The hate that shames us [Guardian column] Pt. 2

[MikeGalos]

The hate that shames us
Julie Burchill
Saturday December 6, 2003
The Guardian

In 1967, Martin Luther King Jr published his Letter To An Anti-Zionist Friend: "Anti-Zionism is inherently anti-semitic, and ever will be. What is anti-Zionism? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the globe. It is discrimination against Jews... because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-semitism." MLK - what a mensch! A saint in the street; a superman in the sack. And this being so, no reason at all to be envious of the Jews.

As I said last week, I have come to believe - looking at how anti-semitism is the only form of racial prejudice that unites both left and right, from the KKK to the PLO - that loathing the Jews is more about the personal than the political, despite the phoney, anticolonial cant of the anti-Zionists. For instance, I've noticed that some people use the Jews as a sort of warped magic mirror, accusing them of things that they themselves are obviously guilty of. When the Old Etonian Tam Dalyell claimed that there was in this country a Jewish "cabal" of politicians wielding disproportionate influence, did he not consider the fact that, since time immemorial, the country has been run by overprivileged public schoolboys such as himself, allowing barely a look-in for equally (or, perish the thought, more!) electable and capable citizens of working-class origin?

Similarly, George Orwell could write in 1940 that he had nothing against Hitler, and follow up this gem with the declaration that European Jews would prefer the Nazi social system to that of Britain, "if it were not that they happen to persecute them". This would be the same Orwell (another Etonian!) who was revealed as spying and squealing on his leftwing friends for the CIA in the immediate postwar period, would it? Mmm, he'd have been quite at home in Nazi Germany himself, then.

<deleted for fair use compliance>

<Full text at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1100094,00.html >

[newyorican]

1. The MLK letter is a well-known hoax...

which doesn't do anything for the credibilty of the articles author.

[bemildred]

2. And also a dupe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=37328

[MikeGalos]

3. Nope

The MLK letter is well known and not a hoax. Perhaps your confused with some other letter.

MLK was well known as a friend to both the Jews and to Israel. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[bluesoul]

4. You mean this

Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America
> www.camera.org
>
> Shalom CAMERA E-Mail Team:
>> I am sorry to inform you that the "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend"
allegedly written by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., is
> apparently a hoax.

source: http://shamash.org/listarchives/join-talk/020511

[MikeGalos]

5. EIther way

Even the letter claiming it isn't real says:

"Since the message of the letter (Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism) was one Martin Luther King, Jr. had indeed articulated, we can understand why the King family and the ADL did not feel the need to verify the "Letter to an anti-Zionist friend."

So, while there is some question of whether the letter was ever published, there is no evidence that the letter itself is fraudulant and most importantly, even Dr. King's family agrees that it is precisely what he would have said.

[bluesoul]

6. Had mr King been alive today I would wonder

what he would have to say about the situation that Palestinians are in and what is happening to their land... And the point still is, the letter is a HOAX. What his family might say or think is another matter. I can also guess what he might think were he alive...

[Lurking Dem]

7. A hoax, by definition,

is "Something that has been established or accepted by fraudulent means."

Since there is "no evidence that the letter itself is fraudulent", then it may be questionable, but it is de facto not a hoax until it is proven to be one.

[RPG-7]

8. the letter doesn't exist

It's not a forgery or something, it's just something the guy that someone made up and said was printed in the Saturday Evening Post and it wasn't.

[bemildred]

9. That is the point.

There are actually two common cites for it, and
neither actually exists. You cannot prove the negative that
such a letter does not exist, but you can prove that the
given cites do not exist, and CAMERA went to the trouble to
check with the MLK repository and came up negative there too
for anything of the stated nature.

It was Saturday Review.

This does not mean MLK was unfriendly to Jews or Israel, he had
good reason to view them kindly.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. I think we all know how he would react to terrorists

[MikeGalos]

13. <sigh> Would that it were so.

Unfortunately, that isn't a safe statement. I've actually seen people here claim that they are CERTAIN that Dr. King, despite being a man so totally dedicated to peace, would back the PA in all their actions including intentionally murdering innocent civilians to score PR points.

It's so sad to think that people have learned so little from Dr. King's life these past few decades.

[newyorican]

14. I'd like to see that...

"I've actually seen people here claim that they are CERTAIN that Dr. King, despite being a man so totally dedicated to peace, would back the PA in all their actions including intentionally murdering innocent civilians to score PR points."

I must have missed that one. Since you claim to have seen it *here* (meaning DU) by *people* (plural), it should be easily verifiable.

[MikeGalos]

16. Feel free

check the archives. I think the discussion was back in late Spring but I may be off a few months either way.

[newyorican]

17. Unsubstantiated claim

equals bullshit. Thanks for playing.

[MikeGalos]

18. Nah

I just don't feel like playing unpaid researcher for every request from everybody who is too lazy to do their own research.

If it were documenting something about I/P itself, usually I would. For a meta-conversation about who said what when on a message board, frankly I don't really care enough.

If you do. Look it up.

If you don't then don't accuse people of lying.

Either way, the onus is on you.

[bluesoul]

19. No

you're the one accusing people Mike. Put up or....

[MikeGalos]

21. No

Please name a person I've accused.

Now, care to comment on the article?

Nah, that'd require thought and introspection.

[bluesoul]

23. You said

you've seen people here saying something and then you didn't even bother to provide the quote itself and then you continue with personal ridicule (Nah, that'd require thought and introspection) Way to go Mike...

[Aidoneus]

20. Interesting tactic

Make up some crazy bullshit, then rattle off silly excuses to weasel out of proof when called on it.

[newyorican]

22. more garbage...

contradictory garbage at that:

MikeGalos (1000+ posts) Sat Dec-20-03 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #12

13. <sigh> Would that it were so.


Unfortunately, that isn't a safe statement. I've actually seen people here claim that they are CERTAIN that Dr. King, despite being a man so totally dedicated to peace, would back the PA in all their actions including intentionally murdering innocent civilians to score PR points.

It's so sad to think that people have learned so little from Dr. King's life these past few decades.

So sad (sniff).

For a meta-conversation about who said what when on a message board, frankly I don't really care enough.

Um, so when you say "So sad", you mean "...don't really care enough." In other words, more made-up, crazy bullshit. But very entertaining, you should consider taking the show on the road.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. People here claimed that???

I've actually seen people here claim that they are CERTAIN that Dr. King, despite being a man so totally dedicated to peace, would back the PA in all their actions including intentionally murdering innocent civilians to score PR points.

A link to those claims wouldn't go astray right about now...


Violet...

[newyorican]

24. Given the responses on this "article"...

that's starts off by perpetuating a hoax that abuses the memory of MLK...this thread should be renamed, "The Bullshit that should Shame Us".

[MikeGalos]

27. Gee

a letter that nobody's sure is or isn't real but that MLK's own family and coworkers say agrees totally with what he thought is "abusing the memory of MLK"?

Gee, posting what he thought is abuse.

Welcome back to newspeak.

[newyorican]

29. Sir, have you no shame?

</rhetorical>

[MikeGalos]

30. Let's see

I'm the one saying that MLK said what MLK's family says he said.

That's a matter for pride. And I'm proud to do so.

[bluesoul]

31. The letter is a HOAX

all you have is what some say what the family is supposed to be thinking what he would say. Not MLK's actual words! Big difference Mike...

[Blitz]

10. With or without the MLK letter

An excellent article. Nice to see somebody speaking up.

[MikeGalos]

11. I agree

it's nice to see a Guardian columnist willing to admit the emperor's clothing is threadbare to say the least.

[bemildred]

25. I don't think this woman could pour piss from a boot

with instructions on the heel.

The letter in the first paragraph is a hoax.

She seems to think the PLO is "the left".

She misquotes Orwell, who actually followed the statement
that he had nothing personal against Hitler with the statement
that he would immediately shoot him if he could get close enough,
same paragraph.

But why go on. She is an arrant fool who distorts for rhetorical
effect.

Here is Orwell on Hitler:

Hitler is a criminal lunatic, and Hitler has an army of millions of men, aeroplanes in thousands, tanks in tens of thousands. For his sake a great nation has been willing to
overwork itself for six years and then to fight for two years more, whereas for the commonsense, essentially hedonistic world-view which Mr Wells puts forward,
hardly a human creature is willing to shed a pint of blood. Before you can even talk of world reconstruction, or even of peace, you have got to eliminate Hitler, which
means bringing into being a dynamic not necessarily the same as that of the Nazis, but probably quite as unacceptable to "enlightened" and hedonistic people.

---

The people who say that Hitler is Antichrist, or alternatively, the Holy Ghost, are nearer an understanding of the truth than the intellectuals who for ten dreadful years
have kept it up that he is merely a figure out of comic opera, not worth taking seriously. All that this idea really reflects is the sheltered conditions of English life. The
Left Book Club was at bottom a product of Scotland Yard, just as the Peace Pledge Union is a product of the navy. One development of the last ten years has been the
appearance of the "political book", a sort of enlarged pamphlet combining history with political criticism, as an important literary form. But the best writers in this
line-Trotsky, Rauschning, Rosenberg, Silone, Borkenau, Koestler and others-have none of them been Englishmen, and nearly all of them have been renegades from one
or other extremist party, who have seen totalitarianism at close quarters and known the meaning of exile and persecution. Only in the English-speaking countries was it
fashionable to believe, right up to the outbreak of war, that Hitler was an unimportant lunatic and the German tanks made of cardboard. Mr Wells, it will be seen from
the quotations I have given above, believes something of the kind still. I do not suppose that either the bombs or the German campaign in Greece have altered his
opinion. A lifelong habit of thought stands between him and an understanding of Hitler's power.

http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/CriticalEssays/wells_hitler.html

Here is Orwell on anti-semitism:

THERE are two journalistic activities that will always bring you a come-back. One is to attack the Catholics and the other is to defend the Jews. Recently I happened
to review some books dealing with the persecution of the Jews in medieval and modern Europe. The review brought me the usual wad of antisemitic letters, which left
me thinking for the thousandth time that this problem is being evaded even by the people whom it concerns most directly.

The disquieting thing about these letters is that they do not all come from lunatics. I don't greatly mind the person who believes in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion,
nor even the discharged army officer who has been shabbily treated by the Government and is infuriated by seeing `aliens' given all the best jobs. But in addition to
these types there is the small business or professional man who is firmly convinced that the Jews bring all their troubles upon themselves by underhand business
methods and complete lack of public spirit. These people write reasonable, well-balanced letters, disclaim any belief in racialism, and back up everything they say with
copious instances. They admit the existence of `good Jews', and usually declare (Hitler says just the same in Mein Kampf) that they did not start out with any
anti-Jewish feeling but have been forced into it simply by observing how Jews behave.

http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/O/OrwellGeorge/essay/tribune/AsIPlease19440211.html

I would give you the review of a translation of mein kampf that
she refers to, but I cannot find it except in my copy of the collected
essays.

[bluesoul]

26. Bemildred

:yourock: Pass it on...

[MikeGalos]

28. Amazing how much research

people will put in to avoid discussing the actual subject of the article...

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyorican]

33. Amazing how much bullshit

people will make up to reinforce a flaccid argument. They have pills that can fix that and add inches to your...er...argument, just check your spam-e-mail.

Of course, you can simply provide proof of your assertion:

MikeGalos quote: I've actually seen people here claim that they are CERTAIN that Dr. King, despite being a man so totally dedicated to peace, would back the PA in all their actions including intentionally murdering innocent civilians to score PR points.

Here's the archive page starting Feb03: http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID30&mm=5680&archive=yes

I'll even make it easy on you. Find a quote of any 2 posters that states MLK would support intentionally murdering innocent civilians. Forget the nonsense about, "...would back the PA in all their actions..." and "...to score PR points.".

[The Magistrate]

34. Mr. Mildred, My Friend

Is quite accurate in his assesment of Mr. Orwell. The writer of this column has slandered that gentleman egregiously.

[bemildred]

35. Thank you Sir.

Had she left Orwell out of it, I would have let it go.
Had they let this tripe sink sedately into the archives,
I would have let it go. It was just a bit much.