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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 12:37 PM
Original message
Scary US views
In recent days, there has been a truly frightening articulation of the US administrations perception of Israel vis--vis the Muslim world. On Friday, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta essentially blamed Israel for its own increasing isolation, urging the Jewish state to reach out to its neighbors.

He suggested that Israel make diplomatic inroads with the Muslim Brotherhoods Egypt, Recep Tayyip Erdogans increasingly Islamist and anti-Israel Turkey, and vulnerable Jordan, a country whose leadership for the sake of self-preservation has been making concessions to its own Muslim Brotherhood.

And when asked at the end of his speech at the Brookings Institution in Washington what operative steps Israel could make to advance negotiations with the Palestinians, Panetta said: Just get to the damn table.

In other words, the clearly exasperated Panetta believes that if only stubborn Israel would make more concessions to the Palestinians, regional animosity toward Israel would miraculously evaporate after decades of incitement.

more...
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id...
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Israel frequently causes their own problems, mostly with their unwillingness to cooperate.
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RT Atlanta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not sure what's "Scary" about the opinions stated in
the post. They seem fair and reasonable to me.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Read on in the article for what's scary...
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 01:13 PM by shira
<snip>

Though one man was talking about Muslim perceptions in Europe and the other focused on Muslim political leadership in the region, both Panetta and Gutman had one thing in common: a maddening insistence on mixing up cause and effect.

No, Mr. Panetta, Israels isolation has not deepened as a result of anything that it has done (besides existing). In Turkey, in the Gaza Strip, in Tunisia and now in Egypt, governments have been voted into power in democratic elections that have, or soon will, pursue foreign policies exceedingly antagonistic toward the Jewish state.

After all, what interest would any Arab country in the region have in strengthening ties with Israel at a time when its citizens, given the chance to choose, are expressing a distinct preference for a particularly fundamentalist, illiberal and anti-Western not to mention anti-Israel and anti-Semitic strain of Islamic leadership?

What Panetta should have said and didnt was that in light of the increasing hostility directed toward Israel by an increasing number of Muslim states in the region, the US reaffirms its commitment to Israels security.

<snip>
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'd say 'frightening' is in the eye of the beholder...
too which I'd add the old testament says...if your eye offends you....PLUCK IT OUT!

A change in perspectives is pretty much the obvious essential to ending more than 75 years of terrorism and violence that first took down Palestine, and for the past 60 years persistently threatens to take down Israel.

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AmericaIsGreat Donating Member (611 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't see where it says they should just start making concessions
However, ending settlement expansion is not a concession and that should have been done a long time ago. Israel not only refuses to do it, but continues to plan and build even more settlements. They also continue to make hits on Hamas fighters that inevitably cause casualties to innocent Palestinians. Those two things alone are a major part of the reason for the lack of dialogue.

I just don't see that Israel is interested in a two-state solution. So, while I'm certainly sympathetic to violence and rhetoric against them, it is dishonest to deny that they are not liable.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. Both Panetta and Gutman were given their posts by Barack Obama
who is a Democrat president who will is not apparently removing them, his SoS Hilary Clinton had some things to say about Israel too

what do you have to say about that?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Can't say I know WTF is going on, but this is easy pickings for Repukes like Romney and Gingrich.
Do you agree with everything Obama has done WRT Israel/Palestine or do you fear criticizing Obama?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Really easy pickings? you think Republcans will win on Israel alone?
is that it? I would hope most Americans would have far more pressing concerns where the US is concerned, wouldn't you?

as to Obama on the Israel Palestine issue no I do not agree with him in all his decisions
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. These 3 remarks WRT Israel in the past few days look really amateurish. The Repukes don't need...
...any help.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'm sure they don't at least where some are concerned but for most Democrats
the US not Israel is their first concern

say didn't you recently point out that sometimes 'Democrats' vote for Republicans? I still hold that if that is the case they aren't Democrats
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Gutman apologized 100%
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 03:18 PM by King_David
We shall see what happens next.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. you mean whether or not his apology is accepted? n/t
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Nah you missed the point
He realized he was WRONG !!
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Did he say he was wrong or that he was 'taken' wrong?
they are 2 different things
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. The irony is rich:
..both Panetta and Gutman had one thing in common: a maddening insistence on mixing up cause and effect."

lol, too funny. It is never about Israeli policy, Panetta and Gutman, under the bus. The occupation/land theft incites no one according to some.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Israel could go back to the strict 1949 armistice lines and it wouldn't matter one bit to the MB...
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 01:59 PM by shira
...and their allies throughout the mideast, as Israel's very existence is an affront and incitement.

You do realize that, don't you?

Well, I guess not. And neither do Gutman or Panetta, which makes them clowns on all things I/P.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. According to the shill/apologist who wrote the OP you posted, yea.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 02:08 PM by Jefferson23
Panetta and Gutman are now clowns in your opinion..duly noted shira.

on edit for clarity.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Oh yeah? Show me where the MB, its affiliates, or supporters endorse 2 states. NT
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. The Muslm Brotherhood is preventing Bibi from a two state solution..
that is your position?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. WTF? No. Have you ever once seen the MB stating they'd agree to a peaceful 2 state solution?
Further, how do you expect Israel to ever make peace with Hamas?

Or with the PA in the event the 2 form a coalition together?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The Muslim Brotherhood is preventing Bibi? Otherwise your question
is inapplicable.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. This isn't about Bibi. What makes you think a Meretz run government could make Hamas and friends...
...happy in a 2 state scenario?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. This has everything to do with Bibi and his Likud buddies.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 05:25 PM by Jefferson23
The OP is offensive, Obama has been nothing but supportive of Israel, and Bibi needs to think
about the response Panetta gave to THEIR ( Israel's) responsibility. Abe Foxman can scream all he wants about blaming
the alleged victim...Israel. He is wrong, and this continued meme is not accepted in most of the world,
most people paying attention do not buy it...nor should they. Panetta is not a guy who goes off the rails
on his own..think about it.

That you consider Gutman and especially Panetta clowns aligns you with Likud..nice for you.

on edit for clarity.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Nice try. Not even Meretz could work out a peace deal with Hamas, Iran, or the MB.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 07:18 PM by shira
Is that really too difficult for you to comprehend?

This is a religious war to them. As you well know, a religious conflict cannot be settled rationally. There's simply no way they'll ever allow for a Jewish state to exist in peace alongside them. They've never budged from that position. They wouldn't be who they are if they suddenly did change course. There's not one thing liberal or progressive about those groups.

It's absurd to think there's anything Israel can do short of destroying themselves to make inroads with extreme Islamist loonies.



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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. No, that is your opinion, offer the as you well know nonsense to someone else.
Enjoy defending Likud.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Can you provide evidence demonstrating that either Hamas, the MB, or Iran will recognize Israel..
...and let it exist in peace alongside a future Palestine.

Anything?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Ridiculous questions, ask the guy you called a clown on all things I/P.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 07:33 PM by Jefferson23
Maybe he'll write you back, I imagine he could use a laugh today.

on edit to add contact info:

Department of Defense
Secretary Leon E. Panetta
http://www.defenselink.mil
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. That means 'No'. So you have zero evidence of Hamas, Iran, and the MB wanting to make peace...
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 07:34 PM by shira
...with Israel in some future 2 state scenario.

And you have the temerity to write that it's only my opinion Meretz could never cut a deal with extreme Islamist regimes.

:eyes:

Thanks for playing.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. You answer my questions for me, why bother to ask me at all shira.
I don't play. You should also try and not misquote me, that is playing..which btw you do not do very well.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. You had your shot. You've got nothing. Thanks for playing. n/t
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Oh come on, write Panetta, the Secretary of Defense..ask him
the same questions...let him know you think he is a clown on all things I/P while you're at it.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. But I'm asking you. Why don't you just admit you can't defend what you're arguing in favor of? NT
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
18. Panetta engaged in the classic of blaming the victim
It is the PA that has committed itself to no direct negotiations with Israel.

Panetta has been thoroughly duped by misleading arab propaganda and has clearly demonstrated that he is not a fit leader, but a follower.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. lol, ok. More support for the shill/apologist that authored the OP. n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. actually you avoid direct questions....
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 12:28 AM by pelsar
as i've been reading your posts, this time paying more attention to what you actually write, obviously there is a pattern, we all have patterns and as a

"mildly aspergers mathematician", yours is very clear: Every so often you'll put forth a very clear opinion that to you is clearly obvious, a "fact" and when called upon it, you basically refuse to explain the logic how you got there. In fact you spend little time, explaining anything here.


which means I spend far more time pointing out just why those defences are half baked, etc, and become far more aware of just how stupid Zionism and its defenders are.

Ultimately, I'm a mildly aspergers mathematician. What gets to me most is not human suffering, but faulty chains of reasoning. That Zionism is wrong is merely a fact; what has an emotional impact on me is the stupidity of the arguments used to support it.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


its the 'faulty chain of reasoning that you have never explained, and when your posts are in fact questioned you quickly retreat to a non answer and then make a few comments on how we are "answering for you", which in fact we are, as we attempt to get more information out of you to explain your simplistic responses

and having some family members who do have aspergers, i can very easily understand your lack of response. Part of the character is an inability to explain how one gets to a conclusion, they cannot be "moved" or convinced to believe something else, but at the sametime, they can't really give good logical reasons for believing what they do....

btw i did enjoy the comment on how stupid the defenders of zionism are....i would put forth defending and promoting the addition of one more fascist theocratic state by a "progressive" is the ultimate in stupidity ---you might want to check the logic in that line of reasoning
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. ah Pelsar you should check the comment your referring to
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 01:56 AM by azurnoir
however if you have family members with Aspergers they're in good company as some historical figures such as Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, and Thomas Jefferson are also felt to possibly have had it too
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. You're confused pelsar. I am not the poster you are referring to.
Look at your own link, I am not a participant in that thread.

I answer questions directly btw, I do not answer questions I find to be ridiculous/asinine.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. oops..sorry...
you've always answered well....obviously i disagree with everything you write. and i have eternal hope that one day god will shine on you and you will see the eternal wisdom that i posses and you will be welcomed in to my new cult, until then however, we can continue to argue...
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. No problem pelsar..hope springs eternal for us both.
:hi:


"Hope springs eternal in the human breast:
Man never Is, but always To be blest:"

Alexander Pope (16881744), British poet. An Essay on Man (Fr. Epistle I). . .

Oxford University Press

http://quotes.dictionary.com/Hope_springs_eternal_in_th... :
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
51. You still avoided the question
In this thread, you have thrown out shrill non-comments about the messenger, never about the accuracy of the message.
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. This logical fallacy is called "attacking the messenger"
You don't like the message, so say something negative about the messenger.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. That's about all they have when they're trying to avoid answering simple questions. n/t
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Don't forget recycling past memes
I recall seeing a response regarding the 2nd intifada being started by someone's internet campaign and not by Arafat and Barghouti? It's like 9/11 truthers, no matter how much evidence you provide, they still want to believe the myth.
I'
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. The content is bullshit and the author is a shill...no need to separate the two.
The United States under Obama could not be more supportive of Israel, Panetta's statements are responsible..this OP
is Likud garbage.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Would it be out of line to tell the USA to get to the damn table with al-Qaeda? n/t
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. The Palestinians and a terrorist group all the same to you.
I suggest one last time, write Panetta yourself, and ask him what you
believe are pertinent questions..oh hell, copy one to Obama too.

Let the Defense Secretary know you think he is a clown on all I/P issues, then state
your questions..be sure to let us know if you receive a reply.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Hamas is a terror group that the PA is trying to form a coalition gov't with....
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 04:53 PM by shira
They're also a branch of the MB and will have to be part of any peace process.

======

You keep avoiding questions because you realize you can't defend the irrational...

It's pretty obvious.

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
47.  I think most people reading your posts can figure out what is, as you say, "pretty obvious". n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Yep, using empirical evidence & logic is obviously a zionist trick....
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 05:27 PM by shira
Don't you ever feel bad when you never have the answers to the most simple, basic questions regarding your view on I/P?

You just "feel" you're right no matter what?

:shrug:
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. This logical fallacy is called a Argumentum ad Nauseum
Repeating the logical fallacy is a logical fallacy.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. lol, sure thing champ. n/t
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