

[Violet_Crumble]

76. And?

How does that explain what you said earlier in this thread? Also, what's so special about marriage that a state suddenly has the sovereign rights argument thrown around, yet not when it comes to acquiring citizenship any other way...

btw, the Iraqi constitution is not talking about stripping citizenship, it's talking about denying citizenship to people who hold Israeli citizenship. Two very different things...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

77. Forget the web and Wikipedia

Get a good book on International Law (Henkin is one) -- and read the fine print foot notes on "Acquisition of Citizenship" - look for buzz words such as "marriage" and "spouse" and "family" and "family unification" -- and read the various referenced statutes and treaties and treatises.

Henkin's book is written at several levels (from the bold face paragraph at the beginning of each section to the fine print footnotes)

As to Iraq's law -- in operation, it is about stripping citizenship from Iraqi Jews who fled, and about denying citizenship to children of such refugees. Other hypotheticals are just that - hypotheticals of academic law school class room and web chat room interest.

I shall take your comments - or non-comments - as a concession that the proposed Iraqi provisions are in a league with the Nuremberg laws - and will (at least temporarily) avoid trashing my Vegemite.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. I'm not using the web or wikipedia...

And yr going to have to sit there and explain why states have inalienable sovereign rights over granting citizenship ONLY when it comes to marriage, and why thinking that you made the comment you made earlier in this thread...

No, the draft constitution says nothing about stripping citizenship. It talks about acquiring citizenship, which is a completely different thing...

Actually they were comments and they in no way, shape or form were a concession that the draft Iraqi constitution is in the same league as the Nuremburg Laws, and you know full well why I asked you about the Nuremberg Laws, because I explained it to you in the post you replied to...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

79. What are you talking about

And yr going to have to sit there and explain why states have inalienable sovereign rights over granting citizenship ONLY when it comes to marriage, and why thinking that you made the comment you made earlier in this thread...

If you are going to deliberately misquote and misinterpret, I shall deem our dialog at end.

[Violet_Crumble]

80. You claimed citizenship by marriage was different...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but after you'd said that states have sovereign rights when it comes to citizenship, I pointed out the Nuremberg Laws as an example of a citizenship law by a sovereign state that any person should have no difficulty in saying is racist. You replied by saying 'we are specifically talking about acquisition of citizenship acquired by marriage', which we weren't in this thread, and then going on about footnotes in a Henkin book that backs up yr claim that marriage is a different kettle of fish...

So what it boils down to is you either believe that sovereign states have an inalienable right to have whatever citizenship laws they want, in which case the Nuremberg Laws would prove you wrong, because Nazi Germany did not have the right to create those laws...

Violet...

[IndianaGreen]

24. The pro-Israel posters supported the invasion of Iraq!

If Iraq becomes a clone of Iran, the fault lies squarely on all of those that supported Bush's invasion of Iraq, whether they live in the US or in Israel.

Get ready to reap the whirlwind!

[Behind the Aegis]

25. What?!

I never supported the invasion of Iraq! So, do you think this is a fair law?

[IndianaGreen]

29. I opposed the invasion of Iraq

just as oppose the regime that the US has put in power in Baghdad.

The US must withdraw from Iraq immediately and unconditionally. It is only after a US withdrawal that the Iraqis will be able to sort things out without worrying about American bombs falling on their heads.

If you think this draft of the Iraqi constitution sucks, a constitution that also takes away all of women's rights gained under the Baathists and puts them under Sharia law, then perhaps we will be better off putting Iraq back in the same condition it was before March 2003.

The last I heard, Israel had a similar provision being proposed by the ruling coalition in the Knesset.

All of this proves is that Israel is becoming as intolerant and racist as her Arab neighbors. So why does the US continue to use the veto in the UN Security Council to protect a country that is just as bad as all the other countries in the Middle East when it comes to human rights and equality for all of its citizens?

[Behind the Aegis]

31. I didn't ask if you opposed the war.

Do you have a problem with the new Iraqi law?

On edit: Were you having a MAALOX moment?

[IndianaGreen]

35. I have a problem with the Iraq the US has created

The US should get out of Iraq at once, and leave the Middle East altogether!

Put Saddam back in power and give him Jenna Bush in payment for all the troubles we caused him. Saddam will smash Al-Qaeda and the religious fanatics that our stupid invasion in Iraq has brought to power.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. Non-answer

Do you think it is problematic that Iraq will not allow Israelis to become citizens?

[IndianaGreen]

38. I don't think the current Iraqi regime should be in power at all

You should know that the moment we took Saddam out it opened the door to an Islamic Republic heavily influenced by Iran. The shit that you are complaining about is the shit you get when you let religious pukes run a country.

Israel wanted the US to invade Iraq, so if Israel is unhappy about a racist and misogynist Iraqi constitution for the new Islamic Iraq, then Israel has no one to blame for herself.

US troops out of Iraq, and these clowns in power in Baghdad won't survive this coming winter.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Yes or No.

Do you think it is problematic that Iraq will not allow Israelis to become citizens?

[IndianaGreen]

41. I think it is problematic that we have the Islamists in power in Iraq

which is why you get crap such as not permitting Israelis to become citizens, which is as odious as Israel not granting citizenship to children of mixed marriages.

The same morons that wrote that part of the constitution about citizenship also wrote the part that puts women under the yoke of religion.

The problem is not the constitution, the problem is that our invasion of Iraq put the people that wrote the constitution in power.

[Coastie for Truth]

54. Normal Shattack Ave - Sproull - Sather gobbledegook N/T

[pelsar]

37. dont know much about israel...do we?

"All of this proves is that Israel is becoming as intolerant and racist as her Arab neighbors"

actually israel in many respects is far more tolerant that the US...check in gay rights for instance....

sorry indianagreen, you little attempt at showing how we are racist pigs shows your how little you understand about israeli politics and why the "law" was proposed and why....but its ok....i'm actually getting used to it now.....

its part of the "lets delegitimize israel game"..if we cant do it one way...we'll find another....zionism = racism was a good one....but its kinda faulted recently...so how about israel will soon become like all arab countries with removal of civil rights etc...(but since our laws concerning women are actually more liberal than the US, even if we "back up" which is impossible, we'll still be more liberal then the US)

try again.....but this time, do some better research, your very superfical remarks really dont do much

[IndianaGreen]

42. Four years of reading I/P posts

have convinced me that you guys are right: there is nothing special or particular about Israel. Israel should not be held to a standard different from other countries. Israel is just like all other nations, with some good points and some bad points, with some good people and some bad people.

Consequently, when Amnesty International condemns something that Israel has done, we should give it as much credence as we do when it condemns other countries, including the US.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. I thought Indy was specifically talking about things like citizenship...

...and racism towards Arabs and how Israel's racism is no better than when the same thing happens in reverse in Arab states. In that respect I think she's right. On gay rights, reproductive rights, equality for women, Israel's far ahead of the US in terms of tolerance...

Criticising the racist aspects of legislation or policy of a country isn't an attempt to show the population of that country up as 'racist pigs'. If it was, I might have responded to yr post here with a 'sorry pelsar, yr little attempt at showing how we are racist pigs shows you how little you understand about Australian politics....' but I didn't because pointing out the dark side of a countries policies isn't showing how *we* are racist pigs at all. There's no country specific forum for Israel at DU, so this is probably the closest to it, but there is one for Australia that I frequent regularly, and I see the difference between the two forums is that in the Australian one no Australian posting in there is shy of criticising the racism they see in our society, yet here in this forum I don't see the same attitude. Of course, there's only two Israelis* in this forum, and the worst offenders aren't Israelis anyway, and maybe it's the confrontational atmosphere of this forum that deters the same openness as in the other forum, so that could explain some of it, I guess...

Violet...

*on a side-note - in no way, shape or form am I singling out the Israeli regulars in this forum. I actually think several others could learn from them when it comes to civility and constructive discussion, not that those who need to take that advice will take any notice of it...

[pelsar]

50. violet....

it was this sentence that "sent me off"

"All of this proves is that Israel is becoming as intolerant and racist as her Arab neighbors"


the proposal proves nothing.....nothing at all about our population and its tolerence toward our neighbors or those within ...or for that matter our intolerence as well....

i have no problem discussing our racial problems etc...embarrrasing as they maybe...and in fact could probably give a lot more relevant info for those who are interested...but when i read the above, I wonder even why bother as the writer does not appear to be interested in real info...just bashing..and for that it seems I'm losing some patience..maybe I need a break....

[eyl]

62. Speaking for myself

While I've commented on aspects of Israel's"dark side" occasionally, I usually don't feel the need, since there are quite enough people who will point it out (often, it seems, quite gleefully). And given that it sometimes seems any Israeli misdeeds will be instantly blown way out of proportion, I'm somewhat leery of discussing them here.

[newyorican]

27. Not all...

but some did.

I present the document linked below to any young republican, warmonger or otherwise insane chicken-hawk that mentions the slight bit of support for this debacle. It usually shuts down the discussion immediately. Go figure.

DD 4, Enlistment/Reenlistment Document, Armed Forces of the US

Print it out and have it ready for deployment in Operation Yellow Elephant.

[Andromeda]

48. I'm pro-Israel and I opposed...

the invasion of Iraq.

[IndianaGreen]

49. and now we are seeing the fruits of that criminal invasion!

I'm pro-Israel and I opposed the invasion of Iraq.

Good for you! Unfortunately, I don't think the same can be said about the OP, whose many postings of Tom Friedman's warmongoring stories left many wondering as to how enthusiastic he was about a US attack on Iraq.

Now it is time to pay the piper for our invasion of Iraq. The following story is posted in LBN:

Experts: No single al-Qaida mastermind
7/23/2005, 5:28 p.m. PT
By DANICA KIRKA
The Associated Press


Anger over the U.S.-led war in Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict also seems to be providing some inspiration, despite early arguments from Bush administration officials that fighting insurgents in Iraq would help prevent them from launching attacks on Western targets. The war has instead turned into a recruiting tool, experts said.

The constant images on Arab language networks of dead and dying civilians — coupled with U.S. soldiers conducting operations — has only heightened sensitivities.

"Iraq has been an absolute gift to al-Qaida," said Paul Rogers, a professor of peace studies at Bradford University in northern England. "(Al-Qaida) seems to have no difficulty in getting more and more recruits."

The attack Saturday in Egypt came only two days after four bombs partially detonated on three subway trains and a bus, causing no deaths but spreading panic two weeks after four suicide bombers hit similar targets, killing 52 people.

http://www.oregonlive.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-24/1122161371234390.xml&storylist=international

[Coastie for Truth]

55. That is as insane and inane and illogical

as saying that the pro-Palestinian posters supported the denial of ASYLUM to the Jews fleeing the Holocaust - or that they supported the Holocaust.

If this is the "circle the trops and commence firing" thinking of the progresssives -- look forward to seeing Bill Frist and Jeb Bush innaugurated in 2009, and Roe v. Wade and Brown v. Board of Education severely limited and Baker v. Carr further manipulated by Tom DeLay. Because YOU will make it happen.

Talk, talk, talk, blog, blog, blog, -- but no Chaney, Schwerner and Goodman or Liuzzo.

[Jim Sagle]

60. That's a lie. Take it back.

[IndianaGreen]

61. Let's hear it from the posters that supported the war

Gabby what's his name for one.

I apologize for saying ALL pro-Israel posters supported the criminal invasion of Iraq. Obviously there is a significant number that did not. But did you make your antiwar views known before the war?

[Jim Sagle]

64. Don't know. Don't give a fuck either.

What we both know is that I'm rabidly antiBush and have been ever since he pooped up on the scene.

I was never FOR the war. Whether I joined the general rants against it or not, I can't say. Probably not...I suspect I wanted nothing to do with those who used the war as an excuse to bash Israel.

I still don't.

[IndianaGreen]

65. Could your silence have been misconstrued as support for the war?

I was never FOR the war. Whether I joined the general rants against it or not, I can't say. Probably not...I suspect I wanted nothing to do with those who used the war as an excuse to bash Israel.

I would like to explore this issue, in a civil manner of course.

I know that many on your side are not the knee-jerk Likudniks that others have been, just as I know that many of the opposite side are not the budding anti-Semites they have been accused of being. I remember a time back in 2001 when it was possible to have a civil discourse about Israel, without all of the animus that is present today.

[Jim Sagle]

66. Maybe that time can come again.

But honestly, if it wasn't Israel being discussed, there wouldn't BE all THAT much discussion.

[IndianaGreen]

67. Israel is rarely discussed with any objectivity in here

It is either Israel-can-do-no-wrong or Israel-is-always-at-fault.

[Coastie for Truth]

68. I can remember ...

I can remember when it was possible to discuss economic discrimination against Jews - who were born in the US to native born parents, educated in the US, never lived, worked or studied in Israel -- without being called racist or a Likudnik--

1.
2.
3. The economic war against the Jews by Nelson and Priddie

especially when those companies raised the Arab League Boycott of Israel as a defense; and especially when those companies also discriminated against African-Americans, Latinos, females, and GLBT's (and bragged about it)

I can remember .... ah yes, I remember it well.

PS - I am not a knee jerk Likudnik. I contribute to Kernels of Peace, B'tselem, and Peace Now.

PPS - Not only do I NOT support the war - but I donate personal time (not just money) to provide Servicemembers Civil Relief Act counselling to Reservists and Guardspeople - and their families. Not blogging, not ranting -- but one on one counselling - and advocacy with employers and creditors.

[Colorado Blue]

70. That's BS. I'm very pro-Israeli AND against the war in Iraq,

I was against it from day one.

I'll bet there are gazillions of people just like me, who can quite clearly see the difference between supporting one group of people and wishing warfare on another.

Such generalizations and stereotyping are just plain dumb not to mention offensive.

[IndianaGreen]

72. I owe you and others like you a public apology

including Gabys Poppy who has said in unequivocal terms that he actually marched against the war in Iraq with another named DUer.

:grouphug:

For those that had Israel's best interests at heart, Bush's invasion of Iraq have done more damage to Israel's security than all of the SCUDS that Saddam could have ever mustered.

Keeping US troops in Iraq until some elusive victory is achieved is as damaging to the US and Israel as Bush's original invasion, if not more for it will destroy our military for decades to come.

[Englander]

51. Oh dear,oh dear,oh dear..............

World Net Daily makes-shit-up!!

Said the weird-arse fundies;

"The draft of Iraq's new constitution specifically excludes Israelis from obtaining citizenship."

Oh no it doesn't;

"CONSTITUTION OF IRAQ
DRAFT BILL OF RIGHTS
UPDATED JULY 20, 2005

CHAPTER TWO: RIGHTS, DUTIES, AND PUBLIC AND
PRIVATE FREEDOM
RIGHTS
1. a. Iraqis are all equal before the law without regard to gender, opinion, belief, nationality,
religion, sect, or origin. Discrimination on the bases of gender, nationality, religion sect, origin,
or social position is forbidden. They (Iraqis) have the right to personal security, life, and liberty.
Nobody may be deprived of his life or liberty except in accordance with law.
b. Equality of opportunity is guaranteed to all citizens in accordance with law.
2. Anyone who bears Iraqi nationality is considered an Iraqi citizen. His citizenship gives him all
rights and duties stipulated by the constitution. His citizenship shall be the basis of his
relationship with the homeland.
3. a. An Iraqi may not be deprived of his nationality nor exiled or deported unless it is proven in a
trial that he provided false essential information that resulted in his being granted nationality.
b. It is forbidden to try a person without citizenship; this shall be regulated by law.
4. An Iraqi is allowed to bear more than one citizenship. An Iraqi who was stripped of his
citizenship after February 8, 1968 for any reason is considered Iraqi and is entitled to regain (his
citizenship).

--The earlier al-Mada draft took pains to exclude Israelis from those who could
obtain dual citizenship. That effort is absent from this text. This more focused
clause would not apply to most Israelis of Iraqi origin, since the vast majority
would have lost citizenship rights considerably before 1968 (though some did
emigrate in aftermath of espionage trials in 1969.--"

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/BillofRights.pdf

(pdf document)

[bemildred]

56. Well, I must say ...

I had no idea there was such a big demand for Iraqi citizenship in Israel.

[pelsar]

57. there are a lot of iraqis in israel...

and they still feel like iraqis and would like to visit their previous home....perhaps retain their citizenship etc...not to mention get compensation for having their properties stolen and being forced out..i believe the terminology today is "cleansed"


In 1950, Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave the country within a year provided they forfeited their citizenship. A year later, however, the property of Jews who emigrated was frozen and economic restrictions were placed on Jews who chose to remain in the country. From 1949 to 1951, 104,000 Jews were evacuated from Iraq in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah; another 20,000 were smuggled out through Iran. In 1952, Iraq's government barred Jews from emigrating and publicly hanged two Jews after falsely charging them with hurling a bomb at the Baghdad office of the U.S. Information Agency.


http://www.middleeastfacts.com/Articles/history-of-jews-in-arab-countries.php

[bemildred]

58. Now? There is a big push to go back now?

They want to return to Greater Shi'iastan?
They want a "right of return", is that it?
Sort of a reverse Aliyah?

I mean I know the history somewhat, it comes up here, but I'm a bit surprised to think that they are chomping at the bit to go back, or that that would be considered a good propaganda point from an Israeli point of view.

[Behind the Aegis]

59. Size

Should it matter how many want to go back? Shouldn't they be allowed to return?

[pelsar]

63. they want the option....

they want their kids to know their history.....they are not ashamed of where they came from, nor do they hate arabs etc.

its quite natural to be able to want to show your kids/grandchildren your own roots....show them where you were brought up...for others its also a business oppertunity..there are lots of reasons

but then it doesnt depend upon israel now does it......

[bemildred]

69. I think how many are ready to leave Israel to go back to Iraq matters.

If there were a lot of them, I would not think that was a good sign of how things are going in Israel, especially if they want to go back to Iraq the way it is now. But sure they should, I oppose all ethnic cleansing.

[number6]

81. yep ... and a

more Iran friendly religious state too ...

"1700 dead americans
10,000 injured or maimed

for this ? "

[Kolesar]

82. They probably don't want any Atheists, either ... eom