Norwegian lawmaker: Shoah never happened

[oberliner]

Norwegian Labor Party lawmaker Anders Mathisen isn't very popular right now -- members of his own party are calling for his resignation after Mathisen reportedly told the Finnmarken newspaper that the Holocaust never happened.

“There is no evidence the gas chambers or mass graves existed," he told the newspaper, according to reports. "Even reputable Holocaust historians have admitted it cannot be established.”

Mathisen reportedly has accused Holocaust survivors of exaggerating their stories, stating that the public has been brainwashed into believing the Holocaust took place because of films such as "Schindler's List", according to the forum.

The lawmaker, who also posted his findings on his Facebook page, has refused to resign from the party.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4046049,00.html

[aquart]

1. Now why is believing that so terribly important to him?

[bemildred]

2. That's an interesting question.

Although it is always pertinent to remember that people are a bit nuts.

[LeftishBrit]

16. The usual reason, I presume: it's an excuse to be antisemitic.

[Turbineguy]

3. Hmmm......

Maybe Eisenhower faked the Normandy landings so he could get elected US President as well.

Who knows where this could lead?

:crazy:

[Poll_Blind]

4. Like a lot of holocaust deniers I've seen, he kind of weaves this tapastry of...

...semi or conditional truths with or to build a foundation for outright lies. Kind of like some sort of weird custom reverse post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

PB

[Buzz Clik]

5. Has Methisen asked to see Obama's birth certificate yet? If not, it's coming.

[azurnoir]

6. NO evidence? I guess the eye witness testimonies

of thousands of Holocaust survivors is what-mass hypnosis?

I've never really understood this phenomena and even less so those who believe it, the 'evidence' is so great, so overwhelming, how can any sane person believe differently?

[Liberal Veteran]

7. Pfft...You can use facts to prove anything that's even REMOTELY true!

[Old Troop]

63. Let's not forget the tens of thousands of Allied soldiers who liberated

the camps or the records, photos and films that the Nazis kept.

[derby378]

8. You folks might consider this story useful

http://www.ntskeptics.org/2001/2001august/august20011.htm

[shaayecanaan]

9. He is not a "Norwegian lawmaker"

he is a member of the Sami parliament in Norway, which is a devolved representative body for Sami (the indigenous people of Norway). Sort of like the former ATSIC (for those of us from Australia) which was a representative body for Aboriginal people.

The Sami parliament is essentially a consultative body that advises the government on issues involving Sami people and performs some administrative tasks implementing social programs in those communities:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Parliament_of_Norway#Responsibilities

While Mr Mathieson was, of his own initiative, a rank-and-file member of the Labor party, he was not a member of the parliamentary party - because he was not in parliament - and he held no position of authority in the party.

It also turns out that currently, he is not even a rank-and-file member of the Labor Party, as he allowed his membership to lapse last year:-

http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2011/03/18/mp-loses-party-support-for-holocaust-denial/

It took me about two minutes to figure this out from the Finnmarken web site. You'd think that out of the 500 blogs that have already quoted this story that one of them would have thought to check.

[oberliner]

14. News sources from Norway identify him the same way

Using the terms "lawmaker" and "MP" to describe him:

Norwegian Sami Parliamentary Labour MP Anders Mathisen is at the centre of a feud with his own Party, denying the Holocaust ever happened. Fellow politicians are calling for his resignation.

http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/labour-minority-mp-in-holocaust-row/

Not sure what point you are trying to make here.

[LeftishBrit]

15. I think that the point is that he's not a member of the national parliament

And therefore does not have a great deal of power in national affairs.

It may be akin to the difference between a US senator and an American state legislator.

The reason why it's important to clarify this is that there is a tendency in some of the American and British media to assume that antisemitism (like all other evils!) is specifically a phenomenon of the left, and therefore additional evidence that the left is Bad. This is bad both from the point of view of helping to keep the Right in power, and because right-wing antisemitism gets ignored. Thus, in a slightly different connection, people seem much more prepared to pounce on anything that could be seen as antisemitic when it's in a Guardian comment than when it's in Daily Telegraph comment - though it's very easy to find borderline and sometimes blatant antisemitism in the latter! Therefore, I think it's important to indicate that this episode, nasty as it is, does not indicate that antisemitism is an official or semi-official policy of the Norwegian Labour Party. This is the disgusting behaviour of a previously rather obscure politician, who has already been in trouble for fraud in the past, and who is now being denounced by his party.

I hasten to add that there was nothing left-bashing about the OP, and that it's extremely important to recognize and denounce Holocaust denial wherever it occurs. It is a dangerous virus that never seems to go away!!! But I wanted to forestall any possible interpretations either of the form "Oh no - the Norwegian Labour Party has evil policies and that shows why socialism is bad" or "Only left-wingers deny the Holocaust and therefore we don't need to worry about the rising tide of right-wing antisemitism in general and the rise of Europaean neo-Nazi parties in particular".

[shaayecanaan]

17. That is completely untrue - the Norwegian press does not identify him as a "lawmaker"

because the body to which he belongs does not make law.

Either the Israeli press is mistaken in describing him as a "lawmaker" or they have intentionally distorted the facts to try and make hay out of this issue.

He belongs to a body made up of Sami (native) people that advises the national government on native affairs. The US equivalent would be the Board of Indian Commissioners, which advises the US government on Indian affairs.

The Assembly of First Nations does the same in Canada, and until recently the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Council (ATSIC) did the same in Australia.

As such, Mathieson does not have the clout of a federal MP or even, as was elsewhere suggested, a State MP - or even, frankly, that of a local councillor. He has about as much power as an Indian Commissioner or a First Nations chief in the US or Canada - which is not very much.

[oberliner]

18. Yes they do - and the Israeli press mentions the fact that he is from the Sami parliament

From the Norwegian Press:

Ap-politiker Anders Mathisen

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/troms_og_finnmark/1.7568508

Samepolitiker Anders Mathisen avviser at Holocaust har funnet sted.

http://www.finnmarkdagblad.no/leder/article5526863.ece

Vararepresentanten på Sametinget, Anders Mathisen...

http://www.nordlys.no/nyheter/article5525457.ece

Ap-politiker mener holocaust er fantasi

Sametingspolitiker Anders Mathisen (Ap) mener det er løgn og fanteri at 6 millioner jøder ble utryddet under 2. verdenskrig.

http://www.an.no/nyheter/article5525152.ece

From the Israeli Press:

Norwegian Sami Parliamentary Labor politician Anders Mathisen isn't very popular right now - members of his own party are calling for his resignation after Mathisen reportedly told the Finnmarken newspaper that the Holocaust never happened.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4046049,00.html

[shaayecanaan]

24. The Norwegian press refers to him as a politician, not a lawmaker..

he is a politician, even if a rather lowly one. However, he is not a lawmaker, as the "parliament" to which he belongs does not have the ability to make laws or set policy.

You may have noticed that the original headline you posted: "Norwegian lawmaker: shoah never happened" has been changed to "Norwegian politician: shoah never happened" in the Ynet article you just posted. So apparently Ynet are happy to take the correction on board, even if you're unwilling to do the same.

[Ken Burch]

20. Therefore, neither the Norwegian Labor Party nor anyone else on the Norwegian left

(or, for that matter, the Norwegian government)

is to blame for what this idiot said.

Are we all clear on that now?

[King_David]

25. Yes but the Party is responsible for what happens after.

If he does not resign , it will be interesting to see if he is banished from the party.

Some countries like Germany or Canada would prosecute him.

[Ken Burch]

26. It's pretty obvious that he would be, and in fact there's no reason for you to imply

that they wouldn't expel him, especially given that Norwegian Labor Party members were heavily involved in the resistance movement against the pro-Nazi regime led by Vidkun Quisling-they were joined by international social democrats like the future West German chancellor Willy Brandt-in fact, "Willy Brandt" was his nom de guerre from the resistance-his real name was Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm).

Norwegian Labor members would never be soft on Holocaust denial. They have nothing to prove on that issue.

[shaayecanaan]

27. He is no longer a member of the Labor Party...

he let his application lapse and the Party has said they will not accept any new application for membership from him.

"Some countries like Germany or Canada would prosecute him."

Are you saying he should be?

[King_David]

28. Nope I think its better these miscreants identify themselves

But I am saying that Some countries like Germany or Canada would prosecute him.

[RZM]

10. What a bunch of crap

I've never heard of a 'reputable Holocaust historian' arguing that there were no mass graves or gas chambers.

[LeftishBrit]

12. + 10000000!

David Irving and the IHR do not = reputable historians!

[LeftishBrit]

11. Ugh. No place for such vileness in any modern political party...

and especially not the Labour Party. I am glad that his party are telling him to resign.

ETA: He does not seem to be a current member of the Norwegian parliament (Stortinget). I could not find his name on the following list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_Stortinget_2009%E2%80%932013

Nor was he in the 2005-2009 list.

His own Wikipedia entry refers mainly to his activities in the Workers Youth League in the mid-90s, when he would have been about 20 (born 1975). He was apparently implicated in a financial scandal at the time, so he seems to be a fraudster by nature, in all possible ways. There is no mention of any subsequent political career, so I would assume that he has at worst played a very minor role in politics, and this episode will hopefully ensure that he never does (what is the Norwegian for 'macaca moment'?!)

A nasty piece of work, in any case.

[Ken Burch]

21. He was never in the Norwegian parliament

He was in the Norwegian Sami Parliament, which is a consultative body for the Sami(indigenous)population of Norway. And he quit the Labor Party last year.

[oberliner]

22. Wrong on both counts

He was a member of the Norwegian parliament and he did not quit the Labor Party last year.

[Ken Burch]

23. He was a member of the Norwegian Sami Parliament, not the Norwegian Parliament

The Norwegian Sami Parliament is a smaller body devoted solely to the interests of the Sami population(those once known as "Lapps").
It is an entirely different body than the Norwegian Parliament that sits in Oslo.

And according to another post in this thread, he DID let his Labor Party membership lapse last year.

Here are the wikipedia entries for BOTH Norwegian deliberative bodies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Norway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Parliament_of_Norway

Therefore, the Norwegian Parliament and the Norwegian Labor Party bear no responsibility for this idiot.

[kestrel91316]

13. Some Norwegians were Nazi collaborators. Probably his family.

STOOPIT - it's in the blood.

[Ken Burch]

19. The man is an idiot and should resign.

n/t.

[Lars77]

29. He is a deputy representative at the Sami assembly in the arctic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Parliament_of_Norway

This parliament was established to deal with Sami matters, i.e. anything meaningful for the country as a whole or important in the region is dealt with in Oslo.

According to http://www.nordlys.no/nyheter/article5525457.ece which is a northern Norwegian newspaper, he hasn't paid his membership fee in the Labour Party for years, so he hasn't been a member for years. The labour party has already said they will not allow him to join again should he decide to.

He being a deputy which means that he can be called in if a representative is sick or away.

Also, he didnt actually go to the newspaper to say it, it was something he wrote on his facebook page. Bad spelling included.


Something tells me he won't get re-elected..

[shira]

30. SV allows for military force against Israel

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Firiks%2Farticle4073714.ece

The proposal focuses on Norway's participation in the Libyan war, is also committed to act against Israel, writes aftenbladet.no.

- The world's credibility in the confrontation with the Gaddafi regime is weakened when the reaction to other states in the region who commit atrocities against civilians fail. The world community must also act against Israeli aircraft attack in the Gaza Strip, "the proposal for comment.

[Lars77]

31. Why did you put that in a thread about a Norwegian anti-semite?

Oh let me guess..

[shira]

32. Any comments on the article? n/t

[Lars77]

34. What's the problem?

They are obviously doing it to show the hypocricy of allowing one country to kill thousands of civilians and not the other.

[shira]

36. The problem is that many don't believe Israel has a right to defend its citizens from rockets.

Israeli citizens should just "take it".

That's fine - so long as denial of self-defense is applied to all nations, Norway included.

So when Norway is attacked with rockets and mortars, they don't get to defend either.

Deal?

[Lars77]

38. Well this is the great question isn't it

Some might argue that building illegal settlements on palestinian land, cutting the hands of palestinian farmers, shooting children and bombing civilians with phosporous might not be the best way to do that.

Just keep posting your Norway articles..

[shira]

41. "Some might argue"..... Whoever argues that is idiotic. n/t

[Lars77]

42. Then I guess I'm an idiot

better than being called an anti-semite at least.

[shira]

33. Oslo demands relocation of Israeli embassy

Michael Eligal, Israel's ambassador to Oslo, sent the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem a cable saying embassy staffers were having a hard time finding an alternate site. "Our search has been frustrating, to say the least," the envoy wrote. "No one wants to sell us property."

A Foreign Ministry official said the affair is indicative of a new low in Israel-Norway relations. "The authorities in Norway are capitulating to public opinion that is hostile to Israel," he said. "They are doing everything they can to make things more difficult on the embassy."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4031580,00.html

[shira]

35. Something rotten in Norway

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4048299,00.html

There are many examples of anti-Israel hate mongering, anti-Semitism and unethical journalism in Norway in recent years. The pioneering of anti-Semitism in Norway has a long tradition. Typically, it was the last country in Europe to admit Jews, which happened in 1851. In 1929 its parliament forbade by great majority, ritual slaughter - well before Germany did so when the Nazis came to power in 1933. Yet up until this day, the cruel hunting of whales is still permitted in Norway.

In Norway during the war, the Jews to be murdered were arrested and robbed by Norwegians and not by the Germans. It is not by chance that the name of wartime Prime Minister Quisling became a generic international term for traitor.

Nowadays, Norway is also a leader in initiating anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic actions. One example among many: Norwegian trade union LO was, together with the Danish one, the first in Europe to propose a boycott of Israel in 2002. Such boycotts have slow spillover effects elsewhere. A few weeks ago one major Norwegian member union of LO accepted the most far-reaching boycott resolution against Israel anywhere.

Norwegian society is dominated by a left of center elite group of politicians, journalists, academics, NGOs and some bishops. Among these elites one finds many anti-Israeli hate mongers, obsessed with a small country thousands of kilometers away. One among many examples of how distorted the views of this elite group is that 9% of Norwegian journalists voted for the minute extreme left Red party. Almost none however, support the pro-Israeli Progress party, one of the two major opposition parties, or the smaller Christian Democrats.

[Lars77]

37. hahaha this is the dumbest shit i have ever read.

What i'm just a Norwegian who's been guided through Sachsenhausen by a former inmate, so what the fuck do i know right?

Edit: And i love that picture saying "substantial damage" while it shows the Oslo main street on a calm day, looks like a sunday. The picture is taken from the royal palace down main street. The israeli embassy is behind the palace about 300m behind the cameraman.

[shira]

39. Disgusting response. n/t

[Lars77]

40. Oh yes disgusting

I just thought i'd let you know that i am aware that the holocaust happened, since i'm Norwegian after all.

[shira]

43. "Norwegian Helen Thomas fan here"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8574454#8578508

[Lars77]

44. That's me! You googled my nickname, amazing. nt

[shira]

45. Can't say I'm impressed with fans of Helen Thomas after her recent comments...

Still a fan of hers after her Playboy interview?

[Lars77]

46. Read parts of it

She's conspiratorial, but her claim that its impossible to get 330 votes for anything pro-arab is an obvious fact.

I'm certainly a fan of the Helen Thomas of the press room. While she were asking real questions most of the others were just kissing ass.

[shira]

47. You don't think she's antisemitic?

She's the poster-child for the new antisemitism.

[Lars77]

48. I don't know

She seems angry, conspiratorial. In my mind being an anti-semite means someone who hates Jews blindly.

She talks more about some kind of power apparatus. She's partly right in that AIPAC are extremely influential in US politics.

Strange term, "anti-semite", when you consider that Arabs are semites too.

[shira]

49. And that's the problem.

You're incapable of distinguishing between people who are genuine antisemites and those who are just critics of Israel.

Your views on I/P cannot be taken seriously.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

52. 'Anti-semite' may be a strange term, but it was invented by Europaean antisemites to refer to

hostility to Jews.

'Semite' is not a particularly valid racial/ethnic term in any sense, as it really refers to a family of *languages*. However 'antisemite' has the clear meaning, devised and designed by antisemites themselves, of someone who dislikes Jews on ethnic and not just religious grounds. Someone who is 'anti-Jewish' as a form of religious bigotry may still accept a Jew who converts to the prevailing religion; an 'antisemite' dislikes anyone with Jewish ancestry.

[azurnoir]

55. Merriam-Webster say that it means both

people that originate from the ME both Arabs and Jews amongst others and a set of languages with the same or similar origins

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite

[oberliner]

56. No it doesn't

This is the only definition of anti-semitism given by Merriam-Webster:

hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

There is no other definition of that term listed.

[LeftishBrit]

54. I definitely think she's antisemitic.

But I wouldn't call her a poster-child for the *new* antisemitism. I would call her a poster-child for the same old, very old antisemitism (Jews controlling *Hollywood* FFS; you'd think the antisemites might at least get a few original ideas, but no, it's same-old!)

[shira]

58. There shouldn't be any question of that for those claiming to be anti-racists

The proof she's a poster child for the new antisemitism is here among many at DU. Many simply can't tell (or refuse to acknowledge) when criticism of Israel crosses over the line into antisemitism. The new antisemitism allows bigots to obscure their hate for Jews behind "criticism" of Israel. Helen Thomas is a perfect example of that.

[LeftishBrit]

51. Read not just parts, but all, of it.

There are some reasonable points, but this does not alter the fact that there is also quite a bit of plain old antisemitism. Saying that Zionists control Hollywood and the White House is just old-fashioned and indeed blatantly right-wing antisemitism, even if Helen Thomas is left-wing on other issues.

[LeftishBrit]

53. I'm afraid I cannot take the word of someone who speaks approvingly of someone having a bust of

Reagan, and complains that Norway is dominated by a 'left of centre elite'. Or who tries to address the problem of antisemitism in Norway without making any reference to one of the most notorious examples: the *Conservative* politician Kaare Willoch making disparaging remarks about President Obama appointing a Jewish Chief of Staff. It sounds as if he has a right-wing agenda to pursue. N.b. I am definitely NOT saying that being pro-Israel is in itself right-wing; I am saying that this particular person may be sympathetic to the right, and may thus be inclined to perceive antisemitism on the left and not on the right. Also, in my view, all right-wing viewpoints are intrinsically unreliable, and an opinion expressed by a right-winger can only ever be correct accidentally. Sometimes even a right-winger *may* accidentally say something that is true; but I would generally need independent confirmation .

My impressions, and those of Jewish friends who live in Norway, are that there is probably the same sort of level of antisemitism there as in the UK and USA, and less than in many parts of Europe. However, these are anecdotal impressions, and there have been no recent surveys of antisemitism in Norway. There is one being carried out now, and that may give some more accurate ideas about how serious the problem actually is.

[shira]

57. Do you take the word of "Leftists" who routinely lie, slander, dehumanize/defame Israel/Israelis?

A quick google search will show that the author of the article mentions rightwing antisemitism, in addition to antisemitism state-sponsored by rightwing Islamist regimes in and surrounding the mideast. Of course some people don't consider that to be an example of rightwing antisemitism worthy of condemnation. I don't take their word seriously either.

As to antisemitism in Norway vs. the US or UK, the fact is that it's easier to PRACTICE Judaism (be observant) in the US and UK than in Norway. So as long as Jews are discreet about being Jews in Norway, the situation is about the same as in the US or UK for them. Orthodox Jews can't buy or eat kosher meat in Norway, the only country on earth that forbids Jewish ritual slaughter.

Finally, what do you think about the SV party calling to bomb Israel? You don't think that's antisemitic?

[LeftishBrit]

59. I don't take the word of leftists who do these particular things.

and I don't take the word of right-wingers, PERIOD.

[shira]

60. Do you consider....

...American and Israeli liberals to be rightwing, generally speaking? I suppose that would go for the Labour party (generally speaking) in the UK too.

I ask b/c if they're all generally rightwing, then the "true Left" makes for a tiny minority - especially after excluding the part whose activism is mostly based on 3rd world extreme rightwing ideology. Which makes at least 95% of the UK, US, and Israel "rightwingers", with maybe 2-5% at best being "true Left".

What do you think?

[LeftishBrit]

61. No. You are missing the point.

I know that there are some people who consider that being pro-Israel is right-wing in itself. I am not one of them.

However: if somebody speaks approvingly of someone who has a bust of Ronald Reagan, and complains that Norway (or any country) is dominated by a 'left of centre elite', then I suspect them of being right-wing. If they address the issue of antisemitism or extreme anti-Zionism in Norway, without mentioning one of the best-known examples which happened to involve a Conservative, this is additional evidence that they may be right-wing.

Sometimes right-wing sources are quoted in support of pro-Israel views. Sometimes right-wing sources are quoted in support of pro-Palestinian views. In either case, I object to them and consider them as likely to be untrustworthy without independent confirmation, not because they are pro-Palestinian or pro-Israel, but because they are *right-wing*. I would never trust the views of someone who is a political admirer of Ronald Reagan (and no, most British Labourites are NOT in this category, though I wouldn't be too sure about 'Tory' Blair). And you can no doubt find political admirers of Ronald Reagan both in the pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian camp!

While I think that it should be acceptable to quote right-wing Middle Eastern sources, from Arutz Sheva to PressTV, as examples of people's attitudes in the region, I do not think that right-wing Western opinion pieces are valid evidence for anything, without independent confirmation.

ETA: Here are some comments of mine from a thread on the Health Forum about vaccinations (and thus totally unrelated to anything to do with I/P issues), which may give a clearer perspective of where I'm coming from:

(Other poster):

'...some stances on health issues cross party lines!...'


LeftishBrit:

'If they do, then you don't have to post the right-wing viewpoints
You can get the same stance from neutral or apolitical sources, which would not be spreading toxic views more generally.'


LeftishBrit (later on thread):

'I would never knowingly quote someone who is a *professional* right-winger, no. How someone votes in the ballot-box in privacy is irrelevant. However, if someone is a Republican or Tory politician, or right-wing journalist, rather than a doctor or medical researcher, then they are not messengers of medical fact who *happen* to be right wing. They are professional spreaders of right-wing evil, whose anti-vaccine views are generally part of a right-libertarian ideology, often combined with a general distrust of government involvement in healthcare. If someone is a professional supporter of a policy (opposition to government involvement in healthcare) that is estimated to kill 45000 Americans each year, then their opinions on health matters are instantly suspect.

There *are* professional right-wingers who have written articles in *support* of vaccinations; e.g. the Daily Telegraph journalist Cristina Odone. I would never knowingly quote someone like that! Indeed, on the whole I don't quote journalists' opinion pieces on topics like vaccines, but try to go directly to medical sources. But certainly I would not link to an individual or site that is dedicated to supporting right-wing policy.

(Quoting another poster): 'The constant kill the messenger tactics really get old.'

It's not a 'tactic' in my case - it is that it is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT TO ME whether someone is spreading a right-wing message than what is their precise view on vaccines. I didn't join DU because I support vaccines; I joined DU because it is an organization opposed to the right wing. I hate right wing ideas and policies and consider them to be the cause of many of the bad things in the world!

...if I am quoting a journalist's or politician's OPINION PIECE, then I wish to know whether it is embedded in a right wing context. They are not expressing these views as medical scientists or news reporters, but as political commentators; so it is highly relevant to know what their political views are.'

[shaayecanaan]

62. Scandinavian countries as a whole don't allow an animal to be slaughtered whilst still conscious...

a strict interpretation of both Islam and Judaism would dictate that an animal must die from exsanguination (blood loss) while still conscious. The Scandinavians have said that they have no problem with an animal being killed by a cut to the throat, but that they require the animal to be stunned first.

The restriction applies as much to Islam as it does to Judaism - or even other religions such as Santeria which require animal sacrifice. So halal butchers, as well as kosher butchers generally obtain their carcasses from abroad.