Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Don't blame Arafat

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:51 PM
Original message
Don't blame Arafat
What the evolving controversy now increasingly confirms is what a few dissident Israelis contended from the outset: the charge that Arafat "instigated" or "orchestrated" the intifada would be more aptly directed at the Israeli officials, politicians and military leaders who levelled it. For these people actually wanted the intifada, were preparing for it and, when it came, fanned its flames with the massively disproportionate use of force against unarmed Palestinian demonstrators and stone-throwers.

Sharon, who held Oslo to be "the greatest misfortune ever to have befallen Israel" and considered the intifada the opportunity to destroy it, was foremost among them. But, his "generous offer" notwithstanding, the "moderate" Barak, Sharon's political rival but admiring military disciple, was among them too.

In the first place it was not Arafat who blew up Camp David. Robert Malley, Clinton's adviser at the conference, and others have long since exhaustively debunked this for the almost ludicrously partisan myth it was. In their view, Barak himself contributed more to the collapse than Arafat.

And now comes Malka, the former intelligence chief, who flatly asserts that the evaluations of Arafat's intentions and actions on which Barak, and later Sharon, relied were "erroneous", and deliberately so. They were the handiwork of one man, who occupied a key position in the Israeli policy-making process: Amos Gilad, the head of the military intelligence research department. He presented "national security assessments" to the government. Crucially, he only did so orally, because, as he put it, "they don't read......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,126341...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. How does it further exterminationist ends to give the Palestinians
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 03:36 PM by Classical_Liberal
a state on the West Bank as the UN originally intended? BTW, the Palestinians aren't Germans in 1939. They are people who were displaced as a result of the creation of the Israeli state. If everyone who isn't a Jew is an exterminationists why live in the US?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. By absolving their leadership of blame for their own actions, it feeds
their fantasy of driving Israel into the sea.

They want what they want and they want it right now, even when they lose. And it's been going on for decades.

At some point they need to sit down with their enemy face to face and negotiate for real.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Arafat recognized Israel during Oslo, and most
recently stated he wanted to preserve the Jewish Character of the Israeli state. Just two weeks ago in Haaretz. Doesn't sound like he is interested in driving Israel into the sea. I am 37, so I know for a fact there have been lulls that Israel has only exploited for the creation of more settlements.

All you have going for you is paranoia, and probably a basic contempt for Palestinians that would be there even without violence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MajorFlaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. "Paranoia . . .that would be there even without violence"?
I guess we'll never know as long as Arafat is in (nominal) charge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Arafat isn't responsible for the violence
It is Hamas, and Israel has actively supported them in the past to destroy the PLO.

I won't grieve to much when he goes, and I wish people on all sides of this would give up their addiction to career politicians, but he isn't responsible for the suicide bombings, or the failure of the talks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MajorFlaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. If Arafat isn't responsible for the failure of the talks, who is?
Surely you aren't blaming EVERYTHING on the Israelis. Quick quiz, which one doesn't belong in the group: Gandhi, Mandela, King, Arafat?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. No I don't blame everything on the Israelis.
. Sharon and Barak don't fit there either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shane_Fergessen Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Clinton and Barak
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 08:35 PM by Shane_Fergessen
It's pretty damn easy actually.

Barak presented a series of demands that made "Palestine" as envisioned by him that made the South African Bantustan's or even the Soviet sattelite states look like models of independent sovereignty.

Tell me I'm wrong? Compare and contrast the sort of demands made on the latter parties and those demanded of Arafat and it was a ridiculous proposition.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Do a bit of research on Mandela and the ANC
They used violent/destructive means and Mandela accepted this was unfortunate, regretable but also in some cases neccesary.

I really don't get why the Israelis are so keen to get rid of Arafat, regardless of what I feel about him, the only other real viable leadership options are Hamas - although I guess that might the whole point, with Hamas in charge Israel can say "look they're all terrorists who want to destroy Israel, and justify the total take-over of Palestine and the "transfer" of all Palestinians.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. arafat not responsible?
after all isnt it arafats Al Asqa murder brigadge that has had suicide bombers of their own? didnt they claim responsibility for killing a judge in israel?

they may publicly have disputes with arafat right now, but without his support and directing of them, they would not exist.

arafat is directly responsible for the violence, just not the sole responsiblity for it.


peace
david
:hippie:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shane_Fergessen Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. that makes so much sense...
I could care less, you demonize Arafat until hell freezes over. He certainly hasn't made a great record of himself as caring about anything but bribing people into liking him and licking Israeli ass.

By all means get rid of him.

Arafat is the devil.

If however you ever feel like looking at reality and a real understanding of what Palestinian politics are and what Arafat really represents (which will probably happen after the hardcore true believers off him and figure out they never had a better
Quisling and another will never come) you will wish to hell you still had him around to tell lies about and kick around while he stuck his tongue down the back of Sharon's trousers to the extent he could.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. The Al Aqsa martyr brigades aren't just having a disagreement
They split off from the PLO. He is not God, and can't control what everyone of his countrymen do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. It's not about me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. I don't blame Arafat...I blame his mother...
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 01:00 PM by cantwealljustgetalon
Palestinians blame Arafat though, attempts by the Guardian to whitewash his filthy ass, aside...



TEN years after returning in triumph from exile to take charge of a newly formed interim Palestinian Authority (PA), Yasser Arafat is feeling the wrath of his own people, who have become increasingly frustrated at the corruption, nepotism and sheer uselessness of his crumbling regime.

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_...



Triggering the uprising was Mr Arafats clumsy attempt to assert his failing authority by dismissing the Gaza security chief and appointing a widely disliked cousin in his place. Such blatant cronyism not only infuriated Mr Qureia, who has been fighting a losing battle to get Mr Arafat to crack down on terrorism and corruption; it was also the signal for militants to press their demands for wholesale changes to the Palestinian Authority, which they also accuse of corruption. On this point, the pragmatists opposing suicide bombings and the futile campaign of violence against Israelis agree. By his own incompetence, Mr Arafat has not only lost a leader of domestic and international credibility but united against himself almost every Palestinian faction, including the militant Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of his own Fatah movement.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,1-1184973,00....



Most of the public in Gaza regards the current clash as a power struggle inside Fatah ahead of the IDF's withdrawal. A hundred poor families could have been fed for a month with the cost of the bullets fired over the past three days, said a businessman close to Fatah.Almost everyone agrees, the problem is Arafat's methods of government. And he's not showing signs of changing.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/453484.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. He is corrupt, but so is Sharon. His son is the one that took
Edited on Fri Jul-23-04 10:55 PM by Classical_Liberal
campaign money from American sources contrary to Israeli law, and formulated the Greek Islands deal. Let's not forget the Bush administrations chrony deals with Halburton and that company that tortured people at Abu Ghraib. Corruption is in no way unique to Palestinian politicians.

Just aside from that corruption has very little to do with terrorism. Furthermore his corruption was known before he ran for election last time and he won anyway. He will also win in any projected election that comes up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
18. The peace that got away...
...

For 12 years, from 1988 through 2000, Ross was the top US diplomat charged with managing the Middle East peace process. He had unique access to virtually every leader in the region, not to mention two US presidents. He probably knows more about the attempts to resolve one of the seminal geopolitical conflicts of our time than anybody else on earth.

...

So why hasn't this deal been struck? Ross blames Arafat. In the final process, at Camp David, the man who seized world attention for Palestinians appeared unable to adjust to anything but living in struggle. "Only one leader," Ross writes, "was unable or unwilling to confront history and mythology: Yasser Arafat."

...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0720/p16s02-bogn.html


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Ross is a known neocon, a supporter of the Iraq war and the settlers
and has about as much credibility as Barak.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. the Guardian has really got their finger on the pulse...NOT...
Arab Times (Kuwait): 'Mr Arafat should quit his position because he is the head of a corrupt authority. There is no point for him to remain in politics... He has destroyed Palestine. He has led it to terrorism, death and a hopeless situation... All Arab leaders know this fact. It won't be possible for us to gain from the Middle East road map for peace if this man remains in power.'

BBC quoted a Jenin Martyrs' Brigade spokesman: 'With all due respect to President Arafat, the Palestinian Authority cannot continue being monopolised by and his relatives...we have our own ways to show our rejection.'

Al-Quds Al-Araby (London): 'What is happening in Gaza is a healthy phenomenon because it is a revolution against corruption and the corrupt... This is a warning not only to Mr Arafat... but to all Arab regimes which subjugate their people by turning a deaf ear to their calls for comprehensive change.'

Daily Star (Lebanon): 'Mr Arafat increasingly lacks credibility and legitimacy... He has brought Palestine to its knees by relying on symbolism rather than bringing about results.'

MSNBC: 'The walls are closing in on Yassir Arafat...never before have so many disparate groups of Palestinians, including those from Arafat's own Fatah movement, formed such a united front on such a clearly definable issue - end corruption or else.'

Pravda: Under the headline, 'Nobody trusts Arafat any more,' stated that 'Everything Yasser Arafat has been doing can be described as an illusion of reforms.'

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Amnesty have been reporting human rights violations
by the PA and other security forces against Palestinians for years.
Charges include detention without charge or trial, torture, and
unfair trial. Sometimes those charged are believed to be in the
pay of the Israelis, sometimes of being involved in attacks on
Hamas or PA members (verbal attacks are enough to get people
arrested), sometimes - who knows?

Arafat has made many promises to tighten up the justice system, but
nothing happens, but no-one outside his tight little circle seems
to know for sure whether he says one thing and does another, or
whether he really has no power any longer over the most militant
Palestinian groups.

He really does seem to have outlived his usefulness, but whether a
replacement could do better for the Palestinians is a moot point.
I also doubt if any Palestinian leader could deal with Sharon, who
has a totally one-eyed view of the situation and is highly unlikely
to give an inch.

Both sides seem to have the worst possible leaders for dealing with
the current situation, and when Bush and his Christian fundies are
thrown into the mix, it doesn't give much cause for hope.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Let's see, you think a member of the Al Aqsa martyr brigade
a group of actual terrorists has a right to blame ARafat for it? Corruptions is a universal problem. I wish all corrupt politicians would quit, it would eliminate the entire Bush administration, not to mention Sharon's cabinet, but it has nothing to do with terrorism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. No, not at all.
Things are bad now for the Palestinians, and perhaps Arafat is an
obvious scapegoat for some of them.

But Arafat is an old man now, and what worked for him 20 or 30 years
ago is not working now. I think he is more concerned now with
preserving his power than in doing what is best for his people. He
has reluctantly agreed to the appointment of a prime minister, and
has then torpedoed both holders of that office. He must realise
that he can't go on forever, and the best thing for the Palestinians
is for a smooth transition of power now. If Arafat dies with no-one
named as a successor, valuable time will be lost while contenders
squabble amongst themselves for the position, and the Palestinians
can't afford that. They need a younger, sharper man at the top to
deal with the Israelis, and hopefully to exercise some control over
the most militant groups. It's time for Arafat to move aside and be
content to be a figurehead. If he relinquishes real power now while
he can do so with dignity, he will always remain an icon and a
rallying figure for his people.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. It would be best to step aside since he is old and infirmed
but the same goes for Sharon, and I would add Shimon Peres. Anyway, I was responding to cantwealljustgetalong, not you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Apologies - it followed my post and I didn't read the numbers.
Anyway, I totally agree with you about Sharon - on the grounds that
he's too old, too arrogant, too thuggish, too bloody-minded, and
too one-eyed to do any thing good or useful in the region at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CaTeacher Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-25-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Arafat is going through a rough time, but
he has served his people well for many years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. He has. The PA under his leadership gained international attention
in the seventies, although the hijacking of airliners can hardly
be called a good thing. But it worked - back then. And there was
recognition that the Palestinians were united under Arafat.

But that was thirty years ago - times have changed, and he's an
older man now. Although he's an icon to the Palestinians, in
practical terms, they're going nowhere, and I think the world is
as sick of suicide bombers as they are of Sharon's wall. There's
a distinct impression of dozens of militant groups all running around
doing their own thing, instead of a cohesive plan to deal with
Israel in the world forum.

Time for a change of tactic, and I think that can only happen with
a change of leadership.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Dec 19th 2014, 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC