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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:00 AM
Original message
Fatah body urges truce; no talk of disarming gunmen
A top decision- making body in Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's Fatah group on Saturday reiterated calls for a cease-fire with Israel but failed to announce major reforms of the group.

The Fatah Revolutionary Council said in a statement after a four-day meeting that it was in favor of a mutual cease-fire.

The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command on Saturday claimed responsibility for the shooting attack Friday night that left an Israeli couple dead.

The attack occurred as Eitan Kukoi, 30, and his wife Rima Novikov, 25, were traveling within Israel proper, on a road on the Green Line border between Israel and the West Bank.

Read more...
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. "No talk of disarming gunmen"
Israel have any talk of disarming their troops?

No, I thought not.

Cheers.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Gee,
You think that the Fatah terrorists are the PA's troops?

You're a bit confused.

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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Nice try at obfuscation, but no banana. n/t
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Arafat's choice
No banana for Arafat either. The Road Map stipulates that the terror groups be dismantled.

Arafat's system of paying his supporters (graft) is coming under fire. The Old Man is being undermined by the Road Map and he knows it. That's why he won't budge to implement it.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. The last hudna
was violated by tha al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (Fatah).

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=3...
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yada Yada Yada
Terrorists must be eradicated. arafat's fatah group must be eradicated. The popular front for the liberation of Palestine must be eradicated. hamas must be eradicated. hezbollah must be eradicated. The Palestinian people must be freed from the clutches of these animals. I never hear the Palestinian people. Do they want these thugs and terrorist speaking for them? Not only are these thugs and terrorists TERRORIZING innocent Israeli's, they are also terrorizing innocent Palestinians. Only when the Palestinians are tired of being manipulated will they rise up and free themselves from the shackles of this horrible oppression. Because history has shown Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and the other Middle Eastern countries won't stand up to these thugs and terrorists for the oppressed Palestinian people. No, they fund these horrible terrorist groups.
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mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Clear the Occupied Territories, tear down the Wall of Shame,
disarm the Israeli Occupation Force... then let's talk.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Kill all the Palestinian terrorists
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 11:54 AM by Muddleoftheroad
Then let's talk.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. That is just the point, dude.
You can't kill all the terrorists. You just keep making more. That's why you can't have a war on terrorism. You might as well have a war on jealousy. Some day, you gotta sit down with your enemy and *negotiate*.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. No, you don't have to negotiate
Until they stop their war against civilians. While you can't kill all terrorists on your own, you can with help. If the Palestinians won't help, then they won't get a state either. And, frankly, if they don't help fight terror, they don't deserve one.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. So what's keeping them?
People are dying....
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Huh?
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Pretty simple actually...
Edited on Mon Mar-01-04 01:10 AM by lefty_mcduff
*If* negotiation is not, as you claim, part of the 'solution', and killing all the terrorists is *possible* (and it's pretty apparent that this is the solution that the IDF have been pursuing), then what is the delay? What's taking so long? If there are a 'finite' number of terrorists (the only scenario under which 'killing all the terrorists works) how many are left? It's not like the IDF doesn't have all the latest and greatest killing tools, as well as unlimited US financial backing, against a 'finite' number of poorly armed terrorists (by your logic).

Why does it appear to the misguided (folks like myself) that this macho bullshit policy is not working, while in the interim, innocent people are dying. Is it because we're stupid?

You may wish to read up on the Northern Ireland conflict, where after years of similar macho chest-beating the Brits finally realized that you have to sit down and negotiate with your enemy. You cannot turn people involved in a *civilian* uprising into *friendly opponents* by trying to kill them all. That gets innocents killed and *extends* the conflict. But unfortunately, this is often policy when people in power have more to gain by never-ending turmoil, than they do with peace.

In Northern Ireland the conflict was becoming a political liability, rather than an exercise in 'see how tough we are on terrorists, please re-elect us'. I predict that someday the Israelis and the Palestinians will come to the same inescapable conclusion. Until then, many more innocents are destined to die.



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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Possible, not easy
There are two ways to accomplish killing the terrorists and only one viable or acceptable way, that's with Palestinian help. Since that is not forthcoming, then the goal is simply to kill as many as possible and limit their effectiveness.

In the meantime, destruction of the PA is also a goal that I support. If the Palestinian areas have to devolve into chaos so that a new government might form WITHOUT Arafat, again that is their choice.

While similar to NI in some ways, it is far different. Geography and history make this a far worse problem for both sides.


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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Right on
Like in treating a disease, you treat the symptom (terrorism) and also eradicate it's source (the money evil that Arafat dispenses).

In the meantime, you have to reduce the fever, administering antibiotics (killing terrorists), while the source of the disease is found and remedied.

Arafat found that he could wave two fingers, smile and say "peace" and receive a Nobel Prize (millions of dollars). He continued that game, convincing the EU a Japan and other countries to donate to the PA, only to run a corrupt government of graft and payoff for continued terrorism.

Long past time to wake up folks. The cost in lives has been terrible.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I guess I (and most of the world) would like to avoid this...
"If Palestinian areas have to devolve into chaos".

But you make my point.- "the goal is simply to kill as many as possible and limit their effectiveness'.

Even you admit you can't kill 'em all (at least without the *co-operation* of the people you want to treat like an enemy. That proviso is laughable). That means terror is destined to continue. That means innocents on both sides will continue to die as the IDF blunder around, and the Pals retaliate, then the IDF retaliates in turn...

The conflict in NI is quite similar to the I/P conflict. The Brits in N/I were a lot more successful with the civillian population because, among other tactics, they avoided 'collective punishment'', This helps keep the 'active' conflict isolated to the true radials. OTHO - The IDF actions practically guarantee that radicalsim will spread to the more moderate sections of the Pal society.

You kill the terrorist that lives down the street, I can still go about my business. You kill my son, who is *not* a terrorist - then I want revenge. Not sure why you don't understand this rather rudimentary concept.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. The Palestinians are choosing it
If they didn't want chaos, they would do something about it.

I don't want to treat all Palestinians as the enemy, but most keep acting like it and giving Israel no choice in the matter.

Terror is destined to continue as long as the Palestinians wish it. There is nothing Israel can do to stop it 100% other than surrender or annihilate all Palestinians -- both are anathema.

One way in which the NI conflict IS similar is that the Irish didn't get everything they wanted in peace, but they still settled. I wish the Palestinians would understand that.



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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Agreed.
"the Irish didn't get everything they wanted in peace, but they still settled.". The Brits didn't get everything they wanted either and (while we're using hte analogy) the Israelis should understand that as well.

That is becomming a common refrain in our discussions.

I think *both* sides need to change their approach, while your arguments generally involve the Palestinians being killed, turning on their *security forces*, giving up *their land*, having their property destroyed, and accepting *their* dead innocents as 'collateral damage' while waiting for the Israelis to decide that it's an appropriate time to negotiate (but only after the Pals install leaders that Israel is *okay* with).

It may be your position, but it is not going to happen.

Do you think that hard-core factions in Israel want peace?
As with Bush's philosophy, the 'war on terrah' is a nice stick to keep the the sheeple preoccupied with.

Seems to be the current RW government tactic - helps keep 'em in power.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. It's the pay off.
Getting down to the misuse of donated money is getting rid of terror. Money is indeed the root of evil.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Actually.
It is the use,misuse and subsequent rising up against *power*. Terrorism is asymmetrical warfare.

Relatively little money is required for a *civillian* uprising/terrorist campaign. Something the IDF knows nothing about with their $US supplied budget and nifty weaponry.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. The bomb belts
cost little, but the $25,000 to each family adds up. Funding for terror includes propaganda and overseas financing, as well as graft, and payoffs to keep loyalties. That's what is being uncovered more and more, as the inner workings of the PA are being made public.

Call in Arafat's machinery. It's not what is paid to each rock thrower.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Get with GWB he's going to rid the world of evil ;-)
good luck :thumbsup: :evilgrin:
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packerssuck Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. They had their many chances but Arafat walked away from
noegotiation table with Clinton and Barak and started second intifada. Palestinian leadership is nothing but a mafia.
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Comadreja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Sharon started intifada
The world knows, even if you don't, that Sharon's provocative occupation of the Dome of the Rock started the cycle of violence that brought this butcher to power and keeps him in power. Violence is Sharon's way, and he is not interested in peace for this reason.

"Those in possession of absolute power can not only prophesy and make their prophecies come true, but they can also lie and make their lies come true": Eric Hoffer


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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. What propaganda
Actually, the Intifada had already started, pro-Palestinian posters just like to blame that on him.

And, of course, what he did was entirely legit. As both a Jew and an Israeli, he was entitled to visit the holy site. It's only the radical anti-Semitic attitudes of the Muslims who considered that incitement and don't like Jews daring to go to their own holy sites. I guess that's why so many Jewish holy sites get desecrated by Arabs and Muslims.
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Comadreja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Only total "disarmament" will do
After taking away the Palestinian's personal weapons, the heroic Occupation Forces will be able to lower the cost of assasinating the rest of the population. Snipers won't have to worry about return fire. Of course, Palestinians will still be attacking the brave troops with rocks, and so peace talks cannot be even thought of until this terrorism stops and the Arabs get rid of all rocks. Either that or submit to amputation of their arms up to the elbow. Maybe then we can talk about peace.

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packerssuck Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I guess that Clinton and all his staff lied when they said that
Arafat refused to agree. Arafat just used Sharon's visit to Temple mount as excuse.
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