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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:12 AM
Original message
Holocaust survivors slam Arab museum for Helen Thomas statue
Edited on Thu Aug-05-10 11:13 AM by Bozita
Source: Detroit Free Press

POSTED: 11:46 A.M. AUG. 5, 2010
Holocaust survivors slam Arab museum for Helen Thomas statue
BY NIRAJ WARIKOO
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER


A noted group of Holocaust survivors is blasting the Arab American National Museum in Dearborn for financing a statue of journalist Helen Thomas to be placed in its building, saying it would tarnish its reputation.

The American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants, which represents about 80,000 families of Holocaust survivors in the U.S., said that honoring Thomas with a statue is immoral.

"The campaign to honor Helen Thomas with a statue is a moral taint on the Arab American National Museum," said Elan Steinberg, Vice-President of the Holocaust group, American Gathering. "The Museum must understand that American values are at stake here. We would be as horrified as they would be if some bigot demanded that Arab-Americans get out of this country."

Last week, the Free Press reported that the Arab-American museum had launched a campaign to raise the remaining $10,000 needed to finance a statue of Helen Thomas, the legendary journalist forced to resign after making anti-Israel remarks considered anti-Semitic.

Read more: http://www.freep.com/article/20100805/NEWS05/100805032/...



Belated birthday greetings to Helen.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bumblebee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. They are Holocaust survivors, and she told them they should go back to Germany
and they are complete idiots? Wow...
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. No she did not. Nice try. n/t
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. Actually she DID say that.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. No, she didn't say that at all. Here's what she actually said...
'She resigned in June from Hearst Newspapers after saying that Israelis should "get the hell out of Palestine."


Asked where they should go, Thomas said for them to "go home" to "Poland, Germany and America, and everywhere else," according to a video.'

Surely no-one's going to try to say that Israeli= Holocaust survivor or that Israeli = Jew (the latter is against the rules of this forum, btw)




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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. That's not what she actually said
She was asked: Any comments on Israel?

She responded: Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.

The person then asks: Any better comments than that?

She responds: Remember, these people are occupied and it's their land. Not Germany and not Poland.

Then the person asks: So where should they go? What should they do?

She says: Go home.

The person asks: Where's home?

She replies: Poland. Germany.

Then the person asks: So you're saying Jews should go back to Poland and Germany?

She replies: And America, and everywhere else.

That is the exchange that is on the video.

She didn't say the word Israelis at any point. It is totally illogical to conclude that she is saying that Israelis generally should go home to Poland and Germany. Certainly, she does not believe that Arab Israelis, for instance, might consider Poland or Germany to be their homes.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Where has that 'transcript' come from? I notice there's no link...
Yes, of course, Oberliner. When someone says 'any comments on Australia?' or 'any comments on South Africa', it's so totally illogical that an answer would be referring to Australians or South Africans!! (btw, that's sarcasm) Also, she also said Israelis should go home to the US as well. What's not only illogical, but quite ugly and pathetic is the way some 'supporters' of Israel equate Israelis with Jews whenever it suits their purposes, but then turn around and insist that it's not right to equate Jews with Israel if the argument isn't going their way.

Anyway, I'd be interested to see a transcript where she used the words 'Jews' or 'Holocaust survivors'. I know how much of a stickler you claim to be when it comes to getting even the smallest detail right and I'm sure you can assure the fellow 'supporters' of Israel in this thread who are claiming she said Jews or Holocaust survivors that she didn't mention those words at all...
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LTX Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. Here's the video.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/04/ari-fleischer-...

As noted above, she did not use the term "Israelis." Neither did she use the terms "Jews" or "Holocaust."

But is it your contention that she was telling Arab Israelis to "go home" to Poland and Germany? And is it your contention that Poland and Germany had no connection to the Holocaust?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. So I was correct in the first place. She didn't use the term Jew or Holocaust survivor...
I've already posted what my contention is. You can spot it if you take the time to read what yr replying to: 'When someone says 'any comments on Australia?' or 'any comments on South Africa', it's so totally illogical that an answer would be referring to Australians or South Africans!! (btw, that's sarcasm) Also, she also said Israelis should go home to the US as well.'

Some people seem very intent on trying to interpret what she said to mean Jews, not Israelis so they can embark on a spree of flinging accusations of antisemitism at her. I doubt very much that the only Israelis are either Jewish or Arab, but if you have some evidence to the contrary, feel free to share it.

Helen Thomas' comments were no more bigoted than the comments I saw not long after her comment was made from a DUer who posted that Australians should go back to England. And not surprisingly, not one single one of the small group of DUers claiming Helen Thomas' comments about Israelis was bigoted had a single word of opposition when a DUer made a similar comment about Australians. If you think Helen Thomas' comment was bigoted, maybe you could explain why you think the comment from a DUer about Australians wasn't bigoted? Or if you think the latter isn't a bigoted comment, could you explain why that sort of thing is only considered bigoted when said about Israelis?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Why did she bring up Germany and Poland?
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 03:34 PM by oberliner
Only a very tiny handful of people living in Israel were born in Germany or Poland. What would cause her to even mention those particular countries in the first place?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Why don't you ever mention she also brought up the US?
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 03:40 PM by Violet_Crumble
A lot of Israelis came from the US.

Also, could you please answer the questions I asked the previous poster? I'd be interested to know yr thoughts....

on edit: I've reposted the bit of my post I'd like you to address...

'Some people seem very intent on trying to interpret what she said to mean Jews, not Israelis so they can embark on a spree of flinging accusations of antisemitism at her. I doubt very much that the only Israelis are either Jewish or Arab, but if you have some evidence to the contrary, feel free to share it.

Helen Thomas' comments were no more bigoted than the comments I saw not long after her comment was made from a DUer who posted that Australians should go back to England. And not surprisingly, not one single one of the small group of DUers claiming Helen Thomas' comments about Israelis was bigoted had a single word of opposition when a DUer made a similar comment about Australians. If you think Helen Thomas' comment was bigoted, maybe you could explain why you think the comment from a DUer about Australians wasn't bigoted? Or if you think the latter isn't a bigoted comment, could you explain why that sort of thing is only considered bigoted when said about Israelis?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Her initial response was Germany and Poland
She only added America after she was pressed on the point with a follow-up question.

I am curious to know why you think she specifically named those two particular countries initially. Do you have any thoughts on that?

In response to your questions, I believe that the vast majority of Israelis (95 percent or more) are either Jewish or Arab (or both). I believe Wikipedia indicates as much, but I can try to find a better source if you'd like.

I do agree with you that some people are using this to fling accusations of anti-semitism against her because they don't like her for other reasons and are looking for some excuse to attack.

With respect to the content of her comments, I think the most reasonable way to interpret her remarks is that they were directed at Jewish Israelis, exclusively, and not Arab Israelis or other Israelis.

To answer my own question that I would like you consider (regarding why she specifically named Germany and Poland), my interpretation is that she is referencing the argument that a Jewish state ought to have been made out of Germany and Poland rather than in Palestine. Does that seem a reasonable interpretation?

If not, what are your thoughts on why she chose Germany and Poland in her initial response?

I would also add that, with respect to the OP, while I do support people's right to protest, I absolutely believe that she deserves the honor the museum is bestowing on her. She is a legend in journalism that Arab-Americans (and all Americans) ought to celebrate, these ill-advised comments notwithstanding.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. You didn't answer the question I asked about the same comment aimed at Australians...
Do I need to post the questions again? I've got to go in and do some overtime at work this morning but when I get home this afternoon I'd really like for you to address my questions about a similar comment being made about Australia. I've posted it twice now, and both times it's like you just haven't seen what was said. Is that because it wasn't said about Israelis?

Seeing as yr admitting that not all Israelis are Jewish or Arab, my point stands and there seems absolutely no point at all in you quibbling about how many percent of Israelis aren't. And as someone who's so literal and pendantic when it comes to things, it's a bit strange to see that suddenly yr trying to interpret what was said rather than focus on what was actually said...

I do agree with you that some people are using this to fling accusations of anti-semitism against her because they don't like her for other reasons and are looking for some excuse to attack.

I didn't say that. What I said was: 'Some people seem very intent on trying to interpret what she said to mean Jews, not Israelis so they can embark on a spree of flinging accusations of antisemitism at her.'

Do you think what she said was anti-semitic?

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Sorry about that
If I asked someone for a comment on Australia and they replied by saying that they should "go home", I would be confused - surely Australia is home for Australians, so I would ask for clarification, as this interviewer did. "Where is home?" would seem a logical question. If the person responded by saying, "the UK", I would understand that the person was referencing a specific group of Australians, namely the ones of British ancestry, and not Australians generally (surely, Aboriginal Australians would not consider the UK to be home).

If Helen Thomas wanted to make a point about the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, she could have easily done so. She could have said Israelis should get the hell out of Palestine and go back to Israel, or get back inside the 1967 borders, etc. Then there would have been no doubt what she was talking about.

When she said they should go home to Germany and Poland, it was no longer clear exactly who or what she was talking about. That is the part of the comments that to me are the most perplexing, and I am still eager to hear why you think she referenced Germany and Poland there as the "home" that they should go back to.

The follow-up question, which was: "So you're saying Jews should go back to Poland and Germany?" gave her an opportunity to clarify what she meant. If she was talking about Israelis generally and not Jews in particular, one would think she would correct the questioner who was, at this point, talking specifically about Jews.

In any case, I agree with President Obama's assessment of the incident - the comments were out of line, and its a shame because Helen Thomas has been such a respected journalist in Washington for so long. I also agree with Helen Thomas herself who said that she deeply regretted making the comments.

To my mind, bringing Poland and Germany into the exchange was where Helen Thomas crossed the line from criticism of the Israeli occupation to attacking the existence of Israel itself and the right of Jewish people who are not indigenous to the region (for instance those of German or Polish descent) to live there.

Can you respond to my question about what you think she meant when she referenced Germany and Poland?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #58
80. You still didn't answer the question I asked...
I asked you if you thought Helen Thomas' comments were anti-semitic. I didn't ask you to say who you agreed with on something I hadn't asked you about. See, I'm not sure at all how you could try to argue what yr arguing about her and then claim you don't think it's antisemitic...

I'm an Australian of British descent and when someone tells me to go back where I came from, that'd be Canley Vale in Sydney, not England. I imagine many Israelis of European or American descent would answer in a similar way if told to go back where they came from, but it's a real stretch to try to make out that comment is bigoted regardless of who it's aimed at. It's silly and not logical, but it's not bigoted.

I notice that yet again you ignore that she also mentioned the US. And that follow up 'question' was clearly an attempt by someone to put words in a flustered woman's mouth.

And it's worth mentioning again that I find yr desire to try to interpret what she actually said into being things she didn't say to be very strange coming from someone who usually insists on taking most everything else literally. She didn't mention Jews or Holocaust survivors, and I notice that despite you trying to correct pro-Palestinian posters on every little detail of everything and always taking everything literally, you didn't bother when it came to 'supporters' of Israel in this and other threads who insist she said something she didn't.

Can you respond to my question about what you think she meant when she referenced Germany and Poland?

Don't forget the US. As for what she meant when she referred to all three places, I'd say she meant what that person meant who said Australians should go back to England...

So, just to remind you of the question you haven't answered. Do you think Helen Thomas' comment was bigoted. Yes or no?


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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #80
89. I do think her comment was offensive
Edited on Sat Aug-07-10 07:59 AM by oberliner
I don't know if I'd call it bigoted or anti-semitic, but saying that people who live in Israel should 'go home' to another country is definitely out of line as far as I'm concerned. Naming Germany and Poland, in particular, as two such countries is especially disconcerting considering the historical associations between those two countries and the Jewish experience, specifically around the time of the foundation of the state of Israel. I still do not fully understand why she would have named those countries so readily in response to the question. That's part of why I keep asking people for possible interpretations.

That being said, a lot of well-respected people have made the occasional offensive comment or two. I do not think these comments should stand in the way of anyone honoring Helen Thomas for her impressive lifetime accomplishments.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. Do you think what that DUer said about Australians is offensive?
It's just that I get the sense the post I linked to doesn't bother you in the slightest, even though it's someone telling a nationality to go somewhere else...

You forgot to mention that she mentioned the US as well. How many times is that now? It's almost like you want the mention of the US totally erased, and knowing how fussy you are when it comes to details, I'll do the right thing and ensure that yr being factual and including the US as somewhere she mentioned. And I think I've mentioned this before, but just like there's Australians who's families came from Britain, there's Israelis whose families came from Germany, Poland and the US. I know there were a lot of German Jews who got out of Germany and ended up in Palestine, but I don't know which nationalities were the source of the greatest number of immigrants, and I'm absolutely sure Helen Thomas wouldn't have that information at her fingertips either when she got hounded and had words put in her mouth...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #90
94. I didn't forget to mention that she mentioned the US as well
Edited on Sat Aug-07-10 10:12 AM by oberliner
I deliberately did not mention it.

My question is about why she mentioned Germany and Poland, in particular. Those references were the ones that had overtones that the reference to America does not.

I would remind you that she introduced Germany and Poland into the conversation by saying:

"Remember, these people are occupied and it's their land. Not German and not Poland."

It was only because she was "hounded", as you put it, with additional questions that any reference to America was made. And this was not until after she had for the second time referenced Germany and Poland.

You seem to be acknowledging that she was talking specifically about Israeli Jews in particular and not Israelis generally (certainly not Israeli Arabs) with her remarks.

Edit to add: Yes, I think that comment you linked to about Australians is offensive.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. That's right. You deliberately omitted to mention part of what she'd said...
Most of the time when people deliberately omit part of what someone's said that if included puts a different slant on what was said, I consider it to be misleading and dishonest, not to mention that it's factually incorrect.

It was only because she was "hounded", as you put it, with additional questions that any reference to America was made.

She was hounded and interrupted. I've watched the video....

You seem to be acknowledging that she was talking specifically about Israeli Jews in particular and not Israelis generally (certainly not Israeli Arabs) with her remarks.

Don't put words in my mouth, Oberliner. She was talking about Israelis...

Edit to add: Yes, I think that comment you linked to about Australians is offensive.

Considering you added that as a ps after you'd already posted, even though it was the first question I asked you in the post you replied to, you clearly don't think it's offensive like it is when similar is said about Israelis. Why on earth would you find such a comment about Australians offensive?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #99
108. Thank you for the correction
I appreciate your insights into this discussion.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. As I appreciate yrs n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #108
120. You didn't answer the question I asked you...
I'll ask it again:

'Considering you added that as a ps after you'd already posted, even though it was the first question I asked you in the post you replied to, you clearly don't think it's offensive like it is when similar is said about Israelis. Why on earth would you find such a comment about Australians offensive?'

What I find kind of offensive is that you exert so much time and energy talking away about how offended you are when it's said about Israelis, but it's only a mere footnote to a post with a brief comment by you when it comes to other nationalities...
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
72. For the record, I think it would have been much more appropriate to create a Jewish state
In the Rhine Valley. This would have been legitimate retribution against those who caused the Holocaust, and, even if those people had HAD to leave, it would only have been a question of having them drive a few miles to a nearby town.

It would have avoided the ugly side-effect of creating a situation in which, effectively if not intentionally, Palestinians were punished for the crimes of Europeans.

Plus, this state would be selling some of the world's great wines-and who could object to that?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #72
93. I drank the most awesome wine on a Rhine cruise a few years back...
It was local stuff and so good I bought a bottle and brought it home.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #72
97. Israel was not established as "retribution against those who caused the Holocaust"
The Zionist movement began several decades prior for reasons unrelated to the Holocaust whose horrific nature probably could not have even been imagined at that point.


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #97
103. Israel was not established till after WWII ended...
When the Zionist movement began is irrelevent to what was said. The Holocaust most certainly did provide the impetus for Israel to be created during a time when decolonisation was happening elsewhere...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #103
110. Thank you for providing that information
It is very helpful.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. Always glad to be of assistance! n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #97
105. Yep, the League of Nations designated Israel as the Jewish homeland decades earlier. N/T
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #97
115. I know where it started.
Edited on Sat Aug-07-10 06:37 PM by Ken Burch
I'm talking about the event that made it happen. Without Hitler's butchery, it's very unlikely we'd have seen the establishment of Israel in 1948(and I don't call for the state's abolition, as far as that goes).

Before the rise of the Third Reich, Zionism had only minority support even among the world's Jewish communities(and even then only among the Ashkenazim-the Mizrahi were never interested in the concept).

My point was that, unlike the establishment of the state where it was established, establishing it in the Rhine Valley wouldn't have been an injustice to anyone.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Balfour Declaration of 1917
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Sadly, we will never know what would have happened had the Holocaust not taken place.

It certainly would have been better for all concerned if "Hitler's butchery" had never happened.

Though I do not agree with you that Israel would not exist were it not for the Holocaust if that is what you are suggesting.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. If it did exist,
It would have been obliged to take a very different approach in its treatment of the Arabs in the Mandate. And the situation would also have been improved by the fact that an Israel created in a non-Holocaust world would have been far less able to demonize those who raised legitimate criticisms of its actions by falsely likening them to antisemites and supporters of Naziism. This would have been to the good of the people of Israel as well, since any country will have a better political culture if that country is free of the "circle the wagons" mindset.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Perhaps hearing from your side of the "fence" will clarify
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 04:18 PM by azurnoir
From an Boston based "ProIsrael" blog called Solomonia it is from my comment #57

#3 Mark | June 4, 2010 4:32 PM | Reply

Hell'en "Judenrien" Thomas

Psuedo-Prez Obama is another Juderien Jew-hater wanting Judea and Samaria ethnically cleansed of Jews. If he wasn't, he'da more strongly condemned the Gaza blockade running militants.

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2010/06/video-hel... /


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. That link doesn't work, Az...
Mind you, after merely reading what you copied from it, I think I need to go and wash the slimey feeling off me, so it's probably a good thing the link didn't work...
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Yea I edited it the link works from the thread it was originally postd on
but not when I cut and paste it :shrug:
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Have you tried going to Properties and getting the url that way?
That's assuming yr using IEwhatever...
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Went back to the site and recopied the link it works now n/t
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Are you now cool with people calling you "Az" ?
You flipped out on another poster for doing so not too long ago.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. VC always has but ok I prefer Azur
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 05:36 PM by azurnoir
really I wish I had changed it back when there was a user name amnesty
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. What does the screen name mean exactly?
Just curious.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. well it was supposed to mean darkblue in French but it doesn't
I think more literal would be blackblue it was a Bush era thing
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #59
81. Did you consider that the other person may have been a complete wanker?
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 11:12 PM by Violet_Crumble
I've been friends with Az for a while, not that what I call Az is any of yr business...


on edit: I didn't mean that in a nasty way, but I really don't see what business it is of yrs what I refer to friends in this forum as...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #81
88. It was a total newbie to the forum
They were taken aback by the reaction as well. I don't think any harm was intended, and I don't recall them saying anything wankerish (though I cannot find the thread where the exchange occurred).

Anyway, I just wanted to know if it was ok with that poster to use that abbreviation or not for future reference.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #88
92. I certainly hope you don't lose any sleep over the whole thing!
As I've never yet seen you shorten another poster's name, it's great to see you letting yr hair down and considering doing it in future!

I'm guessing you don't see anything wankerish in being so fascinated in who Az allows to shorten her name? ;)
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. I lose sleep over why you use the abbreviation "yr"
That one still mystifies me.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. Have you sought professional counselling?
I really think you should if such minor things are bothering you so much. Anyway, why does it mystify you? I recall back the first time you asked, I told you why. Clearly yr losing so much sleep that you've forgotten, so maybe you should suggest the mods put a sticky up the top of the forum right under the guidelines so you won't forget in future?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #100
107. Yes, thank you for asking
Obviously, it's a long process.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. Don't you worry. I'm here to support you through that long journey! n/t
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. s/d
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 09:54 AM by oberliner
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. That is a lie. If someone lied to them and told them that
it would explain their problem with the museum.

Ari Fleischer spread that lie about Helen Thomas. She should sue anyone who continues to perpetrate it.

And good for the museum for honoring her.

Americans are getting pretty sick and tired of having some of the best voices in this country silenced.

It is shameful to use Holocaust survivors for this purpose and I can see from the huge amount of support Helen has received all over the world, that none of these faux pretend outrage stunts are having much effect anymore.

This kind of an attempt to manipulate people is disgusting.

Time for Muslims to start using the slaughter of over one million Iraqis and the torture and maiming and destruction of the lives of future generations that Helen was one of the few to try to publish the truth about and to stop.

She is a national treasure and I hope the museum will not be moved by this latest attempt to destroy an American icon.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
38. She was talking about illegal West Bank settlers, not Holocaust survivors in The Diaspora
Edited on Thu Aug-05-10 10:19 PM by Ken Burch
And a significant number of Holocaust survivors have DENOUNCED the Israeli government for the Occupation, and for invoking their suffering to justify letting the IDF inflict suffering on people who had nothing to do with the Holocaust(an atrocity, let us remember, for which no one but Europeans was ever to blame).

Helen Thomas is NOT an antisemite.
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Borderlineanarchist Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. She was NOT talking about West Bank Settlers, okay?
When she (ridiculously) asserted "It's not their land", the pronoun "it" referred not to the West Bank but to Israel. As in, ALL of Israel... or why else wouldn't she have mentioned Israel on the list of places "they" ought to consider going "home" to? She was more than happy to put Poland on there. And Germany. And the U.S.

...But not, strangely enough, the country closest to the West Bank.

Curious, no?

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Really did you ask her or what
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 03:21 PM by azurnoir
she said Palestine not Israel

oh but she's an Arab and we "all" know when an Arab any Arab says Palestine thy really mean Israel :sarcasm:

or is that you consider Palestine also known as Judea and Samaria as Israel?

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Borderlineanarchist Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. Read my post again...
Her nationality has nothing to do with it. It is insignificant. Her words, however, have EVERYTHING to do with it. They are VERY significant.

Helen Thomas advised those living on what is not "their land" to "go home" -- and when the videographer asked her what she meant by "home", she replied, Poland, Germany, the United States... but not -- strangely enough -- Israel. The country right next door.

So you see, there's really no need to ask her to explain herself. Her words are self-explanatory. When she said, "Get the hell out of Palestine," she wasn't saying "I want you out of the contested territories", she was saying, "I want you out of ISRAEL."

So please, let's quit participating in this fiction that there is anything ambiguous about what Helen Thomas said, or what she meant. There isn't. Like millions of other people, Helen Thomas -- correctly or not -- believes the country we now know as "Israel" was stolen and is therefore, by definition, being occupied illegally.


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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. Post # 51 with now working link n/t
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. What do you think she meant with the reference to Poland and Germany?
Why do you think she responded that way? What did she mean?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. I think it was a gottcha "interview"
the Rabbi walked up to her stuck a mike in her face and started asking questions Ms Thomas really did not have time to think about her answers and I believe he also used a well known to me anyways propaganda technique of saying Jews when asking about Israel or Israeli's
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Ok - fair enough - but what did she mean?
What do you think she was trying to communicate with the reference to Germany and Poland?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. I think those were the first 2 countries that came to mind n/t
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. Just two countries chosen at random?
Is there no particular reason you can think of why those countries, Germany and Poland, were the two to come to her mind?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. You've forgotten again. She also mentioned the US...
And as I doubt she was using an order of merit or anything, I fail to see what yr excuse further upthread that the US was an afterthought coz she listed it third has to do with anything...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. The only two countries she names in response to the question "Where's home?" are Poland and Germany
She adds "America and everywhere else" only after the questioner says back to her "So you're saying Jews should go back to Poland and Germany?"

A few moments earlier she brings up Poland and Germany (exclusively) when she says "It's their land - not German and not Poland."

Again, I ask why Germany and Poland were even introduced into the exchange by Helen Thomas in the first place.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #87
91. Thanks for admitting she also said the US...
You also forgot to mention that the 'interviewer' was cutting her off before she was finishing what she was saying. She said the US and I consider it quite dishonest and misleading for anyone to make out she didn't or to omit it because it doesn't suit their argument...

Again, I ask why Germany and Poland were even introduced into the exchange by Helen Thomas in the first place.

Why don't you email her and ask her? I'm not sure what you think yr achieving, apart from a bit of dramatic flourish, by aiming the same incomplete (you omitted the US) question repeatedly at me...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #91
96. I posted a verbatim transcript of the exchange
Edited on Sat Aug-07-10 11:41 AM by oberliner
My question is about why she mentioned Germany and Poland, in particular. It is not an "incomplete" question - those are the two countries whose reference puzzles me.

She referenced Germany and Poland initially and exclusively. She only added America in response to a follow up (as can be seen in the video).

The question that I have is not about her reference to America.

If someone said, people who want to be healthy should eat more donuts, cookies, and vegetables, it would be reasonable to ask why they would recommend eating donuts and cookies while not asking about the vegetables part.

And I am asking posters here who have indicated that they do not believe she was talking about Jews in particular for their understanding of what the reference to Germany and Poland was all about.

It is to help me understand how those posters made sense of her remarks.

Numerous liberals have made note of the troubling nature of those particular references.

See these comments from Michael Tomasky:

Now I know a lot of you are going to say well, she only said what's factually true about the land, but she didn't only say that. It's that Germany and Poland business. Without that, these remarks wouldn't have been nearly as controversial as they are. And those were really terrible things to say (while kind of laughing, as if it were a joke; check out the video).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. Yr also posting repeatedly making out she only mentioned two countries...
She mentioned the US, yet you admit further upthread that you deliberately omitted any mention of the US. That really is misleading, and knowing what a stickler for detail you are, I will be pointing out that she mentioned the US as well every time you deliberately omit that.

She referenced Germany and Poland initially and exclusively. She only added America in response to a follow up (as can be seen in the video).

She did NOT exclusively mention Germany and Poland. I have watched the video and she also mentioned the US. She was hounded and interrupted, and then she said the US. It really is quite petty of anyone to carry on about the order she got things out in...

The question that I have is not about her reference to America.

Why not?


And I am asking posters here who have indicated that they do not believe she was talking about Jews in particular for their understanding of what the reference to Germany and Poland was all about.

I've already answered you, but you don't seem interested. What I find strange is that yr so intent on omitting things she said in order to make out she was referring to Jews, not Israelis, but then on the other hand claim you don't think it was anti-semitic. How could it not be? I'd really be curious to see yr explanation...

It is to help me understand how those posters made sense of her remarks.

I doubt you want to understand, or else you would have taken on board my answer when I replied...

Numerous liberals have made note of the troubling nature of those particular references.

Silly? Yes. Lacking in logic? Yes. Troubling? No.

btw, saying numerous liberals agree with you isn't a very effective debate technique. After all, numerous liberals don't think it was troubling, and one can find 'numerous liberals' that will agree with anything, as liberals aren't a group of people who all agree on things...








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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. In this particular subthread I was asking Az about the remarks
You jumped in here in response to a question I asked of Az.

Hopefully that poster can take a moment to answer my question if they choose to do so.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. I corrected you on yr deliberate omission of the US...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you aimed this post at me?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. Thank you so much for your help
However, my question was only about the two countries I indicated.

I wanted to know why she mentioned the two countries of Poland and Germany.

I never claimed that no other countries were mentioned and, in fact, I posted the entire exchange word for word upthread.

My question is not: why did she only name Poland and Germany? That question would certainly need to be corrected, because it is factually inaccurate.

My question is: why did she bring up Poland and Germany at all?

I think if she hadn't done so, there would have been a different reaction.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #118
121. That's okay. I'll keep on helping you out so people aren't misled about what countries she mentioned
However, my question was only about the two countries I indicated.

I wanted to know why she mentioned the two countries of Poland and Germany.


Why only two countries? And as I told you already, but you chose to ignore, if you want to know *why* someone said something, it's preferable to ask them. Not unless yr just interested in a bit of gossip and insinuation and stuff, and then what you do is you ask other people why the person said something.


I never claimed that no other countries were mentioned and, in fact, I posted the entire exchange word for word upthread.

My question is not: why did she only name Poland and Germany? That question would certainly need to be corrected, because it is factually inaccurate.


Was that my imagination where you posted that she exclusively mentioned Poland and Germany? I could have sworn I saw you do that in this thread...



I think if she hadn't done so, there would have been a different reaction.

Yeah, that disapproving gasp, accompanied by 'have you got a better answer than that?' when she said Israel should get out of Palestine would have totally vanished if she hadn't said Israelis should go home to Germany, Poland, the US and everywhere else! ;)
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #79
98. Why do YOU think she chose them obviously you have somthing in mind
Edited on Sat Aug-07-10 03:13 PM by azurnoir
I really have no idea the entire conversation took place in less than 1 minute and now over 2 months later it's easy to analyze it and say why this or that, also why do you seem to forget to mention that she also said America and everywhere else yes it was the second time he asked but he cut her off the first time

ETA had Ms Thomas previously made antisemitic comments?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. Why are some of you making it out as though the person who did the video is to blame? N/T
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #101
114. I don't know, why do think that is? seeing as how your speaking for Oberliner
Edited on Sat Aug-07-10 06:27 PM by azurnoir
can you answer my questions especially in light of post #51
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #98
117. I am honestly somewhat puzzled by the remarks
Edited on Sat Aug-07-10 07:30 PM by oberliner
Maybe she meant that since the Jews who founded the state of Israel were essentially outsiders escaping places like Germany and Poland that they have no business being in Israel/Palestine especially at the expense of the indigenous population.

I am very much open to the possibility that there are other interpretations as to what she meant.

I am not aware of any antisemitic comments that Helen Thomas has made in the past.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. If she meant West Bank settlers, why did she say Poland and Germany?
As I wrote to another poster:

If Helen Thomas wanted to make a point about the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, she could have easily done so. She could have said Israelis should get the hell out of Palestine and go back to Israel, or get back inside the 1967 borders, etc. Then there would have been no doubt what she was talking about.

What do you make of the Poland and Germany reference?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. I think she was goaded and said something she didn't mean
And she did start by saying "get out of Palestine".

I mean...come on now...Helen's in her eighties...if she actually had been an antisemite, wouldn't there have been SOME manifestation of that before now?

The person who was questioning her is a provocateur and was trying to make her say something bad. And he knew how to get what he wanted.

I wish she hadn't said that(she clearly wishes the same) but it's an example of a person being goaded and hounded into stepping in it. We've all had our parents say something about us that they didn't mean when they were pushed past a certain point.

But Helen Thomas is clearly not an antisemite. And she did nothing to deserve being treated as if she was now the Hitler of the White House Press Corps.

That's my take on the whole thing.

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. OK
I do feel that her reference to Germany and Poland is confusing and, at the very least, opens up the possibility that she was talking about something a lot more than just West Bank settlers.

I would reiterate that I completely support any attempts to honor Helen Thomas for her outstanding career; however, I think that people are justified in finding those particular comments of her to be offensive. She herself has expressed deep regret for making them.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. And I'd agree that it was confusing that she said "Germany and Poland"
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 07:30 PM by Ken Burch
She should have said "Crown Heights", since the craziest settler-types always seem to be Yanks who have showed up for the land grab(their American ancestry is doubly disturbing, since it makes you wonder if, on another level, they're trying to get in touch with their inner Kit Carson and have somehow confused Zionism with Manifest Destiny). To me, this mistake on her part further validates my conviction that she said something she didn't mean under intense goading from a provocateur.

And she should also have been aware that it's only Jewish people from Europe and North America who have, at the present, some other "home" to go to. However it was that they ended up in Israel(and this is problematic, since before 1948 there was almost no such thing as a Mizrahi Zionist)Mizrahim in Israel are pretty much stuck where they are.
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Borderlineanarchist Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Goaded?
First of all, she wasn't "goaded" at all. The dude with the camera said something like, "Hey, Helen. Whattaya think of the celebration here?" and off she went. Second of all, being "goaded" is not the same thing as being "tricked". If Helen had been tricked -- somehow -- don't ask me how -- then perhaps we could make some allowances for her. But all that happened that day was that a woman who had a camera stuck in her face announced with very little prompting that "they" needed to "get the hell out of Palestine" and "go home" -- back to Germany, Poland, and America (but not, pointedly, to Israel).

Feel free to agree with her if you want to, Ken. It's pretty clear from your innumerable postings about Israel that you've got no problem whatsoever with ump-teen Islamic countries being in the region (and how many were there at last count?) but you do NOT believe that one tiny Jewish state should be there.

Can't have that, now, can we, Ken? Nosirree.

A dozen Muslim states? No problem.

One Jewish state? Fuck you.

Sounds fair to me.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. I don't object to "One Jewish state"
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 07:43 PM by Ken Burch
I object to the collective punishment of the Palestinian people. None of the things I've spoken out against(the Occupation, the Siege of Gaza, the checkpoints, the Israel control of the Palestinian water supply, the destruction of the olive groves)are essential to preserving "One Jewish State".

BTW, it's not as if anything the Israeli government does has any real connection to "Jewishness", so I'm not sure that state is entitled to call itself "The Jewish State". It's just another government, really.

And an actual anarchist would NEVER accept that one nation had the right to subjugate another nation, as the IDF does to Palestinians. Emma Goldman wouldn't. Alexander Berkman wouldn't. Howard Zinn(who wrote a play about Emma, among his other achievements)didn't. Noam Chomsky doesn't. So please stop calling yourself an anarchists. Anarchists don't defend military occupations.
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Borderlineanarchist Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. I'm a BORDERLINE anarchist, Ken
If I were a full-on anarchist I would've dropped the "Borderline" by now.

And let's not pretend anymore: You do not believe Israel should exist where it is as a Jewish country. This is not me reading your mind, Ken. You've SAID as much. You believe in a one-state solution that has, as its basis, a Muslim majority (inevitable given the demographics of the area) that would ensure Israel's Jewish identity would be gone within a generation.

Jews would be reduced to Dhimmi status (now cue Ken Burch to assert with a straight face that Dhimitude is a "code word" -- implying Dhimitude as the West understands it doesn't really exist)

But here's an inconvenient truth even YOU will have a hard time denying, Ken:

If Israel's neighbors disarmed tomorrow -- if they beat their swords into plowshares -- Israel would do nothing. She would NOT move against them.

If Israel disarmed tomorrow, she'd be obliterated.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. OK...you've outed yourself with this one...
You're an "all Arabs/Muslims are Jew-hating psychopaths" type.

And you're not above misrepresenting my views.

I support a two-state solution. At present, I really don't think a one-state solution would work, largely because the enmity between both polities is two deep.

However, if the Israeli government keeps building settlements, it's making it harder and harder for that solution to remain viable. The more that that government appeases the neo-fascist settler movement, the less and less possible its going to be for a two-state solution to have a chance. It's certainly never going to be possible to have a "two-state solution"(a solution the Israeli governments of all parties always implacably opposed prior to 1994)if the Israeli government is going to insist that the Palestinians settle for "what we'll give them"(which, leaving the settlements in place, would obviously be a pathetic sliver of completely useless land).

If YOU want Israel's "Jewish identity" to survive, you need to be demanding that all West Bank settlements be removed, that Palestinians be given control over their own water supply, and that collective punishment and harassment of Palestinians by the IDF and the settlers be ended.

THAT is the only way to get a two-state solution. A two-state solution requires Palestinians to get ALL the West Bank, plus Gaza, with East Jerusalem as a capital. It goes without saying that no Palestinian state smaller than that could ever be viable.

I don't defend the concept of "dhimmitude"(nor do I think it's a "cool word").

But you're being paranoid to insist that Arabs and Muslims are incapable of treating Jews as equal human beings(a view that you do appear to hold). Of COURSE they can treat Jews as equals. Anyone can treat anyone else as an equal. Your problem is that you don't accept that Arabs and Muslims are capable of behaving as decent, civilized human beings.


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. They're not going to be replying anytime soon...
Check their profile...
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. Not surprising...
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 11:02 PM by Ken Burch
He went too far even for I/P.

I'm really not sure why my post about Helen sent him off the deep end.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. It's a safe bet they were banned based on something they posted upstairs...
They were posting a fair bit up there and the I/P mods aren't around today at all, not that they would have banned the poster for anything it had said in this forum. After all, there's a few regulars who've said worse and survived...
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Being put in a death camp and seeing all your relatives murdered makes you an idiot?
That is the most offensive and vile statement I've seen her in a while.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. So surviving the holocaust makes a person incapable of being an idiot?
Edited on Thu Aug-05-10 11:56 AM by Frank Booth
That, frankly, is idiotic.

Just like anyone else, a holocaust survivor is deserving of their own opinion, and deserving of criticism when they say something stupid, like this.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Calling holocaust survivors complete idiots appears to be a blanket attack against a group.
Individuals can be and are complete idiots. Your statement attacked an entire group. That is against the rules here at DU. And in attacking a complete group, Holocaust survivors, you words appear to show a willingness to attack people in a biased and vicious manner.

Your comments appear to be both biased and idiotic.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You honestly believe the person was attacking all holocaust survivors?
:eyes:

As I'm sure you understand, the poster called the people making the statements idiots, because they said something idiotic. No different from how people here call the Palins idiots because they say idiotic things.

Nice try with the histrionics, though.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I see his comment was removed
Some others also saw the bias in his comments.

No histrionics were involved.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. That doesn't mean they were talking about all survivors...
btw, just so we're clear when you hit that alert button this time, I'm not referring to all Holocaust survivors, but I think the members of that group in the OP are idiots. Whether they're idiots out of ignorance or wilfully, it doesn't matter to me. And just like any other group, Holocaust survivors and their descendents would include idiots and twits. Not sure why you seem to think otherwise...
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. Sorry, this is an idiotic move by this particular group
Helen Thomas is a highly renowned journalist with a very illustrious career, and she is of Lebanese background. She certainly deserves a place in this museum. People who fall for the ACORN Pimp / Breitbar school of Borat Journalism - as this group has - kind of deserves the title of "idiot."
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sodom Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. your statement is whats offensive and vile
zionists immigrating to palestine prior, during, and in the aftermath of wwII caused nothing but violence and suffering for the people who lived there. they stole and murdered and created the nation of israel ontop of war, of bloodshed and pain. surviving the holocaust doesnt give anyone the right to murder and steal, and it doesnt give them a blank check to say or do anything without criticism.

many dont like that helen thomas spoke truth to power, and many more dont even like that she had an opinion, let alone that she spoke her opinion freely...whats ironic is that the group claims it is worried that "American values are at stake..."

freedom doesnt seem to be an american value anymore
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
40. Hang around, you'll see worse.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. Can we help with push back on this?
I find it unfathomable that we would allow any group to dismiss Helen's long and laudable career and to paint her as antisemitic based on one statement born out of frustration at the long unresolved situation with respect to the Palestinians.

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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Push back? So Holocaust suriviros don't have a right to their opinion? n/t
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. they have a right to their opinion, not to determine the policy
of the founders of this museum. Balance, Ozy, balance. That is what I am calling for.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. The balance is already there...
The museum wants to put up a statue of Helen Thomas. Holocaust survivors want to protest putting up a statue because they feel she made antisemitic statements and in so doing showed herself to be an antisemitic racist. Why a push back against people who are stating their opinion? You can disagree with their opinion without feeling a need to push back.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Pushing back against their exploitation of a misunderstanding
Edited on Thu Aug-05-10 11:55 AM by hlthe2b
As already demonstrated by at least one on this thread who misquoted what Thomas said, this issue is ripe for exploitation and that is what this group is doing, no matter how sympathetic most of us are to their sensitivities. I advocate pushing back against any group who is exploiting based on half truths or misunderstandings. And, NO, I do not take your expression as fact that her statement shows her to be a "antisemitic racist."
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. These Holocaust survivors can listen to Helen Thomas' statements
as can we. They can, after hearing what she said, form an opinion about an aspect of her Character.

I don't mean to get off the subject, but I listened several times to her remarks. They showed a breadth of ignorance or a depth of preconceived notions that is regrettable. Helen Thomas is a ground breaking reporter, a great woman, a woman who spoke truth to power, a woman whose life should be celebrated. I also think that she is a racist Antisemitic. I think that this museum has very right on earth to put up a statue of her because of the great things she did in other aspects of her life. I think the attacks on holocaust survivors by the way the story was spun and in this thread are wrong.

Simply because they formed a different opinion than you from listening to the evidence doesn't mean that they must be pushed back.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Re:
They have a right to their opinion, but not to dictate to others. I give great deference to holocaust survivors in terms of their sensitivities and moral high ground, as have most in this country for more than 65 years. But, their assumptions IMO are quite wrong when it comes to Ms. Thomas. Ms. Thomas expressed frustration at the Israeli governmental policies towards the Palestinians and the lack of movement in terms of stopping illegal settlements that serve only to intensify tensions and to do nothing in terms of advancing any positive long term solution. She is not alone in this opinion, as majorities in recent polls have shown, including those that show the majority of Americans fault Israel for the flotilla attack. There are those who equate criticism of Israel with antisemitism, a stance fostered by the American RW, but one so disingenuous that it no longer plays with most Americans.

I appreciate your ability to look at Helen Thomas in a more comprehensive way. Yet, I disagree vehemently that her unfortunate statement-- repeated constantly out of context-- reflects true antisemitism. I look at a person's patterns, especially with one so long-lived and with such a long career. I find nothing about her history and actions over her lifetime and career that would validate such a dismissive opinion of her as her most ardent detractors put forth.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Agreed.
I think that the museum has the right to put up a statue; but others have the right to express their opinions about it.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. You are the ONLY poster who is advocating a particular group not express its opinion.
Ironic.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Sure they do. Just as people who disagree with them do. n/t
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Publicity stunt
How is it "immoral"?
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Ticonderoga Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. The crimes of Israel towards humanity are much more
disturbing than the words of Helen Thomas.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Holocaust survivors did not commit crimes...n/t
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Ticonderoga Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Really?
And you know this how?
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Holocaust survivors lived through one of the worst attempts in history...
to eradicate an entire people. They survived along with Gays, Gypsies, any one else who was not approved of.

So would you consider surviving mass murder a crime? And would that have been a crime for gay people and gypsies who survived on only Jews?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Individual holocaust survivors, like any individuals, may have sometimes committed crimes
Edited on Thu Aug-05-10 12:58 PM by LeftishBrit
But 'holocaust survivors' as an collective entity have *not* committed crimes.

A state such as Israel or America or the UK or Russia or Iran may commit crimes, and frequently does. But 'holocaust survivors' are not a state. Most Israelis nowadays are not holocaust survivors (not old enough - and only about half of Israeli Jews are of Europaean descent anyway); and many holocaust survivors are not Israelis.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. Shame on them. Helen deserves the love and respect. n/t
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Shame on Holocaust survivors...for what reason? n/t
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. No, just this particular organization, Ozy
And for their mindless - dare I say idiotic? - stance on this subject.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
33. since we are talking about holocaust survivors - here is the point of view of an Auschwitz survivor
on the issue of Palestine, Dr. Hajo Meyer:

Auschwitz Survivor on Palestine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSlFR541Uoo



Obviously holocaust survivors are not monolithic in their opinions about anything whether Helen Thomas, Israel, Palestine or anything else.


.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-05-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Thanks for posting that, Douglas n/t
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
41. So now the irrational denouncing of a Lebanese Xtian journalist by some obscure US org gets moved
to I/P. W.T.F. !!! There is some sickness here.

No news about Israel. None about Palestine. No Israeli mentioned, No Muslim involved. Some agitated Jews, sure. You'll find some more on the so-called 9/11 mosque threads, even some muslims. But this gets dungeoned by some or many mods. There is a disease here.

I guess this is the way the DU admins add their Happy Birthday to one the last few honest journalists.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. It's moved here specifically because things here can't get recced
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Borderlineanarchist Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. Still new to DU
What does "recced" stand for/mean?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-06-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Well, they've got to keep GD and LBN clear for the Big News...
Edited on Fri Aug-06-10 03:07 PM by Violet_Crumble
I'm sure some Entertainment Tonight style news about Lindsay Lohan or some other celebrity is on the horizon, or a photo contest or two (I know you and I disagree on the value of those), or maybe even someone coming along with a thread like: '@@@****@@@@I HATE IT WHEN DUERS START NEW THREADS ABOUT NOTHING TRYING TO SEEK ATTENTION. REC THIS IF U AGREE!!!@@@***@@@' is going to be allocated the valuable slot a pointless and fluff story like Helen Thomas would waste! After all, everyone knows there's only limited space in the big forums! ')
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #47
86. "Yeah. That's the ticket!"
If there was more than zero chance of getting an answer to "Why?" I'm confident it would sound rather like that. As for the US-centric cultural reference in the heading, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night_Live_charac...
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howaboutme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-10 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
104. I respect Helen Thomas
not for what she said, as a 90 year old woman with a very long and respected career, on a hot day when a microphone was jammed in her face by a celebrity hungry "I want my 15 minutes of fame" opportunist media whore (ala Michaele Salahi - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/michaele-salah... ), but by her career where she was never afraid to take on our leaders about their actions against the interests of the USA people and by asking non-politically correct questions that would never ever reward her with more dollars from the media establishment.

This episode (and it still continues) was about a shot fired over the bow of reporters not to ever disrupt the system.

Here is an example

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2010/08/...

HT is not making waves as this article suggested. The wave makers are this one issue group.
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