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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:33 PM
Original message
Settlers kill Palestinian boy: report
Jewish settlers stabbed a Palestinian boy to death in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, witnesses said.

They said the 12-year-old was ambushed by several settlers near his home at Qaryot village outside the Palestinian-ruled city of Nablus. He was stabbed 11 times, medics said.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Settlers-kill-Pales...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Palestinian youth stabbed to death in West Bank brawl
"JERUSALEM (AP) - A Palestinian boy was stabbed to death Wednesday in a West Bank brawl, hospital officials said, but it was not clear if settlers or fellow Palestinians were to blame."

--snip--

"The boy's father blamed settlers but said he was unable to identify them for certain. Others said the stabbing might have been part of an internal Palestinian feud.
"


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/602680.html
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DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. so sad --- such brave settlers
right wing religious wacko nuts --

Sort of like -- a few decades ago in the south -- KKK settlers attack 12 year old black and stabs him to death -- or lynch him. Or right wing nut case bombs black church -- young girls are killed.

Israel is a place I would NEVER visit -- and I can't imagine why anyone would want to go there.

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Whoops...
Pal. boy killed in inter-clan feud

A Palestinian boy was stabbed to death Wednesday in what was likely a brawl between rival clans in the West Bank.

The incident took place in a Palestinian village next to the settlement of Shiloh in the northern West Bank.

--snip--

Later, however, senior Palestinian figures told Israel Defense Forces figures the boy was likely murdered within the context of a clan feud.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/602680.html
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Whoops indeed. Did the headline change?
Because when I clicked on the link, the headline says (emphasis mine): 'Palestinian boy likely stabbed to death in West Bank clan feud'. The article definately doesn't say for sure who murdered him. If the investigation does find that it was the work of settlers (but who would suspect settlers?? I mean it's not like they haven't murdered Palestinians in the past!!), I expect a rock can be handily conjured into that boys hand in attempts to justify his murder ;)

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. How is that 'smearing Israel'?
Let's see. I corrected the headline that was posted in the post I replied to which said he had been stabbed in some inter-clan feud to include the fact that the article said 'likely'. How on earth is that smearing Israel?

I said that settlers have murdered Palestinians. That's a fact supported by a mountain of evidence. Trying to act as though it couldn't have possibly been settlers is ridiculous. What next? Demanding to know when settlers have stabbed anyone aged 12 eleven times in that particular location because then and only then is it a reasonable assumption that settlers could have been responsible?

The settlers who carry out attacks on Palestinians don't need anyone to demonise them, regardless of whether they carried out this murder or not. They do it quite well on their own and no fair and reasonable person should defend them or their actions...

I think yr stay here will be more fruitful if you stop throwing accusations at people and begin to actually read some posts and learn what people's views on the conflict are...

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Bear in mind
that according to the board rules, thread titles are the same as the article headlins - as in this case. I've already had a time when I accused someone of deliberately using an inflammatory post title (which wasn't consistent with the body of the article), only to find out that the fault lay in the source itself.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Ha'aretz can be a bit of a pain like that...
Doesn't happen with the opinion pieces, but there's been a few times when I've posted news items and returned to find that Ha'aretz has updated that url and the title has changed...

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Never had that happen with Haaretz
Edited on Thu Jul-21-05 01:00 PM by eyl
OTOH, something that is really irritating with them is that they often don't include the date in an article (the date you see is the current one). That's tolerable if you can date the article by its content, but if it's more general in scope....
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Whoops indeed.
"The article definately doesn't say for sure who murdered him." Unlike, say the link you provided.

If the investigation does find that it was the work of a clan dispute (but who would suspect clan clashes?!?! I mean it's not like they haven't murdered each other in the past!!), I expect cries of an Israeli cover-up can be handily conjured in attempts to justify rocket attacks on Israel.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Try reading the article I posted...
If you bother reading it, you'll realise that it didn't say for sure who murdered him. It said that witnesses saw what they thought were settlers and the title makes it clear that it was reported that settlers had murdered him....

Yr second paragraph makes absolutely no sense at all, especially the stuff about rocket attacks. You appear to have some problem with the fact that due to the murderous activities of extremist settlers in the past, it was very reasonable to think they could have been responsible. Or do you share the views of the poster that I was replying to that pointing out what extremist settlers have done in the past is smearing Israel?

Violet...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Read it
IT said the same as my article, in reverse. The second paragraph was a satire of your paragraph about how a 'magical' rock would appear to 'excuse' the murder. I simply pointed out that this event, if proved to be carried out by settlers, would be an 'excuse' to lob rockets into Israel. You appear to have some problem with the fact that due to the murderous activities of terrorists and in-group fighting in the past, it was very reasonable to think they could have been responsible.

I don't think it is smearing Israel to point out extremist settlers, any more than it is smearing Palestinians when pointing out terrorist activity and internal political strife.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. No, my article said it was reported...
Which it was. The title you put on the one you posted (which btw wasn't the title that appeared when I clicked on the link) made a definite statement rather than saying it was reported or what witnesses said...

Save the clumsy attempts at satire, because whatever it was you thought you were doing, it wasn't satire. It's just some bizarre taking of just about everything I say and reversing it regardless of how much sense it makes. What you are saying makes absolutely no sense, bta. I honestly do think that by yr reactions in this thread, you have some sort of problem with it being considered reasonable to assume that settlers may have been responsible. I on the other hand haven't done or said anything to support any silly game of reversies where accusations are made that I have a problem with inter-clan feuding being a possible motive....

Violet...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Same
When I posted, that was the title. The body of the article said "likely." As for the satire, I can't help it if you are unable to get it. You can think what ever you desire. You are entitled to your opinion and interpretation of things. However, I simply pointed out there was another, just as violent force, that could be responsible. And, if you look at it again, you will see my original post was not to you, but to another poster, who seemed to buy it was the settlers (I am summing based on your article). Just goes to show...first reports are often wrong. Nothing I stated in this thread even suggested that I would not entertain the idea it could have been settlers, that was your assertion.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Let's recap..
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 01:58 AM by Violet_Crumble
I posted an article that quite correctly used the word "reported" in the title, and said that witnesses thought the attackers were settlers. Not an unreasonable thing to think, given the circumstances. I personally think either settlers or an inter-clan feud could have been responsible for this murder, and don't think I've said anything otherwise in this thread...

So the headline in the link you posted from Ha'aretz did change between you posting it and me reading it later? Because the headline I saw included the word 'likely', and it was what I thought was the omission of that important word that led me to believe that you may have had some sort of problem with the idea that settlers would be considered capable of murder. But as I was saying to eyl, I've been caught out in the past by Ha'aretz's habit of updating existing urls rather than creating new ones...

As for satire, I tend to get things when they're satire, but taking someone's words and turning them into some opposite thing isn't satire, at least nothing that I recognise as satire...

Violet...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. On the same page...Lets look at the sequence of events.
First....your OP did not say "reported," it said ":report."

You posted, per I/P rules, the following:

Settlers kill Palestinian boy: report
Jewish settlers stabbed a Palestinian boy to death in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, witnesses said.

They said the 12-year-old was ambushed by several settlers near his home at Qaryot village outside the Palestinian-ruled city of Nablus. He was stabbed 11 times, medics said.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Settlers-kill-Pales ...

You did not add any additional comments to the piece.

I then posted, also according to I/P rules, although not required in a sub-post.
Palestinian youth stabbed to death in West Bank brawl
"JERUSALEM (AP) - A Palestinian boy was stabbed to death Wednesday in a West Bank brawl, hospital officials said, but it was not clear if settlers or fellow Palestinians were to blame."

--snip--

"The boy's father blamed settlers but said he was unable to identify them for certain. Others said the stabbing might have been part of an internal Palestinian feud."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/602680.html


I also did not add any comments. Though, I should have added that I added the emphasis in the first paragraph, which was not included in the original. This was an oversight on my part.

Then, another poster, posted, what I considered a crass remark comparing the settlers to the Klan. To his post, I posted the Whoops! post, which, again in accordance with I/P rules, contained the articles title and a brief snip of the article and its link. Again, on oversight, I forgot to add that I added the emphasis not in the original piece, but added no words of my own.

You posted:
Whoops indeed. Did the headline change?
Because when I clicked on the link, the headline says (emphasis mine): 'Palestinian boy likely stabbed to death in West Bank clan feud'. The article definately doesn't say for sure who murdered him. If the investigation does find that it was the work of settlers (but who would suspect settlers?? I mean it's not like they haven't murdered Palestinians in the past!!), I expect a rock can be handily conjured into that boys hand in attempts to justify his murder

Violet...


I cannot control whether Haaretz alters its titles as it updates pieces. I did not say the article definitely said who the perpetrators were. As a matter of fact, your original post title, Settlers kill Palestinian boy: report and my post directed at the other poster read, Pal. boy killed in inter-clan feud, are the same except the perpetrators are different. The very first sentence in my post says; A Palestinian boy was stabbed to death Wednesday in what was likely a brawl between rival clans in the West Bank. It has the very word you were looking for, likely. So, what was the real issue? Your OP didnt include likely when it was thought to be the Jewish settlers. Yet, the first sentence clearly says witness say. Perhaps you thought my second post was casting blame because the original title didnt include the word likely? If so, then it stands to reason that your OP did the very same thing, for the very same reason. My first post actually had a better title than both of our other posts, as it only stated fact and not witness conjecture.

In post 4, you opine that any subsequent investigation where settlers were found to be responsible would lead to a cover-up by making up that the boy had a stone in an attempt to justify his murder. This statement implied that some would rationalize the death of the child because he provoked the response. I, therefore, took your statement and satirized it, with the clan members in place of settlers. I stated that the revelation of clan members doing it would evoke a propaganda smear against Israel saying she was involved in a cover-up and this would allow rockets to be used as a response. So, my implication was that if clan members were responsible that some would justify rockets being launched into Israel as a legitimate response to the murder.

Post 14, by you, included, You appear to have some problem with the fact that due to the murderous activities of extremist settlers in the past, it was very reasonable to think they could have been responsible. Or do you share the views of the poster that I was replying to that pointing out what extremist settlers have done in the past is smearing Israel? You somehow reached a conclusion that I had a problem with the settlers being possible perpetrators, even though in my first two posts I said nothing! And the post, to which yours was addressing, I still said nothing about having a problem with the settlers being a possible suspect. And your other question about if I felt the same as another poster and his take on thinking you were smearing Israel was met with I don't think it is smearing Israel to point out extremist settlers, any more than it is smearing Palestinians when pointing out terrorist activity and internal political strife., which really was a red herring on your part because I had never said or even implied that you were smearing Israel; you didnt write the article.

Your post, #16, again deals with an issue over which I have no control, the changing of an article title by the site linked. However, you claim the title I posted made a definitive statement about the party responsible and implied yours did not because it had the word report. Your OP did not say Reported Jewish settlers murder Palestinian boy, but rather, Settlers kill Palestinian boy: report. The title suggests Jewish settlers were responsible and this article is a report, statement. Oddly enough, the next sentences in both of our posts point out the reports were based on witness testimony.

You go on in post #16 to continue with your opinion that I have a problem with the possibility that I have an issue with settlers being responsible, then say I am accusing you of the same, in reverse. Yet, I had said nothing about having an issue with settlers possibly being the perpetrators. When I turn the tables and opine the same, in reverse, you say it is an accusation based on nothing you have said, just my opinion. So, is it not fair to say you were also accusing me of something I neither said nor did?

So, here we are. The fact is settlers were not responsible, yet, you seem to want to make them responsible because of their past actions. Is the death of this child less tragic because it was not the work of evil settlers? I dont think so. And, despite our differences, I dont think you do either. So, why dont you just say that it wasnt the settlers, the original report was wrong, and the fact that clan members were involved doesnt make this any less of a horrific or tragic event?


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm running totally out of good titles for my posts :(
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 03:32 AM by Violet_Crumble
You say that I didn't post any comment with the article I posted. Well, d'uh. I never do with any articles I post to start new threads because I think articles should speak for themselves...

You say 'yet you seem to want to make them (the settlers) responsible because of their past actions.' Go back and read the post you just replied to and explain to me after reading that how I seem to want to make the settlers responsible. I explained to you exactly why I thought you may have had trouble accepting the possibility of it being the work of settlers. It was the fact that the headline the link led to had changed between you posting it and me reading it, and I thought you'd intentionally omitted the word 'likely'...

I've been posting in this forum for a fair while now and I've always held the opinion that the death of any civilian is tragic regardless of who's responsible for their death or whether the victim is Israeli or Palestinian. And I didn't think I was arguing that settlers were responsible in this case or ignoring that since the time the Age published the article, suspects have been arrested who weren't settlers. Of course I could go and check to see if the Age updated the story, but seeing as how the arrests happened the same day as the media frenzy of Leyton Hewitt and Bec Cartwright getting married, I'd expect any further mention of anything to do with the I/P conflict would have only happened if it had a direct connection to the Wedding That's More Important Than Anything Else Going On In The World, eg 'Leyton Hewitt To Make Guest Appearance As Himself On Exciting Episode Of Home & Away Set In The West Bank'..

Violet...
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. Suspect held in Palestinian feud killing
SUSPECT HELD IN PALESTINIAN FEUD KILLING www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticl...

Palestinian security forces have arrested two Palestinian youths who they believe were involved in the Wednesday night stabbing of Yuzan Johar, 12, in the village of Krayout near Shiloh in the West Bank.

Israeli security officials told The Jerusalem Post that Palestinian security officials had informed their Israeli counterparts by Thursday morning that the boy was killed by a Palestinian youth, and not by settlers as initially alleged.

The officials claimed that the incident appeared to be the result of a feud between rival clans in the village.

Nevertheless, Palestinian media reports on Thursday, including a statement issued by the PA Ministry of Interior, continued to accuse Israeli settlers for the youth's death.


The article states that the incident appeared to be the result of a feud between rival clans in the village, but the Palestinian media reports on Thursday, (including a statement issued by the PA Ministry of Interior, continued to accuse Israeli settlers for the youth's death), viz--

"The Palestinian Authority holds the Israeli occupation responsible, ... This crime was carried out by settlers against innocent Palestinian civilians The Israeli army is protecting and covering for the settlers who attack and murder Palestinians."
    -Palestinian Ministry of Interior -- AFTER THE ACTUAL PERPS WERE ARRESTED BY THE PALESTINIANS


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. So you know the exact time the statement was issued?
I doubt it very much. Or does something become fact once it appears in JPost?

Violet...
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