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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:20 PM
Original message
U.S. cautions PA against including Hamas in leadership
The United States has warned the Palestinian Authority against inviting Hamas to join a unified leadership group, saying that it opposes any cooperation with the militant Palestinian organization.

In an interview to the German magazine Focus, Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat expressed support for the inclusion of the militant organization in the Palestinian leadership.

Asked if he supported Hamas' integration into the PA, Arafat replied: "Yes. They were there from the beginning, even if they did later break away."

But a State Department spokesman Tuesday voiced American opposition to such a move, calling for Hamas to be ostracized and stripped of any power and influence as an organization.

Read more...


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ex_jew Donating Member (627 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Maybe George the idiot should just BUTT OUT and let the
people of the region make up their own goddamn mind what to do. Or will they be missing out on the American ideal of democracy ?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hamas is a terrorist organization
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:32 PM by Gimel
Inclusion in the PA, Arafat says that it is nothing new, helps to unify the power under Palestinian control, but that advantage is off-set by the radicalization of the PA. It is not a move designated in the Road Map.

If George butts out, so should everyone.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Something like that.
I don't think it's being author of Middle East peace
so much as not being seen as a warmonger. Hence we have
to have periodic dramas wherein George and Arik are
seen to be striving mightily for progress toward peace
and tranquility.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Wave a magic wand
Is that what would mean the harbinger of peace to you? GWB is not Messiah, that is understood.

Unfortunately, the peace will not be established by letting forces with real destructive agendas take a free hand in the region.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. I didn't say that.
I said George and Arik don't care a fig about peace in the region.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I know you didn't
You may be right about Georgie, it's not his highest priority. Arik also has priorities, and that doesn't mean peace at any price, like some pacifists would have it. Just let Israelis dig deeper into burrows or jump into the sea if they can't stand buses blowing up all over the place.

Remember that the price of oil is the most important thing to Americans, and of course, their tax money.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Arik has done nothing whatever to bring about peace.
Lot's of talk, but no action, nothing, zero.
And lots of things to exacerbate the conflict.
This is obvious to anyone that cares to examine the record.
All the rhetoric in the World will not change that.

As for George, he likes war, it's his main political platform.
We went to great lengths to drag us into this completely
unnecessary mess in Iraq under the delusion that it would
get him re-elected, enhance his political power, and line the
pockets of his friends.

I sympathize with your position, but being delusional about
the intentions of your political leadership won't get you
anywhere.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Whether or not
The significant reduction in terrorist attacks in 2003 compared to 2002 is a result of Sharon's actions as PM is open to debate. I think it does have something to do with his Defensive Shield actions.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I have no doubt that that may reasonably be called a result
of Arik's actions as PM. It is however, more in the nature
of conduct of the war than an effort to make peace. Making
peace would be indicated by doing and saying conciliatory
things and making compromises and concessions, putting oil
on the water so to speak. The wall is clearly intended to
avoid or minimize such actions; that is, it is intended to
avoid having to make peace by giving the Israel citizenry the
illusion that something is being done to ensure their physical
security. Not that lowering the number of attacks is a bad
thing, but there are much more effective ways than a wall and
lots of violence if one is actually willing to make peace.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. It's like this:
If you are not willing to make any concessions, compromises,
or commitments to satisfy one's enemies complaints, and to
keep them, then any protestations of a desire for peace one
might make are vacuous. One may desire peace, but one intends
to continue the conflict.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Perhaps like
supporting the establishment of a Palestinian state (Oslo); giving the Palestinians nearly half of greater Jerusalem for their capital (Camp David 2); offering cooperation in the development of infrastructure (Oslo and interim agreements); providing jobs for a quarter of the population (prior to Intifada II).
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. So have you kept those agreements? nt
Edited on Thu Apr-08-04 12:39 AM by bemildred
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. They were in effect
when the Intifada was called by Arafat, after he rejected Camp David II. Yes, Oslo was being kept by Rabin and Barak, despite repeated violations by the Palestinians, and non-fulfillment of their obligations.

Of course, with the slaughter of Israelis in 2002, Operation Defensive Shield was launched, and the military re-occupation of PA areas of responsibility and full control (Oslo Accords that were implemented).
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. I see we are not going to get anywhere with this.
If it is all the Palestinians fault, and there have been no
mistakes made by the Israeli government, and there are no "good"
Palestinians that you can work with, then you are indeed stuck.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Those are your words
and I don't stand by them. I never said that. Israel's right to self-defense cannot be pushed under the rug. The peace process had not concluded. Arafat pre-empted it with the Intifada. That is not to say that Israel has never made mistakes. Your claim is a straw man argument.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Yes they are. And I stand by them.
If you want peace, you must do peacemaking things. The fact
that you did some peacemaking things some time ago does not
let you off the hook now. You must do peacemaking things now
if you want peace now.

My original point was and is that Sharon does not want peace,
and that this is easily seen by the fact that he pursues only
war-making activities, provocations, threats and aggressions.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Peace-making
Offerings of peace and peace making has occurred at appropriate times. Timing is of great importance. When you get an attack you don't offer peace. True, after a major attack on Israelis, Arafat always offers peace.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. When you have been attacked is an excellent time to offer peace.
Of course it might look like you are "surrendering" or
"negotiating under fire", but you can't offer peace at any time
without admitting that you want to quit, eh? You have to
make up your mind, do you want to stop the killing or do you
want to make sure that no violence goes unavenged? You cannot
do both at the same time. I mean, that is exactly what the
Palestinians are being asked to do, surrender, admit defeat,
sue for peace under fire. Why is it OK for them but not anybody
else?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. What is not OK
Negotiating is fine. Often attacks are not revenged. However, remember that the terrorists are attacking, not the "PA". So there was no one to talk to who would stop the terror. That is a major flaw in the argument. Making peace with the PA would not stop terror.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. You are not fighting the PA.
You are fighting the Palestinian people.
That's who you have to make peace with.
Give them food and jobs and security and educational
opportunities and you will be amazed at how quickly the
terror goes away and how willing the vast majority will
become to helping you stomp out the recalcitrant.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-04 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Give them
heaven on earth. The whole world will be begging at our door steps. OK, if the American taxpayers will subsidize the operation.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. We report. You decide. nt
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-04 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. It is not Israel's job to give the Palestinians the moon
If others wish to do so, that is great.

Among the things you wish Israel to give is security, yet the Palestinians don't consider returning the favor.

And Israel had given jobs. It is the Intifada that is impeding jobs and food, not Israel.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Fine. Leave things as they are. I don't care. nt
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Then why do you post here
If you don't care?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. It is what YOU do or think that I don't care about. nt
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ex_jew Donating Member (627 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I can't believe you're still talking about the bloody "road map"
What the hell does it matter anymore ? Did it call for Sharon to start killing off any other leader whenever he felt like it ?

I am ALL for George to keep his sad-ass advice to himself. And his guns, missiles, helicopters etc. Why the hell should anyone listen to him ?

I firmly believe that until George shows his true colors by "pacifying" Iraq (no doubt by killing thousands or tens of thousands more people) his impact on the rest of the Middle East or anywhere else is effectively zero. Israel had better start planning real hard for life on its own. The US can't even impose its will on one over-weight goon with 500 supporters.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Since it was always intended as a PR strategy
to pretend that George and the US Government give
a rat ass about an I/P settlement, and since it continues
to be serviceable for that purpose, and it also allows
George to look "strong willed" to stick to it, why should
they give it up?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Any other leader
It may come to that. The Road Map was still-born, but that doesn't mean the Bush has given up on reviving it. In the meantime, Israel's right to self defense is paramount. Signing on to the Road Map didn't tie Israel's hands in fighting terror.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. The murders
inside Israel are far more than anything either the IDF or the "settlers" have encountered. The murdered civilian deaths are greater by far.

957 people have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000.
Between September 29, 2000 and March 1, 2004, Magen David Adom treated a total of 6,228 casualties as follows:
834 killed, 541 severely injured, 778 moderately and 4,075 lightly injured, among them 11 MDA staff members.
(IDF casualties treated by IDF medical personnel are not included in these figures.)


http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%20Obstacle%20to%20...

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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. And how many Palestinians
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 07:31 AM by bluesoul
has the IDF killed? And civilians among them? Several thousand!

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualt...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. That's not the issue you raised.
We are discussing murders of Israelis.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Oh it does have much to do with it
Palestinians are also people you know Gimel, and in I/P they're the P part. It has everything to do with this whole thing. Killed, injured, demolished. These people exist and their misery exists, thanks to Israel...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Hitting a civilian target
is not self-defense. Sorry. It has nothing to do with the defense of Palestinians to shoot a pregnant woman who is driving to her home within Israel. That is totally abhorrent. If they want to stage an uprising, okay. Protest the situation. Israel was working to reach agreements. But they prefer, Mr. Bluesoul, to back the terrorist organizations such as Hamas who strike at civilians, primarily. So more than 820 civilians are murdered and 6,000 are wounded, many severely. Untold thousands of lives are destroyed. That does not help the situation of the Palestinians in any way. In fact, it has only worsened their plight.
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Sharon's governement is a terrorist organization
But what can you do?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. That is your assessment
It may be shared by other posters here, but not by a majority of Americans.
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Who cares about Americans?
My assesment is shared by majority of the people of the world.

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. And how do they know?
They have no way of getting valid information in the issues. They believe what they are told.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. The majority is not always right
Hell 1.2 billion live under Chinese totalitarianism. So there goes one fifth of the world's population because you know they aren't getting proper information.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. There's still
the rest of the world living in democracies that doesn't agree with ISrael and it's policies. Look at the vote in the UN. USA, Israel and two US colonies (Islands) and that's it! Tells you something about what kind of support Israel has. AMEN
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. The world is generally self serving
The whole world survives on oil. The Arab world has tons of oil.

You figure it out.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. a majority of Americans will come to know
the Sharon Government is corrupt and criminal ...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Corruption
Edited on Thu Apr-08-04 01:23 AM by Gimel
is yet to be proved and criminal it is not.

On edit: Actually, the corruption scadals involving Sharon pre-date the current administration, so that claim is false as well.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. No real difference
The PA led by Arafat, a terrorist, or the PA with Hamas.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
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