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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:13 AM
Original message
'Jew-hate stems from conflict'
US ambassador in Belgium provides controversial explanation for Muslim anti-Semitism

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4156355,00.ht...

<snip>

"Growing global anti-Semitism is linked to Israels policy towards the Palestinians, the American ambassador to Belgium told stunned Jewish conference attendants in Brussels earlier this week.

Speaking Wednesday at a Jewish conference on anti-Semitism organized by the European Jewish Union (EJU,) Howard Gutman told participants he was apologizing in advance if his words are not to their liking. He then proceeded to make controversial statements about his views on Muslim anti-Semitism, Yedioth Ahronoth reported Friday.

A distinction should be made between traditional anti-Semitism, which should be condemned and Muslim hatred for Jews, which stems from the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, Gutman said. He also argued that an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty will significantly diminish Muslim anti-Semitism.

The American envoy, a lawyer by training, is Jewish and played a major role in fundraising for the Democratic Party. He was appointed to the post by President Barack Obama."
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Pasture pastry. Meadow muffins. Barn buns. Tundra teacakes.
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. From what I know, there's no death of scholarship on this
I think opinions are divided as to whether the 'new anti-Semitism' is a really 'new' at all. I'm not really qualified to weigh in with confidence here, but my sense is that even if some of its stems specifically from Palestine, it's got plenty of the old flavor in it as well.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Very true
I always get irritated by the phrase 'the new antisemitism'. There's nothing new about antisemitism.
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. I know quite a few that agree with this.
They point out that they are not anti-Semitic as much as anti-Israel, but it get construed as old time anti-Semitism. All of these folks that have been in some of the conversations I'm thinking about, are all just ordinary Americans, not Islamic or Arab, or Middle Eastern in anyway, so not quite what the orator was discussing, but still, I see a very similar thing happening here, even among some jews, who are very disgusted with Israel's refusal to work out an equitable situation.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. No kidding
Quite few...

That is why a new politically correct form of Antisemitism has emerged in the non Muslim countries ( mainly western countries ) , where " code" is used

i.e.:anti-Zionism. in Muslim countries they have no such restraints and call a dirty Jew a Jew. ( The Protocols TV series is the biggest hit on TV in Egypt)

Fire this ambassador !!

Antisemitism must be stamped out wherever it is found.





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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Anti-Israelism isn't anti-semitism. That's my point. So long as
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 10:16 AM by Lionessa
folks like you try to make it the same, you're feelings will be hurt, and more and more individuals will become hateful of all the crap Israel pulls, then the more your nonsense equivalent of it being the same as anti-Semitism will entrench you and many like you in that false dicotomy, and then you'll get you feelers hurt some more. It's a vicious cycle and only the Israeli government and the Zionists can change that, not those of us that are sick of the apartheid bigotry and hatred expressed by Israel.


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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Here's a problem with that
I believe that one can criticize Israel and not be an anti-Semite. Plenty of people do just that every day. But some of those same folks will then turn around and say that any criticism of illegal immigration or welfare (or any number of other topics) is automatically racism. If you believe that one can criticize Israel and not be anti-Semitic, you should give others the same courtesy you demand and not claim that racism is the sole motivation for criticism of illegal immigration, etc.

Take this quite contentious thread from the other day:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

There were plenty of posters there who seemed to think that any mention (let alone criticism) of this woman or her behavior was automatically racism. I'd bet a large sum that some of those same people believe that their own criticism of Israel does not constitute anti-Semitism. In many cases, they'd probably be right, but if you ask such for yourself, you're a hypocrite if you don't grant the benefit of the doubt to others in discussions of similarly charged topics.

That being said, plenty of Israel's critics ARE anti-Semites, just as plenty of critics of illegal immigration etc. ARE racists. But one does not automatically equal the other.

Another problem with all of this is that everybody seems to have their own definition of what is and is not racism, anti-Semitism etc. And quite often, their definition of these things NEVER includes what they themselves say or believe.
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. It seems we are agreeing, so why do you agree in such an argumentative way?
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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I certainly wasn't trying to come across like that
I apologize if I did. I was less trying to rebut your point and more trying to throw in a new angle. I believe we do agree that one can be critical of Israel and not be anti-Semitic. I guess my point was that some of those same people do not allow others the same courtesy in similar arguments. I'm certainly not accusing you of that, but I have seen it plenty of times with other posters here and felt it had to be mentioned.

I probably could have worded it better :toast:
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. All is good. The typewritten word loses so much without personal
inflection to help smooth over the inevitable word salads and such. :)
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Anti-Israelism?
That's a new one. Never heard that term before. What does it mean?

Does it mean being opposed to the policies of the government of Israel? Or to the existence of Israel or what?

Would opposing the policies of the US government be anti-Americanism?
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. It is a new 'code' word nt
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. No. The new code word is that disliking Israeli policy is the same as hating jews.
A country is not a peoples. I will not dishonor every jew by extending my dislike and hatred of Israel (note how I don't even say "their country" because so many aren't there) to all people of the jewish faith, anymore than I'd consider my dislike of what is happening in Syria a representation of all Arabs, or what's going on here at Occupy sites as all caucasians.

You're the one trying to force a country upon an entire people, not me.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Israel is The Jewish State

You never knew this?

Weather you acknowledge this or not is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

The president of Iran calls it "The Zionist entity" ha ha ha
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. But not all Jews are Israeli and that's one of my points. Furthermore, not all Israeli Jews
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 09:07 PM by Lionessa
agree with their country's policies; so just like many MEers hate "America," doesn't mean they hate Americans. They too are intelligent enough to figure out that not all Americans embrace American imperialism, etc.

Lastly the fact that Israel is a "Jewish" Country, not state, is one of the other reasons I hate Israel and what it chooses to stand for. A country intended for one kind and one kind only is no country worth crap imo.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Lionessa : ... ''is one of the other reasons I hate Israel ''

Quelle surprise!


Afraid you have just disqualified yourself from any further constructive conversation here.


I have no time for anyone who has a 'hate Israel ' mentality.


Disgusting to say the least.


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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. So I don't like theocracies, sue me.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Israel is not a theocracy
That you would even imagine that it is shows a lack of basic information on your part.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Do you hate Italy too?
How about Japan?

And who ever said that Israel was "a country intended for one kind and one kind only?"
It's a state created with a specific mission in mind. That in no way imples that other people are unwelcome or aren't valued members of their society.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. Israel is not 'intended for one kind and one kind only'
Not saying that there isn't plenty of racism and bigotry in Israel, as in some other countries.

But 'countries for one kind and one kind only' generally have considerably less than 25% of their population consisting of other ethnic groups than the majority.

The UK is generally regarded as a multicultural country. Only 14% of our population is not of White British origin.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. Of course disliking Israeli policy isn't hating Jews
Edited on Mon Dec-05-11 06:09 AM by LeftishBrit
I dislike much of Israeli policy, at any rate as regards the Palestinian issue, the increasing influence of the religious right, and the recent encroachments on internal democracy - though I think that their internal economic and social policies, even after considerable dilution of the original ideals, are much better than those of many other countries.

However, I don't think you would say , as regards your examples, 'I hate Syria' or 'I hate America'. You might say 'I hate the Syrian government' or 'I hate American economic injustice/ police brutality/ the power of the corporations'. But not hatred for a whole country. I don't think it's necessarily antisemitic; but it is prejudiced - just as when the American Right attacks French 'cheese eating surrender monkeys', or the British Right blames every problem on the EU, they are not being racist, but they are still being blinkered.
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. It means my disagreement and anger are at a country not an ethnic or religious group.
For example I have no feelings whatsoever about random individual jews, I don't boycott jewish artists or actors or comedian. However, I really hate what Israel is doing, it happens to be a jewish country, but it isn't it's jewishness that bothers me. Unless you are somehow saying that all jews think what Israel is doing is just peachy. I know it isn't. I dated a fellow who was just as angry and befuddled by the choices Israel is making as I am, and he was jewish.

It seems that it's some sector of jews that want to force the actions and decisions of Israel upon all jews, therefore being able to equate a nation with an entire worldwide religious/ethnic group. I'm not the one doing that. I can see a country without having to equate it's actions as the desires and onuses of all Jews.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Is it fair to say that there are many countries with whom you disagree and feel anger?
For instance, do you disagree with or have anger towards the policies of the US or any of its allies? Or, say, China or Russia?

If so, would you say you, therefore, support anti-Americanism or anti-Chinaism, or anti-Russiaism?

Or anything of that nature?

Or is this feeling of disagreement and anger specific to only Israel?
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Israel is the topic here. You can google any other posts of mine
to determine the answer to your questions.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Is there anything Israel can do that would make you stop supporting anti-Israelism?
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 09:51 PM by oberliner
That is to say, is it the very existence of Israel itself that makes you angry or just some of the policies of the current and/or past governments?

If Likud was voted out, for instance, and a more left-wing governing coalition took over, would that make a difference?

It just seems really strong to say you endorse anti-Israelism. That seems to suggest that it is the country itself that makes you angry rather than specific policies of specific governments.

For instance, I could understand one saying that one is anti-Occupation or anti-Likud or something specific like that, as opposed to anti the entire country.

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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Left and right in other countries doesn't mean the same thing necessarily as here.
With that in mind, yes, I never hated Israel before I became aware of their BS regarding Palestinians, so I think I can safely say that they could set forth policies that will ease my hatred of the country's policies.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Like what policies?
If the occupation of the West Bank ended and Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders would that be the end of your hatred?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. wow.
So what you're basically saying is that you recently learned a small amount of information regarding a century old conflict of shocking complexity whose historical latitude touches on most key historical landmarks during that time and has had an impact that reaches clear across the globe. And from that information you decided that the most rational stand to take was to settle on hating Israel.

While your intellectual viewpoints are certainly no business of mine I would like to point out one or two things that you should consider before investing more time in this particular ideological direction. While I have no idea what it is you "learned" recently, the few "facts" you posited here are alarmingly devoid of rational thinking. For example, left and right mean the same thing in Israel as they do in America. Some of the issues are different, sure. But the basic spectrum used to simplify and describe political standpoints remains unaltered. On that same note, I understand you may be upset with some of Israel's policies. This is actually quite reasonable. However a theocracy refers to a specific kind of government whch uses religious laws in place of secular ones. Israel is pretty clearly not a theocrazy.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. She says : Lionessa : ''I hate Israel ''
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 10:03 PM by King_David
Not the Governmental Policies.

She says 'I hate Israel ' (post 29)
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Lionessa Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Same as saying "I hate America" but not "Americans" as is said about us all the time
by foreigners. Really being obtuse there aren't you.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. double post
Edited on Mon Dec-05-11 01:38 AM by Shaktimaan
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Israel and the Apartheid Slander
By RICHARD J. GOLDSTONE

Published: October 31, 2011

THE Palestinian Authoritys request for full United Nations membership has put hope for any two-state solution under increasing pressure. The need for reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians has never been greater. So it is important to separate legitimate criticism of Israel from assaults that aim to isolate, demonize and delegitimize it.

One particularly pernicious and enduring canard that is surfacing again is that Israel pursues apartheid policies. In Cape Town starting on Saturday, a London-based nongovernmental organization called the Russell Tribunal on Palestine will hold a hearing on whether Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid. It is not a tribunal. The evidence is going to be one-sided and the members of the jury are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known.

While apartheid can have broader meaning, its use is meant to evoke the situation in pre-1994 South Africa. It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations.

I know all too well the cruelty of South Africas abhorrent apartheid system, under which human beings characterized as black had no rights to vote, hold political office, use white toilets or beaches, marry whites, live in whites-only areas or even be there without a pass. Blacks critically injured in car accidents were left to bleed to death if there was no black ambulance to rush them to a black hospital. White hospitals were prohibited from saving their lives.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-th ...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. White House distances itself from U.S. ambassador to Belgium following shocking comments
The White House has distanced itself from the American ambassador to Belgium, following his declaration that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has stoked global anti-Semitism.

"We condemn anti-semitism in all its forms, and that there is never any justification for prejudice against the Jewish people or Israel," the White House said in a statement that was sent tonight to Jewish leaders and others. A copy of that statement was forwarded to the Washington Jewish Week.

http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2011/12/04/309054...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. As it should. Imagine this guy saying anti-Arab hate is based on Mideast policies. n/t
Edited on Sun Dec-04-11 06:37 PM by shira
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. What a load of shit
This ambassador should be fired.

As is seen on forums on the Internet, Jew hate is everywhere ,even on progressive sites.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. He has since made a statement
I strongly condemn anti-Semitism in all its forms. I deeply regret if my comments were taken the wrong way. My own personal history and that of my family is testimony to the salience of this issue and my continued commitment to combatting anti-Semitism.

Good enough?
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yes I think so
Apologies should be accepted when people see their errors.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. No; Jew-hatred long predated the state of Israel...
and always gets worse in economic hard times. As with most forms of ethnic bigotry.

People may use actions by Israel as an *excuse* but those who really hate Jews would use any excuse.

Israeli actions toward the Palestinians might lead to increased criticism of Israel, but not to Jew-hatred, unless people are already antisemitic. Let us note that over half of the world's Jews don't even live in Israel.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
12. Muslim anti-Semitism, Israel and the dynamics of self-destructive scapegoating
Tons of links embedded at website...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/richardlandes/1001211... /

Excerpt

If I am wrong, and Palestinian hatred is merely a result of the occupation, then concessions from the Israelis should lead to a lessening of Palestinian hatred, and the road to peace. This is the prevailing paradigm that currently dominates thinking about the Arab-Israeli conflict. It projects a kind of positive-sum rationality on Arab political culture, and assumes that if somethings wrong, it is the fault of the stronger party unwilling to compromise (Israel).

Of course, if the Palestinians really are rational, really want their own state (rather than to destroy Israel), then they should, in principle, be amenable to making some important moves towards reconciliation, like, say, cutting off the hate incitement on TV, and resettling their refugees out of the miserable camps theyve been confined to since 1948. No?

But if Im right, if its a profoundly rooted anti-Semitism among Arabs today, then its another story entirely. If I'm right, then "solving the refugee problem" by allowing these poor victims of war to have a real home is not on the Palestinian agenda even if they got their state. On the contrary, these refugees are designated victim-weapons in a war of annihilation.

If Im right, then every time Israel makes concessions, it encourages further aggressions. Thus, despite what the politically correct paradigm, based on projecting our own liberal mentality on others, anticipated, every time Israel engages in anti-imperialist activities withdrawing from most of the West Bank (1994-2000), southern Lebanon (2000) and Gaza (2005) the result was more aggression.

Nor is this merely a problem faced by Israel, despite the widespread fantasy that throwing Israel into the maw of the beast, will somehow solve the problem. For ultimately, the problem of anti-Semitism is not a Jewish but a gentile problem. Granted the Jews suffer from anti-Semitism. But the ultimate price is paid by those foolish enough to get sucked into the world of hatred and paranoia that anti-Semites peddle. As any historian of World War II can tell you, if six million Jews were murdered, more than ten times (!) as many non-Jews died in that madness.

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RZM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. You're probably aware of this book already
But if not, you'd probably find it quite interesting and relevant to this discussion:

http://www.amazon.com/Nazi-Propaganda-Arab-World-Prefac...

Herf is an amazing scholar and IMO very trustworthy.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. Tsk. nt
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-11 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. How does the Damascus
Blood Libel of 1850 fit in his thesis?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
35. I wonder if he also believes...
...that a large degree of anti-black racism amongst white southern Americans is primarily motivated by their disagreement with current White House policies?

Someone like this has probably also worked out a graph to describe what percentage of female victims of domestic violence can be directly traced back to a rejection of Nancy Pelosi's political agenda.
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