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Inquiry after Israeli forces caught using boy as shield (on Jeep)

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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:15 PM
Original message
Inquiry after Israeli forces caught using boy as shield (on Jeep)

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.j...

A photograph of a Palestinian boy tied to an Israeli police jeep has been handed to justice officials charged with investigating complaints over the use of "human shields" against demonstrators.

The boy, 13-year-old Mohammed Bedwan, and three adult protesters were tied to border police vehicles last week during one of what have become almost daily demonstrations against the routing of the Israeli government's barrier through Palestinian land.

The photograph, taken by human rights activists in the village of Biddo, north-west of Jerusalem, shows Mohammed tied by an arm to a mesh on the jeep windscreen - a mesh intended to protect the vehicle and its driver against stones and rocks. Police said last night that the Justice Ministry's police complaints unit was investigating the case.

-snip-

The Supreme Court barred the use of Palestinians as human shields in 2002 after an incident in which soldiers forced the neighbour of a suspected militant to knock on his door and deliver their ultimatum to surrender. The militant shot and killed the man.

Rabbi Arik Ascherman, who heads the organisation Rabbis for Human Rights, says he was also tied to the front of a separate jeep, along with a Palestinian and a Swedish activist from the International Solidarity Movement, after they protested that the boy had been beaten after he was detained. He said he himself was head-butted by the border police unit commander when he was arrested.
-snip-
-------------------------------

what a cowardly thing to do
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. How ironic
In some thread floating around here, there are those who accuse the Palestinian "terrorists" of doing the same--using Palestinian children as shields. Someone even posted a comic of Palestinian gunmen hiding behind a baby carriage.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Of course, the kettle gets billions per year from the US and the unconditional support of the world's only remaining superkettle.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. Indeed
These are called "peaceful" demonstrations. They claim that the demonstrators were unarmed, so how is the child being used as a shield?

He may have been put there to keep him from getting hurt. Of course, all Israelis are used as victims in their Intifada, so the fence is to keep out the terrorists. Bringing a child to a demonstration which might be violent is not the best thing to do. However, was it safe for any child in Israel before the fence went up?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Here's the Photo..
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KerryThatWeight Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
32. Who says that photo is legit?
I don't see any IDF in the picture. It could have been faked like the lgf pictures below. Can haaretzdaily really be 100% trusted?
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. yeah, actually its Hamas! They have tons of vehicles like that.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. You're funny
I mean that in a point and laugh kinda way.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #32
61. 100% trusted? WTF
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walmartsucks Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. He looks really scared
not.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. You sound really intelligent
not.
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walmartsucks Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Believe it or not, I am!
The article said:

"...The boy, 13-year-old Mohammed Bedwan, and three adult protesters were tied to border police vehicles last week..."

Where are the ropes? What about the guns to the head? The vehicle isn't moving. The kid looks like he's relaxing on the hood of a jeep. What does it look like he's doing to you?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. yeah that'd be why the Israeli's are investigating
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 12:07 AM by Djinn
given that few IDF shootings (of kids) are EVER investigating my guess is they KNOW this happened - they have been quoted as saying it's up to the Ministry to decide what if any actions will be taken against those involved...no denial it took place you'll notice
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. you're right
I don't believe you are.

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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Oh come now....the IDF would NEVER do such a thing....
:eyes:

Yeah, the pro-likudnicks like to clamor about how the "terrorists"
"brain wash" children to blow themselves up.
Ummm...I wonder how they'll spin this one...
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shadu Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. The pro-likudnicks do not like facts.
I would not expect them to show up here.
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BunnyThief Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. "I would not expect them to show up here." You rang?
I'm the guy who posted the pictures (and cartoon) being referred to, and the photos are at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... -- there are also pictures there of Palestinian children being used as COMBATANTS.

Now, for the topic at hand.. I can ALMOST see the justification IF the child was being detained and had been handcuffed to the jeep to keep him from fleeing, but instead they should have handcuffed him and put him INSIDE the jeep. Once someone is in custody, it is the duty of those doing the detaining to protect subjects being detained from further harm. The courts were right to ban this practice, and those who did it should be punished.

Now, if you'd like to see similar treatment of children (and worse) that goes UNpunished and UNcondemned, click on the above and follow a few links. Or, for the highlights, check out these two links:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9838

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-ab... /

J.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Hmmm...so, you're anti-UN....
:eyes:

Figures.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Fascist site Little Green Footballs is not a credible source
Go peddle it elsewhere.
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BunnyThief Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Actually, Yahoo news archives...
The littlegreenfootballs.com links actually use Yahoo News photos. I'd link to them directly at Yahoo!, but those pages have expired.

J.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Speaking of littlegreenfootballs....
Take the LGF Quiz!

http://www.drmenlo.com/lgfquiz /

LittleGreenFootballs? or Late German Fascists?
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reel progressive Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. it has some credible articles on its site
like the one dr don posted about british muslims at the israeli-palestinian forum http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=10813_Eur...
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. If the articles are credible, then they can be found somewhere else
If it originated there, it's not credible.
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BunnyThief Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. OK, Mesuleth...
I did a little more digging and found the same photos, this time attributed to AP and Reuters. Your response now?

http://charleston.net/stories/021204/wor_12mideast.shtm...

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?thread...

J.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. What the hell do those photos have to do with tying a child to a jeep?
Riddle me that, Thunny Bief.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. look for similar photos from Iraq
IDF training is all the rage these days.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Supreme Court barred the use of Palestinians as human shields
The Supreme Court barred the use of Palestinians as human shields in 2002 after an incident in which soldiers forced the neighbor of a suspected militant to knock on his door and deliver their ultimatum to surrender. The militant shot and killed the man. -haaretz


I don't know what's worse, that it happens, or that it happens enough to be officially banned. :grr:
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
69. Activists demand Israel ban use of human shields
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/423488.html

<snip>

"Human rights activists have asked the Supreme Court to ban the Israeli military from all use of Palestinian civilians as "human shields" in military operations, a lawyer said on Tuesday.

The Supreme Court barred the practice in 2002 after soldiers forced the neighbour of a suspected militant to knock on his door and deliver an ultimatum to surrender. The militant shot and killed the man.

A lawyer for the Israeli-Arab advocacy group Adalah said the the current ban was not strong enough because it left some leeway for field commanders to press Palestinian civilians into service if they determined such action would not put them in danger.

"What we are asking for is something broader," said Marwan Dalal, the Adalah lawyer who submitted the request last week. "I hope the court will be receptive... Unfortunately, the military is continuing to use civilians as human shields."

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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. They did already...
at least that's what they said in English...
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. The Thing Reminds Me, Sir
Of Old Hickory's response to Justice Marshall's ruling over the Yazoo Land Co. affair: "The Chief Justice has made his decision; let him enforce it." It is quite clear the Israeli military authorities are not taking the necessary steps to enforce the rulings of their own High Court.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. How cowardly to assign guilt before investigation is complete
It's also pretty cowardly to blow up Israeli children, although I guess that's a pretty routine occurance.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I agree. They were probably just giving him a ride to school
:crazy:
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hellboy Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. War is hell!
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 01:01 PM by hellboy
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
37. That's what I said when the last bus blew up
huh,go figure :shrug:

For the sarcastically challenged I didn't really say that...but I might next time thanks to moranic responses like the one above.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. How cowardly to try to distract from the discussion
By pointing out that Palestinians do bad things, too. If you don't have a leg to stand on, point out someone else's wrongs as justification.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. And you distract from my primary point, that no proof of this accusation
has yet surfaced.

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. yeah, that picture is just a big old photoshopped fake
and Haaretz is known for its shoddy reporting.

(sarcasm off)

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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. ??????????
n/t
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. I agree Hardhead...point out the bad things Palestinians
do to the MOST powerful and well armed nation in the Middle East.

OH BTW, Monday, April 26 is Yom Ha'Atzmaut or Israeli Independence Day.

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. What possible valid explaination is there for this?
I fail to see any explaination that would reflect positively on the Israeli military.

Maybe it's just me, but I think tying a kid to a FUCKING CAR is one of those things that doesn't require a whole lot of investigation to find out if its wrong.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. nothing as brave as taking a caterpillar or a tank to somebodies house
or unarmed human beings brave enough to confront such cowards. Tell us some more about cowardice please?
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. You got the wrong website...the racist Arab/Palestinian haters normally
go to www.freerepublic.com Check it out! I think you'll like it.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. More about the Rabbi who came to his rescue...
A left-wing Israeli rabbi who said he too was detained as a human shield when he tried to intervene to free Muhammed Badwan in the past week said he planned to press charges.

"It is very depressing and very sad to see that we have come to this position where this is what we do. There is disbelief," said Rabbi Arik Ascherman, head of Rabbis for Human Rights, which distributed the picture, taken by a foreign photographer, of Muhammed strapped to a jeep.

But Muhammed, though he said he still wanted to throw stones at soldiers, said he did not consider all Israelis his enemy.

"If I saw an Israeli child, I would respect him, not hit him," Muhammed said. "The soldier was not good, he was like an animal. But the man who came to help me is an honourable person."

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=123&art_id=qw10...
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. That is so poignant
That Israeli rabbi is indeed a brave and honorable man.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I thought so n/t
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. More re the Rabbi as a shield also. Most Humane Army? Hardly!
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 11:23 PM by Tinoire
Rabbis for Human Rights ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

Child Used as Human Shield after Beating
Rabbis for Human Rights

Four arrestees, including a 12 year old boy, RHR Executive Director Rabbi Arik Ascherman, an additional Palestinian and ISM activist, were used as human shields in Bido on Thursday. After local Palestinians and Israeli activists saw a young boy being beaten by border police, the boy's mother sent a Palestinian man to try and help him and Rabbi Ascherman also approached the police. Both were arrested, along with a Swedish ISM activist.

The boy, crying, shaking from fear and eventually cold, was sat on the hood of a jeep and tied to the bars protecting the glass. The other three arrestees were bound and placed in front of a second jeep. After the arrests, local Palestinians began throwing stones, a number of them hitting the jeeps. The unit commander was Shahar Yitzhaki

Rabbi Ascherman repeatedly requested over the next few hours that they not be used as human shields, that the boy receive medical attention and that the officers identify themselves. He also asked to lend his coat to the child and to stand in front of the child to protect him from stones. All these requests were met with physical and verbal threats, orders to "shut up," and/or derision. The division commander, "Benny," also visited the site during these events. Rabbi Ascherman also directed his requests to him. Rabbi Ascherman was eventually told that the boy had been checked by a medic before Rabbi Ascherman was arrested.

Rabbi Ascherman was seized by his throat and head butted by Yitzhaki upon arrest. The arrestees were moved from the scene after several hours, but kept outside. The child was allowed to go home around 18:30. By this time, the adults were also shaking from cold and sharing Rabbi Ascherman's coat. They were released, but Yitzhaki "rearrested" them and took them to the Givat Zeev Police station. There, after continuing to be held outside, Rabbi Ascherman convinced the attending officers to allow them to sit inside. The Palestinian was taken to Ofer, while Ascherman and the ISM activist were conditionally released late that night.

http://www.occupationalhazard.org/article.php?IDD=649

============

Eyewitness report of killings in Bidou
Gush Shalom


"It was hell. Soldiers shot without a stop. I saw a Palestinian demonstrator get killed In front of my eyes," said Israeli Peace activists who took part in the demonstrations in Bidou.

"It was horror. Hell. The soldiers were shooting incessantly. I saw a Palestinian demonstrator get hit in the forehead and fall down, bleeding. He died several minutes later" told Jonathan Polak, an activist in the Anarchists Against Walls movement, who was amongst the activists who arrived today at the village of Bidou, in order to take part in the protest against the fence that was organized by the people of Bidou. The fence in Bidou, as in many other places, will cut off a large part of the village's land.

Other activists said: "We have never seen such brutality. In the morning, thousands of the people of the village went and sat in the path of the bulldozers, where their olive groves are about to be uprooted. Then these huge bulldozers came. Each one was accompanied by 50 soldiers. They attacked the villagers and beat them brutally, driving them into the streets of the village. Inside the village a real battle started. The youngsters of the village threw stones, and the army responded with gas bombs, but very soon moved to using live munitions. They occupied a building in the center of the village and snipers shot at people from its roof.

"We ran to the clinic to try and help. Wounded people kept coming, at least seventy or eighty people. In addition to the two who were killed by live ammunition, another elderly man died from a heart attack caused by a gas bomb that entered his home, and a young boy who is severely wounded in the head.

"The only sin of these people is that they tried to protect the land which has been theirs for generations and their olive trees which are their only source of income.

"The army brutality, the brute oppression and the shooting -- all these confirm all claims brought against the fence in Hague. It is absolutely clear now that the fence, built deep in Palestinian territory, is another means of oppression and occupation, and has nothing to do with security."

http://www.occupationalhazard.org/article.php?IDD=646

Surprisingly, the vile neanderthals at LittleGreenFootballs see things so differently.

====

www.OccupationalHazard.org is an effort to confront the Israeli-Palestinian conflict honestly and constructively, towards the goal of replacing conflict with coexistence. We commit ourselves to presenting an accurate, balanced and current account of the conflict. We include in our account positive developments, on both sides of the conflict, that mainstream news media tend not to report. This site
warns of the hazards, for both peoples, of Israel's rule over territories occupied since 1967;
reports grassroots efforts, Palestinians and Israelis, on the way to rapprochement between the two peoples, noting their successes and the obstacles they face;
points out and corrects errors in accounts, the news media and others;
makes available news stories that have not had the exposure they deserve, as well as news from sources that have had no exposure.
We hope to show the public what unites us, as well as what divides us. Our commitments transcend ideology. In this site you will encounter Palestinians and Israelis, Zionists and non-Zionists, religious and nonreligious Jews, Moslems and Christians, and more; you will share their perspectives and insights. The challenge is not ideological but practical: to live, and let live, in our diversity. We can meet this challenge only if we are honest and accurate.
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Kinkistyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. f I feel like crying.
Because there can be some people so terrible, like those Israeli soldiers who used the kid as a shield, and some people who can be so good, like the Rabbi Arik Ascherman.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Me too. Here's a picture of him / Express your concern and your support


The Arrest of an Activist



Express your concern and your support

Sign the letter of Support to urge the Israeli government to exercise wisdom by droping the case against Rabbi Ascherman and to rescind its policy of home demolitions. We believe that the word of the prophets still speaks to us: ultimately, Zion will only be redeemed through justice and those who return to her through acts of righteousness.

"..Rabbi Arik Ascherman (Executive Director of Rabbis for Human Rights) along with two co-defendants are on trial in Jerusalem (next hearing will be in September 2004), for standing in front of bulldozers in an effort to block the demolition of Palestinian homes. They are charged with interfering with the police in the execution of their duties. If convicted, they face up to three years in jail or a fine..."


http://www.rhr.israel.net/coop/index.shtml
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
46. waiting for someone
to call the rabbi an traitor or some other vile slander.

Thank God for the Rabbi's who understand justice, there are many of them
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Aussie_Hillbilly Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #46
62. The Rabbi must be an Anti-Semite?
Or perhaps he is a self-hating Jew?


</sarcasm>

He is a hero. I hope this inspires more pro-peace Israelis to stand up to the fascists who run their country.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sick
Granted the kid shouldn't be out throwing rocks (or even in the area watching others throw rocks), but what SICK FUCK ties a child to his car to use as a human shield?

It is going to take a combined effort by the SANE people, on both sides, to stop the extremists from their respective religions - even if that means they have to kill them personally. Otherwise the cycle of violence will never end between I/P.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
67. the charges
It is just a PR ploy to get sympathy, and I see that it was effective.

The stone-throwers happen to be the pro-Palestinian demonstrators. Of course, everyone knows stone are just pebbles that never hurt anyone (if the Israelis are the target).

Lets look at the terrorist murder of a woman and her four daughters. Not only was her vehicle shot up as it was traveling to their home, the terrorists approached it and shot each occupant to make sure they are dead.

They have to be monsters to do this. Not the Lehi, not the Irgun, to Ariel Sharon or the IDF have ever committed such despicable acts.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. nice non-response...
:crazy:
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. The Israeli Supreme Court just got around to banning it in 2002?
Even worse, the issue had to go all the way to the Supreme Court to get the practice to stop? This is news you will never see on CNN. And I think that's more disgusting than the act itself. Notice that Humvee he was strapped to? God Bless America. I live for the day when this country cuts all its aid to Israel, but I am despondent it will never come. Sometimes I feel this country is too racist and too easily led by the corporate and government propaganda. And sometimes I wonder if it's really the media's fault. Sometimes I wonder if it's that Americans REALLY DO UNDERSTAND that people in other countries are oppressed to make their lives more comfortable (even if they're ignorant, they just know it somehow), and that's okay by them. Maybe that's where all this America First garbage come from. Sometimes I can't decide which is worse-- religion or nationalism. Both do so much harm, and I fear it may be impossible to break the grip of either over the people.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. The U.S. isn't alone in being kept in ignorance.
Articles and photos like these won't get published in Australian
mainstream press either. And while we may get the occasional
documentary on television telling the story from the Palestinian
side, we never see the dead or maimed. Heaven forbid - people might
be shocked!
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
47. I don't normally defend the Australian scum
but this story did turn up in mainstream Australian press

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/23/1082616331713...

Although no doubt some MP will now be quoted saying how this story "proves" Fairfax's antisemitism because it wasn't floowed by a list of every crime ever committed by a Palestinian ever!
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Aussie_Hillbilly Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #47
63. The Age here in Melbourne is pretty good too.
It's only on TV and radio and 95% of newspapers that you'll find nakedly pro-Zionist bias. Okay, I see your point.

The Age ran an article about a visiting ISM activist on page three. It was the first place I heard about him.

Fearless, ethical journalism isn't dead. It's only buried under Rupert Murdoch's fat body, and Foxman's at the ADL.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
72. Misleading
Edited on Wed May-05-04 11:37 PM by Gimel
Furthermore, there is no proof of the claims, so that is an excellent reason for not proliferating such propaganda.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. So child abuse is 'propaganda' if it's Palestinian children?
No proof of the claims?? There's a photo. There's a Rabbi who witnessed what happened and tried to intervene. There's an Italian journalist who took the photo. Are they all liars, Gimel? Trying to claim this incident didn't happen or needs to be proved beyond the point it already has been sort of reeks of a big case of denial. What would satisfy you by the way of proof? Two pages of signatures from extreme settlers saying they know it's true appearing in Arutz Sheva? ;)

Violet...
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. IDF chained a RABBI too???
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
33. I hate gross generalizations...
First off, I never go to the I/P threads, because many times, I see bigotry and prejudice there, from both sides. It is like rationality takes a back seat to emotions, and charged emotions at that. If true, this story is deplorable and the soldiers responsible should be prosecuted to the fullest extant of the law.

One thing I hate about these debates are when they are framed like this: "Palensteinians need to do this..." "Israelis need to do that...", this is stupid, and deplorable. One thing people tend to forget is that neither group is unanimous in how to handle the situation. They are NOT monolithic blocks, there is no 100% agreement in on any issue there. For some reason it is acceptable for us to do that, to either group, why not extend the logic to other groups. On AA: "Blacks need to do this..." "Whites need to do that...", now I ask you, how does that sound, bigotted, or generalized, aren't they one and the same?

To be honest, I will critisize the actions of those responsible, whether it is a suicide bomber blowing up Isreali Bus, or an IDF soldier who straps a kid to a jeep as a human shield. Both are the works of people who do not value human life, however NOT EVERYONE IN EITHER GROUP APPROVES OF THESE METHODS! So why blame them, is every single American responsible for every single death of innocent Iraqi civilians. We need to attack the perpretrators of these acts, but not a whole people, for that is bigotry, regardless of whose side they are on. Personally I do not "Support" either side, I blame those in power for abusing it, not those who simply live there, trying to survive. Whether Israeli or Palenstinian, there are innocent and guilty in both groups, but not everyone on either side is good or bad. Look at who tried to rescue the boy, a Rabbi, why fight over who did what and when, when we could simply fight for the rights of self-determination, through peace.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
36. I'm sure someone will drag out a pic of the kid burning a flag
That'll justify it, I guess.

Until then, I'm surprised to see so little defense of what promises to be a groundbreaking new tactic!

Surely someone can step up to the plate and deliver a load of tired verbiage to justify this brilliant (and ALL NATURAL) form of body armor to protect Our Favorite Moral Army With the Mostest...

C'mon, you know you want to!

Here are a selection of sample opening lines:

1) Well, if Arafat didn't send billions of dollars to Paris, the Palestinian youth wouldn't need to hitch rides to school on the hood of friendly vehicles.

2) The child was clearly harboring ISM-linked Hamas terrorists in his ears. The ride was merely intended to gently jostle the boy's ears and extract the terrorists.

3) He wasn't tied to a jeep - he was Peace Linked to a PeaceMobile for a better Peace VantagePoint to sneak a Peace Peek at the Peace Fence, already in Peace Progress!
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I'd laugh even more
if someone wasn't bound to use those excuses sooner or later.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at your post.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. you are a hoot ...man
can I use those lines in my next Imperial Empire undertaking ..
:hi: :smoke:
great twisted Orwellian dark humor :thumbsup:
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melbrooks Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. Propalestianans are such suckers for PLO propoganda, lol.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 04:49 AM by melbrooks
I'm sure that these propalestians would defend Al Capone. They would say that poor Al is being persecuted by the imperialistic police, lol. :P
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Yeah,and those oh so savvy Pro-Likudniks
see through it all :eyes:
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melbrooks Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. It's not hard to see through. They've been doing this propoganda for
many years. The old "David and Goliath, poor me" angle.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. uh huh
and Israel never uses any propaganda. :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Oh and Israel with its 200 or so nuclear warheads
Never gets the David and Goliath, "poor poor widdle baby country" treatment from you and your ilk.

It's not hard to see through at all.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
66. oops all this time I forgot to defend Al Capone ...
Edited on Sun May-02-04 05:11 PM by number6
well you know how us turr-ist lovin anti bu$h
people are, furgetfull :smoke: :crazy:
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
54. where are all...
the "right-wing sharon-sucking likudists" (not my words).

Probably off in some other thread shedding bogus crocodile tears.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. kick...
not waiting for a response...

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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I forgot...
small minds "don't do" nuance...
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
73. As Reinhart noted in Yediot Aharonot yesterday
In an article calling for a complete inquiry into "the violence in Biddu", she noted that:
"The army blocks all channels of protest. It is forbidden to even stand up in silence with signs"
Adding that:
"We are still a democracy ... it is not for the army to set the boundaries of protest."
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2912028,00.html (Hebrew)
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