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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:34 PM
Original message
Palestinian plan says no to attacks on civilians
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/413442.html

The Hamas, Fatah and Islamic Jihad leaderships in Gaza have prepared a draft "National Plan" that "emphasizes the right to use violence to oppose the occupation and the settlements, while avoiding turning civilians from either side into targets for attack."

The document, which summarizes the outcome of meetings between Abdel Aziz Rantisi of Hamas, Ahmed Halas of Fatah, and representatives from the Islamic Jihad and other, smaller armed political factions, is regarded as a basis for negotiations between the PA and all the armed factions for a mutually agreed leadership to control Gaza after Israel withdraws.

The document sums up meetings that have been underway between the faction leaders in recent weeks, climaxing on Saturday at a meeting of the "Monitoring Committee of the National and Islamic Organizations."

At this stage, the document is a draft that binds nobody, but it is being called a National Plan. It is the first such document prepared by the Palestinians in response to the disengagement from Gaza, and broadly deals with the issues raised during the hudna talks last year between the PA, Hamas, Fatah and other armed groups.

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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is *very* good news.
I've been waiting for something like this for a long time.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Watch Sharon closely
Obviously he'll be looking to throw in a major IDF operation to derail this terrible threat.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. My thoughts exactly.
If they go through with this plan, they'll be far more dangerous to Sharon and company than any suicide bomber.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. exactly!
!
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. It Will Be Interesting, Mr. Priv
To see how well this resolve is stuck to. A good deal will turn on the definition of civilian, of course: if the old line that all persons subject to be called to the colors, or who pay taxes, are combatants, that has been employed in the past, remains operative, it will not make much difference.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Notice how they mention the settlements
So they will still continue to kill civilians.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Many settlers are paramilitaries.
They're fair game.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. No they are not
They are civilians. The only reason they have guns is for self defense.

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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Then what are they doing taking over villiages and olive groves
and settling and squating the land?
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Next
You'll be saying the Hebron maniacs are a bastion of peace and tranquility....
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. "Hebron maniacs"
Yeah, I expected you would show your true feelings.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Hey
If it makes you feel any better, I think they ought to free Noam Federman. ;-)

BTW, "maniacs" is a paraphrase of "hilltop lunatics", a phrase used in the center-right Israeli press to refer to the ultra-right settler movements.

Those fanatics are well supported by the current government of Israel incidentially, and friends of them penetrate the highest levels of power (say the current Knesset speaker, who says that "Hebron and Jerusalem are the eternal capitals of Israel", Housing Ministry officials etc).

But if you think the Hebron maniacs are worth supporting, go right ahead. I'd be interested to see whether you approve of their eulogies for Jewish terrorists though. :shrug:
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Some Settlers, Mr. Muddle
Edited on Thu Apr-08-04 12:55 PM by The Magistrate
Are indeed members of militia organizations of most unsavory character, and so are to my view every bit as much combatants as any member of Hamas, or any other armed irregular Arab Palestinian body. We are probably in agreement, however, that in many cases where attacks are made on settlements, the persons killed are undeniably civilians.

It is still worth noting, it seems to me, that confining attacks to settlements, even if these do involve civilians, is something of an improvement: it is at least a limitation on the exercise of illegitimate violence, and is a strategy more likely to have a desireable effect in influencing Israeli political life towards a withdrawl from the lands over-run in '67, which ought to be, at least, the chief goal of Arab Palestinian military activity.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Merely 'unsavory character'???
Fascinating that those who commit attacks on Israeli civilians (and the military, it appears) are described as 'psycho murdering terrorists', yet Israelis who commit attacks on Palestinian civilians are merely of 'unsavory character'. Disgusting...

I suggest you go and read about what these MANIACS do to Palestinian civilians. They're not shy of murdering them, and there's zero in the way of self-defence about it. I'd expect that someone who saw no excuse for what they do would be just as effusive with their adjectives as they are for terrorism carried out by Palestinians...

'Except among a few here'? Bullshit. If there are a few here, name them, cause I don't see them. Unless yr defining terrorism as attacks on military targets and then I'd fall into that group as an occupied people have the right to defend themselves from the occupier...

Violet...
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. colonists will *always* be fair game...
unless and until every last indigenous person that would take up arms is killed.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Funny, that's what Hamas considers ALL Israelis
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Mr. Muddle see The Magistrate's post # 20 and read it
carefully.... :hi: and have a nice day .
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Read my response
Having a nice day is optional.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Depends on our support
Edited on Thu Apr-08-04 10:41 AM by tinnypriv

For this non-violence.

Given the completely shameful silence going on right now about the courageous actions of the fence demonstrators all over the WB, I'm fairly sure Israel will just be able to crush this annoyance with violence, as in the past (Intifada I).

When you've got dozens of demonstrations a month, all being fired on by the occupying forces (not even the U.S. in Iraq does that) and still nobody cares, you can understand the despair of the Palestinians and Israelis who are trying hard to remove ethnic violence from the conflict.

To quote a Palestinian from back in 2000: "If they don't want demonstrations, they'll get bombs". That was said in reaction to Israel banning Jewish peace activists from joining Palestinian friends in the WB for protests.

That sort of interference is going on right now, and unless sombody stops Israel, it's going to carry on doing it. Same principle applies to the savagery it is unleashing every day on poor farmers who are trying to apply "the peaceful way" to save their land and win their freedom.

Of course, as soon as there is a suicide bombing, I'm sure the usual hypocrites will trot out their line...

The Arabs ought to try non-violence, then maybe we could be so vulgar as to actually pat them on the back.

...right while they're pretending not to see the real non-violence going on under their very noses.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. "Courageous actions of the fence demonstrators"
The fence demonstrators are trying to stop Israel from protecting itself. That's not courageous, it's deadly.




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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yes
By advocating a fence on the Green Line, just like the Palestinian PM. Real deadly.

:dunce:
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. There Should be More Focus On That, Mr. Priv
It is unfortunate, and in too many ways to recite, that other events are certain to take precedence in the popular notice just now. The attempts of Arab Palestinians to block the confiscation of their lands for construction of the security barrier by non-violent demonstration are worthy of commendation, and deserve to succeed.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. You mean Iraq?
The press won't even discuss anything to do with US policy vis a vis Israel on that either.

They're either terrified, don't care, or support it.1

-----

1. As usual, the Israeli press has no qualms about discussing it, in detail. cf. the article by Boaz Gaon, Ma'ariv, 2 April 2004 (Hebrew only), which discusses the penetration of Iraqi reconstruction by Israeli companies (considered "politically explosive"). It turns out that over 70 are operating in Iraq, with some allowed to sub-contract as part of Bechtel. "Naturally", the "country of origin is altered", so as to "conceal" Israeli business. Apparently Eliot Abrams was involved in this at some point (the article nicely points out that he is "one of the hawks who surround the President").
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. I agree...
"The attempts of Arab Palestinians to block the confiscation of their lands for construction of the security barrier by non-violent demonstration are worthy of commendation, and deserve to succeed."

Instead of commendation, I've seen a lot of condemnation of the non-violent demonstrations, and all sorts of word gymnastics to try to twist non-violent demonstrations into violent ones. Which kind of gives me an indication of what would happen if the Palestinian people en-masse resorted to non-violent protest. They'd be demonised and accused of being violent, so really none of the more extreme 'pro-Israeli' rhetoric would change or even lose pace...

Violet...
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. That Is True, Ma'am
More hard-line advocates would continue to find bad things to say. But such rhetoric would become increasing isolated, and ever harder to maintain, since it would be clear to most people, particularly to people who themselves do not care a great deal about the matter, that such rhetorical excess was a poor fit with reality, just as most people disregard the rhetorical excesses of hard-line advocates for Arab Palestine. If non-violent action replaced attack against Israeli civilians as the evident face of the Arab Palestinian resistance, this effect would be greatly heightened.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. True.
But this is still better than nothing.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. Now they'll claim
that they never murdered more than 900 Israelis in the past three years.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. Including Hamas, IJ
The inclusion of the terrorist organizations under one flag, so to speak, solves one problem that has confronted Israel and eluded peace for several years, that the PA claims they cannot control Hamas. If they are at last one entity, at least they can be dealt with directly.

The inclusion of the terrorist organizations as legitimate factions, however, does not fulfill the requirements of the Road Map. It remains to be seen if this will become acceptable to the Americans or the Israelis.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. The best news coming out of this situation I have heard in a while now
.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. Nice! Well, an improvement.
I read that Israel has changed its mind and won't destroy homes they're going to vacate in Gaza. That's welcome news too.
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walmartsucks Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-04 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
29. Wonderful if true
But I'll believe it when I see it
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