Background / Rachel Corrie and Israel's army - a death in vain?

[DuctapeFatwa]

It is one year to the day that Rachel Corrie, a 23-year-old peace activist from Olympia, Washington, was demonstrating against house demolitions in Rafah, southern Gaza, when she was crushed to death in the slow advance of a mammoth IDF armor-plated bulldozer.

...Cited by some as a Joan of Arc facing danger shorn of arms and armor, her portrait appears on a wall mural in San Francisco beside that of Che Guevara.

One eulogy, a commentary entitled "Heroine of the Palestinian Struggle" in Kenya's Daily Nation newspaper, likened her to Anne Frank.

..The deaths of Rachel Corrie and the others notwithstanding, the army has not substantially altered its response to demonstrators..

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=405340&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1&contrassID=2

[IronLionZion]

1. If it was any other country

Bush would have already invaded it. It really is a shame that Sharon's Israel can get away with this kind of shit.

[Gimel]

26. A US citizen

Should Bush invade revenge Rachel Corrie? Is that what you suggest? Why didn't he invade to save Nachshon Wachsman, a US citizen, who was abducted and tortured for days before he was murdered?


1994, 9 October – IDF Sgt. Nachshon Wachsman, 19, was abducted and murdered by Hamas terrorists in Dir Naballah (Parents from USA).
(Arutz 7 INN)

[_Jumper_]

28. That "US citizen" was fighting for a foreign country's military

n/t

[Gimel]

31. That makes no difference

his citizenship remained intact.

[IronLionZion]

55. I suggest demanding Israel explain itself

and either justify the murder or apologize. It's terrible what happened to Wachsman but atrocities have been committed on both sides. One side happens to be a nation's government. US foreign policy towards Israel is not even-handed at all.

[Gimel]

81. What happened to Wachsman

was a war crime. It is against international agreements to kidnap soldiers and to torture them. They should be given humane treatment, not murdered. What happened to Rachel Corrie was accidental. She jumped in front of a military vehicle on a work assignment. Then she fell out of view of the driver. She took her own life by putting herself in a position to be killed.

[Jim Sagle]

42. Horseshit. If it was any other country, it would not have gotten any

publicity.

[IronLionZion]

54. When a foreign government murders a US citizen

there is a lot of publicity and some kind of action by the US government.

[Jim Sagle]

60. This wasn't murder. She intruded on a police action.

[drdon326]

61. How sad....

for the bulldozer driver.

Whatever sympathy I had for her parents was lost was
the sucked up to arafat. They have to live with the fact
they let their terror supporting princess go into a war
zone in order to play chicken with heavy machinery.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

92. I'm sure her parents don't really give a shit about your "sympathy".

Calling a dead girl names after she is murdered. That doesn't sound extreme at all. Does it?

[GabysPoppy]

93. after she is murdered.?

Were you an eyewitness to the accident too?

Or are you just content to be judge and jury?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

94. I'll take the second, for $500 dollars.

Pro Sharon people don't seem to have a problem doing it themselves (content to be judge and jury).

[Gimel]

87. An investigation

The incident was investigated. The limited visibility from the cab of the dozer, the loud noise of the operation, the task at hand occupied the driver's attention. RC, like any pedestrian on Israeli streets, should have been concerned for her own safety, and that was the logical assumption of the driver.

[a_random_joel]

2. I am saddened by this loss, but...

Where are the memorials for all the innocent civilians slaughtered by Palestinian suicide bombers?

Until there is fair recognition by all sides... resentment and retribution will continue to exist as a surrogate for peace.

[ButterflyBlood]

3. I usually don't read this forum, but I did today

and I have to congratulate you on making such a rational and not so insenstive statement.

there are others here making comments you could easily find on Free Republic, especially the disgusting pancake jokes.

[a_random_joel]

4. Here at DU? That is disturbing...

I am saddened by the loss of life on either side.

I am also saddened that so many here have chosen sides. I will admit I retain some bias towards Israel due to my heritage. That said, I believe Sharon needs to go. now.

[RC]

5. Read this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x60511

Israel has an very well equipped military, backed by the United states. What does Palestine have to fight with? Not a whole lot.

If the Israeli army would stop the destruction of private homes and schools, stop shooting unarmed children and other innocents in the back, maybe, just maybe the bombings would slow down and even stop? Ya think?

[a_random_joel]

6. Perhaps you do not remember...

Israel has an very well equipped military, backed by the United states. What does Palestine have to fight with?

When the shoe was on the other foot? There is a history that surpasses the recent intifada, my friend.

[BowlingForPalestine]

17. You mean the history prior to 1994 (the first suicide bombing)?

Why didn't the occupation end then?

The occupation is not about security. It's about the need for more and more land. If there are people living there, it matters not.

Israel is behaving disgracefuly. Until she can abide by law she will continue to be criticized and rightly so.

[a_random_joel]

23. More land, eh?

If they withdraw to 1967 borders will you be happy then?

That is what I believe to be a good solution.

Too bad it doesn't appease the other side.

[Jim Sagle]

43. Once the Peace Fence is complete, the problem will recede.

[Evil_Dewers]

46. LOL

Yeah, the "problem" will just go away.

Man, you oughta be a comedienne.

[redqueen]

52. It's a 'peace fence'?

Then why are they building it inside Palestinian territory?

I know if I built my fence in my annoying neighbor's yard, that they would probably not feel that that fence encouraged peace. No, quite the opposite, in fact.

But hey, the war machine just keeps chugging along, doesn't it? The MIC is in no danger of ever stopping as long as this kind of anti-peaceful solution is accepted.

[BowlingForPalestine]

56. Well of course.

War is business....and business is good.

[number6]

78. and when Bush rids the world of Evil

go Smirkee Man go ...

[PoundSiO2]

8. What did Israel have to fight with when all the Arabs attacked her?

Have they stopped teaching history in school or is it all revised to paint Israel as the thug? Israel has shown much restraint in light of those that want her destroyed. They still have a lot of leeway with the people that can still tell right from wrong.

[DuctapeFatwa]

10. googling Naqba or Nakba is a great way to find out more about

the history of crimes against humanity in the region.

[PoundSiO2]

13. So are non-biased history books

Long before google we had good resources in school and the library to educate us to the truth. Israel got attacked and fought back bravely.

It sucks that there are those still trying to push her into the sea.

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. Any history book that tells you that the Naqba was an attack on Israel

is about as non-biased as Ovadia Yosef, and would certainly get his stamp of approval.

[a_random_joel]

24. Google works both ways, my friend.

I think you know better than that.

There is blood on all hands over there.

[Gimel]

30. The crimes are many

Near the Israeli-Arab village of Kfar Kana, just north of Nazareth in the lower Galilee, searchers found the body of Oleg Shchaiat this morning. Thus came to a tragic end a week of an intense investigation into the sudden disappearance of the soldier. The police and Shabak surmise that Oleg, 20, was kidnapped by Arabs who murdered him shortly afterwards. Left mostly unsaid is the suspicion that it was Israeli-Arabs who perpetrated the crime.

<clip>

Earlier this morning, Defense Minister Sha'ul Mofaz visited the site of the search. Thousands of people took part in looking for the missing soldier, and the security forces continually asked for more volunteers over the past two days.

<clip>

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=47247


The young woman Rachel Corrie was certainly enlisted in an army (ISM) and the Israeli solders abducted and intentionally murdered deserve no less your respect.




Oleg Shchaiat joins a list of some 20 soldiers who have been abducted and murdered by Palestinian terrorists in the past two decades. The list includes David Bukara, Avi Sasportas, Hadas Kedmi, Ilan Saadon, Nissim Toledano, Aryeh Frankental, Nachshon Wachsman, and others.

[BowlingForPalestine]

19. The history was revised..we can agree.

It was revised by the Israeli settlers and colonials. They said the Arabs attacked first when all of sudden Israel historians are "rediscovering" the wicked past and the injustices that the foundation of the Jewish state rests on.

Hardy har har...the Arabs struck first...that myth has been debunked so many times now you'd think someone would come up with better arguments.

[Jim Sagle]

44. The Arabs DID strike first...and everybody goddamn well knows it.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[BowlingForPalestine]

53. Haw Haw Haw....

You, my friend, are clinging to serious untruths.

[IronLionZion]

21. Israel won those wars

and gained land. Israel is a regional superpower and nobody would dare attack it again. Not with big brother (USA) on its side.

I admire the courage of the Israelis during those invasions but their actions against the Palestinians would not be tolerated anywhere else in the whole damn world. When you oppress a race of people, they will fight back. I would probably do the same.

[Jim Sagle]

41. Not a chance.

[drdon326]

7. And the memorials just keep on coming......

Saint Rachel ...patron saint of terrorist supporters
world-wide.


(oh-oh-oh....he doesnt like rachel...he doesnt bow down to
rachel.....he doesnt kiss rachels terror supporting ass).

[number6]

9. isn't that a little over the top ?

"Saint Rachel ...patron saint of terrorist supporters
world-wide. "

you don't have to like Rachel, just don't be rude please
thats all I ask ....

[drdon326]

12. Why ??

rude, huh??

Gee...sorry to break up your little requiem.

Please dont talk about her participation in a terror-
supporting group or would that be rude??

Please dont talk about the endless murders she contributed
to by protecting tunnels or would that be rude?

Please dont talk about her little snarling face ripping an
american flag in front of a bunch of kids or would that be rude?

Rude bothers you but dead israeli innocents from tunnel protecting
doesnt mount a yawn.

[number6]

18. ah, don't hurt yourself

you might blow a Gasket (calm down)

"Rude bothers you but dead Israeli innocents from tunnel protecting
(terrorist pancakes)doesnt mount a yawn."

(terrorist pancakes) you forgot that part.

Actually dead Palestian and Israeli innocents does bother me.

and your prof of tunnels ??

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. Cha-CHING! Thanks Dr Don! You just gave ISM coupla hundred more $

:party:

[drdon326]

15. Youre not going to shut me up with that non-sense.

I believe that as much as i believe Saint Rachel was a
"peeeeece activist".

[DuctapeFatwa]

16. Shut you up? Never! I believe in free speech, and I'm glad to see you

do your part to continue ISM's work for peace.

Cha-CHING!

[BowlingForPalestine]

20. LOL....

:yourock:

Please, drdon, by all means continue!

Don't let us stop you...


You were saying something about Saint Rachel?

[JohnLocke]

22. I'll send an IDF soldier a pizza. Thanks, Ductape!

Yes, I'm going to support my "racist apartheid" Jewish homeland. :party:

[_Jumper_]

25. "Jewish homeland"

If it is a nation for Jews, what does that make non-Jews living in Israel?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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Flame bait is in the eye of the moderator.

[drdon326]

33. Voting Citizens...

which is a helluva a lot more than jews living in the rest
of the ME....

OR should i say the remaining post-ethnically cleansed jews in
the rest of the ME.

[Name removed]

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[BowlingForPalestine]

58. Ever heard of "Operation Magic Carpet"

That'll tell you what happened to many Jews in the ME.

Can't all be blamed on Arabs no matter how badly you want it to.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

37. it makes them...

non-Jewish citizens of the Jewish homeland of Israel...

which is the same thing that it would make non-Palestinians (assuming there would be any) living in a Palestinian homeland, namely, non-Palestinian citizens of the Palestinian homeland of Palestine...

a nation for Jews does not mean a nation for Jews only and it is not...

is the nation of Palestine going to be a nation for Palestinians only?...

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Evil_Dewers]

39. Hmm. It is like Deja Vu all over again...

Arab schools in Israel are run down. Jewish schools in Israel are not.

Arab Israelis are like poor African Americans and poor Hispanics in the US.

[Cassandra]

59. Perhaps Arab Israelis...

would prefer to live in one of the Arab countries where every class of Arab society lives like kings? Not!

[_Jumper_]

68. That doesn't necessarily mean that Israel treats them equally

Many blacks stayed in apartheid South Africa instead of living in another majority-black country. Why? There was more economic opportunity in relatively wealthy South Africa. Does that mean that they had equality there?

[_Jumper_]

66. There may be a difference

Is there a large Arab middle-class in Israel? Is there a substantial number of wealthy Arabs? Are there Arabs serving as ministers in the federal government? Do the state and other power centers preach that Arabs are equal to Jews? Do Israeli Jews view non-Jews as equals? Is there a large number of Arabs living in surburbs?

I don't know the answers but we should have an honest discussion about whether Israel is an apartheid state or whether it is a state that strives for equality like the US, Canada, UK, France, etc.

[Evil_Dewers]

40. 18% of Israelis are Arabs

But the survey says:

44% of Jewish youth believe that Arab citizens should be deprived of at least some of their rights; 19% favoured depriving Israeli Arabs of rights because, “Arabs endanger the state’s security, and therefore we need to get rid of them.”; and 7% of the youth said “Arabs do not deserve any rights in the Jewish state.”

What a lovely place.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

63. "what a lovely place"...

minorities in any country could provide you an earful of discrimination complaints...have you looked into the banlieues of France lately?...

meanwhile, didn't the Arab mayor of the Israeli Arab town of Uhm el Fahm protest the idea of the town being put under the jurisdiction of the PA instead of Israel?...and wasn't an Arab quoted as saying that hell in Israel is better than heaven under the PA...

[_Jumper_]

73. That isn't saying much

Living in apartheid South Africa was better than living in North Korea. Does that mean North Korea treated all its people equally?

Israel may not treat all its citizens equally but it is a democracy and fairly wealthy which makes it a better place to live than Arab states. However, the issue here is equality. Using your reasoning, blacks in the US are treated equally because they are better off here than in Africa.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

80. no, what it's saying is that...

things being relative, since Israel does not exist in a vacuum, the equality of it's citizens is arguably somewhat comparable to the US or France, and, since Israel, the US, and France do not have blasphemy laws, the equality of their citizens is arguably somewhat better than Pakistan...

edit: spelling

[_Jumper_]

83. Let's see the facts

<things being relative, since Israel does not exist in a vacuum, the equality of it's citizens is arguably somewhat comparable to the US or France>

The US is actually pretty good in this area, compared to other countries. Let's see the facts. Is there a large Arab middle-class in Israel? Is there a substantial number of wealthy Arabs? Are there Arabs serving as ministers in the federal government? Do the state and other power centers preach that Arabs are equal to Jews? Do Israeli Jews view non-Jews as equals? Is there a large number of Arabs living in surburbs?

The poll posted earlier suggest that bigotry in Israel is far greater than bigotry in the US, or even France.

<since Israel, the US, and France do not have blasphemy laws, the equality of their citizens is arguably somewhat better than Pakistan...>

If it is, that isn't saying much but I suspect that the two states created for a particular religious group are similar as far as treatment for minorities is concerned. Think about it.;)

[_Jumper_]

86. Is all this true?

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/counterpunch.htm

<For a state to claim a Democratic form of government, it must accept the equality of all residents within its borders as legitimate citizens regardless of race, ethnicity, creed, religion, political belief, or gender. For a state to claim it is Democratic and reserve the rights of citizenship to a select group negates its claim. It is an oxymoron to limit citizenship rights to Jews alone and call the state Democratic. As Joel Kovel has stated in Tikkun, "a democracy that is only to be for a certain people cannot exist, for the elementary reason that the modern democratic state is defined by its claims of universality." Yet this inherent contradiction exists in Israel. And this brings us from the philosophical phase to the practical one.

Daniel Elazar, reflecting on this conundrum in the postmodern era, notes that this "makes it impossible for the State to distinguish between the entitlements of Jewish citizens and others based upon obligations and performance; i.e., more benefits if one does military service than if one does not."

How does Israel implement the Democracy it claims to possess? First, any Jew from anywhere in the world can come to Israel and receive citizenship by virtue of his/her Jewishness. By contrast, a Muslim or Christian Palestinian living in exile because of the 1948 war cannot claim citizenship even though they were indigenous to the area, nor can their descendents claim citizenship. Second, ninety percent of the land in Israel is held in restrictive covenants, land initially owned by Palestinians for the most part, covenants that bar non-Jews from ownership including the Palestinians who hold a limited version of Israeli citizenship. Third, Israeli citizens who are Muslim or Christian do not share the rights accorded Jews who serve in the military, nor do they receive the benefits extended to those who serve in the military. Non-Jews are taxed differently than Israeli citizens and the neighborhoods in which they live receive less support. As recently as June 12, 2002, Paul Martin writing for the Washington Times noted "Israeli Arabs are trying to strike down a new law reducing family benefits, arguing that it has deliberately been drafted in a way that will affect Arabs more harshly than Jews.">

[_Jumper_]

71. Wow

Thanks for posting that. The 19% and 7% numbers can be found in many nations but the fact that 44% of Israeli Jewish youth don't believe in equal rights is very damning, because younger generations are almost always more tolerant than previous generations. The overall number for Israelis who do not believe in equal rights for all is almost certainly a majority.

[GabysPoppy]

79. You might not want to believe those numbers

[_Jumper_]

65. Response

"a nation for Jews does not mean a nation for Jews only and it is not..."

It fundamentally does in that it says that the land belongs to the Jews. Other groups can live there but they do not share ownership of the land.

"is the nation of Palestine going to be a nation for Palestinians only?..."

It should be a state that is for all who live there and just happens to be a majority-Palestinian state.

The real issue here is equal rights. Ethnicity-based countries are accepted as long as all people are given equal rights (race-based ones are not). South Africa became an international outcast because it did not give equality to part of its population. The question is, does Israel, a state that is for one religious group, give equality to citizens who are not part of the group deemed to be the sole owner of the land?

Do you consider America to be a Christian homeland or white homeland? After all, they are the majority here. Or is America a state that just happens to be majority-white and majority-Christian?

[Name removed]

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[Aussie_Hillbilly]

84. Honest words!

[edzontar]

90. Please explain the pizza reference. This seems very disrespectful

In a thread about a young woman's tragic death.

[meti57b]

32. ding ding ding ding ding .... that's the sound of the DU crap detector.

[BowlingForPalestine]

57. DU keeps track of people defacating patterns?

[JohnLocke]

89. It's true

http://www.pizzaidf.org/

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[lefty_mcduff]

50. Classy post.

The 'anti-Corries' are forever showing their true colors.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[Resistance]

62. notice

that the comments in reaction to Sagle's hate-post are deleted, yet Sagle's hate-post remains.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

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[number6]

67. yes, I noticed ....

:wow: :shrug:

[number6]

69. that post ain't nothing but (you know what)

with flyz buzzin around it in the hot sun
on a humid day .....

[number6]

70. I protest this post its completely uncivil, unprogressive

un-democratic and it smells bad ...

[drdon326]

75. And "weally,weally rude" too, huh??

Please just don't be rude or disgusting to Mr. Sagle
thats all I ask ....

[number6]

77. yes, as a matter of fact, Jims post was "weally,weally rude" too

;)

'Please just don't be rude or disgusting to Mr. Sagle'

wouldn't think of it old chap ....he does have a sense of humor

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

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[Resistance]

74. LOL

good idea

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[meti57b]

35. Rachel Corrie is certainly not like Anne Frank .....

Anne Frank had no control over her destiny; Rachel Corrie could have used a little common sense and easily saved herself to protest another day in a better way.

"They (ISM people) later said that the bulldozer driver could clearly see Corrie as he continued in her path, mortally injuring her."

The ISM people cannot know if the bulldozer driver saw her and in fact, they did not know. More importantly, they did know and we can surmise that Rachel Corrie did see the bulldozer. It would seem that it would make obvious sense to anyone, that the best course of action for someone under those circumstances would be to get out from in from of it and stand in a more inaccessible place.

One might also wonder if the ISM people, at least one of them having more sense than the others, would have alerted her to find a better place to stand.

"As Palestinian gunmen continued their attacks from the remaining structures, and new, longer tunnels were dug to reach buidings farther from the border, the line of razed houses became wider and wider, such that at present, the closest houses to the border are now 200-400 meters from the line, along its entire length."

So, according to this article, the houses were used to hide the ingress/egress of the tunnels and harbor those who used the tunnels.

According to this article, the ISM is having very little effect and Rachel Corrie has had no effect.

[Evil_Dewers]

36. Anybody got a picture of these tunnels?

Nah, why spoil a good story?

[number6]

76. well duh...

"Rachel Corrie is certainly not like Anne Frank ..."

both tragic stories, but very different circumstances.

[Gimel]

82. Well said...

I agree completely. Thanks for responding so well and coherently.

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

85. Lovely story

Pity the tunnels never existed. Made such a good excuse though. I attended an ISM meeting for the first time on the 16th. Thinking of joining, after reading the hate and bigotry here. Keep up the good work!

[GabysPoppy]

88. Good luck with your membership

I would imagine you felt quite comfortable there.

[Name removed]

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[Rhiannon12866]

91. I remember the night this story broke. I just happened to be on DU

Whatever the circumstances of her death, it was very sad and totally unnecessary. There is too much loss of life in this region, already, and it's far from over, especially after the latest targeted killing.;(