Fewer Palestinians back suicide bombings - poll

[Scurrilous]

http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp?type=worldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4002705

<snip>

"RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian public support for suicide bomb attacks in Israel has dropped to its lowest level in three years of Middle East conflict, according to a poll released on Tuesday.

Palestinian President Yasser Arafat's rating also declined but he remained more than twice as popular as any other public figure, the survey by the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) found.

In a report on its web site, it said 48 percent favoured suicide bombings -- less than half for the first time since March 2000, six months before an uprising against Israel erupted as U.S.-brokered peace talks broke down.

Fifty-nine percent polled by the independent institute in October backed suicide attacks, staying within a range of slightly over half dating back to the start of the bloodshed."

[bluesoul]

1. Imagine if there was no wall

no occupation, no house demolishment and illegal settlers. The support for any suicide attacks would vanish!

[newyorican]

2. Good trend and all, but...

I wish I didn't have to squint so hard to see the silver lining.

[drdon326]

3. Dont bother squinting...

there is no silver lining.

[newyorican]

6. You may have a habit...

of not looking at things in a multifaceted or deliberative manner, but it's nothing to be proud of. Nor is encouraging others to don blinders.

[Gimel]

4. The Peace Fence

Is building peace. More fence, less suicide bombers, less support for suicide bombers. Keep on that trend, please.

[number6]

5. a poor tactic agianst the racist apartheid wall

in the future they may find a more effective tactic agianst
oppression, occupation, and land theft ...

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Can you point out...

Where it even mentioned the fence as being any sort of factor at all in the drop in support for suicide-bombings? I've read it and nowhere was it mentioned...


Violet...

[cantwealljustgetalong]

9. I don't doubt there will be an interesting correlation...

between the building of the peace fence and a change in attitude of the Palestinian leadership finding themselves with their backs against the wall (pardon the pun)...

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Uh, the claim made was that there IS a correlation...

And I'd like to see some evidence of that correlation, because there's none at all in the article....

Here's the summary from the website that conducted the poll, for anyone who's interested in reading what the Palestinians polled actually think...

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2003/p10epressrelease.html


Violet...

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. What was post #4 then?

No matter how it's read, it's very much implying a correlation between the fence and the reduction in support for suicide bombings. Can you explain how it's not?

And thanks for being concerned and all about the welfare of my glasses, but I don't have them as my eyesight's excellent...


Violet...

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GabysPoppy]

24. Don't bet on getting an answer

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Not in this thread, she won't...

And not until she answers the question I asked her in this thread. Do you have a problem with that?


Violet...

[cantwealljustgetalong]

42. that would be my preference...

better to be spared the spin-dried verbosity...:hurts:

[drdon326]

25. Violet...

you said that??

uhhh..what proof do you have?

[Violet_Crumble]

31. don...

I prefaced my comment with the words 'I think'. If you really want to discuss what I said in another thread, feel free to post in the other thread and discuss it. But I'm off to a graduation ceremony in a little while so you'll have to wait till later for me to answer you...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

26. You decline answering a question about the topic of this thread?

Why? Someone made a correlation between the fence and a drop in support of suicide-bombings. You claim they didn't. So if you were interested in people knowing why they didn't, it would seem to me that the best thing to do would be explain how...

I'm curious, but why are you posting links to other threads and demanding I supply answers to them when you refuse to answer questions about this thread? Is there some reason you can't go and post in a thread when yr talking about something in that particular thread?


Violet...

[drdon326]

29. Hey Violet...

Why did you say that:

"I think the Church of the Nativity was desecrated by the IDF on orders of the GOI."...

i really would like to know.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. What has this got to do with this thread??

btw, go and read the post in question. I explained why...

Violet..

[cantwealljustgetalong]

44. cause...

she don't need no stinkin' evidence...

[cantwealljustgetalong]

36. Yep, I do...

I already told you why...

Actually, they didn't...

Actually, I didn't...

I'm not interested in people knowing why and couldn't care less what seems to you the best thing to do...

Because you are spinning like a maytag in the rinse cycle...

Yes, there is a reason...

[Violet_Crumble]

45. The 'Because I Say So!!' approach doesn't work...

When someone accuses me of spinning something, I'd like to know why, and a 'because I say so!!!' sort of reply isn't all that convincing, and leads to the conclusion that there's no spin going on at all...

If yr not interesting in people knowing why you have a particular opinion, then why are you continuing to post in this sub-thread?

The post in question that you claim wasn't someone drawing a correlation between the reduction in support for suicide-bombings and the fence is this:

"The Peace Fence Is building peace. More fence, less suicide bombers, less support for suicide bombers. Keep on that trend, please."

I'd like anyone to try to point out how that isn't trying to draw a correlation. I'm prepared to wait :)

Violet...

[drdon326]

46. Me too, Violet....

.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Good. We can wait here together for the answer...

Surely it won't take too long for someone to appear and explain why that particular attempt at a correlation wasn't an attempt at a correlation...


Violet...

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

57. 'Because I Say So!!' approach doesn't work...

I agree, you should stop using it...

[Gimel]

54. A trend

I believe I mentioned a trend, not a correlation. A trend, you might want to look up that word, is usually noticed before data is collected and a hypothesis is made about a possible correlation. Then the data is analyzed to confirm a correlation. Obviously, that is not the level that I have referred to.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gimel]

59. That does seem to be

a trend as well. However, even if we could determine that there was a correlation between certain content and certain responses, it is not necessarily cause and effect. ;)

[durutti]

7. Good.

Suicide bombing has done nothing but harm the Palestinian cause.

[drdon326]

11. Yeah...

who gives a flying fuck about the agony,misery and brutality
suicide bombing has done on innocent israelis...

No...the only reason they should stop because it "harms the palestinian cause".

i'd say what i think of your post but i would be banned
immediately. Boy, i thought i'd seen it all.

[tinnypriv]

13. Holy fuck

I agree with the doc.

I'm going to have a shower. This doesn't feel right.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. No...

Actually I don't agree with the doc at all. What duritti pointed out is very valid, because suicide bombings do harm the Palestinian cause. Clearly there's other effects, especially on the victims families. There's some folk who seem to think that unless we only focus on things by talking about how they affect Israelis and totally ignore the effect on Palestinians, there's a huge problem. Isn't this the same as all that nonsense calling that fence a *Peace Fence*? Every time one of them tries to justify why they call it a *Peace* Fence, their focus is solely on the effects on Israelis and not on how it affects the Palestinians...


Violet...

[tinnypriv]

17. I disagree partly

If Israel decided to start slaughtering innocent people in Lebanon again, my focus wouldn't be on the damage it had on Israel's image: it would be on the innocent people slaughtered.

Same in this case.

It isn't that what durutti said isn't valid, but it is offensive to the victims of Palestinian attacks to state it as such.

(IMO -- this isn't a factual matter of course)

[Resistance]

19. it is completely unfair to durutti

to assume here that he's unconcerned with innocent victims of suicide bombings.

[tinnypriv]

20. I'm not assuming that

I'm stating that those victims aren't his focus, when I think they should be.

[Resistance]

22. I don't think that is a fair assumption either

[durutti]

66. I'm concerned w/ the innocent on all sides.

And I also believe that if the Palestinians would adopt tactics *other* than suicide bombing, then Palestinian rights would be more likely to be respected, which would in turn mean an end to all the violence sooner rather than later.

I probably should have condemned the harm done to Israelis in my initial post as well. I posted it in a hurry, just as I was about to go somewhere.

[tinnypriv]

71. Thanks for clarifying

As I said to some others privately, I suspected that this might be your true position on this issue.

Which incidentially, I agree with. :)

[Violet_Crumble]

21. That's true when you put it like that...

I'm positive it would cause offense to the victims of suicide-bombings, and I can understand why they'd be offended. But when it comes to causing offense to those who aren't, and who are guilty of focusing on Israel to the exlusion of harm being done to Palestinians, I don't really understand why they'd be offended...

Violet...

[MikeGalos]

27. Actually

to claim that Israel was slaughtering innocent people in Lebanon (if you are referring to Sharon's role in Sabra and Shatilla) then perhaps it would be unreasonable to focus on Israel at all since that massacre was done by Lebanese to Lebanese and while it could be argued that Sharon should have stopped it, the same could be said for Churchill and Roosevelt. I don't usually absolve Hitler to blame Roosevelt, nor do I absolve the Lebanese murderers to blame Israel.

[tinnypriv]

34. I'm not referring to that actually

As should have been obvious, given that I said Israel, and not "right-wing, Israeli-trained Christian murderers". Anyway, two points:

1. Sabra and Shatila was a footnote to the Lebanon invasion.
2. That isn't a "claim" from me though I'm not especially interested in discussing why that is true here.

[Resistance]

35. Sharon directed the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila

it is more than a problem of should he have stopped it or not.

[MikeGalos]

38. Sure he did

and he managed to mysteriously direct the Lebanese militia units from Jerusalem where he was at the time. Maybe he did it with secret Israeli mind control techniques...

Amazing what people will believe to find a way to blame an Israeli for an Arab massacre of other Arabs. Interesting version of history you've got spun there.

I suppose next you'll say that Golda Meir was responsible for the Black September massacres in Jordan because King Hussein was an undercover Mossad agent...

[RPG-7]

65. He wasn't in Jerusalem

He was in the Kuwait embassy junction at the edge of Shatila camp. He could personally see in. He personally told the IDF to not allow anyone out of the camps. The IDF kept the Palestinians in their slaughterpen for their Lebanese butchers and Ariel Sharon personally watched the whole thing happen.

[Gimel]

67. Is that

your witness? Your testimony?

[RPG-7]

68. His whereabouts can be determined..

by buying his autobiography Ariel Sharon, Warrior: An Autobiography and checking p. 498.

Then again Sharon lies so much he really isn't a good source is he?

[MikeGalos]

69. Nope

Sorry to burst your wishful thinking but at the time he was at a staff meeting in Jerusalem.

[RPG-7]

70. So why did he tell the Kahan commission that was where he was?

Are you just making these things up as you go along?

[Gimel]

55. And you know what?

Ariel Sharon has been spotted in Iraq, has visited the captured Saddam and is directing US forces there, too. B-)

[durutti]

64. Of course I care about all the harm done to Israelis.

But the harm done to Israelis is obvious.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

37. it's done something else too...

it's mangled quite a few buses...

oh, and it's also murdered and maimed babies, children, mothers, teenagers, college students, grandparents, Arabs and Jews...

[MikeGalos]

39. Hey

don't bring dead and maimed babies, children, mothers, teenagers, college students, grandparents, Arabs and Jews into the picture, we're talking about something infinitely more important; Arafat's media image.

[Gimel]

53. It's the truth

It hasn't advanced their cause. Some can successfully ignore the crimes against humanity. The cause for the establishment of a peaceful homeland for Palestinians is farther than ever from it's accomplishment.

Edit: fixed an error

[MikeGalos]

14. Wow, I'm so happy

only half (plus or minus the margin of error) of the population that Israel is supposed to consider an honest treaty partner are in favor of murdering innocent children.

Wow. And some of you are considering this a positive?

That any more than a tiny fraction of a percent think that killing innocent civilians is a good thing is criminal and the Palestinian people should be hanging their heads in shame over what they've allowed their people to become.

If you are of the group that thinks this is a war, then this says that half the Palestinian population supports war crimes against civilians.

For those of you who think this isn't a war (and that includes those who hold Israel to terms different than those of a nation at war) then this is half the population supporting cold-blooded mass murder.

And you wonder why those of us supporting Israel are suspicious?

[Violet_Crumble]

18. What are you suspicious about, Mike?

Also, I didn't see anywhere in the poll any question relating to killing innocent children. I imagine if a question had been asked about that in particular, the support would have fallen much further, as most people have a soft spot for kids...

I'm curious though. What is the level of support in Israeli polls for attacks on Palestinian civilians, eg. shooting children out playing and dropping bombs on residential buildings? Whatever the level of support, that would mean that that part of the Israeli population supports war crimes against civilians, or cold-blooded mass murder. Or if you think it doesn't, do you want to explain why? I could change yr words slightly and say that no matter how small the support from Israelis are for these things or transfer, that the Israeli people should be hanging their heads in shame over what they've allowed to let their people become, but I won't say that about either the Israelis or Palestinians, because to do so is to ignore all the reasons and circumstances that have led people to support such things. Trying to put yrself in the shoes of other people is sometimes a good idea. Israelis and Palestinians aren't living some comfortable suburban life in the US, and there are reasons why segments of both populations would hold the views they do, despite the fact that I disagree with all those views...

Violet...

[MikeGalos]

30. If you have any poll

that the majority of Israelis support the intentional murder of children and other innocent civilians, please either produce it or stop implying the same.

I don't recall Arafat arresting and convicting any terrorists. Yet here, the complaint isn't about his complicity, but, rather about whether Israelis put on trial got sufficiently harsh sentences for ACCIDENTAL deaths of civilians.

Perhaps a single standard would do more good than two faces.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. I didn't imply anything of the sort...

You didn't say what you were suspicious of, Mike. So, what is it?

Show me where I did, because I didn't. You stated that it didn't matter if even a small fraction of the Palestinian population were to support suicide bombings, Palestinians should be ashamed of themselves. And unless the only crime committed is considered to be suicide-bombings, then why doesn't the same as what you said apply to Israel as well?

And please don't try to say that some of those deaths of Palestinian civilians have been accidental. There's nothing accidental about shooting children out playing or dropping bombs on buildings and killing children..

If I were to claim that only suicide bombings are a crime against the civilian population, and try to justify other crimes as not being crimes, that's when I'd be showing double standards...


Violet...

[MikeGalos]

41. Well,

if you care to read my post rather than just use it as a launching point for yet another baseless set of accusations with no documentation to back up their claims, perhaps you'd realize that what you claim I said wasn't what I actually said.

Intentionally murdering civilians is either a war crime or cold blooded murder. Which are you defending when PA backed forces repeatedly do those crimes? And why?

[Violet_Crumble]

49. And?

I did read yr posts, Mike. Asking you to point out to me where I supposedly implied that the majority of Israelis supported killing Palestinians is a 'launching point for yet another baseless set of accusations with no documentation to back up their claim'? If it's not that, what 'baseless set of accusations' am I supposed to be backing up with documentation? Also, what am I supposed to have claimed you said that you didn't say at all?

I don't understand this. Have I ever said that murdering civilians isn't a war crime or cold blooded murder? It doesn't matter if it's Israeli or Palestinian civilians who are the victims - it's still a crime against humanity....

btw, have you got any credible evidence that the PA backs Hamas? I'd be interested in seeing it...

Violet...

[MikeGalos]

51. Your reply in 33

consisted of nothing but two strawmen arguments and a red herring. I think that's the point.

Perhaps you'd get better replies if you didn't put words in peoples' mouths and then use up space telling them why things they never said are wrong.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

60. trend and correlation...

"put words in peoples' mouths and then use up space telling them why things they never said are wrong"...

good example of a definite trend with a strong correlation...

[Violet_Crumble]

63. I've asked you several times now...

to point out to me where exactly in the post where I claimed you said things you never said. I also asked you to point out where exactly I strongly implied that a majority of the Israeli population support the killing of Palestinian civilians. How is that 'putting words in peoples' mouths', Mike? So, can you please point them out specifically?



Violet...

[GabysPoppy]

40. What am I missing?

I am supposed to be overjoyed that only 1 in 2 Palestinians favor suicide bombing?

And this is progress?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Who said yr supposed to be overjoyed?

Obviously a drop in support for suicide-bombings would mean that those who recruit suicide-bombers aren't going to have as much success as before. Of course it'd be great if there was zero support, but I don't really understand how a drop in support isn't progress. Care to explain how it isn't, even if it is a small step?


Violet...

[MikeGalos]

52. It's simple

It's the same as George Bush trashing the economy and the trumpeting himself as a great economist when the economy recovers slightly but to nowhere near where it was.

Here it is, step-by-step:

Bush

1. Destroy economy (and blame Democrats)
   
2. make things worse while people suffer
   
3. eventually there'll be a minor improvement but still horribly worse than before Bush's economy
   
4. deny blame for the huge collapse, claim credit for the trivial improvement as great accomplishment

PA Government

1. Destroy peace process and start war (and blame Israel)
   
2. make things worse while people die
   
3. eventually there'll be a minor improvement but still horribly worse than before Arafat's intefada
   
4. deny blame for the huge collapse, claim credit for the trivial improvement as great accomplishment

Sound familiar?

[bluesoul]

61. How about Sharon

destroying everything?

[JohnLocke]

58. Exellent!

My heart is lightened.

[drdon326]

62. I'm fascinated...

how you figure that.