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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:23 AM
Original message
France angered over Sharon's call
France angered over Sharon's call

Monday, July 19, 2004 Posted: 7:54 AM EDT (1154 GMT)


PARIS, France (Reuters) -- French politicians and Jewish leaders denounced on Monday a call by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for French Jews to emigrate immediately to Israel to escape what he called the "wildest anti-Semitism."

Sharon made his remarks in a speech to visiting Jewish leaders in Jerusalem, despite acknowledging efforts to fight anti-Semitism led by President Jacques Chirac. His comments have soured the atmosphere as France tries to build ties with Israel.

Attempts by an Israeli spokesman to ease tensions made little impact after Paris demanded an explanation for the comments.

Parliamentary speaker Jean-Louis Debre, a member of Chirac's ruling conservative party, the UMP, told Europe 1 radio Sharon's comments were unacceptable and irresponsible: "These are matters which distort reality...and I think they are an expression of hostility towards our country."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/07/18/france.sharo...
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Apologize for telling it like it is? Pfffbbbbbbtttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yeah
Much better to call for an exodus than try and resolve the problem. I wonder what Sharon would say if the French government agreed and put all French Jews on planes to Israel?

There is Anti Semitism in France. It is cataclysmic? Or does Sharon just like slating Bush's chief tormentors?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. French Jewish leaders disagree with Sharon
I guess the opinion of Diaspora Jews don't matter, or are we advocating the destruction of the Diaspora Jews and their rich culture (not to mention significant contribution they have made to the countries in which they live).

Did you even read the article?:

French Jewish organizations distanced themselves from Sharon's remarks.

"He should leave the French Jewish community to deal with its own affairs," said Theo Klein, honorary president of the CRIF umbrella group representing major French Jewish organizations.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/07/18/france.sharo...
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. "Did you even read the article?:"
Two guesses,and the first one doesn't count.
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D-Notice Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. How would Sharon act...
If Chirac had said all Christians should leave Israel?
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. conservatives the world over
have only one thing on their mind: manipulating the masses through use of lowest common denominator emotionalism.
this being the latest in sharon's long string of malicious manipulations.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. Kinda cozy there in Israel with the fence and all
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 10:36 AM by wtmusic
Make the world go awaaaaaaay...
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umtalal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. LOOOOOOLLLLLLL n/t
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. Sharon, the war criminal, has zero credibility among the French Jewish
community
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thew23 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. just because sharon is a pig, doesn't mean everything he says is wrong
France has the 3rd largest jewish population in the world, and it seems like it is coming under siege. There are attacks in jewish neighborhoods, on synagogues and cemeteries. Emigration to Israel from France is increasing at a radical pace because of it. Sharon is not instigating anything, he is responding to a real and dangerous situation for the jews of france.
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. You're wrong my friend
Emigration from France to Israel has decreased in 2003.

And the Jews in France are the most protected minority in the world right now.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Does Criticizing Franco Anti-Semitism Make You A Freeper?
NT
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Now saying Jabba was "misunderstood":
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. he is wrong?, not from anythng you have provided...
for the past two years (2002 and 2003), more than 2,000 left each year, with a slight decrease in 2003 over 2002, but, both years were double the number that left each year before that since the early 1970s, and, the projected figures suggest that the numbers will rise an additional 25% in 2004...


the French Interior Ministry registered 67 attacks on Jews or their property and 160 threats against Jews in the first quarter of this year, 2004, and 42 attacks and 191 threats in the last three months of 2003, and those attacks and threats are against a very small number of the population, 600,000 Jews, out of France's population of 60 million...so, I wonder what would happen if Jews in France were not "the most protected minority in the world right now", whatever that means...
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. They'd be murdered
like the palestinians
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. and that wouldn't be the first time...
for France...
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. In recent years ?
yes it would.

Can't say the same about Palestinian children in Gazaa, though.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. same for the Israeli children and the children of Darfur...
France accused of blocking sanctions

As the UN and relief organisations report of only "mixed progress on enhancing humanitarian access" in Sudan's troubled Darfur region, the UN Security Council cannot agree upon possible sanctions against Sudan in the case of further lacking progress. German activists have singled out veto-holding France as the largest obstacle of UN sanctions against Sudan.

...

As the UN, relief organisations and Western governments are observing that the Khartoum government is not living up to its promises, the UN Security Council on Friday started debating the possibility of imposing sanctions against Sudan. Especially the US government, together with the UK and Germany, have been pushing for tough action against Khartoum in the case of further atrocities in Darfur.

...

According to the German human rights group GfbV (the Society for Threatened Peoples), with contacts within the Berlin government, it was however France that was emerging the main obstacle to a possible resolution sanctioning the Sudanese government. Ulrich Delius of the group yesterday claimed to know of a French campaign "obstructing the efforts of its European partner and the US" regarding UN sanctions on Sudan.

Only on Thursday, the French Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs, Renaud Muselier, had confirmed that his government was against UN sanctions against Sudan. "Further, France is denying the ethnic cleansing in Darfur," Mr Delius said.

Already in the 1990s, GfbV recalls, France had blocked a large number of initiatives criticising Sudan within the European Union, in addition to support Khartoum in the UN and the IMF. At that time, the UN had imposed sanctions against the Sudanese government due to its brutal warfare in South Sudan and connection to international terrorism.

...

http://www.afrol.com/articles/13617





France Opposes UN Sudan Sanctions

...

France led opposition to US moves at the UN over Iraq. As was the case in Iraq, France also has significant oil interests in Sudan.

...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3875277.stm
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Yeah, the French economy would just collapse without Sudan's oil
:eyes:

and sanctions worked so well in Iraq...

only half a million Iraqi children dead.


Not enough muslims dead for you guys yet ?
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Mon Dieux! ...the clean hands of hypocrisy...
didn't youse guys make a bit of a poopy in Algeria* in your glory days?...



*Some Highlights:
Algerian sources put the figure at approximately 1.5 million dead...
Uncounted thousands of Muslim civilians lost their lives in French army ratissages, bombing raids, and vigilante reprisals...
The war uprooted more than 2 million Algerians, who were forced to relocate in French concentration camps or to flee to Morocco, Tunisia, and into the Algerian hinterland, where many thousands died of starvation, disease, and exposure...




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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
56. 50 years old history
ouch, that hurts... :eyes:

Ans it's mon dieu not mon dieux.
There's no "x".


thousands of algerians died of starvation in concentration camps in France in the 60's ?
LOL

Not even Limbaugh or fuckfrance.com would sink that low.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. OK, current history then, and, not limbaugh or fuckfrance, but, rather...
The Society for Threatened Peoples...

...

Between 1954 and 1962, France suppressed the rebellion in Algeria. One million Algerians were killed, many during mass executions or in concentration camps.

France has never discontinued its colonial past in Africa but supported in recent decades some of the worst dictatorships of the continent. With its exceptional financial and military support of the Habyarima regime in Rwanda, Paris created the preconditions for the genocide of up to one million Tutsis and moderate Hutus committed by extremist Hutus in the weeks after 4 April 1994. The French military intervention based on a UN mandate, "Operation Turquoise", was not implemented to end the bloodbath but to prevent the arrest of the culprits by the current Rwandan government.

For years, French diplomats have tried to end the international isolation of the radical Islamic military junta in the Arabic Northern Sudan. This regime is still continuing the war and genocide which, since 1955, has killed one million Nuba and Southern Sudanese. Paris supplied Khartoum with arms and satellite photos of positions of the Southern Sudanese Liberation Movement.

...

http://www.gfbv.de/gfbv_e/docus/memo_e.htm#France





or how about...

The Free Africa Foundation?...


"SET AFRICA FREE, FRANCE"

...

In Jan, 1994, a group of over 300 US-based Francophone Africans sent a strongly-worded Open Letter to France and the Political Leaders of France, complaining about Paris' "deplorable policy and attitude in Africa." It accused France of supporting "some of the most ignominous dictatorships ever found in human history. " The Letter continued:

This almost unyielding support is granted to corrupt dictatorships that are incapable of rationally managing their countries and securing their people the basic living conditions compatible with human dignity . . .

Why would France, this country of Rousseau, Montesquieu, Hugo, Michelet, Valery, Bartholdi and Chateaubriand, be so determined to maintain in power a man (Mobutu) whose 30 years as head of state are shameful for the entire African contient? Why would France be so determined to support a man whose years in power have resulted in total degradation of the Zairean people, their impoverishment and their total debasement? . . .

It is difficult to understand why a respectable nation, a nation of culture, a nation as civilized as the French nation, would, at the end of this twentieth century, trade and ally itself with tyrants as inhuman as the ones that contemporary Africa has produced; tyrants who will, forever, haunt the memory of Africa. It is even more difficult to understand why successive leaders of a respectable people would collaborate with tyrants who, without scruple, unnecessarily maintain their people in almost beast-like living conditions . . .

Such failed foreign policy can be witnessed in all the countries where France is or was actively involved: Cameroon, Chad, Congo, Mauritania, Niger, Rwanda, to name some of the most outstanding examples . . .

One could be led to believe that France's foreign policy in Africa is based on purely racist considerations, and it certainly would be difficult to explain it otherwiese. We think that, with time, this policy will go against France and it will, without any doubt, impede France's interests on the African continent, let alone in the world (West Africa, Jan 31-Feb 6, 1994; p.175.

...

http://www.freeafrica.org/commentaries5.html





or how about these here Commies?...

Frances Global Empire Oppresses Worlds Workers...

Some people have been impressed enough by the French governments opposition to U.S. Iraq policies to carry "Viva La France" signs in demonstrations against the U.S./British invasion of Iraq. This idea is a big mistake. The French and U.S. capitalists both spread death and misery for workers, only on a different scale and in different places. This article reviews some of the imperialist actions of French capitalists, and the scams they use to cover them up.

The French capitalists emerged from the Second World War in uneasy control over a huge colonial empire. They then held over 4,000,000 square miles of colonial territory including Vietnam, Syria, French Guiana, and nearly half of Africa, including, Algeria, Morocco, Senegal, Cameroon, Gabon, Ivory Coast, etc. Unable to put down bitterly fought anti-colonial rebellions, especially in Vietnam and Algeria, France conceded independence to most of its former colonies in the 1960s. It developed a neo-colonial apparatus to dominate its former African colonies and extend its power over other French-speaking Africans. A key strategy of French capitalists for control of Africa is its recruitment and support of pet dictators, for example, Mobutu in the former Zaire, Bongo in Gabon, Houphout-Boigny in the Ivory Coast, and Eyadema in Togo. Bribed with French government money in the form of "development aid" or secret funds from Elf, the oil company formerly owned by the French government (now TotalFinaElf), these hatchet men make sweetheart deals with French companies for resources like oil, uranium and other minerals, wood, etc., and stuff billions into Swiss banks while African workers live in miserable poverty.

The French government maintains control of the currency and credit of many French-speaking African countries, but financial power alone has not been nearly enough to maintain domination over Africa by French capital. A network French intelligence agencies, Elf operatives, and friendly dictators have carried out numerous assassinations of politicians and activists, organized coups, and fomented civil wars. An essential part of French neo-colonial policy has also been repeated direct military intervention. France still maintains military bases in five African countries, and has sent in its troops several dozen times since 1960, sometimes openly, sometimes disguised as mercenaries. As recently as September, 2002, both French and U. S. troops intervened in the Ivory Coast. The most notorious French intervention, however, was its support of the "Hutu Power" mass murderers in Rwanda, an intervention which exposed the murderous nature of French African policy.

...

France sent more troops, but instead of stopping the mass murder, they helped protect Europeans and the Hutu organizers of the genocide, getting them out of the country ahead of the FPR. The U. S. government helped the massacre, too, by opposing U. N. Security Council intervention, even after the reality of genocide had become widely known. Why should these imperialists bother to stop the killing? As French President Mitterand said to an associate in the summer of 1994, "In those countries, a genocide is not too important." (Le Figaro, 1/12/1998)

After being embarrassed by its role in the Rwandan genocide, the French government tried to polish up its image by cutting back its military forces, but continues to intervene to prop up its African puppets. Of course, it isnt always successful, being disappointed when in 1997 the U. S.-backed Kabila family ended up running the former Zaire, now the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

...

As David to the U. S. Goliath, the French government often presents itself as anti-imperialist, advocating "North-South cooperation" of rich and poor countries. Since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, the French government has posed as a friend of the Arabs, embargoing arms sales to Israel for many years, while doing business with countries under U. S. sanctions, like Iran, Iraq and Libya. The widely read French magazine Le Monde Diplomatique, which is published in many languages and subsidized by the French government, is quick to denounce CIA crimes, and features liberal critics of U.S. policy, like Noam Chomsky and Edward Said. It has only mild criticisms, however, of Frances imperial crimes in Africa. Le Monde Diplomatique, is one of the main sponsors of the World Social Forum, a big conference held yearly in Porto Alegre, Brazil, and also subsidized by the French government. Claiming to be anti-imperialist, the Forum opposes "neo-liberal globalization," (i.e, the WTO and free trade) and advocates "returning control" of the movement of capital to nation-states, instead of U. S.-dominated organizations like the World Bank and the IMF. In other words, the Forum wants to reform capitalism, not end it, and do so in ways that would benefit capitalist powers other than the U. S.

Whatever fig leaves it puts on, the naked truth is that France is an imperialist state, driven by its corporations drive for profits to exploit millions of workers, and led by racist killers. Its imperial interests make it resist its rival, the U. S. empire, but that does not make it an ally of workers. Instead of "Viva la France," the slogan for workers of all countries should be "Death to all imperialists."

http://www.plp.org/comm03/2france.html





and let's not forget France and Mugabe...

Mugabe Must Go!

"If you had told me a year ago that I would be in the streets rioting, I would have said you were insane. But then again, if you told me I would be praying to God to deliver us from Robert Mugabe a year ago, I would have said the same thing. I am not a violent man; I am not an especially religious man. But whatever it takes for Zimbabwe to finally be rid of this man, I am willing to do." -- Josiah Makawa, a 24-year-old warehouse worker in Harare (The Washington Post, Nov 23, 2000; p.A45).


Analysis: Mugabe turns to France

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1204492.stm






MON DIEU!...peut-tre, j'ai plus qu'un dieu, non?...maintenant alors, j'cris il sans le 'x'...merci beaucoup pour la correction...mon franais est trs rouill...

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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. totally unrelated to the discussion


but thanx anyway


Et si tu as plus d'un dieu, alors il faut dire "mes dieux" mais ca se dit pas en francais.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. you brought up what France thinks of Israel...
that opens up France to be Exhibit A...


bien sr...
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. you forgot to mention the <sarcasm> thing inculded in said post
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. oh, you were just being sarcastic?...
well, then, never mind...
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #60
75. France, like the rest of the western world...
has a disgusting record of atrocities, current and past.

But states are not ALWAYS wrong because they are SOMETIMES wrong.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #75
84. Unlike Israel
The French took its royalty to the guillotine. That was the democratic reform.
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Now and Then Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #75
85. I do hope you keep that in mind
ALL the time
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. "they'd be murdered"...
stange mix of pride and disappointment coming through there...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. and you know what this ambassador thinks of that...
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. I assume you're referring to the cheese-eating-surrender-monkey thing
That was Groundskeeper Willy not Bart Simpson

Try again.

"cantwealljustgetalong" ?

Definetely not.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. OK, I'll try again...
"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it." Marge Simpson



if getting along means "missing a good opportunity to keep quiet" while Prime Minister Chirac freudian slips a little faux-pas as he says "to Jewish persons of our country and to Frenchmen", well, then, c'est la vie...



faux, c'est avec un 'x', n'est-ce pas?...

btw, it's definitely...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Well, I know only the one
I guess Israel is not that important a country after all (except for violence and stuff).

And I don't know who's more touchy here. I mean I at least don't have to make bogus claims such as "thousands of algerians died of starvation in concentration camps in France" and "Jews get murdered in France" to make a point.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. no, you just have to resort to...
false quotes..."Jews get murdered in France"...
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. yeah, cos post #32 doesn't imply that of course
:eyes:
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. a quote is a quote, and post 32 is in context to your post 31...
:eyes:
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. where you imply that jews get murdered in France
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. where I retort to your cavalier comment about Jews being murdered...
so enough already with this bs...

Viva la France!...
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. it's Vive la France
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
86. it's Vive la Hipocrisy...
France in Rwanda: Vichy Syndrome of Guilty Silence...

PARIS - France's official implication in the Rwanda genocide of 1994, revealed this month by the newspaper Le Figaro, demonstrates the power of history, even bad history, to influence a politician's decisions. It also provides disconcerting evidence of certain recurrent traits in the behavior of the French political class.
The newspaper told how French soldiers trained many of Rwandan soldiers and militiamen who later carried out the genocide, did not interfere when the genocide began, and subsequently were ordered to help the killers' leaders to escape.

Since publication, there has been an oppressive silence on the matter, broken only by a Foreign Ministry denial that arms had been supplied in violation of a UN arms embargo.

No other national newspaper, television chain or magazine has taken up the reports, or challenged them. There has been no editorial comment. There have been no manifestos by French intellectuals, usually prompt to protest violations of human rights, ready to march through the streets demanding justice.

Editors at Le Figaro say they are aware of no official or press reaction whatever, other than off-the-record official comments deploring the revival of ''an old story.''

What is old about the story is that all this was widely rumored at the time of the 1994 slaughter, and was denied by the French government.

What is new is that France's involvement now has public confirmation from witnesses, participants and official inquiries by the United Nations and the Belgian Parliament.

This ''old story'' also has an important current ramification. Patrick de Saint-Exupry, the journalist who revealed secret French implication in events which culminated in the murder of something like a million Tutsi civilians, reports that France now is obstructing the work of the UN War Crimes Tribunal on Bosnia because it fears that the second UN War Crimes Tri-bunal, concerned with Rwanda, might demand testimony from French officers.

...

It took more than 20 years for the French to begin to publish the full record of the Vichy government's wartime collaboration with Nazi Germany. It took a foreign historian, Robert Paxton, to force the story into the open, with his own researches.

In the Rwandan case, France's governing classes are once again refusing to confront what has happened. The astonishing thing is that this is supposed to defend the national honor.

http://www.iht.com/IHT/WP/98/wp012298.html
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-03-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Marshall Petain has been rotting in his grave for 60 years
Mitterand for 8 years

Sharon, who had every men in Sabra and Chatila massacred in 1982, is still prime minister of Israel.


And my Friend Africa has once again nothing to do with this topic.

And I would be an hypocrite only if I had been a Vichy collaborator or had supported and still supported the training of Rwandese militia men by French soldiers. (wich I don't).


Vive l'hypcrisie indeed.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. Translation: Come! Be a "settler"!
Yeah, there's so much room in Israel. Not. So what then? Hoardes of people show up and there's no place to put them......I know!!! Let's build some settlements!

Ugh.

Julie
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Redhead488 Donating Member (547 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. There is plenty of room in Israel
without building settlements in Palestinian territory.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. It's not the "number" of people, it's the "kind" of people
with Palestinians soon to become a majority in Israel
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. The Palestinians Are Only A Majority If Israel Annexs The West Bank...
Which is an god awful idea.....
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. They will be a majority within ten years
in Israel "proper"--hence the need to bolster the Jewish population
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. Amazing how the only people who don't know about the crisis of
European anti-semitism are European Jews. Clearly, they don't know what's going on--they should listen to American and Israeli Likudniks to get the real story.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. Yeah, move from France to Israel so you can get blown up
on a bus?

I don't think so.

Actually, I think a lot of the anti-Semitism in France is due to Israel's policies about Palestine.

It's too bad Gore didn't get into the White House and have Clinton continue the peace talks. The whole world would have been a safer place then.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. I agree
Actually, I think a lot of the anti-semitism in France is due to Israel's policies about Palestine.

Exactly!
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
81. More likely
due to Internet sites like electronicintifada.
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. Even without the right of return, Palestinians will soon ...
outnumber Jews in Israel/Palestine. Since partial-withdrawal and fenced-Bantustan policies have hit a few bumps, Sharon is apparently worried about Palestinians' having a majority. Solution: create new scares to revive Jewish immigation to Israel.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
82. Not a scapegoat
much?
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. Taking a guess
I'd say this is Sharon's way of getting even for the International Court of Justice's judgement against the wall.

(Maybe)
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Chirac should invite Israeli Jews to move to France.
Tit for tat seems fair.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. Israel's PM just wants more Jews in Israel
to balance the Muslim citizens. I think he's fighting a losing battle. It's just a matter of time the Muslims citizens will outnumber the Jews in Israel.
On top of that there are Jewish people in France who like France and want to stay there, and will stay there. I saw one on TV news who said that "France is a great country."

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LeftistGorilla Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
30. Blah...
This is the same guy who said Palestinian kids wouldn't die while playing if they were in Jordan...
:eyes:
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
36. France may be good
But for Jews, Israel is better. It's a personal and individual matter, and everyone has the freedom of an informed choice.

The French are ultra hubris, as usual.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. "But for Jews, Israel is better."
I disagree, America is better for Jews. Historically, there has always been more Jews in the Diaspora (which predates Israel) than they have been living in Israel proper (I am speaking of the pre-70 CE Israel).

Places like Alexandria had a vibrant Jewish community that preferred the freedoms and business opportunities that did not exist in Israel (which was really two separate kingdoms, Israel and Judea).
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Difficult choice
Stay in France and risk being atacked or move to Israel and live behind a high wall and still at risk of being attacked.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. "Behind a high wall"
Better a wall than an open border when death squads constantly infiltrate, most living near would agree. If you think the risk is grater in Israel, yet can't see the wall as defensive (I don't mean you necessarily, Sushi, but many here think there is no defensive reason for the fence. Yet they think Israel is more dangerous than France. Does that make sense at all?

The "risk" is not the important factor. What is important is a Jewish community which shares values and isn't in conflict. Many in the Jewish community in France live in the same areas as the Muslim immigrants. Conflict at home is the issue. Jews in Israel have an army. Is there a Jewish army in France?

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. "a Jewish community which shares values and isn't in conflict "
What is important is a Jewish community which shares values and isn't in conflict.

Two false assertions! If it weren't for the intifada, we would be in the middle of a Jewish civil war. Why don't you tell your American readers about the bad blood between the religious and the secular in Israel? Why don't you tell them about the acts of violence by the religious against those that didn't conform to their views, religious and political? How about the murders committed by our own version of religious wackos?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. News reports
Your impression is based on news reports, not the facts on the ground.

Acts of violence, as you put it, are in fact an illusion. Sure, there are crimes committed in Israel. Sure there are many problems. Some find that it is more important to work on these problems than to be struck by Muslim hoodlums in the streets.
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. LOL
Better watch out, denial is against the law in Israel isn't it?
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. WTF
Why the hell should there be a Jewish army in France?

I don't understand the thought process behind that. There is nothing to suggest, NOTHING, that Frances current administration supports any sort of attacks on the Jewish people.

There isnt a Muslim army in France either, is there?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Rhetorical question
the answer: Of course there isn't a Jewish army in France.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. My response
Better a wall than an open border when death squads constantly infiltrate,...

I agree, but I think no part of that wall should have been built outside Israel proper. I'm sure it has been discussed at length here, but I must have missed it - can you give me one reason why part of the fence was built outside Israel proper?
That's why the ICJ got involved, then the UN, and now everybody hates everybody even more! Just imagine - I live next door to you, and to avoid your dogs coming on my property and ruining my beautiful plants I build a high wall between us on your property!!!

I do hope you will have an open border again before too long, and everybody likes everybody again. That wall is really very ugly to look at.

As for Jewish people in France, I think some will move to Israel, but I'm sure there are others who will chose to stay in France. They will decide for themselves.

Is there a Jewish army in France?

Is there a French army in Israel?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. The towns
Jewish and Arab communities were not built with respect to the Green Line. Your scenario would only apply if they were. Since Jewish property lies on the East of the demarcation point called the Green Line and Arab property on the West of it, there can be no equation there.
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Gaul Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #41
77. The defense of Jewish citizens
"Jews in Israel have an army. Is there a Jewish army in France?"

Well, no, of course. We have a national army that encompasses citizens from every religion, like any Western nation.

As a matter of fact, not even Israel has a Jewish Army, from that point of view, because if I remember correctly, Israeli Christians serve in Tsa'hal as well as their Jewish countrymen. To be a little cynical, I'd say the only Israeli citizens not serving in the army are...the ultra-orthodox Jew students, who are exempted from military service.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Not really so
Edited on Sat Jul-31-04 03:39 PM by Gimel
Israeli Christians serve in Tsa'hal as well as their Jewish countrymen. To be a little cynical, I'd say the only Israeli citizens not serving in the army are...the ultra-orthodox Jew students, who are exempted from military service.

While few Christians serve in the IDF, maybe there are some who haven't undergone formal conversion, there are Muslims because the Bedouin serve in the IDF, and they are Muslim. There are also Druze who have their own religion, but are loyal to Israel. Other than that, the thousands of Muslim Arabs who are Israelis don't serve in the IDF at all, or even do national service of any sort, which most Jewish women do in Israel. Some Ultra-Orthodox are getting exemptions still, but most are serving now days.

Well, there are a few Jews in the armies of the West, and maybe also still in the volunteer armies such as in France. But being predominantly non-Jewish. Or in the police force, which is probably given the job to follow-up on such attacks. It probably isn't of prime interest there either.

It was pointed out that with the false attack with high-profile in the news, that any reports will be viewed more questionably anyway. Now they'll have reason to thik it's some kind of prank.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. You might be interested in
This article:

First Hebrew Israelite drafted into IDF

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/458077.html
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
42. A clash of civilizations over French Jews - Uri Avnery
http://www.iht.com/articles/530607.html

<snip>


"In a dramatic television broadcast today, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, called upon the million Russian emigrants in Israel to return at once to their homeland, in view of the growing danger to their security there."

It is easy to imagine what would have been the reaction in Israel if Putin had indeed made such an appeal. Or if the president of France, Jacques Chirac, called upon the French-speakers in Israel, the hundreds of thousands of immigrants from France and North Africa, to move to France, where their life is not threatened by suicide bombers.

The Israeli media would have gone berserk. The Knesset, in an emergency session, would have denounced the outrageous anti-Semitic outburst of the president of Russia/France. Politicians would have tried to outdo each other in condemnations of the inadmissible interference in the internal affairs of Israel. The Foreign Office would have ordered the return of the ambassador in Moscow/Paris for "consultations."

What happened was, of course, the reverse. It was the Israeli prime minister who called on the French Jews to leave their homeland "as soon as possible" and come to Israel, in view of the alleged anti-Semitic wave in France. The French government and media reacted exactly as their Israeli counterparts would have done. One out of every hundred Frenchman (and Frenchwoman) is Jewish."

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Excellent
This article lays down the exact measure of this idiocy.
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. Hear Hear
The double standard in regards Israel is ridiculous.

Maybe France SHOULD make that call.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. How about both Russia and France
making that call!
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. That's a laugh
They should also expel the ruffians who attack Jews.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. It was a joke, Gimel!
I was responding to the previous post, which was also a joke, I'm sure. Obviously it's not going to happen. I just wanted to imply how unacceptable it is for leaders to make such calls. I hope your PM is sorry he said it. Or maybe he isn't. Maybe he does want French Jewish citizens to move to Israel, to add to Israel's Jewish citizens (isn't that it?), but then I think he should have said so openly.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. I think he did
in his clarification he said that he wants all Jews to immigrate to Israel, wherever they are. It is not likely to happen, but that is his policy invitation.
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Gaul Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #55
78. Expelling the people who attack Jews
It would be OK by me. As a matter of fact, there is such an law in preparation, but it was attacked by US Conservatives as final proof of France's wickedness, God knows why.

Personally, I make no difference between a guy who attacks a French Jew and a guy who attacks a French atheist. It's aggravated assault, and should be punished accordingly. If the perpetrator is an immigrant, then he is violating the first principle of immigration which is to respect the laws of your host country, which opens the question of his possible expel out of country.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
76.  cantwealljustgetalong......no
not with Bush, not with Sharon .....

what a silly ass ...(Sharon)

and btw ..Vive la France





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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. I'm glad to see
you didn't send for a "Boycott France" sticker from O'Reilly either!
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