Gaza lull shaky as Palestinians fire rocket at settlers' school bus

[drdon326]

Palestinians on Friday morning fired an anti-tank rocket on Friday morning at school bus carrying children outside the southern Gaza Strip settlement of Kfar Darom, shaking the fragile lull in violence. The rocket failed to hit the bus.

A mortar shell also hit a Gush Katif settlement. No damage or casualties were reported in either case.

Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired four Qassam rockets at the southern Israeli town of Sderot predawn Friday. The Magen David Adom ambulance service said that several people had been treated for shock.

Three of the rockets landed in an open field. One hit a building in the center of the Negev town, which was empty at the time due to renovation works.

The "Red Dawn" early warning system apparently did not work. Sderot residents last night talked of the return of fear to their lives.

Sderot resident Moshe Shachor told Army Radio that even after Mahmoud Abbas was elected Palestinian Authority Chairman, Sderot residents did not believe to the promises of quite.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/573010.html

.................................................................

Why do they hate BUSSES so much ??

[Atman]

1. "Shaky?"

"Why do they hate BUSSES so much ??"

Quantity discount.

And excuse me, but when does firing a rocket at a school bus only warrant a "shaky?" Firing rockets at school busses doesn't sound like a "shaky" truce...it doesn't sound much like a truce at all. First, there's that firing rockets thing.......

[drdon326]

2. Busses seem to really bother them.

shaky??....uhhh...and them some.

[Coastie for Truth]

16. Breakdown of casualties as evidence of "intent"

had a link to a , "29% Of Israeli Dead Are Females, Versus 2.6% Of Arab Dead"

You do not need to be a Ranger or a Seal or a member of the Royal Highlanders or a graduate of West Point or Annapolis or Sandhurst to grasp the significance of:

1. Twenty-nine percent of Israelis killed are female, while only 2.6 percent of the Palestinians killed are female.

2. Deaths since the Al-Aqsa Intifada began:

1450 Palestinians and 525 Israelis -- appears to be "unbalanced" until you break down the numbers


*185 of the 1450 Palestinian deaths were "collaborators" killed by other Palestinians

*568 Palestinian noncombatant deaths

*420 Israelis noncombatant deaths

*Almost 80% of Israeli fatalities have been non-combatants.

*Israelis are 25% of the total "intifada" fatalities, but 40% of the noncombatant fatalities.


*Palestinian noncombatants killed were at random, while the majority of the Israeli noncombatant dead have been concentrated in groups, as would be the case of a homicide bomber.



One could not unreasonably conclude these discrepancies are a graphic illustration of the possible fact that Israel is dealing with military targets, and most of the casualties are men or boys who are wielding weapons. This would also one conclude that, by way of contrast, the Palestinians target civilians, resulting in a higher percentage of killed women and children.

Asymmetrical and unconventional (guerrilla) warfare - or possible evidence that busses are targets to inflict maximum civilian casualties.

[drdon326]

46. Great post.....very educational.

i'm bookmarking this thread.

[Andromeda]

76. Thanks Coastie...

I bookmarked this also.

[tobeornottobe]

86. self delete

wrong spot

[Colorado Blue]

3. School bus. Filled with kids. SOMEBODY is watching out

for the Peace Process, that's for damn sure. Imagine if that thing had HIT.

This is not a truce anyway, it's a "hudna", a rest between battles.

Wait until better weapons are acquired. None of the arguments for Palestinian statehood and the end to occupation seem to address that very basic question: what will happen when - not if - oil rich Arab states - or Iran - start sending the really good stuff into the area? Black market Russian weapons, for example?

Without IDF patrols, who will prevent this? The British Academic Union? They are going to ensure the peace? Or what?

How many Palestinians want statehood and peaceful relations with Israel, and how many actually want to destroy it? Are the destructive ones merely a radical minority?

I do think it's positive that ONLY 30% of the votes in the recent election went to Hamas. But this makes me nervous.

[drdon326]

4. The palestinian MODERATES want peaceful relations with Israel.

unfortunately no one has been able to tell me EXACTLY who they are.

:shrug:

[drdon326]

5. I found some MODERATES !!

I came across your wonderful website "Arabs for Israel." As an Arab myself living in Jerusalem, let me say that I fully support your view and efforts. I, too, was raised to hate Jews only because they happened to be Jews. Recently, I started studying Hebrew in an institute at Jafa Street in Jerusalem, and I met the most wonderful Israelis. They treated me with respect. I felt complete as a woman, unlike the way I have been made to feel living in my own culture. It's like I've been born again. I even now watch Israeli TV. I want to learn the Hebrew language as quickly as possibile so as to enteract with more Israeli friend.

When I saw your website, it was as if I found exactly what I was looking for. You can't imagine how happy I felt. I totally agree with you that Israel is the greatest thing that has happened to this troubled region. We, Arabs in Jerusalem, are enjoying all the benefits and services provided by this country. My parents tell me how poor and miserable they were under the Jordanian rule before 1967, and]everyone knows the suffering of the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank because of the corrupt dictatorship they are living under.

Please carry on your great effort, and I'm willing to help in any way I can.

Let's pray for peace.

Love,
********


http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/3/index.htm

.............................end..............................

kind of says it all.

[Colorado Blue]

6. Whoa. I have to write to that beautiful person. Thanks!

That made my day.

Shalom shabbat:)

[drdon326]

7. I just re-read all the letters.

really interesting....a stark contrast to some of the things i have read here.

Shalom shabbat

[Englander]

8. The "Moderate" ArabsForIsrael/ N. Darwish= B*sh lovin' Bigot

From the DU archives;

May '04;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=70372

December '04;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=83162#83332

About Nonie Darwish;
"Nonie Darwish was born and raised as a Moslem in both Gaza and Cairo Egypt. She has a Bachelors Degree in Sociology/ Anthropology from the American University in Cairo. She worked as an editor and translator at the Middle East News Agency and attended several local and International conferences. She is now a freelance writer, a public speaker and an interpreter. Her articles were published by worldnetdaily.com, frontpagemag.com, Pakistan Today and other International media outlets. She has been speaking on Middle East affairs at several college campuses, Hadassah, ORD, Amit groups, several women’s political and social groups, several Jewish temples, Young Zionists of America and Chabat. She is on the speaker’s bureau of StandWithUs a board member of Middle East Education Team and the American Congress for Truth."

http://www.united4freedom.org/speakers.asp


An archive of Nonie's bigotry,with many mentions of Treacherous/Hateful/Mindless
Leftists/Democrats/Antiwar activists at FrontPageMag;

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/authors.asp?ID=1176

[drdon326]

9. And that proves what about the letters ?

maybe many muslims are sick of terrorism against israel ?

maybe many muslim are disgusted at the murder of innocent israelis?

maybe many muslims are sick of the anti-semitism against israel ?

maybe many muslims want democracy in the ME and look to israel ?

maybe many muslims are tired of people bashing israel while ignoring the repressive fascist thugocracies in the ME ?

maybe many muslims are tired the way women are treated in their socities?

maybe many muslims are sick and tired of people making excuses for terrorists ?

maybe many muslims are sick and tired of people saying one thing and really hiding their agenda to destroy the state of israel?

[Englander]

11. And,in the majority of those "questions"....

the words "muslim" & "Israel" are interchangeable,
ie replace "israel" with "muslim/Palestine",or add the word "state".

[drdon326]

12. Thank you .

I'm sorry you refused to addreess the questions.

[drdon326]

10. OMT.......why on earth do you call her a "BIGOT"?

I certainly dont agree with her politics, but what specifically have

you read of her's or read about her , that makes you conclude that

she is a "bigot" ??


Thats a very perjoritive word and quite an accusation to make.

[Colorado Blue]

13. I find it absolutely frightening when people who seek peace

and reconciliation are considered BIGOTS.

I find it terrifying when people who are reaching out to other people are considered BIGOTS.

I find it APPALLING that a supposedly progressive individual would condemn another who is interested in people of other cultures, and in sharing the beauties of her world with the beauties of another, and call her A BIGOT.

WHO IS THE BIGOT?

[drdon326]

14. I am somewhat confused and appalled at the same time as well..

I was hoping he would have provided proof.

[Englander]

15. "Oh,the humanity!!"

Take yer pick from any of the listed articles at Ms Darwish's website.
Characterising an entire religion as cruel,oppressive,or a sponsor of terrorism=bigotry.

http://www.noniedarwish.com/pages/745443/index.htm

[Coastie for Truth]

18. Kind of like some of the appends on DU/IP

accusing anybody who buys into Zionism as being some kind of Neocon, PNAC, BuchCo rightie. I find the bigotry and bias of the left no better then the bigotry and bias of the right

Please.

[drdon326]

19. My apologies but I read that link you provided ..........

and I see absolutely nothing "BIGOTED" in it.


Perhaps you could cut and paste the part you find most offensive.

Is it possible you were perhaps mistaken ?

[Englander]

21. So you feel that characterizing an entire religion...

& all those who practise it,as "cruel,oppressive & sponsors of terrorism"is not bigoted?

That is very revealing.

[drdon326]

24. My apologies .....again....

I re-read that link page and i am unable to find that particular phrase.

Could you perhaps post the entire paragraph with the link page to help me out.


( Sometimes taking 6 words out of any context is very difficult to find and follow.)

[Andromeda]

77. Haven't you heard the saying,

bigotry is in the eye of the beholder?

[Coastie for Truth]

17. Oh come on

AMIT - a necon group? Hardly. Serves "children at risk"

Hadassah - another neocon group? Hardly - it's also rather leftish and supports clinics, hospitals, and health care para-professional training.

"ORD" - are you sure you don't mean "ORT" - which is also a leftish job training group.

Chabat -- That's "Chabad" - the Lubavitchers. You're going to accuse Rebbe Schneerson, Sh'lta, May His Memory Be a Blessing, of being evil.

Young Zionists of America - that was (I don't know if it's the same group - or still in existence) the youth group of the Left Wing Religious Zionists., a shade more observants then "Workingmens' Circle".

[Englander]

23. Aye,and what do you think of....

"StandWithUs",or the "AmericanCongressForTruth"?

btw,the only person I said was a bigot was Nonie Darwish,
not the groups you've mentioned.

Also,I have never,that's never,accused anyone of being "evil",
or a "neo-con",or a "Zionist".

[Coastie for Truth]

30. Response

You asked me for my opinion of "StandWithUs", and the "AmericanCongressForTruth"?

-----------I have been to "StandWithUs" presentations - and recognize them as an ad hoc advocacy group -- but far, far from a hate group. The "AmericanCongressForTruth" is a Christian advocacy group. I have not researched them - and I do not consider searching DU archives as research.

You stated "btw,the only person I said was a bigot was Nonie Darwish,
not the groups you've mentioned."

-------------These were the groups referred to in the article that you pasted. If there was any "guilt by association" implication, then accept my apologies.

Also,I have never,that's never,accused anyone of being "evil",
or a "neo-con",or a "Zionist".

-----------Again, I apologize. I do not conflate "Zionism" with "evil" or "necon". I am proud to be a Zionist - and a member of Amnesty International, and a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, and I am a Leftie, Liberal, Progressive -- who just happens to believe that the Jewish people are entitled to a home land.

-----------I also believe that when His Britannic Majesty's Minister for Middle Eastern Affairs, Sir Mark Sykes, Order of the British Empire, was carving up the Levant to assure British hegemony - he could have added a Palestinian state -- every member of the Hashemite Clan got a country. (Ref: F. William Engdahl, "A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order").

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

28. Of those

The one you may be most wrong about is Chabad. First, Chabad is far more than Rebbe Schneerson who was the last major Rebbe of a dynasty of Rebbe for that group. While I could argue that Rebbe Schneerson showed extreme moral failure, particularly due to his inactions at the time of the Holocaust, that is for another time. The focus is on Chabad.

Chabad first and foremost is a group designed to bring Jews back into religiousity and in touch with their roots. (Simple statement, it's a bit more I know). While I do not have an issue at all with that, it is still true that Chabad is a Hasidic fundamentalist group whose notion of kiruv at times seems to border on racism.

Where my problem is, this group also does seem to constantly overlap with Kahane in many ways, whether it is Chabad speakers who advocate Kahane, or the constant use of Chabad facilities by Kahane activists.

Whether this is a function that Chabad is a fertile ground for Kahane because of zealousness or if there are some elements inside of Chabad which identify with Kahane, I don't know. But what I do know is that Chabad does not seem to put much effort to distance themselves from Kahane.

L-

[Coastie for Truth]

29. I have had a different experience with Chabad--

1. Chabad has an outstanding "substance abuse" program - hard drugs and alcohol.

2. Chabad is very effective in dealing with college age young people during the emotional turmoils of that stage of life (If Jay Sekulow had started with Chabad ....)

3. They have an outstanding K-12 school system.

The Chabad school system does provide many of the teachers for the Schechter and Torah Mesorah systems.

4. As to the statement that

"Where my problem is, this group also does seem to constantly overlap with Kahane in many ways, whether it is Chabad speakers who advocate Kahane, or the constant use of Chabad facilities by Kahane activists.

"Whether this is a function that Chabad is a fertile ground for Kahane because of zealousness or if there are some elements inside of Chabad which identify with Kahane, I don't know. But what I do know is that Chabad does not seem to put much effort to distance themselves from Kahane.

One could say the same thing about Main Stream Christian Groups - be it endorsing Presidential candidates, excommunicating members who voted for Kerry, denying rites to public officials because of stands on public issues, massive lobbying on gay issues, massive lobbying on choice issues, massive lobbying on stem cell research, lobbying on creationism/intelligent design, etc. etc. etc.

It seems that to be a leader, spokesperson, or even member of many main stream faiths in the US is to forget that our First amendment provides - explicitly--

Amendment I - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

To the identification with Kahane - I was a "boots on the ground" elected precinct level Democratic Party official in the 1970's in a "changing" urban community -- and the Kahane issue was not I/P. To be very blunt - it was RACE - school busing, med school admissions (there were Alan Bakkes in every neighborhood), closing of neighborhood schools, etc. And the JDL's "Battle of the Brooklyn College Cafeteria" and the admission guidelines at several Big Ten and Ivy League Universities, and the famous "Harvard Law School demographics memo" and the Nazi March in Skokie were the Kahane issues.

Let's not forget - these "urban" and "race" issues coincided with the begining of the Republican courting of the "Jewish Vote" - and we had a very tough time getting an ACLU liberal elected to the state legislature over a "Law and Order"/"Protect Our Neighborhood Schools" candidate - with election day voter challenges and election result challenges - and this was 33 years ago.

[Lithos]

32. Chabad

I know they have done many good things. That was not the point I was making which was that they seem to be a rather fertile ground for Kahanists. I place most of this on the emphasis on ChaGat, and the emotional righteousness it represents. Many do turn this to good deeds, but it also can easily turn towards the blind racism the Kahanists have exhibited.

As for history, please remember too that Kahane founded the JDL, which has been implicated in multiple terrorist activities.

I think it appropriate to highlight the ADL and their comments about the JDL. Most of the issues they seemed to be fighting throughout the late 60's and 70's were not local issues, but attacks on and against the Soviet Union and Arab interests. While I am not going to defend either of the latter, the methods used by the JDL were illegal and reprehensible. The ends never justify the means.

http://www.adl.org/extremism/jdl_chron.asp

About the Jewish Defense League:

The Jewish Defense League, also known as JDL, was established in 1968 for the declared purpose of protecting Jews by whatever means necessary in the face of what was seen by the group’s principals as their dire peril. The founder, national chairman and leader of the JDL was a then-38-year-old ordained rabbi from Brooklyn, New York, Meir Kahane, who, in 1990, was assassinated in New York by an Arab extremist.

In Rabbi Kahane’s gross distortion of the position of Jews in America, American Jews were living in a fiercely hostile society, facing much the same dangers as the Jews in Nazi Germany or those in Israel surrounded by 100-million Arab enemies. Rabbi Kahane believed that the major Jewish organizations in the United States had failed to protect America’s Jews from anti-Semitism, which he saw as “exploding” all over the country. "If I have succeeded in instilling fear in you," Rabbi Kahane said in the closing statement of his standard speech, "I consider this evening a success."

In fact, Kahane consistently preached a radical form of Jewish nationalism which reflected racism, violence and political extremism.

On Edit: Clarified opening paragraph.

[drdon326]

35. FYI.....

"Jewish Groups Donate Toys for Phuket Victims"

On May 8, Jewish charitable organizations organized a toy-giveaway and fair in Phuket, Thailand, designed to help Thai children affected by the December 26 tsunami. Jonathan R., a British professor currently teaching at a university in Bangkok, traveled down to Phuket to take part in the event, and sent back this first-hand report:

SNIP

More than 100 children from tsunami-affected areas, such as the villages of Ban Nam Khem, Bang Muang and Khuek Khak in Phang-nga province's Takua Pa district and Phuket province yesterday took part in a fun fair at the Saphan Hin site in Phuket. The event, entitled, ``Tsunami Toy Drive'', was organised by Chabad of Thailand, a Jewish educational organisation based in Bangkok to enable children from over 120 schools and communities around the world to help their tsunami-victim peers in Thailand by collecting and donating toys. Mini roller coasters and other rides, such as a Ferris Wheel, Climb the Mountain and a carousel were erected at Saphan Hin to entertain the children. Free food and drinks were provided to all participants.

http://www.zombietime.com/jews_help_thai_kids/

[Lithos]

37. The original source

Is on the lubovitch.org home page, the news site for Lubovitchers.

(And yes, I do read that from time to time.)

[drdon326]

39. WHY !?!?

LOL

[Lithos]

48. Why not?

They occasionally carry stories concerning Judaism in places other than the US and Israel.

I usually hit there about once a week and it's usually only for the top article or two.

L-

[drdon326]

20. Englander....may I politely ask you a question ??

Do you believe the person who wrote this is, what you call,
a "BIGOT" ?

------------------------------------------------------------------

'Innocent religion is now a message of hate'



It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.

snip


What a pathetic record. What an abominable "achievement". Does all this tell us anything about ourselves, our societies and our culture?

These images, when put together, or taken separately, are shameful and degrading. But let us start with putting an end to a history of denial. Let us acknowledge their reality, instead of denying them and seeking to justify them with sound and fury signifying nothing.


SNIP


We cannot tolerate in our midst those who abduct journalists, murder civilians, explode buses; we cannot accept them as related to us, whatever the sufferings they claim to justify their criminal deeds. These are the people who have smeared Islam and stained its image.

We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women.

We cannot redeem our extremist youths, who commit all these heinous crimes, without confronting the Sheikhs who thought it ennobling to re-invent themselves as revolutionary ideologues, sending other people's sons and daughters to certain death, while sending their own children to European and American schools and colleges.

=============================end==================================


I truly looked forward to your response.

[Englander]

22. Yes.

-- "We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women."

"Terrorist Groups

Proscribed international groups;

17 November Revolutionary Organisation (N17): N17 is a terrorist organisation that aims to highlight and protest at what it deems to be imperialist and corrupt actions, using violence. Formed in 1974 to oppose the Greek military Junta, its stance was initially anti-Junta and anti-US, which it blamed for supporting the Junta.

Babbar Khalsa (BK): BK is a Sikh movement that aims to establish an independent Khalistan within the Punjab region of India.

Basque Homeland and Liberty (Euskadi ta Askatasuna) (ETA): ETA seeks the creation of an independent state comprising the Basque regions of both Spain and France.

International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF): ISYF is an organisation committed to the creation of an independent state of Khalistan for Sikhs within India

Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE): The LTTE is a terrorist group fighting for a separate Tamil state in the North and East of Sri Lanka.

Revolutionary Peoples' Liberation Party - Front (Devrimci Halk Kurtulus Partisi - Cephesi) (DHKP-C): DHKP-C aims to establish a Marxist Leninist regime in Turkey by means of armed revolutionary struggle.

Proscribed Irish groups

* Continuity Army Council
* Cumann na mBan
* Fianna na hEireann
* Irish National Liberation Army
* Irish People's Liberation Organisation
* Irish Republican Army
* Loyalist Volunteer Force
* Orange Volunteers
* Red Hand Commando
* Red Hand Defenders
* Saor Eire
* Ulster Defence Association
* Ulster Freedom Fighters
* Ulster Volunteer Force

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/terrorism/threat/groups/

[drdon326]

25. Thank you for your response.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse605.xml

Abdel Rahman al-Rashed is general manager of Al- Arabiya news channel. Yesterday, his article appeared in the pan-Arabic newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat.

[Englander]

26. Pathetic.

It is clear,as others have found,that any attempt
to engage with a poster who uses such tactics as shown
here,is the height of futility.The notions of respect,or
civility,or good faith appear to be alien concepts.

No purpose would be served by yerself asking me any
more "questions" - I shall not respond.

Good day to you Sir,good day.

"Heal Thyself,Physician".

http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.com/2005/01/physician-heal-thyself.html

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

31. OK - I can see your point. It's obvious terrorism is hardly

limited to Muslims. Certainly Jewish people have had terrorists also, such as the Stern Gang and Irgun.

And, insofar as such an article, as cited, can be used by bad people to smear all Muslims with the terrorist label, that is truly something a Jew especially, can understand would be rascist or bigoted and strenuously to be derided.

However, in the context it was written, by an Arabian person apparently for a Muslim audience, I don't see how asking the question - about the importance of terrorism to some Muslims - is bigoted. Is that any different from Jewish people agonizing over the Occupation and the treatment of the Palestinians, or about our relationship to Arabs and Muslims in general? That isn't bigoted! It's honest and it's principled. No?

Speaking to the broader question, about moderates among Muslims, Arabs and Palestinians in particular, we're concerned that any attempts to reconcile with Jewish people and with Israel, are seen as bigoted or treasonous.

Is that your POV? I can't imagine that it is - but we're getting worried here:)

[Englander]

33. Concerning the al-Rashed article,I think something was...

lost in translation.My objection was with the word "exclusive".Something cannot be almost "exclusive",exclusive=to exclude all others.I've seen the same article,on a different site, with different wording.I feel that the Daily Telegraph did the author a dis-service,there. Claiming that all terrorism is Islamic is bigoted,I believe,and having read all the article,that's not what al-Rashad was saying. It was a plea for Muslims to not target civilians,which is far enough,there's nothing wrong with saying that.Personally I'd feel the bigger problem is States which are involved in illegal occupations & pre-emptive invasions,that the number of civilians killed is greater in those situations,but,y'know,each to their own.

--Is that your POV? I can't imagine that it is - but we're getting worried here:)

Then why ask a rhetorical question? The confusion caused is my fault,I should have explained why Nonie=bigot in the first place,although I thought it was clear from her articles.Peace lovin' moderates don't write for FrontPageMag.I don't use the word "bigot" lightly or without consideration;having read her articles,at her self-named website,Ms Darwish qualifies as one.

Reconciliation,as you put it,with the State of Israel,entails the end of the Occupation; all roads lead from there.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

36. The real truth

And I will focus on the real picture as to what is happening in the ME.

The real truth is there are plenty of bigots on both sides of the equation. People who use the conflict to further their own bigoted selfish agendas and who could care less about the plight of the average person, be they Israeli, Bedouin, Druze or Palestinian. This bigotry extends in both the secular and religious realms from people who are concerned about their ability to make money at either a personal (speaker, author/media-whore, swindler) or gross (arms, oil, swindler) level, garner raw power, diversion (ignore what's going on here, look over there), or create a uniform (and often medieval) ideology either thru exclusion or top down conversion.

The tools used are the most common ones, including Guns/Bombs, intimidation thru arrest/assassination/exile/censorship, political fiat (laws & resolutions), and good old PR/Marketing/Spin.

There are those who genuinely care about what is going on, but many choose to sit on one side of the other and point fingers. The second they do so, they have become part of the problem, not the solution.

And yes, I'm talking, but not limited to, such people as "PNAC, Bush, Sharon, Netanyahu, the Saudi's, Assad, Egypt, Likud/Moledat, the Settlers, Osama, Hezbollah, Hamas, Kach, the ISM, Ms. Darwish, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, Fatah, Muslim Brotherhood, Jordan, Rapture Right, etc."

The real truth in a nutshell, there is no moral highground that either side can claim except perhaps the children who are likely to form yet another lost generation.

</rant>

[drdon326]

38. Some of what you say I agree with.......

and some i disagree with.

I am tempted to explain why I disagree on some of what you say but may be more trouble than its worth.

[Colorado Blue]

40. God I hope you're wrong, about another lost generation. We

(humanity) really can't afford this stuff. It is counterproductive, as a businessperson would say:)

Seriously - what are we doing on this planet? Are we just here to hurt each other, or what?

At some point people have to reach a point, they say, enough. We have SERIOUS PROBLEMS, like not having enough air to breathe, fresh water, food, so forth. So - are we going to squabble over what's available, or work together to fix it?

Note: I am now speaking globally, not just M.E., of course. But the M.E. would be a good place to start, since it's sort of a petrie dish of conflicting ideals, social mores, religions, ethnic groups, plus growing populations and scarce resources. So - it would be a good place to start.

Maybe, teach the rest of the world a lesson - as so many ideas have come to life in that very place.

[Colorado Blue]

41. I have a couple of ideas to share. First, on Nonie - in my

experience as a person who has performed, published and exhibited artwork - and done lots of other work besides - you'll put your stuff wherever you can. If Yours Truly had worried overmuch about which nightclub to perform in, or which gallery to hang in, or which magazine to publish in - nothing would ever have been seen. Plus I would have starved long before now.

Sad but true. The same goes for any other sort of work. I used to agonize over working for this company or that - until I finally figured out - you know what - I can't help it that this place advertises tobacco (for example). I REALLY NEED A DAMN JOB. We can try, I try really hard not to buy into bad systems, or buy bad products, or use gasoline, or eat animals - but at some point, we're all connected to SOMETHING that probably sucks. If nothing else we all pay taxes. So all we can do is our best.

I think, we have to accept the free market system is very much in play in the publishing world, and not condemn authors out of hand for their choice (or not choice, since there really aren't that many choices for writers, artists, etc) of where they publish. And, we have to read what they write for content, not dismiss them out of hand because we don't like the magazine, paper, site, or whatever.

Secondly - my question wasn't altogether rhetorical. In view of the murder of "collaborators", and the response you had to our posts regarding moderate Palestinians and other Arabs, I'm concerned that the POV in the Arab/Muslim community is indeed, very bigoted toward Jews/Israel. And if that's the case - reconciliation with Israel will never happen, regardless of when withdrawal occurs. In fact, without moderating attitudes, withdrawal is less likely to occur - due to the fear factor. So, it's a vicious circle.

And my second thought on this matter is this: bigotry toward people, for that's what we all are, shouldn't depend upon a political situation. Reconciliation with Israel, true reconciliation, and between Israelis/Jews and Arabs, needs to begin immediately, today, right now - with the recognition that we're all people and all stuck on this goofy planet together. That means, Jews also, and Westerners in general, need to quit being bigoted toward Muslims, and see individuals, see people - and not threats, or history, or a set of grievances.

If we wait until withdrawal, or until the militants lay down their weapons, or the perfect peace treaty - we'll never be friends.

I say, we don't wait for the politicians. Let those guys do their thing. We can make a new world, one step at a time, WITHOUT them.

[Coastie for Truth]

42. It's like I appended at

- nothing anybody does on the Israeli side is ever good enough, no gesture short of leaving the ME is ever enough, no moderation or accommodation short of leaving the ME is "enough."

Ultimately, even for a liberal progressive leftie - the attitude becomes "Why try to please those who you can never please?"

Nonie is never going to be "Arab enough" or "Muslim enough" to please her critics.

[drdon326]

43. If I may comment.....

(and lithos-lets see if we can NOT delete this ONE TOO....LOL)

As i stated above there are things with which I agreed and disagreed with lithos's POST.

One of those in which I was quite taken aback in Lithos POST (I SAID POST) when he included in his list the name of Nonie Darwish...and sadly and somewhat shockingly included Ms. Darwish's name with some various rather repulsive people...." Osama, Hezbollah, Hamas, Kach, the ISM, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, Fatah, Muslim Brotherhood, Jordan, Rapture Right, etc."

I have read Ms. Darwish's work and to include her in that lists of bigots has caused me a great deal of consternation. While I certainly do not advocate her politics, I find her a caring democratic-oriented ,and yes,progressive muslim who is very spoken out against the very unprogressive thugocracies in the ME. The very antithesis of the vast majority mentioned in lithos group of shame. This inclusion has raised my eyebrows to say the least.

From her webite....www.arabsforisrael.com

she explains her beliefs re her and her followers

.................................................................

We are Arabs and Moslems who believe

*We can support Israel and still support the Palestinian people. Supporting one does not cancel support for the other.

*We can support the State of Israel and the Jewish religion and still treasure our Arab and Islamic culture.

*There are many Jews and Israelis who freely express compassion and support for the Palestinians. It is time that we Arabs express reciprocal compassion and support.

*The existence of the State of Israel is a fact that should be accepted by the Arab world.

*Israel is a legitimate state that is not a threat but an asset in the Middle East.

*Every major World religion has a center of gravity. Islam has Mecca, and Judaism certainly deserves its presence in Israel and Jerusalem.

*Diversity should not be a virtue only in the USA, but should be encouraged around the world. We support a diverse Middle East with protection for human rights, respect and equality under the law to all minorities including Jews and Christians.

*Palestinians have several options but are deprived from exercising them because of their leadership, the Arab League and surrounding Arab and Moslem countries who do not want to see Palestinians live in harmony with Israel.

*If Palestinians want democracy they can start practicing it now.

*We stand firmly against suicide/homicide terrorism as a form of Jihad.

*We are appalled by the horrific act of terror against the USA on 9/11/2001.

*Arab media should end the incitement and misinformation that result in Arab street rage and violence.

*We are eager to see major reformation in how Islam is taught and channeled to bring out the best in Moslems and contribute to the uplifting of the human spirit and advancement of civilization.

*We believe in freedom to choose or change one’s Religion.

*We cherish and acknowledge the beauty and contributions of the Middle East culture, but recognize that the Arab/Moslem world is in desperate need of constructive self-criticism and reform.


We are NOT:
Anti-Islam, Anti-Arab, confrontational or hateful.





We remember with deep sadness and respect the brave Arabs, known and unknown, who were killed or severely punished for promoting peace with Israel; a special thanks to President Anwar Sadat of Egypt who was killed at the hands of Militant and Radical Islamists after he signed the peace treaty with Israel.

We salute and commend Arab and Moslem writers, scholars and speakers, who found the strength, commitment and honesty in their hearts to speak out in support of Israel. We thank you for being the pioneers that you are and for holding such sophisticated and advanced views in the realm of Arab and Moslem thinking. You are inspiring us all.

=============================end==================================


I am not too smart but i really see nothing bigoted or anti-progressive in her beliefs that warrented her inclusion in that rather mind-numbing list.









.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

47. Question - since some appenders have called Lerner

a "bigot" and a "totally irrelevant gad fly" and "Buds of Peace"/"Kernels of Peace" a "bunch of hippies" and "Peace Now" a "bunch of ineffective, old lefties" who is authentic? What makes them authentic?

[Lithos]

49. How much money do they make

Particularly how much money do they make over this issue?

L-

[Coastie for Truth]

53. Your point? NT

[Lithos]

55. What's their motivation?

n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

56. My cousin

who was a co-founder of "Kernels of Peace," and a "Peace Now" candidate for the Knesset, and her mother and brother are members of Lerner's Beyt Tikkun in Berkeley. She is just an idealist who believes in the dignity of all humankind.

She is a social worker - not getting rich. Makes a heck of a lot less then UC Hastings Professor George Bisharat.

There are some idealists left, with a universalist agenda.

[Lithos]

63. Bless her!!

She is just an idealist who believes in the dignity of all humankind.

Dignity and Peace, a great thing to work for. I hope for success.

L-

[Lithos]

50. Ms. Darwish

Does write some beautiful words. I can find similar words in many of the people and groups I quoted.

However, as for Ms. Darwish, please note the following article:

http://www.noniedarwish.com/pages/745452/index.htm

She does seem to spend quite a bit of time taking the rather hypocritical line of promoting both Bush's actions in the Middle East because they are "American" and denouncing the Saudi's because they are "Wahabi's" while casually omitting the extremely close natured and mutually beneficial ties between the two. She finds no wrong with Bush, but curiously there is no right with the Saudi's - strange indeed.

No mention of course of Guantanamo and the thousands of Arabs who were held for days and months without any trial?

Also curious how she blames Arabs for Saddam, yet ignores the fact that his power for many years was strongly maintained by the US and only ended up to the point he invaded Kuwait?

The Arab league did not protect Kuwait from Iraq and for many years passively accepting and covered up the actions of Saddam.

Her persistant attacks against Muslims, yet blindness towards Jews and Christians is most telling.

The fact that Jews and Evangelical Christians do not commit or advocate acts of terror, never flew airplanes into buildings and always stand against violence in their own community is apparently irrelevant. She also failed to mention the many links found between the Moslem organizations being investigated and terrorist organizations in the Middle East.

I guess she quite good naturedly omits the dramatic rise in hate speech by Christians against Muslims post 9/11 condoned by many leading fundamentalists such as Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson and the like. Same with the bombing of abortion clinics, the bombing of black churches by the KKK (religiously condoned at the time). Of course the existence of the JDL and Kach is of no concern either. The only real definition of maliciousness is the flying of airplanes into buildings.

And most telling of all:

The so-called moderate Arab countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan who gave up on winning wars with Israel and America, have found a convenient alternative called terrorism. They got the financial benefits and photo ops of peace treaties with Israel and free defense from Saddam’s regime but are merely taking a different direction in achieving their goal of wiping out Israel and spreading Islam in Western civilization.

Once again she makes a blanket statement about Arabs, trying to make Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt all come off as equals. No, sorry, they are not. This is a form of stereotyping that she is aware of, yet fully engages in.

What I found interesting is the accusation that there is a mutual agenda of destroying Israel and spreading Islam into the Western civilization. Curious indeed, given that Egypt and Jordan have both signed peace treaties with Israel.

But back to the word "agenda", the use of this word, particularly when you realize she's talking about an "Islamic" agenda, echos other similar usage such as "Jewish" agenda, "Gay" agenda or "Feminist" agenda. Usually the only agenda that is in existance is the author's own agenda, which is usually bigoted.

So, I maintain my words about Ms. Darwish.

[drdon326]

51. Thank you very much for your response.

I've been here a long time and I never knew you had this perspective.


Thank you very much again.

[Lithos]

54. In what way?

That I think people like Ms. Darwish and possibly Allison Weir (ifamericansknew.org) are pursuing their own agendas that have roots outside the affairs of the Middle East?

In fact, I'm fairly sure if I could compare both women I would find some rather interesting similarities in motivation.

As for my idea of groups who are trying to do something which are supporting the interaction of both Arabs and Jews for a peaceful Israel and Palestine, then I would look more to:

Bat Shalom

http://www.batshalom.org

Which is the Israeli side of a group called Jersualem Link comprised of two women's groups, Bat Shalom on the Israeli side and Marcaz al-Quds la l-Nissah on the Palestinian. As for their impact, recently two members of Jerusalem Link, Ms. Abu-Dayyeh Shamas and Ms. Greenblatt, spoke in front of the UN Security Council.

[drdon326]

57. Lithos.....may I ask you a question ??

As you know I have been here awhile and you have clearly been more active in posting as of late. No bs ,I actually do respect your opinion and perspective very much.

My desire to respond to your postings are clearly tempered and influenced by the fact that as moderator you have the power to :

a.DELETE POSTS
b.TOMBSTONE Posters

As I said , I am very glad you are giving your opinions and perspectives.

I would like YOUR ASSURANCE,PUBLICALLY,that anyone who POLITELY AND RESPECTFULLY agrees or EVEN DISAGREES with your POSTS will receive no retribution,deletion or tombstoning.

My sincere apologies for having to bring this up.

[Englander]

58. Does this help? It's from the updated rules;

"How the moderators do their job

The moderators of Democratic Underground enforce the rules based on consensus. Whenever a moderator takes action, they are required to first get a consensus from the available moderators that action is necessary and appropriate. What constitutes a consensus varies based on the situation. If a rule violation is obvious, then action only requires a second opinion from one other moderator. But if a situation is unclear, highly subjective, or likely to be controversial, then the opinions of many moderators are required. Whatever the situation, one moderator has the power to veto any enforcement action. All moderator actions are logged by our software, and can be reviewed by the administrators."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

(It's at the bottom of the page)

[drdon326]

59. I thank you sincerely...

and that does help but I feel i/p is in its own class and I await hearing from Lithos.

[Lithos]

61. Good Doctor

I cannot lax the rules for any posts or persons including myself, though I do not selectively enforce the rules either.

As a point of matter, no one is tombstoned for activities in the I/P forum without the agreement of my co-moderator. The only exceptions are those who have either been previously banned or those who have engaged in such egregious rule violations as to make such removals self-evident. As Skinner stated, all activity is subject to the review of the Administrators.

L-

[Colorado Blue]

60. Question: Was Ms. Darwish's purpose to talk about ALL the

bigotry in the world? I thought she was focusing on the Islamic world - and that therefore, would leave out the Christian right and the gross misdeeds of the Bush Administration, like Guantanamo.

Questions from within a religion, or group, are frequently the most effective in making changes. Anybody from OUTSIDE can point the accusing fingerbone, but will have far less effect than someone on the inside. For example, I as Jewish person, can preach all day long about the Pope but will have zero effect. But a Catholic, a group of Catholics, they might make some positive changes.

Also, as a WOMAN, Ms. Darwish has a POV about her religion - or at least, with certain sects thereof, like the Wahabi, that a male might have difficulty empathising with. No doubt she has a very strong and particular reason for discussing this.

It doesn't make her a bigot and it doesn't make her a bigot because she ALSO doesn't discuss the flaws of George Bush, who in any case is beyond her power to change.

George Bush is many things but HE is not making women wear head-to-toe black veils, forbidding them permission to leave the house without MALE permission - even if that male is a child - and so forth. Now, there are indications that Saudi women are slowly getting SOME rights - maybe even voting - but that is almost certainly because Islamic women are making their voices known, combined with the fact that people recognize a need to get along with the West, just as the West must respect the Islamic world and its people.

I don't think Nonie is bigoted for pointing out that women under the thumb of Taliban were oppressed, or that there is hypocrisy on the part of certain lecturers here, for not respecting and acknowledging that fact.

***

Lithos, I'm sure EVERYBODY is aware of the irony concerning Saddam Hussein. So? Maybe getting rid of him and the Ba'ath party dictatorship could have been accomplished peacefully, as I myself had hoped. Maybe not. But there are plenty of people who are not so unhappy that he is gone - the Kurds, for example, the people who voted in spite of their fear of being murdered, people in nearby countries who feared his army. Saying so isn't being bigoted. It's expressing a political point of view. Being glad that people can vote in Iraq isn't the same thing as being bigoted.

Even die-hard communists must recall that the Bolsheviks didn't achieve power in the voting booth, nor was the American revolution accomplished by signing petitions. Acknowledging that force can be both violent and sometimes, result in good things, doesn't strike me as being bigoted. It's just realistic. It would obviously be BETTER not to resort to the gun - if possible. But being thankful for the ray of hope, the hope for democratic reform, isn't WRONG.

***

Nonie in that article was talking as well, about the growing lack of objectivity on US campuses. That is hardly just a concern of hers. Many have noted it. To the extent that Saudi oil money might be endowing University chairs, I think it's a reasonable topic for discussion and NOT BIGOTED. And, she was talking about be "Wahabisized" - not Saudi-ized. Wahabi and Saudi are not the same thing at all. Nor does Wahabi represent mainline Islamic thought. Nor, since she is discussing problems WITHIN ISLAM, do I see that she has an obligation to talk about George Bush in the same breath.

That would be, like, Wahabism is wrong because it oppresses women BUT just so's I don't sound like a bigot, George Bush puts Muslims in Guantanamo and Pat Robertson is a loudmouthed asshole.

Whew.

***

In any case, ignoring "Wahabism", or one-sided points of view, ignoring the effect that this has had on many students and on the revision of history itself, is a very serious mistake. We say, it's a mistake to be teaching creationism in schools. Is that bigoted?

Joseph Massad is an example of one who really can't be called an historian, but an advocate. Many find him a stone bigot besides. He's been quoted a saying all Jews are evil and Israel has no right to exist. This, like similar philosophies being broadcast and taught, here and abroad - isn't helping matters - as she points out.

So - SHE'S the bigot?

***

It seems to me that it's real easy to disregard the olive branches and the voices for reform, if we don't like the people who are extending the branches or speaking for reform. Maybe they are "neocon approved". So? As examples: people can diss Sharon all they want, but it is he, with his background as a warrior, who is now pushing for reform in Israel/Palestine. Mahmoud Abbas is said to have had ties to Black September. Now he is a statesman.

On the other side of that equation you have Galloway in England, who was antiwar, which got him elected - but he (or his party) appeared to have done so by exploiting racial tensions that resulted in his opponent, a Jew and an effective MP, being pelted with onions and eggs at a ceremony for the Jewish war dead - and on other occasions. Yet, people STRENUOUSLY deny any allegations of antisemitism on Galloway's part or even on the part of Respect, going so far as to accuse the paper which printed the article suggesting a certainly unfriendliness toward Jews, of being far-right fish wrap.

Is there a LITTLE bit of a double-standard here?

***

It's easy to paint Ms. Darwish as bigoted because she doesn't accuse George Bush of the obvious - yet, in the same list you provided, Lithos, the ENTIRE NATIONS of Jordan and Egypt were ALSO mentioned by YOU as bigots, as were ALL the settlers, ALL of Mossad, ALL of the Saudis, and so forth.

Isn't this EXACTLY the same problem Englander had with the article which seemed to state that terrorism is exclusively an Islamic problem?

So, I'm still confused.

[Lithos]

62. Ms. Darwish

"Question: Was Ms. Darwish's purpose to talk about ALL the" bigotry in the world? I thought she was focusing on the Islamic world - and that therefore, would leave out the Christian right and the gross misdeeds of the Bush Administration, like Guantanamo.

She repeatedly and deliberately denies the involvement of Evangelical Christians and Jews in terrorism. And the ommission of Bush is all the more significant considering she was responding to Dr. Hadad's presentation on Bush and the Credibility Gap.

http://www.noniedarwish.com/pages/745452/index.htm

The fact that Jews and Evangelical Christians do not commit or advocate acts of terror, never flew airplanes into buildings and always stand against violence in their own community is apparently irrelevant. She also failed to mention the many links found between the Moslem organizations being investigated and terrorist organizations in the Middle East.

http://www.noniedarwish.com/pages/745454/index.htm

Since 1967 there have been thousand of Arab terrorist attacks. Israel had only one against the Arabs – and that was by a mentally deranged man that was condemned vehemently by almost all of Israel’s citizens. The Israeli government never tried the Arabs who beat the attacker to death after he surrendered. Yet I hear apologists for terrorism here cite that one incident as justification for the thousands and thousands terrorist attacks Israel and America over the years.

Add to this the fact the only people who engage in terrorism in any of her articles are Muslims or a sole crazy man. She even appears to try and add justification to Russia's actions in Chechnya because Chechens are terrorists, never mind that Russia has been far from angelic.

Also, as a WOMAN, Ms. Darwish has a POV about her religion - or at least, with certain sects thereof, like the Wahabi, that a male might have difficulty empathising with. No doubt she has a very strong and particular reason for discussing this.

No, Ms. Darwish has elected to renounce Islam. Even more interesting is that she so severely criticized Dr. Hadad, who was raised in Syria, over points that had absolutely nothing to do with Dr. Hadad's topic which was on the Bush Administration and the Credibility Gap. All it does is show the weakness of any anti-thesis to Dr. Hadad's discussion.

While Ms. Darwish's rejection of Islam and adoption of Christianity is a personal matter, publicly she has become quite reactionary to all of Islam and deliberately uses language in a way which broad brushes this religion. She even uses this language to describe people who hold differing views.

American academics are foolishly learning the art of Moslem Madrassas that shamelessly teach propaganda and one side of the story. They believe that we cannot understand the Middle East without putting ourselves in the shoes of terrorists and sympathize with their cause even if it has no merit and is the product of Arab culture.

I suspect these comments and article were directed towards Dr. Hadad as she likely made points similar to a this radio interview in 1998:

http://www.radioproject.org/archive/1998/9805.html

Yvonne Hadad: Well, I'll tell you what the questions that they didn't like were. They asked, "What is it in Islam that drives people to terrorism? -And why are they so violent?" And I said I think that we have a stereotype that anytime a Muslim does something it sort of gives a blanket indictment of all Muslims. For example, there are Jews who kill people and they are terrorists, but we never say that Judaism is a terrorist’s religion or "Why is Judaism violent?" We have Christians in Ireland that are killing each other. We never say, "Why are Protestants so violent?" or "Why are Catholics terrorists?" and stuff like that. So, I was trying to say that there are Muslims who are terrorists, but it doesn't mean that Islam itself is a terrorist’s religion; that, generally, the press tends to indict the whole religion that way. They didn't like that answer. They really did not like that answer, because I think it did not fit into the stereotype of what they were trying to say. What they were trying to get me to say, the whole time, was that Islam is a terrorist religion and that Muslims are violent people. "It's something in the religion." -It was very clear to me that that was the answer they were looking for.

Comments like the ones Dr. Hadad made above obviously are not part of Ms. Darwish's vocabulary. Obviously Dr. Hadad does not believe all Muslims are terrorists and that all Jews and Christians are saintly. As for the specific case of Evangelical Christians, you have as a start the examples I gave previously.

Ms. Darwish's behavior bears a rather striking relationship between such people as James Burnham, Max Schactman, Irving Kristol who were all former Socialists and now virulent NeoCons.

It's easy to paint Ms. Darwish as bigoted because she doesn't accuse George Bush of the obvious - yet, in the same list you provided, Lithos, the ENTIRE NATIONS of Jordan and Egypt were ALSO mentioned by YOU as bigots, as were ALL the settlers, ALL of Mossad, ALL of the Saudis, and so forth.

Ms. Darwish is a bigot because of her deliberate omission and misrepresentation of facts, her repeated use of inflammatory speech and constant stereotyping of Muslims. The deference to Bush just shows her hypocrisy and her monetary association with Frontpage Magazine and a conservative speakers bureau.

As for ENTIRE NATIONS, no that is a reading you put into it, the reference is to the governments of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia who have consistently engaged in activities which are contrary to Human Rights. To be consistent though, I should also add the governments of Israel, Syria and the United States in this. I've no clue where you got Mossad.

The fact remains, Ms. Darwish is a unilateralist and one with a deliberate bigoted agenda. Such a position is not only unreasonable, it perpetuates the current situation by shutting down avenues of communication. After all, it is difficult for people to want to talk if they are immediately labeled terrorists and that all fault lies with them when the truth is that the fault lies with all players.

On Edit: Added link, updated initial paragraph, fixed grammar.

[drdon326]

67. Wow.

So much to say....so little time.

She repeatedly and deliberately denies the involvement of Evangelical Christians and Jews in terrorism. And the ommission of Bush is all the more significant considering she was responding to Dr. Hadad's presentation on Bush and the Credibility Gap.

Lets talk about that.....you mentioned the terrorist anti-abortion attacks,kkk, etc....and you REALLY think those attacks should be mentioned in the same breath as WORLD-WIDE PAN ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST TERRORISM ? YOU SEE THEM AS EQUALS?

And please explain all this involvement with regard to "jews in terrorism? Thats the 2nd time you mentioned that and other than Irv Rubin (deceased) and the JDL , I would welcome your extrapolation on that point....what JEWS are YOU referring to ?

"Obviously Dr. Hadad does not believe all Muslims are terrorists and that all Jews and Christians are saintly."

The implication which is Ms. Darwish does......nothing could be further from the truth. Now i cant spesk for Ms. Darwish, but her writings CLEARLY speak of all MUSLIM TERRORISTS are terrorists. Something evident in her writings and in her website.

The fact remains, Ms. Darwish is a unilateralist and one with a deliberate bigoted agenda. Such a position is not only unreasonable, it perpetuates the current situation by shutting down avenues of communication. After all, it is difficult for people to want to talk if they are immediately labeled terrorists and that all fault lies with them when the truth is that the fault lies with all players.

I'm absolutely speechless. 'yes , lets talk to hamas even though they have dedicated themselves to the destruction of israel'.

Do you suggest that the USA sit down with al-queda because "it is difficult for people to want to talk if they are immediately labeled terrorists" ?

As for "the fault lies with all players", I think for my own peace of mind i will let that dose of interesting moral equivalency speak for itself.

Lithos.....I am shaking my head in disbelief after reading your POST. aS I said before,I honestly NEVER knew you feel this way.

[Lithos]

68. In what way?

Lets talk about that.....you mentioned the terrorist anti-abortion attacks,kkk, etc....and you REALLY think those attacks should be mentioned in the same breath as WORLD-WIDE PAN ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST TERRORISM ? YOU SEE THEM AS EQUALS?

I do not think there is a single, world-wide Pan Islamic terrorist effort. What I see is a single group who is capable of operating world wide and only loosely communicates and interacts with a small handful of very local national groups. As such this mimics the type of interaction groups such as the IRA had with other international groups such as Bader Meinhoff and the Japanese Red Army.

A similar arrangement of extremist Christian groups existed for Eric Rudolph. Also, the Neo-Nazi/Aryan Supremicist movement is also prevalent on a world-wide basis. There has even been an association between Neo-Nazi and Jewish extremist groups in a coordinated campaign of hatred against Muslims in France:

http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,59662,00.html
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Europe/France/extremists.html

Question to you, are you saying there is a Pan-Islamic Agenda to foment Terrorism?

The implication which is Ms. Darwish does......nothing could be further from the truth. Now i cant spesk for Ms. Darwish, but her writings CLEARLY speak of all MUSLIM TERRORISTS are terrorists. Something evident in her writings and in her website.

Her writings clearly speak to the contrary and evidence her opinion only Muslims are terrorists. She has purposefully and repeatedly denied there are any but Muslim terrorists and buttresses this with attempts to identify Islam as the unique differentiator.

Are you saying only Muslims are terrorists?

And please explain all this involvement with regard to "jews in terrorism? Thats the 2nd time you mentioned that and other than Irv Rubin (deceased) and the JDL , I would welcome your extrapolation on that point....what JEWS are YOU referring to ?

Historically you have Irgun and the Stern Gang. Recent events you have Kach, Kahane, Machteret. Chai Vekayam and various Temple reconstructionists, TNT/Livni, portions of Gush Enumin and various extremist settler cells.

All small and not representative of Judaism, but definitely organized and with the goal of using violent terror.

I'm absolutely speechless. 'yes , lets talk to hamas even though they have dedicated themselves to the destruction of israel'.

Many notable Israelis such as Ezer Weizman sat down and talked with Fatah, even though they had dedicated themselves to the destruction of Israel and that such communication was illegal at the time.

Are you saying what they did was wrong? It sounds from your exasperated comment you think any such communication is out of the bounds of reason.

Do you suggest that the USA sit down with al-queda because "it is difficult for people to want to talk if they are immediately labeled terrorists" ?

I suggested that it would be good to sit down and talk with Muslims in a way which does not automatically connotate they are associated with Al Qaeda.

[drdon326]

71. Thank you for your response....

to answer ....

Question to you, are you saying there is a Pan-Islamic Agenda to foment Terrorism? no
Are you saying only Muslims are terrorists? no,of course not.

I suggested that it would be good to sit down and talk with Muslims in a way which does not automatically connotate they are associated with Al Qaeda.

No problem here, I couldnt agree more..dialogue between people seeking peace is always good.... however...i noticed you specifically DIDNT say the US should sit down with al-queda.I would be shocked if you did.


I dont think anyone in the US advocates sitting down with al-queda. And I suspect no one in Israel advocates sitting down with hamas.

Sorry....there are people , spec. people who are sworn to kill you , that you dont sit down with.

[Colorado Blue]

70. Thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree, Ms. Hadad's

comments were well-balanced and sensible. And surely no Jewish person could be insensitive to stereotyping, so her words resonate with me.

Surely no cultured person would ever call Islam a religion of terror. I didn't get that feeling from Ms. Nonie's words - I thought she was asking questions, and worrying about it, and expressing concerns about human rights issues, but maybe we just have a different POV.

The question of her magazine comes into play only, I think, in that the AUDIENCE for the rag, if they're right wing or into being down on Muslims, might be predisposed to find comfort in her words, thinking, see, Christians really are better, or something. I agree, this could present a problem, in that it might reinforce bigoted ideas. On the other hand, to people seeking an Arab to talk to, who isn't furious with them, her words are comforting and give room for hope.

Neither reaction, can a writer control. Writers need to get paid in order to eat.

Maybe, she couldn't find a left wing rag to pay her. Now, I've got to ask: would a Jew, who similarly questioned Israeli behavior, find a left wing audience and maybe even get invited to speak at a peace rally on the West Coast?

Just asking:)

In any case I appreciate your comments and the time you took to write them. I agree, it is vital not to stereotype.

However, confronted with articles like this,

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/575391.html

a person could get depressed. It also is easy to understand why all Muslims are tarred with this self-inflicted wound. And I don't find it hard to understand why Nonie, or other Arab or Muslim writers, would ask WHY this is happening, why it's ok to fight Americans, or assert national or religious pride, by murdering innocent Arabs, intellectuals and Jewish people in Israel.

Every day, suicide and other bombings kill scores of innocent people in Iraq, and leave hundreds more injured and bereaved.

Regardless of the machinations of the "empire", these are innocents who are being slaughtered, their deaths leaving sorrow and devastation in their wake. Nothing good can come of this, no progress, no prosperity, no reform.

And moreover, Islam is specifically mentioned as a motive and motivator, for the attacks. So it's difficult for the average joe to discriminate between Islamists who carry out terror bombings and Islam the religion, and non-violent Muslims who believe in peace and the rule of law.

From the article:

The movement's spokesman, Mohammad Ali Samadi, told the audience that the volunteers were preparing for "martyrdom attacks against occupiers of Palestine, the assassination of (British author) apostate Salman Rushdie and attacks against occupiers of holy places (in Iraq)."

The volunteers, who chanted "Allahu akbar" - "God is great" - and "Death to America," wore white shrouds symbolizing their willingness to die and headbands with the slogan "There is no Allah but the Almighty." No weapons or explosives were visible at the ceremony.

snip

Asked how they will cross the border to head for their targets, volunteer Abouzar Rahman insisted said Islam knows no boundaries.

"The government won't allow us to cross the border but there are ways we can cross," he said.

***

This Islamic website is also questioning the motives of terrorists and extremists, and regards their behavior as pure fascism. The author and owner of the site is a Sunni Imam and Ph.D. professor in Islamic history.

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/ourmessage.htm

***

I don't doubt that there are also violent people of other religious and ethnic groups. As mentioned, there are Nazis, Tamil Tigers, IRA, in the past the Stern Gang, so forth.

But these terrorists claim to represent the interests of 1.3 BILLION PEOPLE, who live worldwide. I submit that it is acceptable to discuss this phenomenon, and that it isn't rascist to do so, and that it isn't bigoted to condemn it, even if one doesn't in the same breath mention the IRA, the Nazis, the NeoNazis, the Stern Gang, Irgun, The Tamil Tigers, and George Bush.

***

I have a short list of reading material by Islamic women, on women's issues, which I'll append later.

[drdon326]

72. Lithos....Ms. Darwish response to your claim she is a "BIGOT"

Dear Don,

I remember our correspondence before. Thank you for sending me this
discussion. You are welcome to post my response:

As human beings we all have our biases and we all try to stand up for
what we see is right. After 9/11 I had to stand up to speak about the
culture I came from; that produced the worldwide network of terrorism
against innocent civilians. The truth is I am speaking out because I love America, I love Israel and I love my culture of origin. I believe that terrorism is eating up the goodness and virtue in Muslim and Arab culture; and yes there is goodness and virtue in Muslim culture, but terrorism is hurting it terribly. Those who call me bigot do not know me. I am very tolerant of others as long as the line of hurting the innocent is not crossed. My culture of origin crossed the line on 9/11.

I lived over half my life in the Middle East afraid of speaking my mind in oppressive dictatorships and police states. The person who called me a bigot will never understand who is the true bigot in this situation. I lived through 3 major wars, which further devastated Arab economy and society. I witnessed the ever-growing influence of Radical Islam. Stoning of women, killing of Muslims who leave Islam or change their religion (apostates), child abuse in the name of religious teaching. I witnessed honor killings of girls (common in Arab culture) who were suspected of having pre-marital sex, female genital mutilation (98% of Egyptian women my mother's generation), polygamy (Muslim men marrying up to 4 wives) and its devastating effect on family dynamics. Divorce rights only in the
hands of men. The end result was a population indifferent to the plight and oppression to other citizens, and developed a degree of comfort in living under dictatorships.

The name “Abdullah” means “Slave of God”, but Muslims ended allowing
themselves to be enslaved by their leaders who ruled as Gods. Muslim
society praised and feared their dictators more than they praised and
feared their Allah. Citizens competed to appease and glorify them and
stepped on each other to get favoritism. Statues and pictures of
dictators were everywhere and songs praising them on every radio station. Generation after generation of Muslims were silenced and forced to look the other way when Muslims tortured and terrorized other Muslims.

The person who calls me bigot needs to research what I am saying and see for themselves whether what I say is accurate or not instead of just calling me names. I have more important work to do than just worry about name calling. I know that one person will not change the world, but the silent Muslim majority has to stand up against terrorism and against those who discretely or indirectly support it. Terrorism is simply evil and benefits no one, including the Arab world that often cheers for terror acts and justify it.

I never said that all Muslims and all Arabs are bad. When I speak I refer to the general culture and the common values and I presume that people understand what 'culture' means. For example the culture allows the stoning of women and it happens till today in radical Muslim countries.
That does not mean that all Muslims actually participate in the stoning; but some watch passively and the majority of Muslims are simply silent because it is accepted by the culture. I hope I will not be accused of saying all Muslims stone women.

Nonie Darwish

...................... end of e-mail..............................

speaks for itself

[Lithos]

73. Thank you DrDon

Again, she only confirms and does not change my opinion.

She brings up FGM and tries to link it as a problem with Islam. FGM is an ethnic/regional problem which bears no tie to any specific religion and is not particularly an Arab phenomenon. But you would only think it was an Arab/Islamic issue from reading her commentary.



Notice that the incidence is a band which encompasses areas with Islamic, Christian and Totemic majority practicers. Notice too the lack of rate in such heavily Islamic areas as Algeria, Morocco, Saudi Arabia. It also bypasses MUCH of what is Arab dominated. (Egypt, while Arab influenced is not Arab).

She claims culture, but in doing so, she talks only of religion. Muslim this, Muslim that.

Her style is to consistently throw out wild terminology such as FGM, stoning, dictators, torture, censorship and then immediately delve into Muslim this or that. The net effect is to link the two. It is deliberate. It's also not only what she says, it's what she does NOT say.

Dictators, Torture, Censorship endemic to the world. Even the US has discovered the "Joys" of torture with Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and the shuttling of prisoners to various centers around the world.

Where was her voice here in condoning this practice? You would think that with her vast experience of Islam culture she would be first to say how this might continue to empower those extremists who she says are keeping the moderates silent. But she is silent. In Afghanistan and Iraq, we have installed people who continue to live like Gods while the commoner is ignored. She is silent. Where is her voice on implementing real banking laws which would add transparency and stop the flow of monies from Saudi coffers which are funding extremists and opposed by her RW friends? Again, silent.

Instead of taking the time to praise the new Family Law enacted by the King of Morocco which gives women the same rights as men. (And done in a way with the guidance of moderate Islamic teachers - a model now being examined by Egypt and Algeria) or the frank open discussions of the new Malaysian Prime Minister (Coincentally Abdullah, not Matathir), she continues to ask what are moderates are doing and giving the implication there are none?

Yes, she has important work, though I wonder what that work is.

[Colorado Blue]

74. Isn't she talking about what SHE has witnessed? Again,

and especially as concerns issues which have deep meaning for women, she is speaking from a personal perspective.

I don't think she is a bigot because she doesn't mention animist and totemic cultures! And the fact is, with respect to FMG, the practice is spreading to parts of the world where it had heretofore been UNHEARD OF, within Muslim communities. I cite Europe and Indonesia as examples.

If an OUTSIDER were writing a paper about FMG, and wrote that it occurred only in one community or another, that would be bigoted. But, in conjunction with her other remarks, for example concerning stonings, and other things WHICH SHE PERSONALLY HAS WITNESSED, I don't think she's exhibiting bias. She's saying what she has seen, or what are commonly encountered or sometimes encountered, within the world she personally grew up in.

Women need to speak up, just as women within THIS culture have spoken up. We need to speak up WITHOUT FEAR OF BEING ACCUSED OF BIGOTRY by people who don't even belong to our world.

In a sense, from a feminist perspective, what your map tells me is that Nonie should shut up about FMG because its bigoted to discuss it in the context of her own personal experience. That sends a VERY BAD MESSAGE.

It tells me, BE QUIET, LITTLE GIRL, AND LEAVE THE WRITING TO POLITICALLY CORRECT INDIVIDUALS, WHO KNOW BETTER, BECAUSE YOU'RE BIASED, EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE LIVING WITH THESE NIGHTMARES.

Restrictions on female behavior and FMG and stonings and honor killings and forced marriage, may or may NOT be limited to a particular culture or religion. But if a woman is Egyptian, like Nonie, some or all of these conditions will apply to her life. And moreover, Islamism has put MORE restrictions on women, than in many places had previously existed for many years, if ever - I cite for example the Shi'a mullahs in Iran - where women had made great strides and then were driven back into black veils; and the Taliban in Afghanistan - unbelievably, murderously restrictive - and the Palestinian women, now in veils and hijab, hounded by honor police, who used to even sometimes wear shorts. In Cairo and Beirut, people are in hijab who used to be in Paris fashions and there has been pressure on singers and belly dancers to give up their work and put on the veil. In Morocco, Berber matriarchies are under great pressure to "conform". So in this sense, oppression of women has become POLITICAL.

Women like Nonie MUST feel free to discuss these aspects of their world without being accused of bigotry because they don't give chapter and verse on everybody ELSE'S culture.

If women can't speak about their own experiences without fear of being labelled bigots, then how the hell are we going to change things? Or - maybe you don't think we should? Maybe we should just shut up?

After all, if you carry a particular line of thinking far enough, FMG should actually be PRESERVED because it's part of a particular culture and attempting to change it is RASCIST. I've actually heard this criticism of people who are trying to get rid of FMG! Apologists say, it's no different from American women getting nose jobs.

It's painful and difficult enough for women to discuss these very private and painful and humiliating matters without being branded as a bigot for having done so. I think it takes a lot of courage. It takes courage just to READ ABOUT THEM. It takes more courage to confront the internal restrictions placed on us by our very paternalistic cultures and write about them, and try to change things for our daughters. That's a very hard, brave and courageous act and I'm surprised you can't empathise with it.

And being second-guessed and branded for speaking up - that's hard.

[pelsar]

75. Lithos....

since she is talking/writing about her own experiences with the lslamic/muslim/arab communties there is no reason for her to go "outside" to Guantanamo, nor discuss the various banking laws.....the irony is interesting here on this forum. Whenever the question comes up "well what about saudi arabia, egypt etc" the answer is that we are talking about israel. Same reply works with her...her area of interest is not the banking laws of Saudi Arabia, its the subculture of arab/islam and how it affects the people involved. That maybe a generalization, but that is exactly what the professsions of sociology and anthropology are all about.

and since islam is an all encompassing religion, as it tells you how to live your life, it has a major affect on the culture around it......and yes that is a generalization, at the sametime it would be rather foolish to ignore the connection between islam/muslim/arab and terrorism and its treatment of minorities. Whereas exceptions improvements obviously exist, so to does the backwardness/primtiveness of it. Her experiences and interest lie in the negative aspects, and it does not make her a bigot to bring it up and write about it. More so, her own experiences within that culture makes it all the more valuable since for some reason there are so "few like her"...which in itself speaks volumes.

as far as her limiting here views to the negative aspects, that does not make her a bigot, if that were the case, you could look at the posters here and call many of them bigots as many just bring up all of lsraels negative side

[Lithos]

78. She is doing a bit more than that

since she is talking/writing about her own experiences with the lslamic/muslim/arab communties there is no reason for her to go "outside" to Guantanamo, nor discuss the various banking laws.....the irony is interesting here on this forum. Whenever the question comes up "well what about saudi arabia, egypt etc" the answer is that we are talking about israel. Same reply works with her...her area of interest is not the banking laws of Saudi Arabia, its the subculture of arab/islam and how it affects the people involved. That maybe a generalization, but that is exactly what the professsions of sociology and anthropology are all about.

Because she places herself in the role of "educator" about the Middle East (she is a part of a conservative speaker's bureau called "Mid East Education Team") and injected herself into the Palestinian/Arab conflict, her lack of curiosity and honesty in presenting her information is highly disingenuous and deliberately so.

As I shown earlier, she does wave off any comparison to anything but Islam when she says things like Evangelicals and Jews do not engage in terroristic violence. This is an obvious fallacy and one which shows either gross ignorance or that she is choosing to create a false version of Islam and Arab society to her audiences. Given that she has made a career of this this, and that it has been likely pointed out to her (Dr. Hadad), I have to accept the latter.

Does this make her a bigot on the order of Zundel? No, of course not, she is not out ranting to kill this person or that person because of some stereotyping. However, she is a close-minded media-whore who sells a biased story that perpetuates myths and stereotypes.

and since islam is an all encompassing religion, as it tells you how to live your life, it has a major affect on the culture around it......and yes that is a generalization, at the sametime it would be rather foolish to ignore the connection between islam/muslim/arab and terrorism and its treatment of minorities. Whereas exceptions improvements obviously exist, so to does the backwardness/primtiveness of it. Her experiences and interest lie in the negative aspects, and it does not make her a bigot to bring it up and write about it. More so, her own experiences within that culture makes it all the more valuable since for some reason there are so "few like her"...which in itself speaks volumes.

I do think she is possibly being a bit dishonest about her own upbringing though. If her father was the leader of the Egyptian forces in the Sinai & Gaza as has she has claimed under Nasser, this likely means he was likely associated with or a strong believer of the Free Officers who overthru the King in 1952 and supported Nasser in the coup d'etat in 1954.

Nasser and his following were secularists and strongly opposed to the growing strength of Islamic political groups. It was they who banned the Muslim Brotherhood and violently expelled them from Gaza. Remember to that Egypt had just acquired "Gaza" and was in the midst of breaking down all resistance. Her father wasn't there as a result of the clamoring of the Palestinians, he was there to subjugate them.

For her to use the term "daughter of an Egyptian jihadist" is interesting given that the Muslim Brotherhood were conducting a Jihad against Nasser at this time.

The Free Officers also were Nasser's supporters and generally lived a much more privileged life. You can see that by Ms. Darwish being able to attend the American University in Cairo in the mid-70's, a luxury and privilege well beyond many Egyptian men, let alone women. Her culture is not exactly that of what she speaks.

as far as her limiting here views to the negative aspects, that does not make her a bigot, if that were the case, you could look at the posters here and call many of them bigots as many just bring up all of lsraels negative side

Please understand the limitations of writing versus speech when I make this next comment and that I mean this with humor. That is an interesting standard. But seriously, this forum has (and had removed) many posts where people on all sides of this debate have used this very standard to make accusations of bigotry against each other.

In truth, I do not see the issue as one of specific religious clash. The evidence does not support it. Rather, I see the issue as a result of a cultural clash where large areas of the world are now being being forced to deal with modernism. I personally refer to this as the "McJihad" in reference to the book named along those themes though the situation is affecting all parts of the world.

Again, the rise of fundamentalism is not limited to Islam, you can see it here in the United States with the rise of the Christian Fundamentalists, aka the Rapture Right. You will also note the increasing tolerance towards violence being associated with the US movement.

I think the Islamic world is seeing a greater reactionary effort mostly because of the greater changes which are undergoing in that part of the world. I also think that what caused this stagnation was not related to any inherent religious or ideological fault, but the rather long death of the Ottoman Empire who spent the last 200 years of existence trying desperately to keep things under control and the young European colonial powers who also wished to keep the populace under control.

Much like earthquakes, the delay has built up energy which is now being expended both forward or backward (depending on which side of the fault you are on).

[pelsar]

79. the cultural clash....

thats a far better description of the worlds situation today as opposed to a specific religion and its geographical positioning in the world.....though it too, if we really try to "pin it down" will find it full of exceptions etc.

and interesting detail:
I do think she is possibly being a bit dishonest about her own upbringing though......so too was edward said. His actual upbringing being that of on the nile and not in jerusalem, which brings us to a very fascinating and a political impossibility to discuss of the arab culture.

The question which probably can never be answered:
western ideas of truth within the arab society.....and yes i know it borders on racism to even bring up such an issue, but that too is a western concept is it not?

sure makes for a impossibility to both discuss let alone understand the cultures involved-which is what its all about. Strikes me a somewhat ethno centric for us western educated to try to understand arab/islam using western tools.....

[Colorado Blue]

80. That's a very good point, about trying to understand (a

certain part of the world) using Western tools.

There's a book called "Lords of the Horizon" about the Ottoman Empire, and another about 19th century Morocco, I think called "Lords of the Atlas."

Both were written by Englishmen in a somewhat bemused tone of voice, they saw but simply couldn't empathize with a worldview so completely different from their own. One of the things brought up in the book about the Ottomans, was a clock tower. Apparently this had been purchased, as great expense, from the English. But - it never told the correct time. This apparently bothered none of the locals but the Englishman found it alarming and very, very strange.

Teaching people to dance "raks al sharqi"/"tchiftitelli" I've found a similar problem, just getting them used to the quarter-tone scales and the very different rhythmic structures, which are asymmetrical, unlike our own. Interestingly, I had a built in bridge, from childhood, via the cantors in temple.

But the question of terrorism, I think is a little different. This isn't a matter of cultural perception - or a difference in musical technique - not when the rhetoric behind it is - according to imams and mullahs - declaring it to be a holy Islamic cause. They themselves are making these terrorists holy martyrs to the Islamic cause. Therefore, I don't see how we can ignore at least SOME links to a specific religion and/or culture?

And, comparing Hamas, Hezbollah, Black September, PLO in the old days, PFLP, and so forth and so on, and the suicide bombers from Iran mentioned above, who have vowed to destroy an entire state and its population, with a few Jewish guys in France who may have linked up with NeoNazis but so far don't appear to have actually DONE ANYTHING except think violent thoughts, is illogical. Even Stern Gang and Irgun had a very short run, were roundly denounced from within their own communities, and at no time were considered representative of Jewish culture or religion.

George Bush got a bit closer when, shortly after 9/11, he used the "crusade" word - for which he was roundly castigated. IRA definitely fits the bill, but again, they're limited to a very small, very specific region and conflict. Islamist terrorists are claiming, in their own words, to represent the entire 1.3 billion Muslims on this planet. And they have, and are, ACTING. (And I know, I know, so are the Tamil Tigers, so forth, etc. and so on.)

Why is it so terrible to ask questions about this, or even to notice it?

[pelsar]

82. CR....the cultural differences...

as I see it...and i think Nicks beheading the stringing up of the burnt bodies of the americans in faluga illustrates this very well.....that there is a cultural difference. i dont believe those of us in the west could do such a thing, nor do we do honor killings, etc.

in the end, its not a matter of "understanding their culture".....all P/C aside that "culture" and "excuse my ethnocentrism" but the islamic/muslim (whatever) has to be brought in line with the wests version of govt and culture. And that means removing such aspects as stoning, honor killings, (the usual list).

If I recall the whole idea of exchange students was to be bring democratic values to the rest of the world by exposing its self evident "superiority" to those of the "lesser values", whos students would return to their own countries and eventuallly influence the rest.

its also quite evident that it failed....

[Lithos]

81. Mr. Said

so too was edward said. His actual upbringing being that of on the nile and not in jerusalem, which brings us to a very fascinating and a political impossibility to discuss of the arab culture.

I've always viewed Mr. Said as an academic who was one of the leaders of a school of thought of Orientalism that differed from Mr. B. Lewis. And I felt the same with his advocacy of Palestinian issues. And contrary to the importance placed on same by Commentary magazine never gave much thought to his birthplace or where he grew up.

Personally, when it comes to wanting to hear the voices, I look to grass roots activists who deal with the affected peoples very closely and whose lot is tied heavily with theirs. One group I discussed earlier was Jerusalem Link. However, that is me. I realize people look to different sources for their vision.

The question which probably can never be answered:
western ideas of truth within the arab society.....and yes i know it borders on racism to even bring up such an issue, but that too is a western concept is it not?

[pelsar]

83. Lithos...grass roots...

no question that, that is probably the best method, but.....In the US and western europe, grass roots means generally non violent

We did see a grass roots version in iran when the mullahs took over...(and hopefully we'll see another one, with the direction in the reverse.) but....

grass roots doesnt necessary mean peaceful nor democratic, it does mean that the change is coming from the ground up. Of course then we get in to leadership issues.....statesmen who see farther than just whats beyond the horizon, do they have a place here?-and it gets messy....and then were back to culture. As I see it your expressing the western educated "liberal/progressive" view point as what is a "proper change". Nothing wrong with that, as long as its recognized for what it is, a very ethnocentric view.

and putting those values on others can be constructed as intolerance toward other cultures-grass roots activists is a western concept-traditional arab or more "primitive" cultures dont have such a thing, as they are more tribal in nature......

gets kind of messy playing around with other cultures, in the end however, we all tend to believe that our own culture with its values are "superior" to the other....whether it be left, right or center east or west..the question is and make no mistake about it, for it is a cultural war, who wins-there is a lot at stake here.

[drdon326]

84. Sorry I didnt respond sooner....I was at a conference then vacation.

I find her story and her first hand knowledge compelling .

I find nothing to support your claim that she is a "bigot".

[Englander]

64. Since my Username pops up here,I'll comment on that -

--"It's easy to paint Ms. Darwish as bigoted because she doesn't accuse George Bush of the obvious - yet, in the same list you provided, Lithos, the ENTIRE NATIONS of Jordan and Egypt were ALSO mentioned by YOU as bigots, as were ALL the settlers, ALL of Mossad, ALL of the Saudis, and so forth.

--Isn't this EXACTLY the same problem Englander had with the article which seemed to state that terrorism is exclusively an Islamic problem?

--So, I'm still confused."

No,Lithos is refering to the Governments of those countries,
not,as Ms Darwish does,the entire populations of those countries.
When I,or others critize "Israel",or the "US",or the "UK",I mean the
Governments of those countries,not the general populace.

No,if you recall,I did not make a comment on al-Rashid's article.
I made a mistaken comment based on a few anonymous paragraphs,there was
no link provided in post #20:grr: I actually based my comment
on the grammatically impossible "an almost exclusive monopoly".
I did not have such useful information as the entire article,
or the name of the author.

No,al-Rashid does not seem to say all terrorism is Islamic.*
At this point in history,as the US is involved in building an Empire in Mesopotamia**,
the majority of the political violence instigated by non-State organisations,
or "terrorism" is "Islamic".A few decades ago,when the British Empire was in existence,
there was "Irish",or "Jewish",or "African", or "Indian" terrorism;
ie insurgences in those countries where the locals fought against the Empire of the day.


__________________________________

*
"Arab journalist attacks radical Islam
By Magdi Abdelhadi
BBC World Service Arab affairs analyst

Tuesday, 7 September, 2004, 15:00 GMT 16:00 UK

A leading Saudi journalist has caused a stir by launching a scathing attack on Muslim clerics who justify the killing of innocent civilians in the name of jihad, or holy war.

In an editorial on the hostage crisis in Beslan, Abdelrahman al-Rashid, the managing director of the satellite channel al-Arabiya, wrote: "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims."

He laid the blame for Islamist violence around the world on radical Muslim clerics, whom he accused of hijacking what is essentially a peace-loving and tolerant faith. "

More at;
BBC News

_________________________

**

"British Relations with Iraq
By Derek Hopwood

Iraq changed from being a western ally to an arch enemy in two decades. With British troops currently active in the region, Derek Hopwood unravels the two countries' shared history, and reflects on other periods when British troops have been on Iraqi soil.

The present state of Iraq was founded by Great Britain in 1920, on land of great historical antiquity, then known as Mesopotamia. The country lay between two rivers, the Tigris and the Euphrates - and was the birthplace of the ancient civilisations of Sumeria, Babylon and Nineveh.

The present capital of Iraq, Baghdad, lies near the site of Babylon and was founded by the Arab Abbasid dynasty in the eighth century AD. This was the glittering city of the Arabian nights and of Harun al-Rashid, which in 1258 was destroyed by the invading Mongols and became a rather provincial backwater until it was conquered again, this time in 1534 by the Ottomans, who made it the chief city of the province of Baghdad.

Eventually, separate provinces of Mosul to the north and Basra to the south were created. These three provinces looked out in different directions. Mosul - a mountainous region largely inhabited by fiercely independent-minded Kurds - looked north to neighbouring Turkish Anatolia. Baghdad faced across the deserts to Syria and east to Persia. Finally Basra, at the head of the Persian Gulf, looked seaward as far as India.

In the 19th century Europeans (largely the British) began to take an interest in exploring, surveying, spying and trading in Mesopotamia, as well as in navigating its rivers. And by 1914 there was growing anxiety about the security of the Persian oilfields on the other side of the Gulf - these were the fields that supplied the Royal Navy."

Have some fun reading up on history,courtesy of the Beeb;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/iraq/britain_iraq_01.shtml

[Colorado Blue]

69. Thanks for the links. At age 55 I've been studying this topic

for nearly 40 years. I've always been particularly interested in the role of the oil industry in this region, and of course its role in Iraq and of course, Israel. I'm certainly aware of the empire building - or extending - that is going on, on behalf of Anglo-American oil and industrial concerns, since I, as a Jew, am being blamed for this war.

But I appreciate the articles all the same, I'm sure I can learn more.

I didn't mean to imply that you had closely studied the article you mentioned, only that you mentioned it. If you reread my comments concerning the article, I think you'll find them entirely benign.

OK????

[drdon326]

66. I agree

btw.......i've e-mailed the link to this thread to Ms. Darwish and I will post her reply.

[Englander]

52. Indeed.

In response to this;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=91345&mesg_id=91394&page=


My (hopefully) final word on the question of bigots -

ArabsForIsrael = Not bigots.

Abdul Rahman al-Rashid* = Not bigot.

Nonie Darwish = Bigot.


*
" Friday, February 27, 2004
Leading Arab journalist named as Al-Arabiya director general

Abdul Rahman al-Rashid is just named as the new director general of the Al-Arabiya, the Arab satellite television network said. Rashid, a Saudi national, was previously the chief editor of the pan-Arab daily Asharq Al-Awsat for five until the end of 2003. He resigned, but remained a contributor to the paper's opinion and editorial section. The newspaper is published in London and owned by Saudi Research and Marketing Group, a company controlled by the Saudi government."

http://www.editorsweblog.org/2004/02/leading_arab_jo.html

[pelsar]

65. seenms reasonable to me....

i went through everyone of her articles on "frontpagemagazine" (er I dont negate articles or thoughts simple because of the title of the paper they are written on-guess why)

and found a similar theme running through almost everyone:

large parts of islam has a real problem with civil rights

american doesnt have to apologise for its democracy

tbe west doesnt understand arab/islam-its culture and way of thinking.

extreme islam is an alll encompassing religion that has managed to "surpress" many of its moderates..and even the word moderate doesnt defined properly how it "fits within islamic culture".

Granted I dont believe that all cultures are equal and I do believe that many cultural practices must be removed from various cultures. And i also give someone who grew up with islam a greater degree of knowledge of the subject (and it appears that her degrees only further her knowledge) than someone who lives outside in a different culture and "thinks they understand."

From what I read in the above articles.....she is recognizing a problem without any political correctness and being blunt about it. Whats most interesting of however is that there ar so few of her-Thats is most striking of all, and that also connects back to much of her writings.

and I did a bit more research and found:a muslim site
http://www.faithfreedom.org/

similar in its "generalizations" as in her site of islam, though more aggressive... I think its foolish to put ones head in the sand and, using generalizations (exceptions always exist) placing islamic society on the same plane as the western judeo/christian society today in terms of civil rights and other social issues. Simply looking at arab/islamic societies shows both at its surface as well as in depth difference-one that is not encouraging for the females and others.

one of the more interesting articles:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/EleanorGreen50420.htm

and I tend to give more credability to those who have BTDT than to others who have never been.

[tobeornottobe]

87. To Lithos and Englander -

Do you consider Ayaan Ali Hirsi and Irshad Manji to be bigots?