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grassfed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 05:50 PM
Original message
Talk to Hamas - IDF soldiers speak out
The Israeli media marked the one-year anniversary of Operation Cast Lead, the war on Gaza, almost as a celebration. The operation is recognised almost unanimously in Israel as a military triumph, a combat victory over one of Israel's deadliest enemies: Hamas.

As combat soldiers of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF), we have serious doubts about this conclusion, primarily because hardly any combat against Hamas took place during the operation. As soon as the operation started, Hamas went underground.

Most casualties were inflicted on Palestinians by air strikes, artillery fire, and snipers from afar. Combat victory? Shooting fish in a barrel is more like it. Operation Cast Lead consisted essentially of bombing one of the most crowded places on earth, striking civilian targets such as homes, schools and mosques, and ultimately leaving a trail of more than 1,300 casualties, mostly civilians, over 300 of whom were children. As soldiers of the IDF reserves, we bow our heads in shame against this hideous attack on a civilian population.

As for the goals of the operation, these too are questionable. Allegedly, operation Cast Lead was intended to stop the firing of missiles by Hamas. But the Qassam missile problem had been solved before the operation started. The ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel in place from 19 June 2008 had resulted in a drastic reduction of missiles fired from Gaza from a few hundreds per month to about a dozen for a period of five months. It was Israel that never lived up to its end of the bargain to end the siege of Gaza, breached the ceasefire in November 2008 by attacking targets in the Strip, essentially ignored Hamas's proposal to renew the ceasefire, and eventually began operation Cast Lead a few weeks later.

more http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/15/ham...

courage to refuse http://www.couragetorefuse.org/English/default.asp
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Talking to terrorists is never the answer
I fear that many young Israelis may be falling into a trap set up by Hamas.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Why not?
What does one lose by talking to terrorists? One could learn something, one could make deals, what does one lose?
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You lose credibility and give comfort to the enemy.
Hamas exists to destroy the state of Israel.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You are aware that train of thought has been challenged?
Edited on Mon Feb-15-10 06:35 PM by Jefferson23
snip* Petraeus also came out unambiguously in his talk at Heritage for opening communications with Americas adversaries, a position McCain is attacking Obama for endorsing. Citing his Iraq experience, Petraeus said, You have to talk to enemies. He added that it was necessary to have a particular goal for discussion and to perform advance work to understand the motivations of his interlocutors.
http://washingtonindependent.com/11381/petraeus


"You lose credibility and give comfort to the enemy." Sounds like a very strong RW talking point, I'm not sure what credibility you imagine would be lost, although you might lose your screaming meme if you engage your enemy.
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Why don't we have a discussion with Bin Laden then?
If we promised not to arrest and execute him why don't we have a videoconference with him and his top brass.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. That is your response?
What makes you think Bin Laden wants to talk to the U.S., you know something I don't?

Hamas would speak to Israel, but I think you already knew that when you replied.
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Hamas will not abide by the preconditions
They have stated that they refuse to recognize Israel and they refuse to quit shooting Qassam rockets into their territory.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Israel needs a terrorist group to acknowledge them in order to speak them them, why?
Edited on Mon Feb-15-10 06:51 PM by Jefferson23

Are you saying that Hamas never kept their part of a cease fire?
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Hamas broke the cease fire during the Summer 2006 war
They are responsible for thousands of deaths on both sides of the border.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Would it be a fair statement for me to say that for you, the primary
responsibility in the conflict is Hamas?
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Of course, there is no question about that
Israel has every right to defend herself against those in the ME who wish her wiped from the pages of time.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I was not questioning Israel's right to defend herself. I was asking you
if you believed Hamas is primarily responsible for the conflict.

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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yes
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I thought that was Hezbollah?
Hamas is in Gaza?
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Right. Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Judea and Samaria.
Both terrorist groups
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. But the 2006 war was with Hezbollah in Lebanon, not Hamas?
Hezbollah snatched some Israeli troops? Not Hamas? Do you equate Hamas and Hezbollah?
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Don Caballero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yes I do equate both groups.
Hezbollah is certainly the bigger threat due to their allegiance with the Shias in Iran, but Hamas operates within Judea and Samaria.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Ah, thank you for explaining.
Edited on Mon Feb-15-10 07:44 PM by bemildred
I thought it was Hezbollah that started the 2006 war, but if they are the same, who cares?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. lol
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. FYI
The 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war left more than 1,000 Lebanese, mostly civilians, dead.

About 160 Israelis, including 119 soldiers, also died in the fighting.

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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-16-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Bwah
You just made my day. I'm astounded by the ignorance in that post.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. Don, thank you so much for providing so much laughter and hilarity!
Yr by far the funniest thing I've read in this forum for a long time. I did wonder for a few seconds if you were for real, but if you were, that'd just make the whole thing even funnier...
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stranger81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Judea & Samaria, huh?
So what claim, if any, do you think Palestinians have to the land you call Judea & Samaria? Just curious where you stand.
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grassfed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Judea and Samaria... Hasbara sheker
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-16-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. No...
I think if he was actively interested in the conflict, he would probably know that the 2006 war was with Hezbollah. Moreover, he would also know that Hamas primarily operates in Gaza, rather than the West Bank (or Judea and Samaria, if you prefer).

To top it off, our friend Don has apparently posted 800 times in these forums without appearing here much. So I would assume that he has a relatively casual interest in the conflict.

What is interesting, then, is not that these are the views of a die-hard Kahanist but rather that these are the views of a man on the street, so to speak.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-16-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Judea and Samaria?
Where do you get your info from? Israel National News?
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. What are the borders of Judea and Samaria?
Can you show us a current map of those regions?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-16-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Hamas is?
I'm no fan of Hamas, but they are not directly responsible for anything connected with the Lebanon war. Are you confusing them with Hezbollah?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. So I'm losing credibility here and giving you comfort? nt
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-16-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Maybe, but I don't think the Palestinians really have any other option...
NT
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-16-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Well, we know the Israelis certainly don't...
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Of course they do.
Even if you believe that every single Palestinian in a position of power is a terrorist, the fact remains that Israel could - and very easily, at that - make peace unilaterally, without the need for any negotiation, simply by withdrawing to its own borders and ending the siege of Gaza (although I think negotiating before doing so would probably make things go more smoothly).
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. They do not.
Even if you believe every Israeli in a position of power is a terrorist, a unilateral move would not solve anything (see Gaza).
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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. "Talking to terrorists is never the answer"
Well it worked in northern ireland
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