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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 07:05 AM
Original message
The Third Intifada Is Here
This is a Diplomatic Intifada, aimed at rallying the world against Israel in the hope of forcing it to accept all of the Palestinian Authority's demands, first and foremost a full withdrawal to the pre-1967 armistice lines.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas has decided that it is better to negotiate with the UN than with Israel.

Palestinian Authority officials are hoping that international pressure will force Israel to its knees. They point out that similar measures forced Apartheid South Africa to eventually succumb to the will of the international community.

Once the Palestinian Authority gains membership in these bodies, it is planning to launch a massive diplomatic campaign aimed at isolating Israel in the international arena. The ultimate goal is to seek Israel's expulsion from most UN bodies on the grounds that it is refusing to comply with UN resolutions concerning the Israeli-Arab conflict.

The Palestinian Authority says it wants to use its newly acquired membership in UNESCO to file a number of lawsuits against Israel in international courts and forums for alleged theft and destruction of archeological sites and antiquities in Jerusalem.


http://www.hudson-ny.org/2570/third-intifada
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nineteen50 Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. If you leave no opportunity for diplomacy you are promoting the opposite.
A world based on laws, what a scary thought.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well, a diplomatic 'intifada' is a lot better than an armed one
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 08:02 AM by LeftishBrit
And lawsuits are a lot better than bombs and rockets.

Perhaps Palestine will finally get statehood through *non*violent methods which ultimately work better than violent ones. (Or of course, Hamas might sabotage the process again...)
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Did I miss something?
Did the bombs and rockets stop?
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. No the IDF is still dropping them with impunity nt
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. No. My point was that this author seemed to be worried about the Palestinians having a 'diplomatic
intifada'; and I was pointing out that this was a much better way to proceed. Seems strange when people complain about the use of *non*violent methods.

Unfortunately, Hamas may well ensure (a) the continuation of the more violent methods; and (b) the sabotage of the nonviolent methods and their goals.
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I'm all for non-violent methods
But... how about sitting down and just talking with the intent of coming up with a compromise? Isn't that peaceful?

The evolution of the Arab/Israeli conflict has been one of ever decreasing violence and casualties. Beginning in '48 with traditional open warfare with uniformed soldier, tanks, planes, etc. They Arab States (and Iran) finally gave up on that after '73 because they could no longer sustain the casualty and materiel losses they were incurring. And even though Iran still threatens to revive it, that is not going to happen. National states don't stand a chance against Israel in traditional combat.

The next phase was came to be known as "terrorism" (although this term is highly misleading because people are clearly not terrified by it). It was however a traditional insurgency -- beginning with PLO hijackings and bombings in the '70s and leading to today's suicide bombings and rocket attacks. This decreased the violence to the point where the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is now among the LEAST violent (in terms of casualties) of more than 30 ongoing military conflicts currently taking place around the world. Effective Israel counter-measures, such as the security wall and continued naval blockade of Gaza have reduced the effectiveness of insurgency operations to acceptable rates to the majority of the Israeli public. However, it has not brought the Israelis and Palestinians any closer to establishing a compromise solution. In fact, the continued campaign of violence has made average Israelis more intransigent to compromise than at any time in the past.

Now, the idea is to morph the conflict again and play it out in the court of International Justice (UN, ICJ, civil suits, etc). I for one applaud this for two reasons, 1) it should (theoretically at least) bring the casualty rates down to nearly zero. If there no rocket or suicide bomber attacks -- there is no retaliation. Settler on Palestinian violence incurs significantly fewer casualties per year than occur over Fourth of July weekend in Compton. And 2) It has absolutely no chance of impacting Israel in any substantial way. The UN is already well-establish as being the world's largest manufacturer of anti-Israel resolutions, none of which have any more relevancy than your daily horoscope. The UN is a toothless, irrelevant player in this conflict.

As the author point out, however

"Abbas now risks losing the sympathy of a majority of Israelis who support the two-state solution and are ready for far-reaching concessions to the Palestinians."

This is very true, this constant barrage of irritation, de-legitimization rhetoric and para-legal wrangling will continue to erode the support for a peace settlement among the Israelis who support it until it reaches a point in the future that Palestinians will literally have no one willing to bargain with them.

Struggles of this kind only ever end in one of two ways -- 1) the "oppressed" become militarily strong enough to force surrender or compromise onto the "oppressor" -- OR -- 2) the "oppressed" negotiate an acceptable solution with the "oppressor" that leaves a path eventual resolution of the conflict. The Palestinians (for the most part) fully understand now that they will never achieve the first kind of resolution -- they should be positioning themselves for the second.

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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
41. Erasing Israelis past in UNESCO is still violence
Diplomatic in nature, but still an attempt to forfeit Israel's rich and long standing claim.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. What's the old saying? "War is diplomacy by other means"?
Or is it "Diplomacy is war by other means"? Anyway, they could both be true, in which case, pretty much anything the Palestinians do can be seen as some form of aggression by definition.

I personally prefer the forms of "aggression" that don't involve actual violence.
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Aggression still continues
Leveraging the OIC bloc in the UN to perpetuate its agenda is merely one more tangent in its ongoing assault against Israels' right to exist. Tactics evolve over time. Direct, ongoing agression failed in each of the wars waged against Israel, which begat the Intifidahs. This is merely the next prong of this long history of warfare.
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Dude,
So much more elegantly and concisely stated than what I wrote -- Kudos!
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thank you
I just read your response. Very well written. I have a tendency to eschew lengthy exposition at the expense of clarity on online forums.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's such a relief to see the Palestinians
finally turning to peaceful and legal means to persue their interests.
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Now they just need to acknowledge Israel's right to exist
and denounce terrorism.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. They already have...
LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN:

September 9, 1993


Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel



Mr. Prime Minister,


The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:


The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.


The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.


The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.


The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators


In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.



Sincerely,


Yasser Arafat

Chairman

The Palestine Liberation Organization


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recog...
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. And yet the PLO Charter still calls for the destruction of Israel
What the PLO says in English is not the same thing that the PLO says in Arabic.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. What horseshit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Coven...

Yasser Arafat wrote letters to President Clinton and Prime Minister Blair in January 1998 explicitly listing the articles of the Charter referred to in the PNC's 1996 vote. While this was seen as progress in some quarters, other Palestinian officials contended that the Charter had not yet been amended, and there were also reportedly discrepancies between the two letters.


The operative language of Arafat's letter to Clinton reads:

The Palestine National Council's resolution, in accordance with Article 33 of the Covenant, is a comprehensive amendment of the Covenant. All of the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the P.L.O. commitment to recognize and live in peace side by side with Israel are no longer in effect. As a result, Articles 6-10, 15, 19-23, and 30 have been nullified, and the parts in Articles 1-5, 11-14, 16-18, 25-27 and 29 that are inconsistent with the above mentioned commitments have also been nullified.<11><12>


The articles identified by Arafat as nullified call for Palestinian unity in armed struggle, deny the legitimacy of the establishment of Israel, deny the existence of a Jewish people with a historical or religious connection to Palestine, and label Zionism a racist, imperialist, fanatic, fascist, aggressive, colonialist political movement that must be eliminated from the Middle East for the sake of world peace.

Observers who had previously been skeptical of Palestinian claims that the Charter had been amended continued to voice doubts. In an attempt to end the confusion, the Wye River Memorandum included the following provision:

The Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Palestinian Central Council will reaffirm the letter of 22 January 1998 from PLO Chairman Yasir Arafat to President Clinton concerning the nullification of the Palestinian National Charter provisions that are inconsistent with the letters exchanged between the PLO and the Government of Israel on 910 September 1993. PLO Chairman Arafat, the Speaker of the Palestine National Council, and the Speaker of the Palestinian Council will invite the members of the PNC, as well as the members of the Central Council, the Council, and the Palestinian Heads of Ministries to a meeting to be addressed by President Clinton to reaffirm their support for the peace process and the aforementioned decisions of the Executive Committee and the Central Council.


These commitments were kept, leading President Clinton to declare to the assembled Palestinian officials on 14 December 1998 at Gaza:

I thank you for your rejectionfully, finally and foreverof the passages in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. For they were the ideological underpinnings of a struggle renounced at Oslo. By revoking them once and for all, you have sent, I say again, a powerful message not to the government, but to the people of Israel. You will touch people on the street there. You will reach their hearts there.


Like President Clinton, Israel and the Likud party now formally agreed that the objectionable clauses of the charter had been abrogated, in official statements and statements by Prime Minister Netanyahu, Foreign Minister Sharon, Defense Minister Mordechai and Trade and Industry Minister Sharansky.<13><14><15><16> With official Israeli objections to the Charter disappearing henceforward from lists of Palestinian violations of agreements,<17> the international legal controversy ended.

Despite President Clinton's optimism, the events of 1998 did not entirely resolve the controversy of the Charter. A June 1999 report by the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information on the status of the Charter made no mention of the 1998 events and leading Palestinians continue to state that the Charter has not yet been amended.

In 2001 the first draft of a constitution authorized by the PLO's Central Committee, calling for a respect for borders, human and civil rights as defined under international law appeared.<18>
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes, your post is horseshit. The PLO Charter has not been ammended
Hamas in Their Own Words


Posted: May 2, 2011




"We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab bloodWe condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We ask God to offer him mercy with the true believers and the martyrs."

(Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in the Gaza Strip commenting on the killing of Osama Bin Laden, May 2, 2011)

"Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.

"The Jews are the most despicable and contemptible nation to crawl upon the face of the Earth, because they have displayed hostility to Allah.

"Allah will kill the Jews in the hell of the world to come, just like they killed the believers in the hell of this world.

"The Jews kill anyone who believes in Allah. They do not want to see any peace whatsoever on Earth."

(Sermon delivered by 'Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV, April 8, 2011, translation by MEMRI).

We cannot agree to a programme that is intended to poison the minds of our childrenHolocaust studies in refugee camps is a contemptible plot and serves the Zionist entity with a goal of creating a reality and telling stories in order to justify acts of slaughter against the Palestinian people."

(Statement from Hamas Ministry of Refugee Affairs on U.N. Relief and Works Agency plan to include Holocaust education in the curriculum taught Palestinian refugees, February 28, 2011)


"The lie of the Zionist Holocaust crumbles with countless holocausts committed by the Zionists in Beit Hanoun, al-Fakhoura school and other places in Palestine."

(Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar, speaking at a memorial service for Palestinians killed during the 2008 Israeli war in Gaza, January 6, 2011)

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I."

(Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper, November 11, 2010)

"We have liberated Gaza, but have we recognized Israel? Have we given up our lands occupied in 1948? We demand the liberation of the West Bank, and the establishment of a state in the West Bank and Gaza, with Jerusalem as its capital but without recognizing . This is the key without recognizing the Israeli enemy on a single inch of land. ...
"Our plan for this stage is to liberate any inch of Palestinian land, and to establish a state on it. Our ultimate plan is Palestine in its entirety. I say this loud and clear so that nobody will accuse me of employing political tactics. We will not recognize the Israeli enemy. "

(Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, Future News TV, June 15, 2010, Source: MEMRI.org)

Hamas "must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists."

(Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar, Al-Aqsa TV, January 4, 2009)

"We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before."

(Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, December 28, 2008)


"This is the time for the third uprising... Resistance will continue through suicide missions."

(Hamas leader-in-exile Khaled Mashaal, Damascus, Syria, December 27, 2008)

"Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood."

(Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, calling for a resumption of suicide attacks on Gaza radio, December 27, 2008)


"Israel will pay a heavy price for its crimes against the Palestinians. Israel's actions enhance our determination to pursue the path of resistance through all means available. committing a holocaust as the whole world watches and doesn't lift a finger to stop it."

(Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, December 25, 2008)


"We won't succumb to the logic of threats made by the Zionist war criminals. Today we are prepared more than ever to foil any aggression against our people."

(Leaflet issued by Izzadin Kassam, the armed wing of Hamas, December 25, 2008)

"It is our right as an occupied people to defend ourselves from the occupation by all means possible including suicide attacks."

(Hamas leader Ayman Taha, December 22, 2008).

(The economic crisis is the result of) "bad administrative and financial management and a bad banking system put into place and controlled by the Jewish lobby."

(The Jewish lobby) "controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy."

(Hamas Spokesman Fawzi Barhum, October 7, 2008; as reported by AFP and other news agencies)

"...the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: 'I kill, therefore I am'... Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids ."

(Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."

(Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path."

(Hamas statement in response to criticism by Al-Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahri, March 12, 2007)

" is an an act of self defense... a natural result of the continued Israeli crimes against our people."

(Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesman, April 17, 2006)

" never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land."

(Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader, February 3, 2006, Al-Hayyat al-Jedida)

" will not change a single word in its covenant ."

(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz)

"They have tried to pressure Hamas to abandon resistance and to abandon arms. They tried to pressure Hamas to abandon its strategic choice in Palestine, all of Palestine. They tried to pressure Hamas to recognize the legitimacy of the occupation. But they failed... We say Hamas will not change its constant principles."

(Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Reuters)

"The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem."

(Ismail Haniyah, Hamas leader, at an election rally in Gaza, January 20, 2006, Gulf Daily News, Bahrain)

"Hamas is not hostile to Jews because they are Jews. We are hostile to them because they occupied our land and expelled our people.... We did not say we want to throw the Jews in the sea or feed them to sharks. We just said that there is a land called occupied Palestine. It was burglarized and it needs to be returned to the Palestinian people."

(Ismail Hanieh, Hamas leader, January 18, 2006, AP)

"We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land.... We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up."

(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, January 17, 2006, Newsday)

"The program sets out the details and means for its implementation over the next four years, while the charter talks about vision and strategyThe movement is adhering to the constants and strategies outlined in the charter."

(Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu-Zuhri, explains to Al-Sharq al-Awsat that there is no contradiction between Hamas' platform for the election and its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, January 13, 2006, BBC Monitoring)

"The Taliban are 1,000 times more honorable than the American occupation and its collaborators We are not a copy of the Taliban... Judge us according to what we are. Everyone must stop blaming the Taliban for things that in fact characterize the people of the West, who seek to turn the international community into a swamp of corruption and destruction, and to spread abomination and disease in the name of absolute freedom...."

"We are part of Allah's promise that Islam will enter Palestine and every home in the world, with a revelation of the power of Allah the Omnipotent, and a revelation of the inferiority of the infidels. Hamas is leading this plan in Gaza, the West Bank, and the 1948 territories, and the Muslim Brotherhood is leading it everywhere else. This is part of Allah's predestination."

(Dr. Mahmoud Zahar, interview in Arabic with elaph.com, October 11, 2005, MEMRI)

"The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land."

(Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas "political" leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI)

"We stand here on our liberated land, near the armistice borders. We remember when Sharon said that Netzarim is like Tel Aviv. Hamas has said, via the lion of Palestine , that Gaza is like Tel Aviv. The promise that has been fulfilled and will be fulfilled in the future, oh Sharon, is the promise of Allah, and the promise of Hamas. Behold, Palestine is being liberated, Allah willing..."

"We have come here in multitudes to proclaim that Hirbiya and Ashkelon will be taken by the mujahideen. We have come here to say that the weapons of the resistance that you see here will remain, Allah willing, so that we can liberate Palestine all of Palestine from the Sea to the River, whether they like it or not."

(Mushir al-Masri, Hamas spokesman, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI)

"We knew that Bush is the enemy of God, the enemy of Islam and Muslims. America declared war against God. Sharon declared war against God, and God declared war against America, Bush and Sharon."

(Hamas leader Dr. Abdel Aziz Rantisi (killed in April 2004) at a rally in Gaza, March 28, 2004, AP)

"The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American Administration, and it must take responsibility for this crime. All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime."

(Hamas statement issued after the assassination of Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Chicago Tribune, March 25, 2004)

"We have never targeted an American target or American interests despite its hostility. Until now we did not. I am talking about now. In the future, God knows."

(Musa Abu Marzuq, Hamas leader, interview with Reuters, March 25, 2004)

"She is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."

(Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, at funeral of Reem Raiyshi, who murdered 4 people, January 15, 2004, AP)

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."

"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side."
(Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post)

"America is implementing Zionist Israeli policy to serve the Zionist project in Palestine. The battle America is undertaking is designed to allow Israel to remain in the Palestinian homeland...."

"Zionist Israeli and Jewish policy is to strike every power emerging in the Arab and Muslim world Any country that develops power threatening to this entity (Israel), they want to smash it."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin (killed in March 2004), January 30, 2003, Teheran Times)

"Suicide attacks and jihad reinforce national unity in the ranks....Our voice is one of struggle, of jihad and of suicide....Iraq could win if it equipped its citizens with explosive belts and turned them into human bombs."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with the Muslim website Alskifa, January 10, 2003, translated by Israel Defense Forces)

"We reject this US domination and this frantic war. From our side, we concentrate on striking blows to it here in Palestine, with the aim of ironing out the Jewish entity in Palestine, which is the cause of trouble in the world..."

"America... always works in favor of the existence of the Israeli entity... This is mainly due to the Zionist-Christian conviction and the 70 million Americans who follow the Protestant creed, which is in favor of Jews against the Muslims. The same applies to most of Britain's population..."

"Because the Israeli and American enemies are ravaging the earth; they do not believe in anything besides power. The Ummah must adopt the principle of Jihad and fighting the enemies."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview with Australian Muslim youth magazine, Nida'ul Islam, June/ July 2002)

"The Movement within two months was able to launch qualitative operations that shook the world there are qualitative Jihad operations such as those in Natanya and Khadera. We are proud of such operations and the next days will witness better and bigger ones...."

"I say that the final battle will result in our victory and that this land will reject this enemy similar to its predecessors..."

"It is not a must that it would be in 2027 for it could be five years earlier or ten years later. The important thing is that the equation revolves round 2027 and the Hebrew state would end Insha'allah ."

(Sheik Ahmed Yassin, interview, Palestine-info, March 2001)
Early Hamas communiqus (distributed by Islamic Association for Palestine)

"Come to jihad, come to jihad, come to martyrdom..."
"Those thirsty for Jihad all over the world. For the sake of Allah. For liberating the land of Palestine and Jerusalem...."


"We declared and continue to declare now, that a Jew is a Jew... to serve their religion and their people."

(Hamas communiqu, March 9, 1989, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

"The Jews: killed the prophetsslaughtered the innocentimprisoned our pious... NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS."

(Hamas communiqu, October 5, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

"The Nazi Jews tried different methods..."
"Let everyone know that Hamas... is only against Jews and those twisted in their manner... it realizes the Jews' methods in trying to cause hostility and friction between people..."
"We should lend punches to the Jews wherever possible ."

(Hamas communiqu, September 8, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine)

http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Hamas is not the PLO, but you knew that.
The best one can say about the PLO charter is that some people refuse to accept the change, for reasons best known to themselves.
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I only have the PLO charter that calls for the destruction of Israel to quote
By deeds and by charter, the PLO still calls for the destruction of Israel.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Then you need to read what I posted, it could widen your horizons. nt
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. You did not post anything relevant, the charter remains the same
It continues to call for the destruction of Israel.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. How do you know if you don't read it? nt
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. There are people on both sides that reject any workable compromise.
And people on both sides that want to settle the dispute.

I consider that the two real opposing sides in the I/P dispute are those two.
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jimmie Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
46. Yes, I can see the desire for peace in those words
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 07:55 AM by jimmie
what a collection of filthy , vile, disgusting quotes.

Yep, no antisemitism there.

Must be some "mistranslation".

Yes, it's obvious they want peace. :eyes:


And no,the PLO charter has not changed.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. It's so nice to see feebleminded propaganda attempts met with good FACTUAL EVIDENCE.
Thank you for the informative post.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. That memorandum of mutual recognition translates the same way in any language...
But maybe you can provide some evidence that the Arabic version says something completely different? It doesn't exist, as if it had, Israel's army of 'supporters' would have been all over it long ago.

And I'm in agreement with the call of horsehit from bemildred. Not only has the PLO rejected the sections of the PLO Charter you refer to, but that rejection was acknowledged by Clinton. Also, the memorandum of mutual recognition carries far more official weight than an out of date Charter.

But if you think Charters and platforms are more important than anything else, then how is it you don't object to the Likud Platform, which calls for a Greater Israel?
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. And, the Official wafa channel indoctrinates children to Jihad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW27_Dypkgo

The PLO charter still calls for the destruction of Israel.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. about your vid posted on youtube by John McCain2006
first off the the channel that televised this program is Hamas affiliated but there are some questions concerning MEMRI's translation

Translation controversy

Several commentators, such as CNN's Arabic department, have claimed that the transcript of the April 13 show (2007) provided by MEMRI contains numerous translation errors and undue emphases.<92> Brian Whitaker, the Middle East editor for the Guardian newspaper (UK), wrote in a blog for the newspaper that in the translation of the video, showing Farfour eliciting political comments from a young girl named Sanabel, the MEMRI transcript misrepresents the segment, by attributing a sentence said by Farfour, ("I'll shoot"), to the child, and ignoring the child's statement ("I'm going to draw a picture").<92>

Whitaker further criticized MEMRI's translation. He and others commented that a statement uttered by the same child, ("We're going to resist"), had been given an unduly aggressive interpretation by MEMRI as ("We want to fight"). Also, where MEMRI translated the girl as saying the highly controversial remark ("We will annihilate the Jews"), Whitaker and others, including Arabic speakers used by CNN, insist that based on careful listening to the low quality video clip, the girl is variously interpreted as saying, "The Jews shoot[] us"<92> or "The Jews are killing us."<93> Other sources have also pointed out that MEMRI's translation "I will commit martyrdom" should more accurately have been "I'll become a martyr" a passive statement rather than an active/aggressive threat.<94>

MEMRI defends their translation of the show, Yigal Carmon, a former Colonel of IDF Intelligence and founder and President of MEMRI declared, "Yes, we stand by the translation by the very words, by the context, by the syntax, and every measure of the translation."<93>

This page was last modified on 19 October 2011 at 02:07.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers

of course though MEMRI we're told is completely unbiased and would never ever mistranslate anything
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. There really are no question concerning the translation
This is the same show that mentioned a mythical place called Tel Al-Rabi that somehow laid somehwere near Tel Aviv is. Whitewashing and erasing the history of the past is a common ploy by arab supremacist groups. For example, there is very little left of the rich greco-buddhist heritage of Afghanistan after Osama Bin Laden, through his Taliban proxies, ordered the destruction of the Giant Buddahs of Bamiyan
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. That has nothing to do with the subject here
but I guess you were itching to get that in huh?
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. An arabculture of hate has everything to do with this newest intifada
As already posted, this is merely one more front in the war to destroy Israel -- indoctrination of the children.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. Yeah, that Arab Culture of Hate is a truly dangerous thing...
Those Arabs, they're a bunch of haters. Whether it's coffee, the price of petrol, the weather, or what's on telly, there they are always being the first to hate on it. I've heard rumours they have a Ministry for the Culture of Hate set up in all capital cities of the world (excluding Jerusalem) and all Arabs are given a quota of hate they have to meet every month and if they fall short they get booted out of the Culture of Hate.

And you forgot to mention that they hate us for our freedom!! ;)
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #45
77. Well, I gather there is good hate and bad hate, see?
If you hate things that are bad, that's good, but also redundant, nobody hates the good. Me, I think all hate, in the sense of rage, anger, is bad, bound to lead you astray. It is OK of course, to have opinions, to like and dislike what you choose, but one ought not freak out about it.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. The PA led religious institutions still preach destruction of Israel...
Edited on Tue Nov-15-11 11:17 AM by shira
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=485

The PA publishes and parades around maps of Palestine replacing all Israel...
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=466
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. And Israeli led rabbis still support the destruction of the Palestinians...
Just one example is Dov Lior's extremist and hateful poison where he's said that captured Palestinians should be used in medical experiments, that it's acceptable to kill non-Jews during wartime, and his very recent labelling of Arabs as 'evil camel riders'. Israel's chief Rabbi referred to him as an 'important Rabbi' when he was briefly arrested for incitement.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4088050,00.ht...

The praise for that hatemonger even came from Israeli MK's:

'Minister of Religious Services Yakov Margi expressed his protest in a conversation with Internal Security Minister Yitzhak Aharonovitch. "He was abducted on his way to Jerusalem as a common criminal," he said. "Police should have found a more respectable more of questioning the rabbi."

National Union chairman MK Yaakov Katz was outraged. "Never has a man of his stature been arrested," he said. "We have called for a protest and the gathering of yeshiva students in the Russian Compound."'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4087844,00.ht...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You're going off topic. My point was that the PA is still dedicated to Israel's destruction...
....despite whatever piece of paper they signed and whatever they state in english.

Your argument for moral equivalency is rather weak. We're comparing state sponsored hate and incitement vs. the mumblings of a whacko leader. All nations have assholes like these guys. The USA has neo-nazi outfits, the Brits have the BNP, etc...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Not at all. My point is that Israeli rabbis behave exactly the way you complain about...
Your argument for moral equivalency is rather weak. We're comparing state sponsored hate and incitement vs. the mumblings of a whacko leader.

No it's not. I posted examples of the support the Israeli govt as well as the Chief Rabbi give to the ugliest and most disgusting people like Dov Lior. I do like how it's apparently only an issue when it comes to Muslims, and when it's any other religious leader supported by the state, they get downgraded to 'mumblings of a whacko leader'.

All nations have assholes like these guys. The USA has neo-nazi outfits, the Brits have the BNP, etc...

If that were the case, then you should stop singling out the Palestinians, because to behave as though they're unique in that way is to engage in demonisation. But the reality is that US and British leaders and in the case of the UK, the leaders of their official religion, do not in any way endorse the extremists you mention....
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Lior was arrested and you're arguing his rantings are state policy the GOI promotes/supports?
Edited on Wed Nov-16-11 12:13 AM by shira
You can't possibly be serious.

Israeli newspapers are also free to criticize this Rabbi's rantings.

In the PA led territories, the PA runs the media (it's not a free press) and pays ministers to preach hate and incitement vs. Israelis as well as the destruction of Israel. The PA actually publishes maps of Palestine replacing all Israel and its leader Abbas is routinely photographed in pictures proudly displaying those maps.

Israel is not making state policy of Lior's rantings and is sending a message that his writings are incitement worthy of jail time. That's to be commended, not twisted around as if the GOI is promoting and cheering on Lior's ramblings. Maybe the UK should arrest Gilad Atzmon and the UN should fire Richard Falk in order to send the same type of message the GOI is sending WRT hate speech and incitement. Israel is way ahead of the UK and UN on this. Compared to Britain and its BNP, at least Israel banned Kach. It's foul to twist this around as though Israel is in the same league with the PA.

Nevertheless, you managed once again to divert attention away ("look over there") from the PA's acts and deeds which prove the PA does not accept Israel's right to exist. If the PA accepted Israel's right to exist, it wouldn't pay hate preachers and direct its own media and other government organs to incite hate vs. Jews and Israel's destruction, and it certainly wouldn't allow its party leader and dictator Abbas to ever be seen in photos laughing it up with maps of Palestine replacing all Israel.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yet again yr not bothering to read what I say. I didn't say anything about policy....
Edited on Wed Nov-16-11 12:20 AM by Violet_Crumble
I strongly suggest you reread this post where I outlined the support of this lunatic by the Chief Rabbi, as well as MKs. Then if you get the urge to hit the reply button, try addressing what I actually said, not what you invent. I really do have to wonder why you single out the Palestinians for special treatment, when similar things happen in Israel. Both should be condemned, imo....

on edit: it just occurred to me that me mentioning similar examples to what you've given is somehow turned by you into saying there's a policy in place. So, can you point me to that bit of Palestinian policy that yr referring to? Or weren't you talking about policy? ;)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Forget policy - try state sponsored. If the GOI were doing what the PA were doing...
Edited on Wed Nov-16-11 03:55 PM by shira
...you'd have an appropriate moral equivalency. A major difference would be that if the GOI were in command of the media, schools, and religious centers, and were preaching non-stop Kahane style hate and incitement, rewarding the Baruch Goldsteins by naming streets and sports stadiums after them, promoting greater Israel and allowing a biblical style Sanhedrin to legislate according to old school Jewish religious law with sacrifices after having taken over the Temple Mount, severely limiting the rights of gays, women, and religious minorities, recruiting children for suicide missions and combat duty, using kids as human shields, running TV programs for kids that incites them to hate all Arabs, etc.......there wouldn't be one supporter of the GOI here from Team Israel.

None of us would have the audacity to claim the GOI is left of center or committed to a 2 state solution.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Team Israel would all agree such a state has no right to exist. Not one of us would support such a disgusting state. I'm certain noone from Team Palestine would either....

The GOI arrested Lior for his incitement. That should count for something as they certainly don't endorse his POV. And that's more, for example, than what the USA and Britain does WRT David Duke or the BNP.

You couldn't be more wrong.

While the GOI arrests Lior, the PA is paying hate preachers to spew anti-Jew bile in Mosques and on TV.
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Sure, but how about if we just *say* that Israel behaves the same way that the PA does
A couple of fake massacres like the Massacre of Jenin, a few useful idiots like Rachel Corrie thrown in for good measure and let's throw in an assisted suicide martyr like Muhamed al Dura who was killed by his own.


Then, then they could be right....see how a bunch of fake events make real terrorism morally equivalent?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. That's the standard response WRT pointing out PA/Hamas misdeeds...
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 07:08 PM by shira
Deflection, making up shit about Israel, running interference for extreme rightwing Palestinian factions, etc...

It's anti-Palestinian to admit the PA/Hamas are bad guys.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. That's an absolutely revolting thing to say...
Fake events? So the killing of people in Jenin never happened?? Rachel Corrie is a fake?? And even more disgusting is the level of hatred that must exist to label the death of an innocent child as 'assisted suicide'. Absolutely and totally revolting...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. A TIME investigation concludes that there was no wanton massacre in Jenin
A TIME investigation concludes that there was no wanton massacre in Jenin, no deliberate slaughter of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers. But the 12 days of fighting took a severe toll on the camp. According to the U.N., 54 Palestinians are confirmed dead. An additional 49 are missing; it is unclear how many of them perished in the fighting and how many either fled or were captured by Israeli troops. In the final count, there may well be fewer dead in Jenin than the 78 killed in Nablus Casbah in a battle that took place at the same time. But it is Jenin that has attracted worldwide attention because of the widespread destruction of property and because some of those who died during the fighting were mere spectators.

Human Rights Watch, which in a published report last week also concluded that no massacre took place, nonetheless documented 22 civilian deaths and said the Israelis used excessive and indiscriminate force during the operation. TIME found that as Israeli soldiers moved from house to house, they sometimes compelled Palestinian civilians to take the dangerous job of leading the approach to the buildings. On the other hand, a senior Palestinian military officer has admitted to TIME that some of those who died were killed by rubble from the exploding booby traps with which Palestinian fighters had honeycombed the camp.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,100240...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. I don't really care what things are called massacres....
I've seen hyperbolic language get applied on both sides of the conflict. My idea of what a massacre is has been that it's a single incident by one person mainly over a short period of time, like the mass-killing at a McDonalds in California or the mass-killing in Port Arthur. To think it wasn't a massacre in those terms doesn't detract from how terrible what happened was, and anyone who claims it's a fake is deluding themselves, imo...

From Human Rights Watch's report that deals with the death that has stuck in my mind all this time:

'The harm from this destruction was aggravated by the inadequate warning given to civilian residents. Although warnings were issued on multiple occasions by the IDF, many civilians only learned of the risk as bulldozers began to crush their houses. Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year-old paralyzed man, was killed when the IDF bulldozed his home on top of him, refusing to allow his relatives the time to remove him from the home. Sixty-five-year-old Muhammad Abu Saba'a had to plead with an IDF bulldozer operator to stop demolishing his home while his family remained inside; when he returned to his half-demolished home, he was shot dead by an Israeli soldier.'

But what made me see red about the post I replied to was the way that poster called the killing of an innocent Palestinian child as 'assisted suicide'. That's offensive on so many levels and I'm disgusted that this isn't the first time that it's been trotted out in this forum. That child didn't want to die, was caught up in something he had no control over, and I don't give a shit what bullet it was that killed him. To claim it's a fake just defies logic, imo...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. You should care. Israel lost 23 soldiers who went house to house in Jenin...
...INTENTIONALLY to avoid civilian casualties (when they could have just as easily attacked from the skies and avoided the losses in personnel). When you don't acknowledge that as part of the story, then it appears all you're interested in doing is demonizing the IDF and Israel.

Now think about this from a pure black and white PR perspective. Let's say Israel's concerned with its image so much it would risk 23 of its soldiers lives. What good did that do? Nothing. So fuck that, Israel won't do it again and will just do their work from the skies and avoid any risk to its soldiers. However, that makes it more dangerous for Palestinian civilians in the future. You should care about that...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. If yr going to insist on following me around replying to my posts, at least read what I say...
What I said about not caring was that I don't care what term is used to describe things, as hyperbolic language is used on both sides, though I'm sure you'd deny it happens when it comes to Israel...

Anyone who tries to say with a straight face that Israel intentionally tries to avoid civilian casualties is either extremely dishonest or being plain silly. And what's really silly is when you get so obsessed with flinging around the 'demonisation' line that you extend it into being that anyone who doesn't agree with yr ignorant and extremely zealoted justification of what Israel does is demonising Israel....

Um, Israel also attacked Jenin from the skies, as well as raiding it. The IDF had an established habit of raiding and had done so to Jenin before.

Indiscriminate Helicopter Fire
Although missiles had been used from the beginning of the incursion, their use became particularly intense in the early morning hours of April 6. Testimony collected by Human Rights Watch indicates that many areas of the refugee camp were fired upon at that time, catching many sleeping civilians unaware. Many of the rockets used were U.S.-made wire-guided TOW missiles. The evidence gathered by Human Rights Watch suggests that many of the TOW missiles indiscriminately hit civilian homes and in at least one case a civilian was killed when she was struck by a helicopter missile. The number of solely civilian objects hit in the helicopter attacks the early morning of April 6 suggests that insufficient care was taken by Israeli forces to target only military objects. Due to the dense urban setting of the refugee camp, fighters and civilians were never at great distances. Nevertheless, such proximity does not provide a valid excuse by Israeli forces' action in firing upon the entire area as if it were a single military target.

Kamal Tawalba, a forty-three-year-old father of fourteen children, offered one of many compelling accounts that showed how IDF tanks and helicopters made little distinction between legitimate military targets and civilian homes. He told Human Rights Watch that he was alone with his family at his home on the morning of Saturday, April 6, and had harbored no Palestinian militants in his home: "There were no fighters in my house. I have fourteen children and would never have taken such a risk." The family was asleep on the bottom floor of their home when a tank shell hit the floor above them, setting the house on fire. He and his family tried to leave, but were prevented from doing so when IDF soldiers shot at them: "I went to the gate and started calling to the IDF soldiers to allow us to go out. I tried to ask for help-I held two children in my arms-but they started shooting at the windows."145 A few minutes later, two TOW-missiles hit the top floor of his home, causing more destruction: "After two minutes, two more missiles came to the house from an Apache helicopter. I can tell the difference because we could see the wires from the Apache helicopter . I took my small baby-there was so much dust-and I went outside without caring about the soldiers. A soldier started shooting at me and told me to put the children down. He took me in the street and told me to take off my clothes."146

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-10.h...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. You should care about the operation being described as a great massacre of innocents...
The intent was the complete opposite, as Israel lost 23 IDF personnel going house to house looking for terrorists.

That's extremely risky and practically unheard of in modern times from western democracies in combat. Instead of taking that into consideration, the demonizers portray it as yet another in a long line of evil acts by the IDF and Israel.

You should worry about that leading the IDF to conclude there's no point risking that many IDF lives again and that it would be safer to carry out military OPs exclusively from the skies where it's safer, like NATO does. That would lead to more Palestinian civilian casualties.

You should care.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Sorry to dissapoint, but I don't care what labels get used...
Nor do I care that you label everything and everyone who doesn't share yr dewey eyed and misplaced faith that Israel goes out of its way not to harm civilians as demonisers. Hell, did you even bother reading what I posted from HRW about that so-called concern for civilians in Jenin? It looks as though you opted to ignore it and just trill away some more with exactly the same nonsense as before...

What I do care about is that for someone so fixated on labels, you've shown absolutely no concern at all when the killing of a small child was labelled 'assisted suicide'. It's a safe bet if it'd been an Israeli child described in such an ugly way you would have been filling the forum with hundreds of outraged posts. But because it's only a Palestinian child, there's complete silence from you...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. Exactly. You don't care that Israel is demonized and portrayed as pure evil...
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 07:54 AM by shira
You participate in that demonization.

The problem is that demonization leads to hatred vs. individual Jews and gives opponents of 2 states more ammunition in order to delegitimize Israel. You should be against both.

As for HRW, I don't give a fuck what they allege. I've posted enough here that discredits anything they have to say, like employing a Nazi sympathizer, to participating in outright antisemitism at Durban 1 in 2001, etc.

As for al-Dura, the original documentary tape from a decade ago suggests he was never killed and that the entire episode was staged.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. Yet again yr making up completely untrue bullshit...
Either that or you can't comprehend simple sentences. What I said was I don't care what labels get used in cases like Jenin, as there's a tendency for hyperbole on both sides, and what happened in Jenin was terrible regardless of what it's called. I didn't say any of that crap you claimed I did...

Yes, we're all aware that just about any criticism of Israel is labelled by you as demonisation, but what I find amusing is the way you repeatedly insist people must agree with yr rather extreme and bizarre views lest they be followed around and called a demoniser. Yr just going to have to deal with the fact that people have every right to criticise Israel for the occupation and its treatment of the Palestinians coz I'm sure as hell not going to stop...

Sorry, I forgot. HRW are demonising haters of Israel. Now if a nice reliable source like pajamasmedia or Arutz Sheva published a report on Jenin, that'd be good as gold...

As for al-Dura, the original documentary tape from a decade ago suggests he was never killed.

Should have known you'd willingly embrace ugly conspiracy theory crap. Revolting...


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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. It's not bullshit. You don't care what labels (massacre) get used by the MSM...
...the UN, or major NGOs. We're not talking just about nutters who labeled Jenin a massacre, but responsible media, the UN, academics, and NGOs.

That's hateful demonization.

Now do you care?

======

As for al-Dura, the video posted above suggests he was never killed as the last scene - in which he is supposed to be dead - shows there was no blood and that the kid was still alive. These staged scenes are routine. Here's a fake funeral procession WRT Jenin...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRz5WnHemkw

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Yes, it was totally dishonest bullshit...
Let me remind you of the totally dishonest accusation you made: 'You don't care that Israel is demonized and portrayed as pure evil...' What utter and absolute bullshit.

We're not talking just about nutters who labeled Jenin a massacre

That's strange. Because that's just what I was talking about with another poster before you blundered along...

As for al-Dura, the video posted above suggests he was never killed as the last scene - in which he is supposed to be dead

Conspiracy theorists such as those who invent and embrace crap like that are fucking mindless morons who are so out of touch with reality and so lacking in even the most basic of logic skills that they'd be funny if they weren't so pathetic and sometimes so ugly and full of hate. I actually find views such as yrs even more revolting than those who call his killing assisted suicide...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. The media, academics, UN, and NGOs all partook in a demonizing lie...
...WRT Jenin. I don't have any reason to believe that you care one bit about that, so I did not accuse you of some bullshit lie.

The same is true of al-Dura, as a French court in 2010 ruled. You must think that French court was taken in by "fucking mindless morons so out of touch with reality...".
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. No, they didn't. Yr the only one engaging in such things...
As I've said many times already, it doesn't matter if what happened in Jenin was what I'd consider to be a massacre or not (and remember that the term massacre is a subjective one and has been used to describe things that happen to Israelis as well). So it's neither demonising nor a lie to disagree with yr opinion on things...

The same is true of al-Dura, as a French court in 2010 ruled. You must think that French court was taken in by "fucking mindless morons so out of touch with reality...".

As usual, you've got no clue what I think, and as always you get it totally wrong. The French court didn't rule that he hadn't been killed. That's the sole preserve of fucking ugly hatemongers...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Obviously you don't read what I write...
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 08:39 AM by shira
To use your words. :)

I never argued the French court ruled al-Dura never died. Video evidence of the original documentary shows that. I wrote that the French court upheld the claim that al-Dura was staged, demonizing bullshit (defamatory and not objective). Not that you have a problem with that.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. I read just fine. You, otoh, don't bother reading and struggle to communicate clearly...
See, you very much did argue that the French court ruled that al-Dura never died. Let's refresh yr memory...

A few posts back, this exchange happened:

Shira - As for al-Dura, the video posted above suggests he was never killed as the last scene - in which he is supposed to be dead

Me - Conspiracy theorists such as those who invent and embrace crap like that are fucking mindless morons who are so out of touch with reality and so lacking in even the most basic of logic skills that they'd be funny if they weren't so pathetic and sometimes so ugly and full of hate. I actually find views such as yrs even more revolting than those who call his killing assisted suicide...

You - The same is true of al-Dura, as a French court in 2010 ruled. You must think that French court was taken in by "fucking mindless morons so out of touch with reality...".

Someone who wasn't trying to put up some insane claim that the French court ruled that the boy isn't actually dead wouldn't have made out that the French court agreed with the ugly and hateful conspiracy theorists who believe he's still alive and just trying to make Israel look bad...

No, can't say I've got any problem at all with the hurt feelings of those who label just about any criticism of Israel as demonisation. The pure rage of those sorts isn't very becoming and as is quite clear by some of the 'exchanges' here, rage and thinking with a clear mind don't go hand in hand.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. No, you really don't. And now you're lying about me saying a French court...
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 06:34 PM by shira
...confirmed or ruled that al-Dura never died. The quotes you cut and pieced together say no such thing.

But I've come to expect this as it's your modus operandi when it comes to all things I/P. Make up shit and hope to hell no one catches you in your contradictions and half-truths. If that happens - and it has plenty of times - turn it around and shoot the messenger with half cocked and stupid moral equivalencies. Same shit, different day.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. My reading ability is just fine. Yr reading comprehension and communication on the other hand...
No lying at all when yr exact words are right there for everyone to see...

Here it is again:

Shira - As for al-Dura, the video posted above suggests he was never killed as the last scene - in which he is supposed to be dead

Me - Conspiracy theorists such as those who invent and embrace crap like that are fucking mindless morons who are so out of touch with reality and so lacking in even the most basic of logic skills that they'd be funny if they weren't so pathetic and sometimes so ugly and full of hate. I actually find views such as yrs even more revolting than those who call his killing assisted suicide...

You - The same is true of al-Dura, as a French court in 2010 ruled. You must think that French court was taken in by "fucking mindless morons so out of touch with reality...".

Someone who wasn't trying to put up some insane claim that the French court ruled that the boy isn't actually dead wouldn't have made out that the French court agreed with the ugly and hateful conspiracy theorists who believe he's still alive and just trying to make Israel look bad...

If you actually meant to say something other than what you said, you could forgo the idiotic personal attacks and focus on trying to explain in some sort of coherent manner what you meant to say. Then I could sit here and dish a bit back at you of what yr fond of handing out and announce that even though you said it, you actually mean something completely different.

Oh, and try to cut back a bit on the nonsense where you take yr own nasty habits when yr called out and them and try to throw them back in a lame 'so do you!' game. See, I've got an interest in this conflict that doesn't make room for childish and one-dimension *good* vs *evil* nonsense. Anyone who views the conflict through that sort of prism is being sophomoric and ignoring the complexity of the conflict. Rational folk recognise that there's blame on both sides (and with external parties as well) and getting all angry and upset when the side you cheer for cops some well-earned criticism isn't healthy, nor is it ever going to lead to anything but hatefulness, intolerance and more rage...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
87. Well I do think there are others who seize on this terminology
I think it is at least worth getting the real story out there for those who do see it in very black and white (and often inaccurate) ways.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. You can't stop with the demonizations and half-truths, can you?
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 06:18 AM by shira
So the killing of people in Jenin never happened?? Rachel Corrie is a fake?? And even more disgusting is the level of hatred that must exist to label the death of an innocent child as 'assisted suicide'. Absolutely and totally revolting...

The story was that evil Israel just went into Jenin and massacred hundreds. Or to put it more mildly, just went in and killed people.

WRT Rachel Corrie, the story was that Israel deliberately killed her.

Same with Muhammad al-Dura, despite video evidence the scene was staged.

======

All demonizations based on half-truths.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Bullshit, You've got to stop describing yr own posting style and attributing it to others...
The story was nothing of the sort. The story is exactly as it was stated in the HRW report I read. According to you, anything that doesn't paint Israel in a bright and shiny light with a fucking halo on its head gets the repetitive and overdone squawk of 'demonisation! demonisation! you hate Israel! demonisation!'

There's a possibility that Rachel Corrie was deliberately run over. I don't share yr poutrage about people thinking it's possible, though my belief has always been that the driver knew she was there and showed blatant disregard for human life in what he did.

As for Muhammad al-Dura, go peddle those idiotic and hateful conspiracy theories somewhere else. The reality is that a child was killed and anyone who refers to his death as 'assisted suicide' is engaging in sheer ugliness and hatred, and any liberal or progressive should be as appalled as I am, not rushing to throw in claims his death was staged.

You really need to stop the demonisation you rail so much about. If you think half-truths and lies are demonisations when it comes to Israel, then if you don't think the same way when it comes to Palestinians, I really have to wonder what's driving that sort of mindset...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. And there you go diverting attention away from yourself by attacking others for views...
...they don't have. I criticize (apparently you want that stifled) but I don't tell half truths or attempt to make Palestinians appear worse than they are, I don't demonize. You do that WRT Israel, the IDF, and Israeli citizens. That basically sums up your participation here in DU/IP.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. You really do like talking about me, don't you? Me, I like talking about the I/P conflict...
But may I commend you on such a stirring rebuttal to the points I made about concerning the three episodes that were being talked about. Especially stirring was the way you expressed yr revulsion over the death of an innocent child being called 'assisted suicide'. ;)

Are you so totally unaware of yr longrunning and endless habit of accusing everything but the kitchen sink of demonising Israel that you don't see when you get given just a small dose of yr own medicine? You don't like it being done to you? Tough shit. Get back to me when you stop doing it to so many people in this forum...

Given that you've displayed an amazing knack of not reading what I have to say and over a long period of time deliberately misrepresenting my views, I'm not the least bit surprised that you don't have a clue when it comes to my participation in this forum. I was here a long time before you turned up to fill the forum with white noise and impotent fury, and if someone so sensitive that they view voicing opposition to the Occupation as demonising Israel wants to call my legitimate criticism of Israel for the occupation demonisation, then I say go for it!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. The rebuttal to those points is that while each episode is tragic, there are those who hate Israel
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 07:18 AM by shira
...so much that they cannot help but to assign Israel the worst motives and intentions WRT each event. Instead of criticism, they resort to demonization in order to make Israel out to be pure evil. That's wrong, Violet. You do know that, right?

WRT Muhammad al-Dura, video evidence shows the scene was staged.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzsCBFhCsyY

I'm certain you won't watch that and you could care less. That's for anyone else following this thread. The whole episode was so phony that in 2010, a decade later, a French court ripped the original documentary...
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/06/13/2739588/fren...

The point is the al-Dura documentary is pure demonization. You don't appear to have any problem with that...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. So fucking what? There's also people who hate Palestinians the same way...
That doesn't mean that incidents such as the three being discussed should be discarded as being fake...

No, after making the mistake of clicking on one of yr YouTube links and finding it leading to a channel with a bigoted and Islamophobic name, I don't waste my time on yr YouTube links anymore....

Here's the reality that conspiracy nutters like to pretend to ignore. That child was killed in the crossfire from a gunfight. The image of his father trying to shield him is distressing to all but the most zealoted folk out there. That people exist who are so ugly and full of hate that they'd pretend either he wasn't really killed or that his killing was 'assisted suicide' no longer comes as much of a surprise to me at all...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. Misrepresenting those episodes in order to portray Israel as pure evil is wrong...
It appears you disagree and don't have a problem with demonization.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. Ah, so anyone who doesn't see things yr way is portraying Israel as pure evil?
Gotcha. Of course incidents that get misrepresented by Israel wouldn't be done in order to portray Palestine as pure evil, right? See, apart from the sheer lunacy of insisting that anyone who doesn't agree with yr conspiracy theory crap about that boy who was killed is trying to portray Israel as pure evil, it's really quite stupid to claim that anyone who thinks Rachel Corrie was deliberately run over, or who calls the destruction in Jenin a massacre is doing so in order to portray Israel as pure evil.

It appears that as usual you have absolutely no clue as to what I think or believe, and don't care, because having to deal with anything but the mirror image of yr own views is too much like hard work...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. Jenin wasn't a massacre as the major Media, the UN, academics, and NGOs reported...
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 08:22 AM by shira
These are supposed to be reliable, respected sources that should be trusted - not PRESSTV or nutjob conspiracy bloggers.

Same WRT al-Dura, which was staged - as a French court in 2010 ruled (are they fucking mindless morons?)

You should have a problem with such demonization because there are many people who STILL believe that horseshit. WRT al-Dura, the lie persisted for a decade until the French ruling. Al-Dura was used as a rallying cry for the 2nd Intifada and led to countless innocents being killed.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. What isn't sinking in about what I've been saying?
I don't care if the definition of massacre that I use is different than that of others, especially when it comes to something that happens in a conflict where BOTH sides engage in hyperbole. I think I may have said that more than a few times now...

Same WRT al-Dura, which was staged - as a French court in 2010 realized.

What a fucking load of horseshit that is. No French court has said that he isn't dead. Only nutters run with that ugly and meanspirited crap....

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. You're arguing definition of massacre now. Fucking pathetic...
Why don't you look that one up yourself, maybe confirm that it definitely suggests an indiscriminate, deliberate, brutal slaughter of people. Major respected media, NGOs, academics, and the UN all used that language - and quite deliberately so. There's no excusing that kind of irrational hate, Violet.

And I didn't claim a French court ruled al-Dura never died. So your fucking load of horseshit claim is nothing but a fucking load of horseshit.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. I don't recall arguing the definition at all, mainly coz I don't give a fuck how you define it...
As I said, the term 'massacre' is subjective, and I'm quite content with my own personal definition for it.

Really, it's just a bit on the insane side to insist that if someone uses a term you don't approve of or engages in hyperbole, they're lying and full of irrational hate. You've engaged in a fair bit of hyperbole and misused terms yrself so using yr logic that means you must be lying and full of irrational hate towards Palestinians. Unless there's some rule that only applies when it comes to Israel but not anyone else, and that would be singling Israel out for special treatment and antisemitic...

What happened in Jenin was terrible and there's no whitewashing that. I posted a link further up to the HRW report about it, but instead of explaining what parts of the report were wrong and why, you merely embarked on a shoot the messenger harangue against HRW. If you really think that the report is flawed, you should really point to the examples you see and try to coherently explain why...

btw, using the word 'horsehit' twice in the one sentence is stylistically very clumsy. A bit less anger and a bit more of an attempt to communicate yr thoughts clearly would probably go a long way to improving things...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. Right. 'Massacre' is subjective & of course yr content w/ yr own personal definition of it.
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 07:24 PM by shira
:rofl:

'Nuff said.

Yr a legend in yr own mind. If Violet says so, that's it! Fuck the dictionary!

Reminds me of our debate on the Geneva people claiming Olmert's 2008 offer was similar. Despite what the Geneva Initiative people themselves said - who know what the hell the Geneva accord is all about - you went with your own view and argued the 2 offers were nothing alike. Who the hell are those Geneva Initiative folks to say Olmert's offer was similar? Violet knows better! Fuck those twits!

:eyes:

Megalomania is a psycho-pathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. 'Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs'.<1>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalomania
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. At least you got that bit right. Not sure why you have such a problem with my personal definition...
Care to explain minus the moronic insults and silly emoticons? What is it about the personal definition I used that offends you so badly? You don't seem to grasp the obvious that unlike the term 'genocide', terms like 'massacre' don't have any legal definition. Definitions vary from dictionary to dictionary and it really is a sign of megalomania that yr sitting there demanding I agree with you on what you want the definition to be.

I've got no idea what the hell yr babbling on about with the rest of yr post, but given everything else you say about me is such a fucking lie, I wouldn't expect yr dishonesty to do anything else but recreate a fictional version of events...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #85
88. Your personal definition is just a way for you to ignore the fact that Israel was deliberately...
..demonized, just as it was with all the faux evidence WRT the Goldstone Report (later retracted by Goldstone himself), the Marmara incident, and Muhammad al-Dura. All portrayed as deliberate acts of malice or intentional slaughter of innocents. If you think your definition of massacre could mean something less egregious, the burden is on you to find at least one example in which the term massacre was used to describe killing of civilians that was not deliberate or intentional murder.

If you can't do that, you have nothing.

WRT a similar episode, you once argued Olmert's 2008 offer was not similar or almost identical to the Geneva Accord despite what the Geneva Initiative people themselves claim. Why should anyone take you seriously over the framers of the Geneva Accord? Likewise, why should anyone accept your personal definition of massacre when you have no justification for it?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. No, mainly because yr *facts* are nothing more than yr opinions...
They're merely yr personal opinions, but for some strange reason you demand that everyone agree with yr opinions, and if they don't you start trotting out lines like 'is just a way for you ignore the fact...'. Again you've not bothered to explain what it is about my personal definition of massacre that so offends you. When someone rational looks at mine and then yrs, they'd find it easier to call what happened in Jenin a massacre, while using mine they can't. But what I've said to you before is that something doesn't need to be called a massacre to be something terrible and brutal, which is what happened in Jenin....

I've got no idea what the hell yr babbling on about with the rest of yr post, but given everything else you say about me is such a fucking lie, I wouldn't expect yr dishonesty to do anything else but recreate a fictional version of events...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Which other people, who make up their own personal definitions in defiance of the dictionary, do you
....respect or find credible?

Your personal definition of massacre doesn't match any definition in any dictionary anywhere. THAT's the problem I or anyone rational has with your own personal definitions.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. The forest seems to have been lost for the trees...
I don't think yr even aware that yr now arguing for me to use a definition of massacre where it can easily be argued that what happened in Jenin was a massacre. Oh well, I'll run with it. Not being sure what 'The Dictionary' is, and being aware that definitions between all dictionaries do differ, I turned to my trust Oxford and discovered that the definition for massacre was: 'n1. a general slaughter of persons, occasionally of animals 2. an utter defeat or destruction v 1. make a massacre of 2. murder (esp a large number of people) cruelly or violently.'

That combined with how you defined 'massacre' has made me realise I was incorrect in not agreeing that there was a massacre in Jenin. Thanks for sorting me out on that! ;)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. No, it wasn't a massacre. The UN admitted as much but keep on with the demonization...
Good try.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #97
99. Using my definition it wasn't. Using yrs it is...
So to sum up, you've been haranguing me because of the definition I used, which I stated more than a few times meant that I thought Jenin couldn't be called a massacre. Now I've bowed to yr will and decided to use yrs and label it a massacre, according to you I'm keeping up with the demonisation. I've got no idea how the sort of logic you used there works. How exactly am I keeping anything up when I changed my mind only a post ago thanks to you?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #99
102. Your definition still suggests slaughter and murder, meaning deliberate/intentional.
No different than any other definition of 'massacre'.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. And running down disabled people with bulldozers isn't intentional?
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 04:41 AM by Violet_Crumble
Y'know, if someone steps into a room and randomly opens fire and isn't aiming for anyone in particular, that's still a slaughter or a massacre. And in the case of the IDF in Jenin, they destroyed with no regard for the civilians that were there. Is it somehow not such a bad thing if they just didn't care? Of course it isn't.

Gosh, now yr fine with my definition all of a sudden, after getting so rage-filled about it over the course of many posts? I wish you'd make up yr mind and stick to it! ;)

on edit: for anyone else who has an interest in what happened in Jenin and have read this far through the outraged 'NOT A MASSACRE! NOT A MASSACRE!' posts, I think you should be rewarded for yr patience with a link to the Amnesty International report on what happened in Jenin. Regardless of what it's called, it was brutal and terrible, and should not be overlooked in favour of attempts to minimise what happened there...

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/143/2002/...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. How do you know the INTENT of the IDF in Jenin was to deliberately murder citizens? n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #105
108. Well, I asked you whether it was or not.
But feel free to continue to ignore everything I say :)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. Of course the intent of the IDF wasn't to slaughter/murder out of malice...
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 06:20 AM by shira
The whole point of sending the IDF house to house was to limit casualties. The final body count and ratio of civilians to terrorists killed, as well as IDF casualties in the process, shows the IDF tried very hard to distinguish b/w civilians and combatants.

So it wasn't a massacre, slaughter, or deliberate murder.

That's demonization and you seem more than happy to portray Israel and the IDF in Jenin as cruel murderers rather than a legit military operation intended to stop terror against Israeli citizens.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. Ah, so now the Dictionary Definition isn't good enough for you...
Suddenly yr dropping words like 'malice' into it, which isn't in The Dictionary Definition. Here's a reminder of what my dictionary says: 'n1. a general slaughter of persons, occasionally of animals 2. an utter defeat or destruction v 1. make a massacre of 2. murder (esp a large number of people) cruelly or violently.'. Sorry, but yr demonising Israel by creating new definitions of words to suit yrself!

As for the IDF going house to house, if they had in fact done that (which they didn't), it would make what happened even more horrific, because in that case the IDF clearly targetted homes they already knew only housed civilians:

'he presence of armed Palestinian militants inside Jenin refugee camp, and the preparations made by those armed Palestinian militants in anticipation of the IDF incursion, does not detract from the IDF's obligation under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid harm to civilians. Israel also has a legal duty to ensure that its attacks on legitimate military targets did not cause disproportionate harm to civilians. Unfortunately, these obligations were not met. Human Rights Watch's research demonstrates that, during their incursion into the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes.

Due to the dense urban setting of the refugee camp, fighters and civilians were never at great distances. Civilian residents of the camp described days of sustained missile fire from helicopters hitting their houses. Some residents were forced to flee from house to house seeking shelter, while others were trapped by the fighting, unable to escape to safety, and were threatened by a curfew that the IDF enforced with lethal force, using sniper fire. Human Rights Watch documented instances in which soldiers converted civilian houses into military positions, and confined the inhabitants to a single room. In other instances, civilians who attempted to flee were expressly told by IDF soldiers that they should return to their homes.

Despite these close quarters, the IDF had a legal duty to distinguish civilians from military targets. At times, however, IDF military attacks were indiscriminate, failing to make this distinction. Firing was particularly indiscriminate on the morning of April 6, when missiles were launched from helicopters, catching many sleeping civilians unaware. One woman was killed by helicopter fire during that attack; a four-year-old child in another part of the town was injured when a missile hit the house where she was sleeping. Both were buildings housing only civilians, with no fighters in the immediate vicinity.

The IDF used armored bulldozers to demolish residents' homes. The apparent purpose was to clear paths through Jenin's narrow and winding alleys to enable their tanks and other heavy weaponry to penetrate the camp interior, particularly since some of these had evidently been booby-trapped. However, particularly in the Hawashin district, the destruction extended well beyond any conceivable purpose of gaining access to fighters, and was vastly disproportionate to the military objectives pursued. The damage to Jenin camp by missile and tank fire and bulldozer destruction has shocked many observers. At least 140 buildings-most of them multi-family dwellings-were completely destroyed in the camp, and severe damage caused to more than 200 others has rendered them uninhabitable or unsafe. An estimated 4,000 people, more than a quarter of the population of the camp, were rendered homeless because of this destruction. Serious damage was also done to the water, sewage and electrical infrastructure of the camp. More than one hundred of the 140 completely destroyed buildings were in Hawashin district. In contrast to other parts of the camp where bulldozers were used to widen streets, the IDF razed the entire Hawashin district, where on April 9 thirteen IDF soldiers were killed in an ambush by Palestinian militants. Establishing whether this extensive destruction so exceeded military necessity as to constitute wanton destruction-or a war crime-should be one of the highest priorities for the United Nations fact-finding mission.

The harm from this destruction was aggravated by the inadequate warning given to civilian residents. Although warnings were issued on multiple occasions by the IDF, many civilians only learned of the risk as bulldozers began to crush their houses. Jamal Fayid, a thirty-seven-year-old paralyzed man, was killed when the IDF bulldozed his home on top of him, refusing to allow his relatives the time to remove him from the home. Sixty-five-year-old Muhammad Abu Saba`a had to plead with an IDF bulldozer operator to stop demolishing his home while his family remained inside; when he returned to his half-demolished home, he was shot dead by an Israeli soldier.'

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-01.h...

If pointing out that innocent civilians were put in danger through sheer lack of concern, and that some were even killed (eg the disabled man crushed by a bulldozer that yr intent on ignoring) is demonisation, then bring it on!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #111
114. I'm using the dictionary. You're not. n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. Since when has the Oxford not been a dictionary?
Even though I've posted it several times now, I'll post the definition again. Nowhere does it contain the word 'malice', which you added yrself:

'n1. a general slaughter of persons, occasionally of animals 2. an utter defeat or destruction v 1. make a massacre of 2. murder (esp a large number of people) cruelly or violently.'.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. The definition you're using doesn't support your personal def'n of massacre. n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. I'm more than happy with the definition I'm using. You, on the other hand, are making up yr own...
Nowhere in the dictionary definition I used is the word 'malice' mentioned.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. Bwah!
:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #73
89. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. Things that are state-sponsored are policy...
So seeing as how you falsely claimed it was policy, let's not just conveniently forget policy once you've realised you've blundered yet again...

It doesn't matter how many times you get given examples of extremist bigotry in Israel, and shown that it's condoned by the Chief Rabbi, you excuse it by using the 'Look! Over There! Let's only worry about it when Arabs are doing it!' routine.

there wouldn't be one supporter of the GOI here from Team Israel.

None of us would have the audacity to claim the GOI is left of center or committed to a 2 state solution.


You obviously don't read posts in this forum, as not only does one recent arrival not only support the GOI, but I distinctly recall you claiming the GOI was committed to a two state solution...

In fact, I'm pretty sure Team Israel would all agree such a state has no right to exist. Not one of us would support such a disgusting state.

I'm pretty sure that while you think yr part of some 'team' that all think exactly the same way, you've got no idea as to what anyone else thinks. So, as I've suggested to you many times in the past, you should stick to talking about what you believe, not taking it upon yrself to make up stories about what others believe. As to whether folk who consider themselves 'supporters' of Israel oppose the existence of a Palestinian state, it's clear from what I've read in this forum that some do and some don't. While yr clumsy and ugly stereotyping of Palestinians was an attempt to try to justify yr opposition to a Palestinian state, yr one-dimensional and orgasmic positive stereotyping of all things Israel fails for the same reasons as the former do - you blissfully ignore anything that doesn't fit into the cartoon-style Good vs Evil view of the conflict that's held. The GOI don't control the media or the schools? Bullshit. Yr either not aware of military censorship in Israel, nor of the fact that the GOI does control education in Israel, or as usual you just choose to ignore what doesn't suit yr agenda...

The GOI arrested Lior for his incitement. That should count for something as they certainly don't endorse his POV.

He was released due to the pressure of the extreme right and the Chief Rabbi of Israel after all of about five minutes. I guess that should count for all of about five minutes or so...

While the GOI arrests Lior, the PA is paying hate preachers to spew anti-Jew bile in Mosques and on TV.

And Israel pays the wage of the Chief Rabbi, who claims Lior is an influential man who shouldn't be arrested. I guess when it boils down to it the only difference for some is that it's a whole different story when those doing it are Arabs, not Jews...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #48
57. Your moral equivalencies are pathetic and only serve to run interference for Hamas and the PLO...
...for the evil they do to both their own people and the citizens of Israel. Since you cannot deal with facts that prove Hamas and the PLO are horrendous organizations, you try to distract and divert by making ridiculous moral equivalencies (and then claim there's a double standard in place). It's no wonder card carrying members of the center left write articles in the HuffPo about how liberal Israel is. When they see folks like yourself comparing Israel to Hamas and the PLO, they feel they have to write articles like that in response to such nonsense.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. Yep, that's me. An agent of Hamas!
I mean, how dare I point out the obvious fact that Israel has its own homegrown bigots and extremists who are in some cases supported by the GOI? It takes an irrational hatred of Israel to even mention that! ;)

I think I've mentioned this several times before now, but yr rather silly and very one-sided opinions aren't facts, and if they were, the world would be a sadder place for it.

While I'm flattered that you think some guy would write an article at HuffPo based on anything I have to say here, this forum doesn't grab the interest of all but a few people....

but yeah, you caught me out yet again, Shira. I hate Israel so much I never have a good word to say about it and flat out refused to give you any examples when you asked. Not like you who rushed with eagerness to supply a long and detailed list of positive things about the Palestinians! ;)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. There's no moral equivalence between a self-critical, free democracy and a dictatorship...
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 07:09 PM by shira
Most of your post is drek, but...

Not like you who rushed with eagerness to supply a long and detailed list of positive things about the Palestinians!

Aww, you're still trying to pretend I demonize Palestinians, not that I distinguish between them and their insanely rabid hateful warmongering leadership. As if I have a problem with Muslims or Arabs, and not Islamists.

Keep trying, sweetie.

I see nothing good about a Palestine run by Hamas and the PLO. They're as rightwing and evil as it gets. If you can supply anything liberal/progressive about a Palestine run by such horrendous assholes like Hamas and the PLO, be my guest. I'm still waiting.

See, you can't expect me to list off positive progressive values when you're incapable of doing so yourself. I can't figure out how you rationalize supporting a state of Palestine that cannot be described as progressive, liberal, or "Leftist" in any good way.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. Go and tell that to someone who argued that...
I distinctly recall pointing out that Israel has its own religious extremists who are condoned or on the payroll of the government. I didn't realise that Israel being a democracy gave it a pass and anyone who dares to bring it up would be met with howls of rage-filled outrage from you. I'm guessing the intense rage comes from having the hypocrisy of not showing any concern for extremism on the Israeli side of things pointed out.

Aww, you're still trying to pretend I demonize Palestinians, not that I distinguish between them and their insanely rabid hateful warmongering leadership.

No need to pretend. Yr posts ooze of it. And I'm more than aware that you don't distinguish between the people and their leadership, which you constantly froth at the mouth about by using terms that fit the current Israeli government just as well...

I see nothing good about a Palestine run by Hamas and the PLO. They're as rightwing and evil as it gets.

Yr concept of what's Left and Right is some simplistic thing where if you agree with it, it's Left, and if it's Arab or you don't agree with it, it's Right.

See, you can't expect me to list off positive progressive values when you're incapable of doing so yourself.

Try to keep track of what the discussion was. I asked you if there was anything positive at all you could say about Palestine, and predicted that you wouldn't do it. And I was right. It was quite a few posts later that you grudgingly uttered the two words 'health care', and then went on to demand I play some moronic game of yrs which I've made very clear I'm not interested in playing. Wait all you like, but I don't indulge the silly games of someone as dishonest as you are, especially when you constantly lie about my views on the conflict the way you do and go so far as to argue with 'supporters' of Israel who unlike you do read what I say and comprehend it when they point out that the view I say I have is the one I actually have....
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Israel's chief Rabbi doesn't hold to the same opinions as Lior, now does he?
Edited on Mon Dec-05-11 01:13 PM by shira
He's just arguing Lior shouldn't have been arrested. Most people in the USA would argue David Duke shouldn't be arrested for his incitement, but that doesn't mean they're bigots or on the US payroll sharing the same views as Duke. When you find the GOI paying bigots who incite violence, let me know. But speaking of incitement, when you support the nutjobs of the ISM, you're supporting loonies who believe resistance (terror) is legitimate. When you have no issue with the way in which Israel is demonized (the bogus Jenin massacre, bogus deliberate murder during OCL, bogus indiscriminate slaughter on the Marmara, intentional murder of Muhammad al Dura) and those things lead to antisemitism and Jewish deaths, are you not supporting incitement against Jews?

No need to pretend. Yr posts ooze of it. And I'm more than aware that you don't distinguish between the people and their leadership, which you constantly froth at the mouth about by using terms that fit the current Israeli government just as well...

Where do I demonize anyone? Unlike yourself, I know the difference between mere criticism and demonization. Hamas and the PLO are so horribly rightwing, it's easy to just criticize with facts without making anything up, without any hyperbole. When I bring up statistics about Palestinian views from PEW or Palestinian polling firms, how is that demonization?

Yr concept of what's Left and Right is some simplistic thing where if you agree with it, it's Left, and if it's Arab or you don't agree with it, it's Right.

Really now? If that's so, you should have no trouble explaining what's Leftwing about Palestinian society under Hamas or PLO rule.

Try to keep track of what the discussion was. I asked you if there was anything positive at all you could say about Palestine, and predicted that you wouldn't do it. And I was right.

I told you earlier if you could bring up positive things to say about Palestine under Hamas/PLO rule - anything liberal or progressive - I'd have no problem agreeing with you. I just can't think of anything. That doesn't mean I'm bigoted. It means Palestine under Hamas/PLO rule is very hard Rightwing and there's nothing liberal/progressive about it. I challenge you to prove otherwise.



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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. No, he wasn't merely arguing he shouldn't be arrested...
From the article I posted earlier on:

Earlier, Israel's chief rabbis Yona Metzger and Shlomo Amar issued a joint statement Monday condemning the arrest of Kiryat Arba Rabbi Dov Lior.

"We regret the grave offence to an important rabbi's honor. He is one of Israel's greatest rabbis and leaders of the religious public," the statement said. The two also noted that they conveyed their protest to public leaders.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4088050,00.ht...

These guys are on Israel's payroll. And according to them a raving bigot like Lior is 'one of Israel's greatest rabbis'. Either they don't care about the extremely bigoted and hateful crap he comes out with, or they agree with it...

You've had it explained to you many times now how yr posts demonise the Palestinians. I guess I could just continue to copy and paste it if yr going to continue to pretend you've never seen it...

Speaking of pretending not to see something, I've also explained to you more than a few times why I'm not playing the silly game you want me to play. Why you ignore it and keep on demanding I do it is a bit weird...

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. But where do you find these Rabbis endorsing Lior's view? Or not caring?
Edited on Mon Dec-05-11 03:19 PM by shira
Another alternative is they do care but don't wish to criticize him publicly. They're not supporting his views or denying his incitement.

OTOH that's exactly what you do WRT the ISM and incitement vs. Jews, as I wrote in the previous post that you ignored...

But speaking of incitement, when you support the nutjobs of the ISM, you're supporting loonies who believe resistance (terror) is legitimate. When you have no issue with the way in which Israel is demonized (the bogus Jenin massacre, bogus deliberate murder during OCL, bogus indiscriminate slaughter on the Marmara, bogus intentional murder of Muhammad al Dura) and those things lead to antisemitism and Jewish deaths, are you not supporting incitement against Jews?

ETA:

Do you not care? Or are you just in denial all that's incitement? Would it be incitement if the MSM were to demonize Palestinians, exaggerate, lie, etc..? At the very least that would be bigotry, like Arutz Sheva reporting. Agreed?


My posts don't demonize Palestinians. Apparently you believe citing a PEW poll is demonization. Or citing a poll from a Palestinian polling firm. But feel free to try proving I demonize Palestinians.

It's also funny you argue left vs. right when months ago I challenged you to find some issue WRT Fatah that puts them left of Likud. You couldn't do that then and you certainly cannot name even one thing liberal or progressive about Palestine now. It's not that you don't wish to play games, it's that you know damned well there's not one thing liberal or progressive about a Palestine run by the PLO and Hamas that you support so much.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. I distinctly recall posting that for you in the post yr replying to..
You missed it? No matter, I'll just post it again:

'"We regret the grave offence to an important rabbi's honor. He is one of Israel's greatest rabbis and leaders of the religious public," the statement said.'

No-one but a fellow traveller would call that ugly bigot an important and great leader. If they did oppose his views they must speak out against such hatefilled poison otherwise they're enabling him, by showering him with praise.

It's disturbing that you equate the ISM with a creature like Lior. I take it you've not noticed the threads in this forum about him and are unaware of his views? I can fill you in on them if you continue to make such absurd comparisons.

Sorry, but yr posts do indeed demonise Palestinians, and it happens on a regular basis. There's no positive that gets noticed, and any negative is pounced upon and worked up into scenarios where Palestinian society is equated with Nazi Germany...

t's also funny you argue left vs. right when months ago I challenged you to find some issue WRT Fatah that puts them left of Likud. You couldn't do that then

This is the second time in as many weeks you've tried to argue that same falsehood. I did indeed do what you claimed I didn't, just like I don't support Hamas.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. The head Rabbis have not endorsed Lior...
Edited on Tue Dec-06-11 07:30 AM by shira
The state certainly does not. And if Israel controlled the media as you once asserted, they're doing a terribly piss poor job controlling Haaretz from condemning Lior's disgusting incitement. Israel's amazing freedom of expression tends to make it difficult for Israel to be as nasty as Hamas and the PLO and get away with it.

It's disturbing you don't see a problem with the ISM.


The Palestine Solidarity Movement: Advocacy and Facilitation of Terroristic Violence
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/14579590/Palestine-Solidari...

The same ISM that proudly supports antisemites like Gilad Atzmon...
http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2011/06/26/us-boat-to... /

The very same ISM that arranged FreeGaza by working closely with their friends in the Turkish IHH and Hamas
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/06/smoking_gun_the_...

Check out the pics from the last link.


You still support the ISM, the FreeGaza Movement, and BDS - correct? Each demonizes, delegitimizes, supports and incites violence/terror. I'm assuming you still do since you've never once written that you have a problem with them and you've supported them in the past.

That said, where do you get off showing disgust at people like Lior who incite violence and bigotry?

Pot/Kettle, correct?

=========

Where do I demonize Palestinians? Show me please. Comparing a society run by Hamas and the PLO to that of the Nazis is not demonizing Palestinians, but rather the sick and disgusting leadership in charge ruining Palestine. The 24/7 non-stop hate rhetoric pushed in Hamas/PLO run schools, mosques, government institutions, and media is arguably worse than Nazi propaganda. Now that I think of it, I can't remember ever seeing you criticize Hamas and the PLO for their incitement and disgusting bigotry. You evade the issue completely. Can I assume by your silence you don't have a big problem with any of that?

Lastly, you have yet to show how Fatah is to the left of Likud. Signing a piece of paper in 1993, in stark contrast to their words and deeds ever since, doesn't prove they're left of Likud or liberal/progressive in any way. Is that really all you have? Again, I have no problem agreeing with you if you could find some evidence that they are in some way leftwing, liberal, or progressive. You don't get to lecture others about being bigoted vs. Palestinians when you cannot find one thing positive, liberal, or progressive about a Palestine run by Hamas and the PLO. Maybe the reason you can't name anything is the same reason I cannot. Because there's nothing liberal/progressive about it. Now has is THAT demonization? I get the impression if the GOI acted exactly like Hamas/PLO, you wouldn't have anything positive to say about them either.


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. As I didn't say that, I guess yr now inventing yr own arguments again...
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 03:23 AM by Violet_Crumble
I also didn't say anything about having a problem or not with the ISM. What I said was very clear so I'll repeat it again and bold the part you appear to have totally ignored in favour of going off on a tangent: 'It's disturbing that you equate the ISM with a creature like Lior. I take it you've not noticed the threads in this forum about him and are unaware of his views? I can fill you in on them if you continue to make such absurd comparisons.'

Clearly you must be unaware of his views, as you continue to defend those who call him an influential and one of Israel's greatest rabbis, and continue to think that the ISM is on a par with a man who calls Arabs 'evil camel riders', who legitimised the murder of non-Jews during war, amongst other things. Here's a thread where he says that gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring. I notice you didn't appear in this thread so you must have missed all this stuff about Lior...

'Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring'

Rabbi Dov Lior, a senior authority on Jewish law in the Religious Zionism movement, asserted recently that a Jewish woman should never get pregnant using sperm donated by a non-Jewish man even if it is the last option available

According to Lior, a baby born through such an insemination will have the "negative genetic traits that characterize non-Jews." Instead, he advised sterile couples to adopt.

Lior addressed the issue during a women's health conference held recently at the Puah Institute, a fertility clinic. His conservative stance negated a ruling widely accepted by rabbis, which states that sperm donated by a non-Jew is preferable to that of an anonymous Jew, who might pose a genealogical risk.

"Sefer HaChinuch (a book of Jewish law) states that the character traits of the father pass on to the son," he said in the lecture. "If the father in not Jewish, what character traits could he have? Traits of cruelty, of barbarism! These are not traits that characterize the people of Israel."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

You ask: 'Where do I demonize Palestinians?' and proceed in the same line to give an excellent example of doing it where you compare Palestinian society to the Nazis. That's every bit as ugly and bigoted as someone comparing Israeli society to the Nazis and then showing an amazing ignorance of what a society is by tacking on 'I'm talking about the leadership!!!!!'. When you talk about society, yr talking about an entire group of people. Knowing how fond you are of definitions that come from The Dictionary, you might want to go look it up. Then after that, you might want to educate yrself about Palestinian society, something which you clearly have no knowledge or understanding of. There's some books out there you can start with if you can tear yrself away from the sort of sites that equate Palestinians to Nazis, and here's a few to get you started. I strongly suspect you won't be interested, but others reading may be, so this is for them...

Mountain Against The Sea: Essays On Palestinian Society And Culture


The Palestinian People - Baruch Kimmerling & Joel S Migdal (I can strongly recommend this one as I own a copy)

We Shall Return: Women of Palestine (This one talks to Palestinian women in Lebanese refugee camps and gives a really good look at the society they live in. As with the first two books, there's no whiff of a Nazi society, because it just doesn't exist)

As for that last bit, why do you randomly drop the same 'argument' into different threads? I've already dealt with that in another thread by referring you to the initial 'exchange' about it, rather than getting into some repeat the same thing over and over game. So, here it is again...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #100
101. The ISM, BDS movement, and FGM are all as bad or worse than Lior and you still support them.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 04:13 AM by shira
The leaders of those movements are all hateful antisemites, for the destruction of Israel, justify terror against innocents, and gladly harbor terrorists they are quite friendly with. I can't understand how someone who says they're for peace and 2 states, like yourself, supports these movements. That's why it's my opinion you're not for 2 states and you support delegitimization efforts, one state, etc. despite what you claim.

Palestinian society is a fear society totally controlled by Hamas and the PLO. Palestinians don't have a say in what goes on there and cannot change things for the better if they wanted to. THAT's why the society is very, very bad. Once again, that's due to the leadership. That's not to say there aren't decent individuals, but they are not the society. As to your books, they deal with society in the first half of the 20th century and refugees in Lebanon. That's not what I'm talking about...

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. No, they're not. That yr ignoring Lior's calls for murder and hatred of gentiles is disturbing...
Not only ignoring it, but in yr own words continuing to deflect from the fact that the Chief Rabbi of Israel said a hatefilled person who called for the killing of non-Jews and called Arabs 'evil camel riders' was an influential man and one of Israel's greatest rabbis....

Get back to me when you see any of the groups or movements you mentioned doing that. That you fail to see the sheer ugliness of Lior is extremely disturbing....


I doubt anyone but you gives a shit what yr opinions are as to what my views are, especially when yr opinions are usually the complete opposite of what I believe. I've figured you do that because to set up a false strawperson to knock down in a flurry of rage is just easier than having to deal with views that hold a level of complexity that's difficult for you to grasp.

Yep, I didn't think you'd take the second or two required to even read the information about those books. I have two of them in my bookcase here, and they deal with modern Palestinian society. And that's what demonisation is, to ignore facts put right in front of you and instead continue to fling around ugly and false accusations about a society you know nothing at all about...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #103
106. I'm ignoring nothing. Lior's views are vile and he deserves to be condemned...
You're the one supporting vile organizations like the ISM, FGM, and BDS movement.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. Yeah, that condemnation's been oozing out of yr every post in this thread!
:sarcasm:

As I recall, you've not said a word about the ugly and bigoted opinions he voices, instead not seeing a problem with why someone would call him influential and one of Israel's great rabbis. And then to top it off, yr continuing to try to deflect! Clumsy!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. How many times do I need to condemn him? Unlike yourself, who still supports nasty and vile...
....organizations that are bigoted and warmongering. How do you defend that without deflecting?

Let me make it very clear. Lior's views are repulsive and vile. Without any question, he is a bigoted hater whose views need to be condemned outright.

I shouldn't have to tell you politics stands in the way of the chief Rabbis of Israel not condemning him as an outright bigot and warmonger. Leave that to the seculars and traditionalists. Politics sucks and it's the reason all Western governments tend to keep their own disgusting bigots in power.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #109
112. Well, even once would be nice....
Which I notice you haven't been capable of doing until backed into a corner.

As for the rest, it's yr usual deflection...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. I've done it at least 3-4 times in this thread alone. But what makes you think you can lecture...
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 11:22 AM by shira
...others about hate and bigotry when the sources you use and organizations you support WRT Israel/Palestine are hateful and bigoted?

You have no business lecturing others about hate and bigotry.

In fact, your mantra of "all criticism of Hamas/PA is really bigoted criticism of Palestinians in general" just goes to show you don't distinguish between the Islamist extremists in control of the Palestinian gov't and the citizens they've been oppressing on a daily basis for years. You're under the very false impression Palestinians are one and the same as their extreme Islamist gov't. You should realize all Palestinians are not the same (rightwingers do that) so therefore to criticize Hamas and the PA is not criticism of Palestinians in general.

=========

WRT Lior vs. the PA, there is no moral equivalency between what the state of Israel allows him to do and what the PA routinely does 24/7 to incite Palestinians towards hate and violence. The differences are vast b/w Israel and Palestine WRT incitement. Israel's media and NGO's keep the GOI honest. That's what freedom of expression tends to do. The GOI also funds programs promoting genuine tolerance and peace. The PA isn't into that stuff at all. Even if they wanted to be, Hamas and Islamic Jihad would ridicule them for trying to play nice with the Jews and Zionists.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. No you haven't. All you've done is make excuses and deflect...
I wasn't aware that participating on a discussion forum and pointing out the bleeding obvious to you was 'lecturing'. Oh, well. In that case I can feel another 'lecture' coming on, so sit back and hold on to yr hat!

When someone who repeatedly equates Palestinian society with Nazis, who has in the past fawned over posters who were later tombstoned for their bigoted stances about Palestinians, and who has openly admitted they're just not interested in what an author they admire says when it comes to blatantly anti-Muslim views about Muslim immigration to Europe, then turns around and tries to 'lecture' others about bigotry and hatred, it's pretty clear they have a massive disconnect with reality and have set the bar for bigotry so incredibly high when it comes to Muslims that all but the most extreme won't get over, but puts that same bar just a millimetre off the ground when it comes to bigotry against Jews. That bar should be set at the same level for all forms of bigotry. While I'm sure it is when it comes to many other DUers, in yr case it's not...

In fact, your mantra of "all criticism of Hamas/PA is really bigoted criticism of Palestinians in general"


WTF? If yr going to quote me, have the decency to quote something I've actually said! I've NEVER said that because I don't believe that at all. If you were someone who was interested in what my views are, I'd send you to the archives to dig up my posts where I have criticised the PA (as for Hamas, yr accusation before that I'm a supporter of Hamas was incredibly lame, as they stand for everything I'm opposed to), but there's no interest in doing anything but deliberately misrepresenting my views and attributing fake quotes to me....

Only the most delusional and one-eyed would sit there and claim that the current extreme RW Israeli government is honest...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Lame attempt at projecting your faults onto your opponents, but...
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 04:43 PM by shira
...at least you're consistent.

You do the same WRT comparing Israel's actions with those of Hamas and the PA, as though they're just as bad, so to criticize Hamas/PLO for things Israel does (not that Israel does that) is hypocritical. Now you're doing the same WRT your online opponents.

Brilliant strategy if you can get away with it.

That way, you never have to criticize the PA or Hamas (because supposedly what Israel does is just as bad). And whenever your mask slips, simply accuse your opponent of the same w/o ever reflecting on your own faults.

Still lame...

But good in that you constantly stay on the offensive and never have to defend your views (not that you can since you always seem to avoid answering questions).
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. The thing is I don't create fake quotes, and I don't engage in lowering and raising the bar...
And yet again I'll correct you on the completely incorrect accusation that I've never criticised the PA, let alone Hamas. I really wish you'd stop making false accusations about what me and other supporters of Palestinian self-determination believe. It's clear what the issue is is that for folk such as yrself, what you'd like to see is an environment where Israel isn't criticised, but instead making way for nothing but criticism of the Palestinians...

Another correction. Yr not an 'online opponent' and if you view yrself that way, yr mistaken. My 'online opponents' are the folk who while I disagree with them, I know I can have a constructive and interesting debate with them. They don't make constant false accusations about my beliefs, and don't create fake quotes out of thin air attributed to me that I never said or believe. You'd be best to describe yrself as a 'Higher Post Count Assistant' ;)
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. you are totally wrong here.
The kind of hateful rhetoric we're discussing here is widespread throughout the Palestinian and mideastern Muslim leadership in general. In Israel, as in America, it is generally relegated to a fringe movement. Your examples of support doesn't necessarily mean much. Of course Yaakov Katz was outraged... Lior threw his support behind National Union. This is just politics. Unfortunately, Lior has an outspoken and influential-for-its-size political movement behind him. This is obviously very scary and deserves a lot of investigation and criticism. But trying to compare it to the level of anti-semitic rhetoric that routinely comprises Palestinian politics takes quite an imagination.

For example... this whole stink was raised because the police detained him. When was the last Palestinian leader to get detained and questioned for inciting violence? In the late 1980s the Attorney General barred Liors election to the Supreme Rabbinical Council following a public outcry over his remarks that captured Arab terrorists could be used in medical experiments. Can you cite something similar happening in Palestinian government? Both opposition leader Tzipi Livni and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called for a full judicial investigation of Lior's remarks and said that rabbis were not above the law. Again, can you show us this happening in Palestine?

But the reality is that US and British leaders and in the case of the UK, the leaders of their official religion, do not in any way endorse the extremists you mention

Really? Louisiana actually elected David Duke to the US Senate! One of the frontrunners for the GOP presidential race swore that he would never hire a Muslim as a cabinet member because he thinks they are trying to institute Sharia Law. Don't make me quote Bachmann.

I posted examples of the support the Israeli govt as well as the Chief Rabbi give to the ugliest and most disgusting people like Dov Lior. I do like how it's apparently only an issue when it comes to Muslims, and when it's any other religious leader supported by the state, they get downgraded to 'mumblings of a whacko leader'.

You posted politicians voicing their disapproval of an arrest, not support of his views. Big dif. vminfla posted quotes from many politicians saying the same thing. You posted ONE guy making racist statements and no politician's quotes supporting his philosophy.

Additionally, very few examples of Jewish terrorism against Palestinians occur in relation to the opposite. How can you even compare the two? Where are all the Baruch Goldsteins if Lior is inciting so many people?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. +100. n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. I'll remove that +100 by adding a -1000. That makes it -900! n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. No, I'm not, Shakti...
The kind of hateful rhetoric we're discussing here is widespread throughout the Palestinian and mideastern Muslim leadership in general. In Israel, as in America, it is generally relegated to a fringe movement. Your examples of support doesn't necessarily mean much.

And unfortunately it's also far too widespread in Israel. I don't know or particularly care which level is worse, as it's all equally disgusting. It's not a fringe thing when the Chief Rabbi of Israel is supporting a lunatic like that, nor when MK's support it. If it just politics to support such people, then there's something really sick about politics. We had a kind of similar situation here where Pauline Hanson was elected to the Senate and made a maiden speech that was really bigoted against Asians and immigrants. She'd thrown her support behind the Liberal government, and while I don't have much good to say about the former Howard government, even the Howard government not only distanced themselves from her, but came out and strongly opposed what she'd said. I could say that was just politics, as Asian countries she was attacking are some of our major trading partners, but I think in that case it was done because what she said was so extreme that no sane person could have stood by in support of her.

I know that you, unlike some others, have been consistent in stating yr revulsion of such things in Israel, and I suspect that yr of the same mind as me in believing that extremism on both sides isn't endemic within either Israeli or Palestinian societies, and that it needs to be opposed by everyone who wants to see a peacceful end to the conflict.

For example... this whole stink was raised because the police detained him. When was the last Palestinian leader to get detained and questioned for inciting violence?

I honestly don't know. I do know a few years back the PA rounded up a bunch of folk that were inciting or committing violence, but then Israel went and bombed the crap out of the prisons in the West Bank anyway, making it a bit difficult to detain anyone...

The police detained Lior for how long? Wasn't it a few hours or less? Wasn't there threats of bloodshed if he wasn't released?

Really? Louisiana actually elected David Duke to the US Senate!

I've seen lots of references to David Duke at DU, but only took notice when he did a massive copyright infringement of an article a friend of mine wrote for the Guardian and my friend told me that after he'd asked Duke with no success to remove it from his site, the Guardian sent Duke one of those legal cease and desist threats. I looked into him then, mainly because of my friend's horror that Duke would put his article on his site, and found out he was a former KKK Grand Wizard. I hadn't realised he had been elected to the US Senate, which is appalling and means the people in Lousiana who voted for him are really incredibly stupid people, or just plain ugly. Maybe they're ugly AND stupid.

Yes, I'm aware of the habit of many Republican politicians to hold and express some extremely bigoted views, and while I think Obama's turning out to be a bit of a fizzer, at least the current US administration doesn't hold or support such views, I have seen similar views expressed in the big forums here, one in particular who said that she'd NEVER go out with a Muslim and embarked on some pretty nasty reasons why. No, please don't quote Bachmann. I'm quite happy to be in a bit of a vague ignorance when it comes to her, because what I've seen of her is so insane and ugly.

You posted politicians voicing their disapproval of an arrest, not support of his views.

No, I'm pretty sure I posted something from the Chief Rabbi talking about how he was an important Rabbi. If I'm horrified by what someone does, I wouldn't be jumping in there and going on about how important he is while kicking up a stink about how they dared to arrest him. I'd be stepping back from that one...

Additionally, very few examples of Jewish terrorism against Palestinians occur in relation to the opposite.

How do you come to that conclusion? What do you define as terrorism? Isn't attacking Palestinian civilians considered to be terrorism? If so, there's endless examples of extremist settlers doing it in the West Bank....
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. you're right, it is far too widespread in Israel.
And unfortunately it's also far too widespread in Israel. I don't know or particularly care which level is worse, as it's all equally disgusting. It's not a fringe thing when the Chief Rabbi of Israel is supporting a lunatic like that, nor when MK's support it. If it just politics to support such people, then there's something really sick about politics.

See I do disagree with you here though. I don't find it all equally disgusting. To be honest I don't know enough about these Rabbis or MKs to really say what they were thinking. Knowing nothing, it appeared to me that the Chief Rabbi stepped into a crazy situation where these supporters are going nuts and threatening violence (which I'm sure they would have no problem fulfilling), and he basically paid him some lip service before pleading for calm.

While these guys are truly frightening I still don't see them as anything near to the equivalent of their Palestinian counterparts.

How do you come to that conclusion? What do you define as terrorism? Isn't attacking Palestinian civilians considered to be terrorism? If so, there's endless examples of extremist settlers doing it in the West Bank....

Actually I don't know. That's a really great question. When does something qualify as merely a hate crime and when is it truly an act of terrorism?

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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
47. The differences is the messengers of death and destruction are on the PA Government payroll
The official Wafa stations and Hamas stations have institutionalized the call for murder against all Israelis.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. The Chief Rabbi of Israel isn't on the govt payroll?? n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-11 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. the difference is...
Edited on Sat Dec-03-11 03:43 AM by pelsar
that in a free society as in israel there is a opposing voice just as loud to oppose them from the citizens, from the newspapers, from the radio....the PA, does not offer that option.

its just the difference between a free society and a dictatorship.....one offers options, change as a constant, for improvement the other offers oppression and preferably no change

nothing to compare, there is no moral equivalency between the societies, just between individuals.
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