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Kremer Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 09:53 AM
Original message
What is it with this unanimous support of the "wall" in Israel by our so
called leaders! I'm watching 1 min speeches in the House on CSPAN right now and 1 repug and 2 dem's gave unwavering support for Israel's wall. Jerrold Nadler D-NY supported it and said we should "applaud" Israel. WTF!!! I'll applaud them w/ my middle finger!!! A woman dem (forgot her name) even said the reason for the wall is all the Palestinians fault for not controlling the suicide bombers and that the Palestinians should stop what they are doing in the courts in The Hague! WTF again! Hello? Anybody home in the House? The Palestinians are in court to get their rightfully agreed upon land back, that Sharon took by building the wall way across the green line in some places! IT'S THEIR LAND, WALL OR NO WALL! Secondly, to think that a large wall will stop all suicide bombers is ludicrous! Thirdly, what if the Palestinian leadership strongly condemned, which they have, Hezbollah, Hamas and the other suicide bombers and did their damnedest to stop the bombers and suicide bombings still continued? What then? Build a wall around every bus and cafe? As usual the group who has virtually nothing and are treated like dogs (not quite like dogs b/c dogs have some rights) are the ones who are criticized and told to fix this problem! Geez whatever! Shameless! If we must applaud something, applaud the Palestinians effort to get their land back in The Hague. Israel didn't even send lawyers b/c they don't recognize the courts in The Hague. Nice.
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mmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. I would agree with one poster here: Pure Abomination
They should be getting busy clearing out those illegal settlements
and shutting down the Israeli army of thugs. Then they should call in the UN to keep things clean. This ain't rocket science, now is it?
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. The UN has a decidedly anti-Israel bias
I wouldn't EVER trust UN troops to guard Israel. The IDF does a good job of it and has more experience than any other troops.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. L*kud Supporters refuse to be held to a universal consensus ..
Edited on Thu Feb-26-04 10:10 AM by Trajan
Hence their hatred of universal consensus bodies ..

Edit: changed "Israel" to "L*kud", because such sentiments are NOT universally held by all Israelis or Jews ...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Universal consensus bodies
Are run by an overwhelming coalition of Arab nations, Muslim nations, oil-dependent nations and nations like much of Europe with an anti-Semitic history longer than the Great Wall of China.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. Its a big world out there ....
Refusing to break bread with your neighbors can lead to distrust and confusion ...

BTW ? ... Disagreement does not constitute hatred ... Sometimes the terms get 'confused' (IE Equivocated) here in DU ...

Perhaps the insistence of being 'victimized' by history closes the door to contemporary enlightment ? ...

I would be the FIRST to admit: ... Christian Europe, from Innocent and Luther through Rindfliesch to Hitler, mistreated and massacred the Jews, and will forever be stained by this evil .... Yet even now: there is no widespread Anti-semitic sentiment that exists there or in ANY 'christian' nation: no more than typical ethnic or racial division between other groups (which is what we as citizens of the enlightenment should be trying to overcome, NOT to exacerbate it) ...

The enmity between Israel and Islam is mutual .... You cannot tell me that Arabs hate Jews more than Jews hate Arabs ... If there is on place people in the ME are equal: its in the hatreds ....

Furthermore: ... Though a key seat or two is held (temporarily) by muslims, the bulk of the UN is NOT 'Muslim' ... I think the point is that NO UN action, if it treats arab and jew EQUALLY, will be viewed favorably by right wing Jews ....

You cannot deny the ingrained anti-muslim slant present in the 'jewish national pysche', both consciously and subconsciously held by a large swath of Jewish humanity: You cannot deny that such deep seated hatred of Muslims by Jews ALSO inflames Muslims to distrust Jews and their motives ....

Yet such distrust: even if deserved; is termed "Anti-semitism" .. as if to deny their legitimacy ...

Can ANYONE disagree with jews and NOT be anti-semitic ? ...

This charge is a radical red herring, intended to obfuscate honest grievences in a flash of emotional appeal ...
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Breaking bread
Israel has done more than its part to break bread with its neighbors. It made peace with enemies in Jordan and Egypt. It has numerous agreements with Turkey, another Muslim nation. But there is only so far Israel can go to accommodate its enemies.

No, disagreement doesn't constitute hatred. It depends on how the disagreement is worded or what it is about.

Israel and Jews don't insist on "being 'victimized' by history," they were. It happened.

Of course there is widespread anti-Semitism in Europe. Hell, I think it was 19% of Germans polled believe a recent book that Mosad was involved in 9-11. Gotta love those Germans...

The emnity between Israel and Islam is, in the case of Israel, survival. If one group attacks you for 55 years (longer if you go back before Israel was founded), then you certainly develop your own hatreds.

I didn't say the bulk of the UN is Muslim. I pointed out that a bloc of Muslim, Arab, oil-needy and anti-Semitic nations easily controls all world bodies.

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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. what 's good for the goose...
Edited on Thu Feb-26-04 11:45 AM by cantwealljustgetalon
"You cannot deny the ingrained anti-Jewish slant present in the 'Muslim national pysche', both consciously and subconsciously held by a large swath of Muslim humanity: You cannot deny that such deep seated hatred of Jews by Muslims ALSO inflames Jews to distrust Muslims and their motives .... "

"You cannot deny the ingrained anti-Jewish slant present in the 'Christian national pysche', both consciously and subconsciously held by a large swath of Christian humanity: You cannot deny that such deep seated hatred of Jews by Christians ALSO inflames Jews to distrust Christians and their motives .... "


on edit - what effect does supercessionism and replacement theology have on the psyche?...
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. The troops are needed to protect BOTH sides
IDF is certainly needed within the Israeli perimeter as Palestinian police are needed within their perimeter.

But I believe that if the Palestinians believed they were safe (and fed) the violence would diminish.

The IDF cannot protect the Palestinians.

IF UN troops were used then there would be fewer confrontations and the IDF could concentrate on INTERNAL security to protect their citizens.

As it stands now, the IDF are engaging in offensive actions that often exacerbate the tensions in a tit for tat bloodletting that will never end.

The suicide bombers and Palestinian militants engaging in civilian attacks do the same.

If Israel would accept such intervention on a targeted and limited basis (Especially on the perimeter of the occupied teritories) and there was an international effort to bring peace and stop the violence on both sides, then there might be some hope for both peoples.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. The UN would NOT stop the terrorists
It would merely limit Israel's actions against their bases. That is unacceptable. If the Palestinians want to go after the terrorists, they should do it themselves.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. So much to point out to you, so little time
Fortunate, the Democratic leadership recognizes Israel's need to protect its citizens.

Now to correct a few things:

* It's not a wall. It's mostly a fence with a few stretches of wall in heavily populated areas. I think, at last count it was 5% wall and 95% fence.
* The reason for the Peace Fence is indeed the fact that the Palestinians do nothing whatsoever to curtail terror. Since they don't, Israel must.
* The land in question remains disputed and will remain so until a permanent peace is settled. In the meantime, the land in question is under Israeli authority. Much like building a road, a hospital or any other public works project, Israel has the right to take land for the public good.
* No the wall will not stop all suicide bombers. It certainly will limit their access and improve internal security. Just because it isn't 100% perfect, Israel should abandon the idea? That's ludicrous.
* The Palestinian leadership supports, endorses, backs, funds and organizes terror. The last two big bombings have been from Arafat's own groups, not Hamas or Islamic Jihad.


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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Funny thing about walls ...
They keep people out at the same time they hem them in ...

Cant get around that ...

WHO is more free ? .. those penned IN ? .. or those left out ? ...
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. I Somehow Think That --
Unlike the Berlin Wall or the Warsaw ghetto wall, the people who are, as you say, "penned in" will continue to enjoy the right to travel to places outside the wall.

I do not believe that this security perimeter is designed (as was the case with the Berlin Wall and the Warsaw ghetto wall) to keep people from traveling outside the perimeter. I would guess that flights into an out of Ben Gurion Airport will still continue.

I don't think your premise about this wall, at least as it relates to keeping people penned in, is at all valid.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. To be free
You first have to be alive. Israel is building the Peace Fence to ensure that its citizens meet that first requirement.
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ugarte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. The problem is not the wall, it's the land grab
Israel has the right to build a wall on its own land, but this is not what's happening. The whole terrorism issue is just being used as a pretext to push forward Israel's borders.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. What Was The Reason, Then
that the Palestinian Authority rejected the peace plan that President Clinton worked out?

I thought that Israel, in that plan, renounced all territory in exchange for a cease fire.

???
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Was this the plan ..
Where Richard Perle interfered with the negotiations ? ...

Hmmmm ? .... Now Richard Perle directs US Policy in the ME, and has helped embroil the region in MORE disarray and bloodshed ... NOT less ....
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. I Don 't Recal if
Perle was involved at all in the negotiations. I do recall that Israel was prepared to make some truly remarkable concessions -- basically, land for peace -- even, perhaps, support for a Palestinian nation.

And I recall that the Palestinians did not accept it.

I have never understood why they rejected it. I think it might have had siomething to do with the fact that it may have required the Palestinians to accept Israel's right to exist. I know that is really difficult for some Palestinians to do.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Remember that guy Barak
He made an offer that (I won't use percentages because they are disputed) offered the Palestinians most of what they want. It was rejected and Arafat delivered more terror.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. That's What I Recall
That is basically my own recollection.

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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. yeah...for me its not the wall/fence, which sounds like a good idea
....its that they are not really following that old "green line" cease-fire border. It follows it more or less, but then dips in to take in some of those settlements (which should be removed, IMO).

Otherwise, though, I think its a good idea given that the Israelis are really taking some hits from those suicide bombers, so this is a good way to control whos getting in and out of the country from the West Bank,



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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
5. You are new here ...
Expect a torrent of vitriol from the DU Contingent of L*kud supporters ...

Nadler is, I believe, Jewish, and hence is more favorable to Sharon's wall based on his own feelings of insecurity for his land ... This is no surprise ...

I find it curious that Democrats could support a right wing government's policies ... but the I/P issue twists the normal context of Right vs Left into something more vague and confusing ...

Imagine that: .. humans being confused ....

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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. Well come on...
Israel has to protect her night clubs from the lower class....that wall reminds some people of another wall, in Poland.

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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. Lower class?
How about just the bombing class? You know, those Palestinians who like to blow up innocent civilians?
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
11. Unconditional support for whatever the Israeli government wants to do

is US policy, and the policy of both Democratic and Republican parties.

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
39. If so
Yeah, why haven't they killed Arafat yet? Why have they used restraint and tried to come to terms with a former terrorist? I wonder. It doesn't make any sense at all.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. This topic is gonna get moved but my 2c : Both sides are to blame
Edited on Thu Feb-26-04 10:14 AM by Kamika
1st off you can really not blame the israeli goverment from trying to protect their people, it's the responsibility of all goverments to do so.

But secondly as I'm sure alot of people agree, is that the Israeli state should maybe consider just why people who are NOT islamic fundies.. I'm talking educated lawyers etc.. just why they feel so desperate so they are willing to blow people up?

I see alot of people saying its "ok" for the israeli military to blow up civilians because they aim for terrorists.. well tell that to the sister who lost her brother, or the mother who lost her daughter.

"sorry they died but we didn't mean it. Ciao"

Both sides are guilty, it's wrong to lay all the blame on either side.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Civilians and terrorists
The Palestinian terrorists do their best to maximize civilian casualties. The IDF does its best to maximize TERRORIST casualties.

The two are as a like as an apple and the planet Venus.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. A Brand New Wailing Wall
is what this will come to be.

:cry:
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Hammie Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
20. Israel has an obligation to defend its citizens
Frankly, the Palestinian are getting off easy. If it weren't for Israel's regard for world opinion (mostly US opinion) you wouldn't be reading about Palestinians in the newspaper you would be reading about them in the history books.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is at war with the Palestinians. Wars don't end until someone wins. There is very little chance that the Palestinians will win. The only question is when will Israel win and how. If they can win by building a big fence to keep hostile forces out of their territory, then God bless them.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Can you imagine how other nations would handle this?
Scorched Earth most likely.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. Give a historical example ....
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. One?
The U.S. -- invades Mexico over Texas, attacks Afghanistan, attacks Iraq, attacks Libya, etc.
Turkey -- massive assault on the Kurds
Jordan -- massive assault on the Palestinians
Russia -- massive assault on Chechnya
Britain -- massive assault on almost everybody
France -- Check out their Algierian behavior. Wow.

Now, for a second, imagine that the Mexicans coming to America including a sizeable number of bombers who wished to create Azatlan in the Southwest. How long would that stay peaceful? How long would the border be open? How long before Mexicans died by the thousands?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. Uh, Yeah. Occupations don't end like wars do
Check out one of their methods, used just yesterday

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/8...

they are robbing banks, and covering the security cameras with black plastic before herding employees and getting the combination to the vault. Plain and simple robbery
And DO NOT say that makes me anti-semitic, as my husband is Jewish
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. It just makes you wrong
They were no more robbing the bank than the police do when they seize assets of a criminal company.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I've never seen the police cover surveillance cameras with black
plastic......have you??? This was robbery, and even the US disapproved.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
26. Armageddon Lobby is why
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
30. It's not really a "wall" They're making fenced-in bantustans.
Edited on Thu Feb-26-04 10:35 AM by Cat Atomic


That's nothing like the Berlin Wall. It's got more in common with South African apartheid-era bantustans.
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YNGW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
33. You had to figure it would come to this.
The Israeli government can only take having their citizens killed for so long before they take measures to defend themselves. Maybe this will stop the violence. There are certainly enough rich Arab countries in the region to help the Palestinians economically, or will they ignore them for political purposes?
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. yeah
Israel has been stealing land for so long, they may as well steal some more.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
41. Locking
Per I/P guidelines - not based on a recent news or op-ed article.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground
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